Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I wanted to start a new thread since the one we were speaking in was The Starks @sweetsunray @Nagini's Neville

 

Quote

 

Actually a more apt comparison would be:

1. You know I rob stores with a gang and I have an arsenal of guns.
2. You keep telling me that you want something and that I and my gang should take it. The job you want me to do is huge.
3. I tell you that in order to do that I will need to rob a store.
4. You say fine and you will come along.
5. We go to the store and it's absolute mayhem

According to the law, even if you yourself never held a gun to anyone inside the story, you were an accomplice and that you are equally responsible for the death of anyone killed during the robbery.

 

 

 

 

 

So, a couple things: Dany doesn't tell Drogo ever that his "gang" should take it. While that is how she would gain the throne, it really isn't any different than Aegon the Conquerer, or any other rebel for that matter. He doesn't tell her in order to do this he has to pillage the Lhazareen & the Lhazareen were under attack by Khal Ogo's khalasar when Drogo & his arrived, so that they wouldn't have suffered that fate without Daenerys being involved (something we talked about earlier) is clearly false. There is no exchange between Dany & Drogo where he says I have to do this in order to get your throne & she says "fine I'll come along." We don't get the exchange about why Drogo chooses to pillage the Lamb people but it's pretty likely he didn't discuss the decision with Dany, as he never does. It certainly can be argued that she understands completely, especially after witnessing the massacre of the Lhazareen, what Drogo & his khalasar will unleash on Westeros & that is what I think she is to blame for. She really has no reason to know Drogo will attack the Lhazareen & I don't think it has anything to do with Drogo deciding he will take the IT. 

I don't think we can forget either, that Dany didn't just stop the rape of MMD but every woman they passed that was being raped. 

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I wanted to start a new thread since the one we were speaking in was The Starks @sweetsunray @Nagini's Neville

 

 

 

So, a couple things: Dany doesn't tell Drogo ever that his "gang" should take it. While that is how she would gain the throne, it really isn't any different than Aegon the Conquerer, or any other rebel for that matter. He doesn't tell her in order to do this he has to pillage the Lhazareen & the Lhazareen were under attack by Khal Ogo's khalasar when Drogo & his arrived, so that they wouldn't have suffered that fate without Daenerys being involved (something we talked about earlier) is clearly false. There is no exchange between Dany & Drogo where he says I have to do this in order to get your throne & she says "fine I'll come along." We don't get the exchange about why Drogo chooses to pillage the Lamb people but it's pretty likely he didn't discuss the decision with Dany, as he never does. It certainly can be argued that she understands completely, especially after witnessing the massacre of the Lhazareen, what Drogo & his khalasar will unleash on Westeros & that is what I think she is to blame for. She really has no reason to know Drogo will attack the Lhazareen & I don't think it has anything to do with Drogo deciding he will take the IT. 

I don't think we can forget either, that Dany didn't just stop the rape of MMD but every woman they passed that was being raped. 

There's another issue.  The position of married women within this world.  We don't (or most readers don't) hold Joanna Lannister, or Lady Frey, or Walda Bolton responsible for the wrongs committed by their husbands.  It is not a married woman's place to question her husband's military decisions, nor would it ever occur to her to do so.  Even more so among the Dothraki, where the status of married women, including a Khaleesi, is very low.  Daenerys is not a part of the chain of command within the Khalasar.  Any authority she has depends entirely on the whim of her husband, and disappears as soon as he is incapacitated.  Daenerys wonders indeed if she'll get into trouble when she tries to stop rapes and murders at the village - but Drogo indulges her.  But, the idea that Drogo would defer to his wife on military matters more generally is for the fairies.

Khal Drogo was prompted to act by the failed attempt to murder Daenerys and his unborn child.  If you're looking for someone other than him  and his warriors to blame for what took place at Mirri's village, then blame Robert Baratheon and the Small Council who sanctioned the murder attempt.  And, he intended to win the Iron Throne for his son, not for Daenerys.  I suppose Daenerys could have begged him not to go to war, but even supposing that such a thing occurred to her, it would have been quite futile.

[sweetsunray]

Went over this in extensive detail for 2 consecutive threads several years ago:

First responses from me in that thread about showing how MMD being responsible is bollocks, but from page 2 I respond to the "MMD confessed it".

 

[SeanF]

I think MMD had good reason to hate Drogo, Daenerys, and Rhaego, and to leave the one comatose, the other destitute, and to destroy Rhaego, in order to keep Drogo alive, but a vegetable.   And, Daenerys had good reason to hate her, in turn.  MMD after all claimed the credit for the condition of Drogo and the destruction of Rhaego.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think MMD had good reason to hate Drogo, Daenerys, and Rhaego, and to leave the one comatose, the other destitute, and to destroy Rhaego, in order to keep Drogo alive, but a vegetable.   And, Daenerys had good reason to hate her, in turn.  MMD after all claimed the credit for the condition of Drogo and the destruction of Rhaego.  

Right. That's what I'm saying. I don't buy that Dany should've understood where MMD was coming from or shouldn't have hated her for what she took credit for. And as to your first post, I agree 100%.

@sweetsunray thanks for the link, I'll take a look at it. I know this has been discussed to death but it's always good to take a fresh look at things. Besides what else can we do without any new text. I certainly understand if you don't want to "rehash" it. 

[sweetsunray]

Here is the link to thread 2.

 

[SeanF]

Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right. That's what I'm saying. I don't buy that Dany should've understood where MMD was coming from or shouldn't have hated her for what she took credit for. And as to your first post, I agree 100%.

@sweetsunray thanks for the link, I'll take a look at it. I know this has been discussed to death but it's always good to take a fresh look at things. Besides what else can we do without any new text. I certainly understand if you don't want to "rehash" it. 

Why would MMD not wish to strike at the three of them?  I'm not blaming her for doing so, but I'm not blaming Daenerys for hating her for doing so.  I sympathise with them both.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Why would MMD not wish to strike at the three of them?  I'm not blaming her for doing so, but I'm not blaming Daenerys for hating her for doing so.  I sympathise with them both.

Yeah for sure. I think you can't make the argument that MMD had every right to want to cause them harm while still insisting she did nothing but try to heal Drogo & help Daenerys though. Why would she want to heal Drogo or help Dany? I certainly wouldn't. 

While I do have my doubts that MMD did anything to Rhaego, I can't believe that Drogo's infection was because he wouldn't keep the poultice on. She has zero reason to want to help or heal Drogo. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Here is the link to thread 2.

 

Thanks again. I'll peak at it when I get a few free moments. 

I don't really want to pick responses out of a 5 year old thread to respond to though - just didn't want you to think I was ignoring the links you are posting. I'm just interested in discussing things presently. 

[SeanF]

Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah for sure. I think you can't make the argument that MMD had every right to want to cause them harm while still insisting she did nothing but try to heal Drogo & help Daenerys though. Why would she want to heal Drogo or help Dany? I certainly wouldn't. 

While I do have my doubts that MMD did anything to Rhaego, I can't believe that Drogo's infection was because he wouldn't keep the poultice on. She has zero reason to want to help or heal Drogo. 

MMD made plain to Daenerys (after the event) that Rhaego's death was the price for Drogo's life (such as it was), not the death of a horse.

"That was a lie you told yourself.  You knew the price."  

 

[sweetsunray]

I get it... but I'm also not going to rehash all the arguments of the time. I never changed my mind and I've never seen an argument that was convincing to change it.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

MMD sort of reminds me of Tyrion with Joffrey's murder and how he took ownership of it after he saw that he would be blamed for it no matter what. 

I'm not sure that MMD is responsible for Drogo's death. She was explicit in her instructions about the healing of his

wound, but he did the opposite of everything she told him. It's not impossible that she took advantage of the situation.

And as far as Rhaego goes, she told Dany not to enter the tent once she started her bloodmagic ritual, but Jorah took her in there. This one especially, I don't believe she can be blamed for.

Dead for dead, might as well say that she is responsible for the things she's getting condemned for. Would it have changed anything at all if she told Dany that she had nothing to do with what happened? She had already been judged guilty because she was a maegi.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She really has no reason to know Drogo will attack the Lhazareen & I don't think it has anything to do with Drogo deciding he will take the IT. 

Where did she expect the funds would come from to go to Westeros? They more than 1,000 ships to hold the khalasar, their horses, slaves and whatever else. The people taken at the Lhazareen village were going to be sold into slavery to pay for the Westerosi venture.

Across the road, a girl no older than Dany was sobbing in a high thin voice as a rider shoved her over a pile of corpses, facedown, and thrust himself inside her. Other riders dismounted to take their turns. That was the sort of deliverance the Dothraki brought the Lamb Men.
I am the blood of the dragon, Daenerys Targaryen reminded herself as she turned her face away. She pressed her lips together and hardened her heart and rode on toward the gate.
"Most of Ogo's riders fled," Ser Jorah was saying. "Still, there may be as many as ten thousand captives."
Slaves, Dany thought. Khal Drogo would drive them downriver to one of the towns on Slaver's Bay. She wanted to cry, but she told herself that she must be strong. This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne.
"I've told the khal he ought to make for Meereen," Ser Jorah said. "They'll pay a better price than he'd get from a slaving caravan. Illyrio writes that they had a plague last year, so the brothels are paying double for healthy young girls, and triple for boys under ten. If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them." (Dany VII, AGoT 61)

Drogo may not consult Dany and he may not have consulted her in this, but she is fully aware of what Drogo was going to do in order to get to Westeros. He was going to sack and burn cities, capture people, sell them into slavery. "If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them."

Good for her for saving the women from being further raped and claiming them as hers to protect them, but the children were still going to be sold to get her and Drogo's khalasar to Westeros.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

23 minutes ago, SeanF said:

MMD made plain to Daenerys (after the event) that Rhaego's death was the price for Drogo's life (such as it was), not the death of a horse.

"That was a lie you told yourself.  You knew the price."  

 

Yeah I know that's what she said, I am just skeptical about it. Either way though, I think there was enough reason for Dany to think it. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

24 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I get it... but I'm also not going to rehash all the arguments of the time. I never changed my mind and I've never seen an argument that was convincing to change it.

No worries, I understand. 

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 

Where did she expect the funds would come from to go to Westeros? They more than 1,000 ships to hold the khalasar, their horses, slaves and whatever else. The people taken at the Lhazareen village were going to be sold into slavery to pay for the Westerosi venture.

Across the road, a girl no older than Dany was sobbing in a high thin voice as a rider shoved her over a pile of corpses, facedown, and thrust himself inside her. Other riders dismounted to take their turns. That was the sort of deliverance the Dothraki brought the Lamb Men.
I am the blood of the dragon, Daenerys Targaryen reminded herself as she turned her face away. She pressed her lips together and hardened her heart and rode on toward the gate.
"Most of Ogo's riders fled," Ser Jorah was saying. "Still, there may be as many as ten thousand captives."
Slaves, Dany thought. Khal Drogo would drive them downriver to one of the towns on Slaver's Bay. She wanted to cry, but she told herself that she must be strong. This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne.
"I've told the khal he ought to make for Meereen," Ser Jorah said. "They'll pay a better price than he'd get from a slaving caravan. Illyrio writes that they had a plague last year, so the brothels are paying double for healthy young girls, and triple for boys under ten. If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them." (Dany VII, AGoT 61)

Drogo may not consult Dany and he may not have consulted her in this, but she is fully aware of what Drogo was going to do in order to get to Westeros. He was going to sack and burn cities, capture people, sell them into slavery. "If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them."

Good for her for saving the women from being further raped and claiming them as hers to protect them, but the children were still going to be sold to get her and Drogo's khalasar to Westeros.

That may be so, but I at least, don't hold wives responsible for their husband's military decisions in this world.  Once Daenerys becomes a commander, then of course, she must be held accountable for the actions of her soldiers.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

'm not sure that MMD is responsible for Drogo's death. She was explicit in her instructions about the healing of his

wound, but he did the opposite of everything she told him. It's not impossible that she took advantage of the situation.

Right, I know. But knowing how this woman was harmed by Drogo & his khalasar, knowing she is clearly bitter about it, doesn't that make you question the motives of her wanting to "heal" Drogo to begin with? Why would she do that if it weren't a ploy to actually kill him? 

5 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And as far as Rhaego goes, she told Dany not to enter the tent once she started her bloodmagic ritual, but Jorah took her in there. This one especially, I don't believe she can be blamed for.

I agree & I don't think MMD probably had anything to do with Rhaego's death BUT I think there is enough there for Dany to believe it & MMD does not deny it, she implies it. 

6 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Dead for dead, might as well say that she is responsible for the things she's getting condemned for. Would it have changed anything at all if she told Dany that she had nothing to do with what happened? She had already been judged guilty because she was a maegi.

I don't know if it would have changed anything for Dany, but it would have changed things for me. I don't think she had already been judged guilty because she was a maegi by Dany. What makes you think so? 

8 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Where did she expect the funds would come from to go to Westeros? They more than 1,000 ships to hold the khalasar, their horses, slaves and whatever else. The people taken at the Lhazareen village were going to be sold into slavery to pay for the Westerosi venture.

Yeah, absolutely but she wouldn't have been privvy to discussions on how the funds would be made. She wouldn't have had a voice in deciding which village to attack, nor would anyone have listened to her if she suggested raising funds some other way. Just because she likely knew the funds would come from selling slaves doesn't make her responsible for selling the slaves or pillaging the village. 

10 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Drogo may not consult Dany and he may not have consulted her in this, but she is fully aware of what Drogo was going to do in order to get to Westeros. He was going to sack and burn cities, capture people, sell them into slavery. "If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them."

I think we can safely say he didn't consult her. We have no other text suggesting that he ever has & we know it is not in his culture to do so. Yes, she is aware of what the Dothraki do & if she weren't aware of how they would raise funds before the attack on the Lhazareen she most certainly was after. 

11 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Good for her for saving the women from being further raped and claiming them as hers to protect them, but the children were still going to be sold to get her and Drogo's khalasar to Westeros.

For sure. Daenerys is no angel but at this point in the story I think she is pretty young & naive more than malicious & vengeful. I think this is more a result of not thinking about what is going on & feeling as if she can only do so much rather than her not caring that the children are being sold into slavery. 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That may be so, but I at least, don't hold wives responsible for their husband's military decisions in this world.  Once Daenerys becomes a commander, then of course, she must be held accountable for the actions of her soldiers.

Her methods as a commander are her methods. I was talking about what she knew was going to happen to get her to Westeros. She's not stupid or naive.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Her methods as a commander are her methods. I was talking about what she knew was going to happen to get her to Westeros. She's not stupid or naive.

I think that's arguable. She isn't stupid but she is likely naive. This is her first experience with the Dothraki in battle. She did know something of the ways of the Dothraki though & likely knew some of this would happen to raise funds - so I agree on that part. I don't think it was a conscious decision though, like I don't think she thought "Oh well, people will die, people will be sold into slavery, but I'll get my IT!" I think it was more that she didn't think about those things until they were happening in her face. Then she tries to tell herself; this is war, this is what happens in war etc but even then she can't stand the women being raped & finally makes a decision to stop it.  Where I disagree is that knowing what would likely happen to get her to westeros means it's her fault. 

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Her methods as a commander are her methods. I was talking about what she knew was going to happen to get her to Westeros. She's not stupid or naive.

I expect that in abstract terms, she would have an idea that Khal Drogo would be pretty brutal.  But, at this point, she's a 14 year old girl, with no experience of war.  It's not until she sees what's going down at the village that she learns the true horror. 

But, it doesn't much matter what she knows.  The waging of war is not in her hands.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think that's arguable. She isn't stupid but she is likely naive. This is her first experience with the Dothraki in battle. She did know something of the ways of the Dothraki though & likely knew some of this would happen to raise funds - so I agree on that part. I don't think it was a conscious decision though, like I don't think she thought "Oh well, people will die, people will be sold into slavery, but I'll get my IT!" I think it was more that she didn't think about those things until they were happening in her face. Then she tries to tell herself; this is war, this is what happens in war etc but even then she can't stand the women being raped & finally makes a decision to stop it.  Where I disagree is that knowing what would likely happen to get her to westeros means it's her fault. 

Drogo is waging the war for Rhaego, not for Daenerys.  The idea of a woman ruling as Queen would be alien to him.