MLB 2020: This One’s For Kobe

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

On 5/4/2020 at 5:11 PM, Ramsay B. said:

Bandwagon

I think I’m gonna go with NC Dinos... because dinosaurs. Although Wyverns look good too.

This really could have gone poorly for you.

Also I'll always have a crush on Alison Doody.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

No Dinos game to gloat about?

This is bullshit! 

[Fez]

On 5/15/2020 at 3:08 PM, Tywin et al. said:

Of course not. My point was make those fuckers bat. They can.
 

And my point is that they can't. In almost every high school, the best hitter there would never be able to hit MLB pitching, no matter how much coaching and practice they get. So a pitcher being the best hitter in high school doesn't mean anything. 

To actually be able to handle MLB pitching you have to be more like the best hitter or two in your entire state for your grade. And that's rarely a pitcher (or, if it is, its someone who's pitching will never be up to MLB, or even college, levels), that's the hyper-athletic freak of nature shortstop or center fielder that crops up every once in a while from a school. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

30 minutes ago, Fez said:

And my point is that they can't. In almost every high school, the best hitter there would never be able to hit MLB pitching, no matter how much coaching and practice they get. So a pitcher being the best hitter in high school doesn't mean anything. 

To actually be able to handle MLB pitching you have to be more like the best hitter or two in your entire state for your grade. And that's rarely a pitcher (or, if it is, its someone who's pitching will never be up to MLB, or even college, levels), that's the hyper-athletic freak of nature shortstop or center fielder that crops up every once in a while from a school. 

I'd argue that's a coaching issue. Fielders have to bat, and they can learn their defensive techniques just fine. Pitchers actually have less of an excuse. They may need a day or two off, but they need to also work on their batting skills. 

The game needs more Ohtanis. 

[DMC]

6 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'd argue that's a coaching issue.

Heh, a "coaching issue."  I suppose if you mean pitchers usually do not bat in the minors, college, or even sometimes in high school - although I really wouldn't call that "coaching."  Even if, the fact is pitchers have always sucked at hitting:

Quote

In 1968, The Year of the Pitcher (but, you know, on the mound), pitchers in major league baseball posted a slash line of .132/.167/.171, good for a wRC+ of 1, in 9,024 plate appearances. A decade later? Just 5,185 plate appearances, but the slash line improved a bit, to .148/.183/.188, though the wRC+ dipped to -1. By 1988, as more and more pitchers spent less and less time hitting, it dropped to .133/.163/.168 and a -9 wRC+. It rallied to .146/.187/.183 and a wRC+ of -6 in 1998. And even as overall offense remained pretty static in 2008, major league pitchers slashed just .139/.177/.176 that season. And by 2018? Pitchers overall hit .115/.144/.148 in the major leagues in 2018 in 5,135 plate appearances. That’s a -25 wRC+

I dunno about you, but I don't want to watch a group of people try to hit when their ceiling is about a 0 WRC+.  Even if you had pitchers bat in the minors/college, there's still the main problem of a lack of reps without the DH:

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“The problem is the lack of at-bats,” Arrieta said. “We’re only getting three at-bats a week, three or four at-bats a week, so it’s hard to put up really good numbers when you’re not getting many at-bats. It’s like a guy pinch-hitting who’s not getting consistent at-bats on a daily basis and going up there and facing a guy once every three, four, five days.”

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, DMC said:

Heh, a "coaching issue."  I suppose if you mean pitchers usually do not bat in the minors, college, or even sometimes in high school - although I really wouldn't call that "coaching."  Even if, the fact is pitchers have always sucked at hitting:

I dunno about you, but I don't want to watch a group of people try to hit when their ceiling is about a 0 WRC+.  Even if you had pitchers bat in the minors/college, there's still the main problem of a lack of reps without the DH:

 

So, ya know, coach them up maybe?

Pitchers are not bad at batting because they can't do it. They just aren't asked to train at it much. There is no reason why they can't be better. Will they be as a good as your average fielder? No, on average probably not. But fuck you if you think you can throw at me and then duck getting hit yourself and make one of your teammates take the HBP instead.

[DMC]

16 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

So, ya know, coach them up maybe?

"Coach them up" to what, a zero wRC+ rather than a -25 wRC+?  If you think "coaching up" is going to change those results to anything even remotely close to an average major league batter, your faith in the impact of "coaching up" is disturbing.  They're still gonna suck hard.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

15 minutes ago, DMC said:

"Coach them up" to what, a zero wRC+ rather than a -25 wRC+?  If you think "coaching up" is going to change those results to anything even remotely close to an average major league batter, your faith in the impact of "coaching up" is disturbing.  They're still gonna suck hard.

I'm not so sure about that. I'd argue it's the same reason why bigs in basketball tend to be bad shooters. It's just not a skill set they're asked to work on. Now that bigs are doing it, they're becoming pretty dangerous at it. 30 years ago Durant wouldn't have been asked to shoot much and just score in the paint, but he's one of the best shooters to ever live. Imagine if Rodman, for example, a terrible shooter, had actually been encouraged to focus on it. Would he be Curry? No. Would he be better? Of course.

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'd argue it's the same reason why bigs in basketball tend to be bad shooters. It's just not a skill set they're asked to work on. Now that bigs are doing it, they're becoming pretty dangerous at it. 30 years ago Durant wouldn't have been asked to shoot much and just score in the paint, but he's one of the best shooters to ever live. Imagine if Rodman, for example, a terrible shooter, had actually been encouraged to focus on it. Would he be Curry? No. Would he be better? Of course.

This is a dubious comparison.  Big men, especially talented ones, still have to make free throws.  You think Shaq or Rodman would have been better if they worked on it more?  Pretty sure Shaq went through like a dozen free throw specialists throughout his career.  None of them worked, he was just bad at it.  Like Rodman, or Ben Wallace.  Alternatively, many of the elite big men of that era - Robinson, Ewing, Malone - were indeed average free throw shooters.  You're right that they weren't asked to shoot 3s so they'd probably be pretty bad at it - just as pitchers with no DH would still only be getting a handful of at bats per week.  No amount of coaching can replace gametime reps, especially when facing the best competition in the world.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

This is a dubious comparison.  Big men, especially talented ones, still have to make free throws.  You think Shaq or Rodman would have been better if they worked on it more?  Pretty sure Shaq went through like a dozen free throw specialists throughout his career.  None of them worked, he was just bad at it.  Like Rodman, or Ben Wallace.  Alternatively, many of the elite big men of that era - Robinson, Ewing, Malone - were indeed average free throw shooters.  You're right that they weren't asked to shoot 3s so they'd probably be pretty bad at it - just as pitchers with no DH would still only be getting a handful of at bats per week.  No amount of coaching can replace gametime reps, especially when facing the best competition in the world.

Shaq was also the laziest superstar ever. And Rodman was, well, Rodman. 

Ben Wallace, now that's an interesting example to think about. I remember watching some of his training videos the Pistons would release. I've never seen a guy train exactly like that. He would rebound medicine balls, and not small ones, some of the biggest ones I've ever seen. And he'd shoot with them.

I wouldn't advise that. A coach with a modern mindset could have easily made Wallace a much more dynamic offensive player. 

Yes it's true, less real game reps does make you a lesser batter, but so does being told early on in your career that it's not a skill you should put a ton of effort into. I really do believe a lot of these pitchers could be so much better at it if they were asked to and played in the field on some off days to get more reps.  (ETA: Earlier on, not necessarily in the pros unless you have a guy who can. Dudes throw less these days anyways).

[DMC]

26 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Shaq was also the laziest superstar ever.

It's insanely absurd to refer to a guy that played 20 seasons and is fourth all time on the free throw attempts list as "lazy."  Nobody in NBA history took as much physical punishment as Shaq.  Well, maybe Wilt, I wasn't around.

31 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

A coach with a modern mindset could have easily made Wallace a much more dynamic offensive player. 

LOL.  I love Ben Wallace, but acting like him, Rodman, or Shaq weren't utterly hopeless when it comes to shooting at the NBA level makes me wonder if you actually think coaches have magical powers.

34 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I really do believe a lot of these pitchers could be so much better at it if they were asked to and played in the field on some off days to get more reps.

Well now you're changing the conversation.  So you want starters to not only bat but try and play the field on off-days?  Even without a DH, virtually no one has ever done this at the MLB level.  You think that's an accident?  Hell, you said you want more Ohtanis - the DH actually helps him get more ABs because the Angels aren't comfortable putting him in the field.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

It's insanely absurd to refer to a guy that played 20 seasons and is fourth all time on the free throw attempts list as "lazy."  Nobody in NBA history took as much physical punishment as Shaq.  Well, maybe Wilt, I wasn't around.

Talk to Kobe watching his fat ass walk into the gym with a bag of cheeseburgers while he'd been training for hours. And yes, I know you like him, but Shaq was lazy. A dedicated Shaq could have been better than Jordan. Shaq in his prime was possibly better than anyone, but even then his effort was not great. 

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LOL.  I love Ben Wallace, but acting like him, Rodman, or Shaq weren't utterly hopeless when it comes to shooting at the NBA level makes me wonder if you actually think coaches have magical powers.

There's a difference between not being able to shoot and not being able to shoot, and the latter was often time because you had bad coaching.

Coaches do not have magical powers, but it is telling that good coaching tends to get the most out of their talent. Just look at the NFL this year. The Pats and Steelers were not great teams, but they got great performances out of their players and both overachieved. The Chiefs, also with a great coach, helped create a monster the likes of which we've maybe never seen. And your team, which offensively, was pretty mediocre talent wise, made a different dude look like a stud each week it felt.

Good coaching has a great deal of value, and creativity and innovation only makes it better, as does a willingness to not be stuck to a singular idea of what that means. 

Quote

Well now you're changing the conversation.  So you want starters to not only bat but try and play the field on off-days?  Even without a DH, virtually no one has ever done this at the MLB level.  You think that's an accident?  Hell, you said you want more Ohtanis - the DH actually helps him get more ABs because the Angels aren't comfortable putting him in the field.

I guess I'm just the type that likes this new concept of using a pitcher for an inning or three if the situation requires it. And that creates a DH loophole. You can move guys around in the field to make this work as efficiently as possible. 

[DMC]

13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And yes, I know you like him, but Shaq was lazy. A dedicated Shaq could have been better than Jordan. Shaq in his prime was possibly better than anyone, but even then his effort was not great. 

I don't really like Shaq, particularly as a Magic fan.  And Kobe impugning his effort is hardly surprising considering their antipathy and the fact latter's whole gimmick was emphasizing he worked harder than anybody but Jordan.

15 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

There's a difference between not being able to shoot and not being able to shoot, and the latter was often time because you had bad coaching.

No, it really wasn't.  Not in the case of Rodman, Wallace, Shaq.  Bill Laimbeer was Rodman's frontcourt mate with the Pistons, and he made 200 3s at a 33% clip throughout his career.  Ben Wallace's frontcourt mate with the Pistons was Rasheed Wallace, and he made over a thousand 3s at a 34% clip.  Horace Grant was one of Shaq's frontcourt mates, and while he never shot 3s, most of his offensive game was hitting 18-footers.  Another one of Shaq's frontcourt mate's Robert Horry, who made quite a few pretty big shots if memory serves.

The three if them couldn't shoot because of bad coaching, it's because they couldn't shoot.  Stop acting like the game has changed so much you could fundamentally change an all-star's skillset based on a different offensive philosophy.  There were plenty of big men that had outside games - when they could do it successfully.

22 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You can move guys around in the field to make this work as efficiently as possible. 

Having pitchers play the field is about the most inefficient use of one's roster that could be possibly be imagined.

[Inkdaub]

5 hours ago, DMC said:

"Coach them up" to what, a zero wRC+ rather than a -25 wRC+?  If you think "coaching up" is going to change those results to anything even remotely close to an average major league batter, your faith in the impact of "coaching up" is disturbing.  They're still gonna suck hard.

They can be better than they are currently, but they will likely be the worst hitters on the team in any case.  The at bats argument is valid I think.  Also, as much as I hate it, a good pitcher is too valuable for the team to risk at the plate and on the base paths.

I still think baseball players should be baseball players as I said before.  That means pitchers will bat like anyone else and they will suck and that will be part of the game. 

The other side of my view is, in addition to extending the careers of certain players, the dh taking the pitcher's spot means he isn't taking anyone else's.  I am a fan of defense so I'd hate to see a shitty defensive player in the lineup because the team simply cannot go without his bat.  Even though this happens every day anyway.  Hitting is the the most difficult thing to do on a baseball team so if you are good at it you'll be in the lineup.  At least one of those guys can hit for the pitcher.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 hours ago, DMC said:

Having pitchers play the field is about the most inefficient use of one's roster that could be possibly be imagined.

Positionless baseball could just be the next evolution of the game. Versatility is a valuable trait, after all.

But in more important news, the Dinos are back at it, and those evil Bears are getting their asses kicked. Just two more innings to lock up another one.

And ESPN still won't put us on. The lamestream media is just being fake news again.  

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Positionless baseball could just be the next evolution of the game.

Who knows, perhaps so could baseketball.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

19 minutes ago, DMC said:

Who knows, perhaps so could baseketball.

We used to play it in basketball practice.

It really is quite a fun game. I'd bet you would be a nasty psyche out artist.

(And the film really did have two of the prettiest women to ever live in it)

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

DINOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ramsay B.]

Our boys can’t be stopped! 

[Inkdaub]

On 5/17/2020 at 3:24 AM, Inkdaub said:

I'm telling all of you...one of these days the Wyverns will win.