NBA Season 2020 - RIP Mamba

[Wilbur]

8 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

No Isaiah, no Olajawon, gtfo with that list.

Hakeem Olajuwon was not a US citizen, so he wouldn't qualify in 1988, same as he didn't qualify in 1992.

Isiah Thomas isn't necessary on a squad that already has Mo Cheeks and Magic Johnson.

On the personal level, Isiah Thomas was disliked by influential members of this squad - Bird, Jordan, McHale, Moses, Barkley, Worthy - none of those guys wants to play with him in 1988.  And Pat Riley, who is the likely coach of the team, isn't a fan of Isiah the person, either, though he admired his technical skills.

[DanteGabriel]

It's easy to believe all those guys disliked Isiah, but my understanding was that it was mostly Jordan saying he wouldn't share the court with Isiah. At that point the Bulls and Pistons were the rising contenders in the East and division rivals as well, so it was easy to buy that explanation.

[Wilbur]

In 1987 Isiah Thomas said in an interview that Larry Bird "would be just another good guy" if he wasn't white, and he said that McHale was a dirty player in the same interview, which was rich coming from the Pistons.  The room I was in watching that interview exploded with laughter at that assertion.  Later Thomas tried to walk it back, and Bird was gracious about it, but there is no doubt that Bird was not going to put any effort into having Thomas on his teams.

In the 1988 series, James Worthy and Pat Riley wouldn't let Thomas use any of the Lakers' medical supplies to tape up his ankles.  This was a different time, before the era of the Banana Boat, when for example the Celtics-Sixer pre-season games regularly ended in brawls, and yet everyone reserved a special distaste for Thomas and the Pistons and their dirty play.  No way Thomas makes the team.

[Argonath Diver]

On a somewhat similar note, saw a clip of a Bill Laimbeer interview a few days ago where he mentioned LeBron as the clear GOAT, among other very Laimbeer-ish stuff. People ran with it. You could practically feel the animosity of Jordan coming off him, and this is twenty five years later. Not everyone gets along, current players or retired. (And I don't mind that one bit)

[DanteGabriel]

3 hours ago, Argonath Diver said:

On a somewhat similar note, saw a clip of a Bill Laimbeer interview a few days ago where he mentioned LeBron as the clear GOAT, among other very Laimbeer-ish stuff. People ran with it. You could practically feel the animosity of Jordan coming off him, and this is twenty five years later. Not everyone gets along, current players or retired. (And I don't mind that one bit)

I prefer the NBA the old way. As much as people dislike whatever unpopular players now, you could really hate a guy like Laimbeer.

[DireWolfSpirit]

2 hours ago, Triskele said:

let me display my staggering ignorance.  I am a huge Blazer fan but I was quite young here, and really the first season that I remember is Blazers v. Pistons.  

That said, are you seriously telling me that Mo Cheeks was still this legit in 1988?

Even if you freeze out a clearly superior Thomas "cuz reasons", how does John Stockton fall below Maurice Cheeks?

[BigFatCoward]

40 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Even if you freeze out a clearly superior Thomas "cuz reasons", how does John Stockton fall below Maurice Cheeks?

13 pts 8 assists versus 14.7 pts 13.8 assists is pretty clear. Stockton was second team that year, it's not even close. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

It's easy to believe all those guys disliked Isiah, but my understanding was that it was mostly Jordan saying he wouldn't share the court with Isiah. At that point the Bulls and Pistons were the rising contenders in the East and division rivals as well, so it was easy to buy that explanation.

Yeah, I've always read Jordan saying it was him or me, and everyone knew who to take. What I've never seen was did Jordan hate him personally or was Jordan just offended by the way the Pistons in general fouled the living shit out of him to win their titles. 

A team of Magic, Jordan, Bird, Barkley and Kareem destroys just about everyone.
 

3 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

13 pts 8 assists versus 14.7 pts 13.8 assists is pretty clear. Stockton was second team that year, it's not even close. 

On a super team, you take Stockton, even if IT was the better player. He'd be a lot easier to fit into a role within the team's structure.

Which always makes me wonder how Mel is actually our greatest international champion. He was always so selfish in the NBA, but outside of that the guy would do just about anything to help his team win. Still leaves one wondering what could have been if he didn't just go for the monster contract. He was always the one meant to be the third wheel in the big three instead of Bosh, but he signed his deal a year early.

[BigFatCoward]

22 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Yeah, I've always read Jordan saying it was him or me, and everyone knew who to take. What I've never seen was did Jordan hate him personally or was Jordan just offended by the way the Pistons in general fouled the living shit out of him to win their titles. 

A team of Magic, Jordan, Bird, Barkley and Kareem destroys just about everyone.
 

On a super team, you take Stockton, even if IT was the better player. He'd be a lot easier to fit into a role within the team's structure.

Which always makes me wonder how Mel is actually our greatest international champion. He was always so selfish in the NBA, but outside of that the guy would do just about anything to help his team win. Still leaves one wondering what could have been if he didn't just go for the monster contract. He was always the one meant to be the third wheel in the big three instead of Bosh, but he signed his deal a year early.

Surely by 88 Kareem wasnt the premier centre? Ewing would have been the best player for the team. 

I was comparing Stockton to Mo Cheeks not IT. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I was comparing Stockton to Mo Cheeks. 

Fair enough. 

[Rhom]

5 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

A team of Magic, Jordan, Bird, Barkley and Kareem destroys just about everyone.

“Just about”?!!!?  

In 1988, what international team gets within 50 of them?!!!?  It’d be worse than 92.

[Wilbur]

In 1987-1988, John Stockton had just had his first season of outstanding play, whereas Mo Cheeks had been outstanding throughout the decade.  But either one of them would have been good point guards to spell Magic.  Both of them looked to provide for their primary scorers, but Mo had more experience with playing alongside superstar scorers.

For me, the key success factor for the 1988 team would be to provide scoring opportunities and distribute the ball among the primary scorers.  Johnson, Cheeks, and Stockton all played in teams with primary scorers, while they themselves were not the primary scorers.  (They all could score at will, but for the good of the team, they provided for their teammates.) The Pistons were organized around Isiah Thomas as the primary scorer, so he isn't a good fit for this team based on his normal manner of play in comparison with these others.

Second, Cheeks and Johnson had almost a decade of playing with the big names of the NBA, while Stockon in 1988 did not yet have the sort of experience of teammates of this caliber.  Consider these teammates from the 1980s for each of the point guards:

Magic => Bob McAdoo, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Jamaal Wilkes, Norm Nixon, Michael Cooper, Swen Nater, Byron Scott, A.C Green, Maurice Lucas, Mychal Thompson

Cheeks => Doug Collins, Lionel Hollins, Ralph Simpson, Caldwell Jones, Moses Malone, Marc Iavaroni, Darryl Dawkins, Bobby Jones, Bob McAdoo, Andrew Toney, Julius Erving, World B. Free, Charles Barkley, Gerald Henderson, Mike Gminski

Stockton => Thurl Bailey, Darryl Dawkins, Marc Iavaroni, Karl Malone, Kelly Tripucka

Thomas => Vinnie Johnson, Kelly Tripucka, Joe Dumars, Adrian Dantley, Darryl Dawkins

If I am Pat Riley in 1988, I prefer Mo Cheeks to John Stockton because of his long experience of playing successfully and winning championships with big egos.

By 1992, Stockton had earned the spot on the actual Dream Team, but his consistent, outstanding performance after 1987 wasn't obvious in 1988.

[Wilbur]

Also, the team must wear these blue uniforms, and Bird needs to be tanned and sport the flowing golden mullet.

 

[Slurktan]

On 4/16/2020 at 12:02 PM, Rhom said:

“Just about”?!!!?  

In 1988, what international team gets within 50 of them?!!!?  It’d be worse than 92.

The Soviets.  Sabonis was awesome before injuries took his legs away and he came to the NBA.

[Wilbur]

40 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

The Soviets.  Sabonis was awesome before injuries took his legs away and he came to the NBA.

The Soviet team was for real.  And Yugoslavia weren't pushovers in 1988 either - Divac, Stojko, Petrovic, Zarko, Radja, even a young Toni Kukoc are all on that 88 team.

[KingintheNorth4]

I'm so excited to watch The Last Dance. I haven't been this hyped to watch a basketball documentary since The Fab Five.

[Argonath Diver]

Yep, I have it blasting right now. I have about 400 MJ cards from my boyhood still. Solid first episode. Boy are they going in on Jerry Krause, eh?

With no live sports for a month, ESPN has to be very glad to be airing this.

[Rhom]

You know, I was a sophomore in college in 97-98.  I remember a little about some conflict; but nothing like this.  That was crazy.

[Ramsay B.]

Those 2 episodes were great. Damn, I miss those days. I also never realized what a horrible deal Scottie truly signed, and remember rumblings of tension but never fully understood everything going on at the time.

The Jordan highlights from the Celtics games were awesome. Management was so sour they made the playoffs that year. Fucking 30 win season too, and just to face Boston in their prime 1st round. 

Jordan also shitting on Krause’ height all the time. So ridiculous.

[Wilbur]

15 hours ago, Argonath Diver said:

...Boy are they going in on Jerry Krause, eh?

Jerry Krause and Jerry Reinsdorf probably deserve all the opprobrium that they receive.  They were anti-labor to the point of idiocy, constantly screwing their players out of nickels and dimes, treating their non-playing arena staff like dirt, and basically giving NBA ownership a bad name.

Like a lot of sports team owners, they screwed taxpayers out of hundreds of millions of dollars to build new stadiums, but then they went the extra mile by pretending that most of the luxury box incomes were non-sports related so that the revenues were not shared with the players.

Greedy, selfish, self-aggrandizing, self-interested, they lucked into Jordan and then for years failed to provide him with the support he needed to win championships.  A decent team around Jordan in Chicago should have been the natural dynasty after the Celtics and Lakers aged out in the late 80s, but instead the Jerrys failed to take action and failed to protect Jordan, allowing the Pistons to take to championships in those fallow years.

As the 80s progressed, it was increasingly obvious that the two teams with the most potential to succeed the Celtics and Lakers were the Sixers and Bulls, but Harold Katz (another lazy, greedy owner who pissed off his main star, Barkley, with his short-term greed - he chased off Pat Williams who built the 83 Sixers) and the Jerrys in Chicago were mis-managing their teams out of contention.

I haven't seen the show yet, but I hope they crap upon the Jerrys from an enormous height throughout the series for wasting the potential of Jordan in his prime years.

You are a bad owner/GM when Milwaukee, Denver, Portland and Utah are obviously making greater efforts than you are to win and to put attractive product out on the floor.