Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Where I disagree is that knowing what would likely happen to get her to westeros means it's her fault. 

I didn't say it was her fault, though. I'm only pointing to her knowing the cost to reach the Iron Throne. She is clearly hurting over what she sees is happening in that settlement, but she tells herself that she has to harden her heart because this is what war looks like and this is the price of the Iron Throne. These are her inner thoughts, so I'm not making this stuff up.

But this is also a price she is not willing to pay in ASoS because she evolved from that moment.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Drogo is waging the war for Rhaego, not for Daenerys.  The idea of a woman ruling as Queen would be alien to him.

Yeah you're right. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I didn't say it was her fault, though. I'm only pointing to her knowing the cost to reach the Iron Throne. She is clearly hurting over what she sees is happening in that settlement, but she tells herself that she has to harden her heart because this is what war looks like and this is the price of the Iron Throne. These are her inner thoughts, so I'm not making this stuff up.

But this is also a price she is not willing to pay in ASoS because she evolved from that moment.

Oh, my bad. Yeah I agree then. 

[sweetsunray]

I reread the OP, and it does contain something that I did not discuss line by line several years ago. In the threads I linked to, the main topic was whether MMD was guilty or not of what Dany accused her, and does what MMD says constitute to a confession or not.

That thread contained some of the best rebuttal posts by many to make clear that MMD was not guilty, that Dany was well aware that the price would be a human life, that she told MMD to "do it" before any horse was brought in knowing full well that MMD meant a human life when she said "only death can pay for life"...

But in this OP it focuses more on Dany's responsibility in the attack of the Lhazareen village. I did not focus on it at the time, but someone else tackled it (in the 2nd thread IIRC). I will elaborate why I do consider her carrying some part of the responsbility and counter the general arguments that she's not.

So here goes:

We have to go back to the chapter where we learn that Dany is badgering Drogo about invading Westeros to capture the Iron Throne.

 

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The khal's mouth twisted in a frown beneath the droop of his long mustachio. "The stallion who mounts the world has no need of iron chairs."

Dany propped herself on an elbow to look up at him, so tall and magnificent. She loved his hair especially. It had never been cut; he had never known defeat. "It was prophesied that the stallion will ride to the ends of the earth," she said. [...] "In the Free Cities, there are ships by the thousand," Dany told him, as she had told him before. "Wooden horses with a hundred legs, that fly across the sea on wings full of wind."

Khal Drogo did not want to hear it. "We will speak no more of wooden horses and iron chairs." He dropped the cloth and began to dress. "This day I will go to the grass and hunt, woman wife," he announced as he shrugged into a painted vest and buckled on a wide belt with heavy medallions of silver, gold, and bronze.

"Yes, my sun-and-stars," Dany said. Drogo would take his bloodriders and ride in search of hrakkar, the great white lion of the plains. If they returned triumphant, her lord husband's joy would be fierce, and he might be willing to hear her out. (aGoT, Dany VI)

 

 

When it's pointed out that Dany repeatedly asked Drogo about this, it's often said, "But Drogo refused, and when he decided to invade Westeros it was because of the assassination AND for Rhaego not for Dany." These counter argument paint the orginal argument as claiming that Dany asked the throne for herself. But she did not. Dany always presented her arguments to invade Westeros as something Drogo should do for her son. And while yes, Drogo refuses often, Dany shows she is not intending to let it go.

 

Now next I will show a significant detail that readers forget over time: Dany enlists Jorah's help in trying convince Drogo of invading Westeros.

 

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The knight came at once. He wore horsehair leggings and painted vest, like a rider. Coarse black hair covered his thick chest and muscular arms. "My princess. How may I serve you?"

"You must talk to my lord husband," Dany said. "Drogo says the stallion who mounts the world will have all the lands of the earth to rule, and no need to cross the poison water. He talks of leading his khalasar east after Rhaego is born, to plunder the lands around the Jade Sea."

The knight looked thoughtful. "The khal has never seen the Seven Kingdoms," he said. "They are nothing to him. If he thinks of them at all, no doubt he thinks of islands, a few small cities clinging to rocks in the manner of Lorath or Lys, surrounded by stormy seas. The riches of the east must seem a more tempting prospect."

"But he must ride west," Dany said, despairing. "Please, help me make him understand." (aGoT, Dany VI)

Dany and Jorah leave for the market, and Jorah saves her from the poisoned wine. And then Drogo returns, invigorated with the capture of his prey - the white lion.

 

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The brazier was cold again by the time Khal Drogo returned. Cohollo was leading a packhorse behind him, with the carcass of a great white lion slung across its back. Above, the stars were coming out. The khal laughed as he swung down off his stallion and showed her the scars on his leg where the hrakkar had raked him through his leggings. "I shall make you a cloak of its skin, moon of my life," he swore.

When Dany told him what had happened at the market, all laughter stopped, and Khal Drogo grew very quiet.

"This poisoner was the first," Ser Jorah Mormont warned him, "but he will not be the last. Men will risk much for a lordship."

Drogo was silent for a time. Finally he said, "This seller of poisons ran from the moon of my life. Better he should run after her. So he will. Jhogo, Jorah the Andal, to each of you I say, choose any horse you wish from my herds, and it is yours. Any horse save my red and the silver that was my bride gift to the moon of my life. I make this gift to you for what you did.

"And to Rhaego son of Drogo, the stallion who will mount the world, to him I also pledge a gift. To him I will give this iron chair his mother's father sat in. I will give him Seven Kingdoms. I, Drogo, khal, will do this thing." His voice rose, and he lifted his fist to the sky. "I will take my khalasar west to where the world ends, and ride the wooden horses across the black salt water as no khal has done before. I will kill the men in the iron suits and tear down their stone houses. I will rape their women, take their children as slaves, and bring their broken gods back to Vaes Dothrak to bow down beneath the Mother of Mountains. This I vow, I, Drogo son of Bharbo. This I swear before the Mother of Mountains, as the stars look down in witness."

His khalasar left Vaes Dothrak two days later, striking south and west across the plains. (aGoT, Dany VI)

 

 

It may seem that Drogo decided to to go to war to invade the West in order in direct response to the assassination attempt, but that does not make his decision independent from Dany's earlier arguments. If Dany had not argued for it so often and without giving up, had not argued over it in favour of their son, it is unlikely that Drogo would have decided to invade Westeros once he decided in favour of it. The assassination attempt made Drogo agree with his wife, made Drogo want to please his wife, and the son. But most of all, did you notice Jorah's prompting? Dany begged Jorah to help her make Drogo see he should invade the west. And Jorah does exactly that: he warns Drogo there will be more assassination attempts. And it are Jorah's helpful words that do convince Drogo.

 

In short, the chapter was written to show how Dany and Jorah manipulated Drogo into agreeing to invade Westeros in a manner that Drogo believes it's his own decision, but equally sees his wife as a valid adviser to him.

 

The other counter argument is that Dany didn't know what war entailed. She might not have witnessed war directly before the attack on the Lhazareen, but she does very much know in theory what a khalasar does: plunder, rape, enslave and tear down cities and buildings to drag statues back to Vaes Dothrak. She has seen the statues of razed cities gone forever. She has seen men killed during her wedding, and has women seen taken roughly, endured being taken roughly. She knows what it feels like to be sold to a man. There's nothing in this chapter that fits the picture of an innocent 14 year old who didn't know what the Dothraki would be like when they attack whichever destination they have in mind. Dany is not naive.

 

So,  yes, she shares responsibility.

 

[corbon]

21 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The other counter argument is that Dany didn't know what war entailed. She might not have witnessed war directly before the attack on the Lhazareen, but she does very much know in theory what a khalasar does: plunder, rape, enslave and tear down cities and buildings to drag statues back to Vaes Dothrak. She has seen the statues of razed cities gone forever.

Her ideal is not this though. She wants the Dothraki to conquer the Seven Kingdoms for her (and/or through her son) to rule them, not to lay them to waste, plunder their gods etc etc. 
She's never really thought this through, IMO. She understands it in abstract, but not in reality. It takes the sack of the Lazreen for her to come to understanding. Yes, she tells herself that this is war, she needs to harden her heart - thats a clear indication she had a soft heart before and didn't understand the reality. And then, her actions speak louder, clearer, than her thoughts (which are forming and developing subconsciously even as she consciously tries to hold to the course she thinks she needs to be on, but doesn't in the end stick to

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She has seen men killed during her wedding, and has women seen taken roughly, endured being taken roughly.

These are not the same though. Neither in scale nor in substance.

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She knows what it feels like to be sold to a man.

... as a high status wife. Not the same as a slave at all.

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There's nothing in this chapter that fits the picture of an innocent 14 year old who didn't know what the Dothraki would be like when they attack whichever destination they have in mind. Dany is not naive.

I disagree. Completely.

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, corbon said:

Her ideal is not this though. She wants the Dothraki to conquer the Seven Kingdoms for her (and/or through her son) to rule them, not to lay them to waste, plunder their gods etc etc. 

That's not clear from the chapter. What is clear she wants to go "home". So, it's true that the motivation of her attempts to convince Drogo to take the Iron Chair are selfish, but it's not the argument she used with Drogo. And Drogo promising to invade Westeros for Rhaego is perfectly in line with what she expressed as desire several times in a row - for Rhaego.

Quote

She's never really thought this through, IMO. She understands it in abstract, but not in reality. It takes the sack of the Lazreen for her to come to understanding. Yes, she tells herself that this is war, she needs to harden her heart - thats a clear indication she had a soft heart before and didn't understand the reality. And then, her actions speak louder, clearer, than her thoughts,

Your argument doesn't lessen her share of responsibility in it, but instead makes it worse: you're painting her as being irresponsible.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I reread the OP, and it does contain something that I did not discuss line by line several years ago. In the threads I linked to, the main topic was whether MMD was guilty or not of what Dany accused her, and does what MMD says constitute to a confession or not.

That thread contained some of the best rebuttal posts by many to make clear that MMD was not guilty, that Dany was well aware that the price would be a human life, that she told MMD to "do it" before any horse was brought in knowing full well that MMD meant a human life when she said "only death can pay for life"...

But in this OP it focuses more on Dany's responsibility in the attack of the Lhazareen village. I did not focus on it at the time, but someone else tackled it (in the 2nd thread IIRC). I will elaborate why I do consider her carrying some part of the responsbility and counter the general arguments that she's not.

So here goes:

We have to go back to the chapter where we learn that Dany is badgering Drogo about invading Westeros to capture the Iron Throne.

 

 

When it's pointed out that Dany repeatedly asked Drogo about this, it's often said, "But Drogo refused, and when he decided to invade Westeros it was because of the assassination AND for Rhaego not for Dany." These counter argument paint the orginal argument as claiming that Dany asked the throne for herself. But she did not. Dany always presented her arguments to invade Westeros as something Drogo should do for her son. And while yes, Drogo refuses often, Dany shows she is not intending to let it go.

 

Now next I will show a significant detail that readers forget over time: Dany enlists Jorah's help in trying convince Drogo of invading Westeros.

 

Dany and Jorah leave for the market, and Jorah saves her from the poisoned wine. And then Drogo returns, invigorated with the capture of his prey - the white lion.

 

 

It may seem that Drogo decided to to go to war to invade the West in order in direct response to the assassination attempt, but that does not make his decision independent from Dany's earlier arguments. If Dany had not argued for it so often and without giving up, had not argued over it in favour of their son, it is unlikely that Drogo would have decided to invade Westeros once he decided in favour of it. The assassination attempt made Drogo agree with his wife, made Drogo want to please his wife, and the son. But most of all, did you notice Jorah's prompting? Dany begged Jorah to help her make Drogo see he should invade the west. And Jorah does exactly that: he warns Drogo there will be more assassination attempts. And it are Jorah's helpful words that do convince Drogo.

 

In short, the chapter was written to show how Dany and Jorah manipulated Drogo into agreeing to invade Westeros in a manner that Drogo believes it's his own decision, but equally sees his wife as a valid adviser to him.

 

The other counter argument is that Dany didn't know what war entailed. She might not have witnessed war directly before the attack on the Lhazareen, but she does very much know in theory what a khalasar does: plunder, rape, enslave and tear down cities and buildings to drag statues back to Vaes Dothrak. She has seen the statues of razed cities gone forever. She has seen men killed during her wedding, and has women seen taken roughly, endured being taken roughly. She knows what it feels like to be sold to a man. There's nothing in this chapter that fits the picture of an innocent 14 year old who didn't know what the Dothraki would be like when they attack whichever destination they have in mind. Dany is not naive.

 

So,  yes, she shares responsibility.

 

So, I agree with most of what you said but a few thoughts:

I think it was the attempt on her life with Jorah's comment that he was the first of many that led Drogo to agree to go to Westeros & take the IT (along with Dany's persistence, of course) Jorah's words certainly help but they aren't untrue as we see another attempt on Dany's life later. 

I don't think Drogo sees Dany as a valid advisor to him, but he may have one day, had he lived. He could have cared less what she had to say in the very beginning & now he is at least hearing her, in time he may have respected her opinion to the point that he would consider her points valid & considered acting on them but as it stands her words were not swaying him in the slightest. 

Both can be true: she knew what the Dothraki do AND she would have been naive to what war entailed, prior to the attack on the Lhazareen anyway. 

I think you have made a very good argument for why she should have never suggested taking the khalasar to Westeros & had they made it there, why she would share the blame for the devastation. That's not something I disagree with. The issue here is that we are talking about whether or not Dany holds blame for the khalasar attacking the Lamb people & every point you've given speaks to her asking, manipulating, enlisting others help, to get Drogo to attack Westeros, not the Lhazareen. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That's not clear from the chapter. What is clear she wants to go "home". So, it's true that the motivation of her attempts to convince Drogo to take the Iron Chair are selfish, but it's not the argument she used with Drogo. And Drogo promising to invade Westeros for Rhaego is perfectly in line with what she expressed as desire several times in a row - for Rhaego.

I don't disagree that she would share some of the blame for what would have been inflicted on Westeros but I think it's pretty clear she wants to rule them, or wants her son to rule them. Telling Drogo she wants the IT makes that pretty clear IMO. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Your argument doesn't lessen her share of responsibility in it, but instead makes it worse: you're painting her as being irresponsible

I think they are painting her as the naive, 14 year old she is. It's very telling that the first time she witnesses a battle she commands Dothraki (that are not hers to command) to stop taking their "spoils of war" as they see it. That shows bravery & strength & kindness. 

[corbon]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Your argument doesn't lessen her share of responsibility in it, but instead makes it worse: you're painting her as being irresponsible.

Of course. At this stage she really is a hopelessly naive 14 year old girl who's main influence has been Viserys. And only real exposure to the world has been through marrying Drogo as Khaleesi. Irresponsibility is to be expected to a large degree. Yes, she's had some not insignificant suffering, but she doesn't really understand how the world around her works. She's only starting to get some of the edges.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think it was the attempt on her life with Jorah's comment that he was the first of many that led Drogo to agree to go to Westeros & take the IT (along with Dany's persistence, of course) Jorah's words certainly help but they aren't untrue as we see another attempt on Dany's life later. 

An attempt that wasn't requested by the Iron Throne, but by the wizards who served the Undying at Qarth. Or better yet, the people trying to kill her next are th Dothraki themselves.

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think Drogo sees Dany as a valid advisor to him, but he may have one day, had he lived.

Drogo giving in to her demand about the Lhazareen women she takes as her own slaves and that if a Dothraki sleeps with a woman he should marry her in front of his bloodriders, the khal he took prisoner and everybody else disproves your assertions. Drogo is listening to her.

6 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think you have made a very good argument for why she should have never suggested taking the khalasar to Westeros & had they made it there, why she would share the blame for the devastation. That's not something I disagree with. The issue here is that we are talking about whether or not Dany holds blame for the khalasar attacking the Lamb people & every point you've given speaks to her asking, manipulating, enlisting others help, to get Drogo to attack Westeros, not the Lhazareen. 

Oh, there are several passages that Dany knows and recognizes why the Lhazareen had to be attacked. By the time she rides into the devestated town she knows exactly why it was attacked and why the people are enslaved and where they will be sold.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

An attempt that wasn't requested by the Iron Throne, but by the wizards who served the Undying at Qarth. Or better yet, the people trying to kill her next are th Dothraki themselves

You have a point there. It isn't unreasonable to think Robert would send more assassins though. He wanted to. 

15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Drogo giving in to her demand about the Lhazareen women she takes as her own slaves and that if a Dothraki sleeps with a woman he should marry her in front of his bloodriders, the khal he took prisoner and everybody else disproves your assertions. Drogo is listening to her.

Yes, he backed her after the riders brought their argument to him but that isn't the same as taking her advise in matters that involve conquering & war. 

He doesn't make his khalasar marry the women they are raping so, no he doesn't listen to that. He tells them basically to go find someone else to rape, just not the women Dany claimed. 

What Khal did he take prisoner? 

15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

, there are several passages that Dany knows and recognizes why the Lhazareen had to be attacked. By the time she rides into the devestated town she knows exactly why it was attacked and why the people are enslaved and where they will be sold

I just reread it & I don't recall several passages (I wasn't looking for them either) I do recall her saying something like "This is the price for the Iron Throne" - in an attempt to harden her heart against what she was witnessing & another passage in which Jorah talks about telling Drogo he should sell the slaves in Mereen because he would get a higher price. So, yeah she knew at that point, if not before, that slaves were going to be sold to fund their trip but I don't know how that makes her responsible for what they did in Lhazareen. 

[corbon]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Drogo giving in to her demand about the Lhazareen women she takes as her own slaves and that if a Dothraki sleeps with a woman he should marry her in front of his bloodriders, the khal he took prisoner and everybody else disproves your assertions. Drogo is listening to her.

Listening to her or humouring her? 
I'm not sure we can tell the difference. From cultural context, I think humouring her fits better, but maybe he is really listening to her. Or a bit of both most likely.
On the other hand this is after she has acted to change his sexual habits, after she is pregnant, after she stood up to Viserys, after she ate the Stallion heart and is carrying "the stallion who mounts the world", after he killed Viserys, so its quite reasonable that he be listening to her as much or more than humouring her by now.
I think, given all that has happened between them, there is likely still an element of humouring her, but also a significant element of listening to her.

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Oh, there are several passages that Dany knows and recognizes why the Lhazareen had to be attacked. By the time she rides into the devestated town she knows exactly why it was attacked and why the people are enslaved and where they will be sold.

Knowing in the abstract is one thing. Knowing is another. I really think she had no real conception of what the abstract entailed in reality, and I think that thats obvious, from her reaction to the reality.
She truly is a sheltered 14 yr old girl with little or no real world experience. She's developing personal strength, through her experiences, but she's still naive about others than herself almost entirely.

I think she does extraordinarily well, really.

[Lord Varys]

At first Dany is just Drogo's little sex toy to him, hardly better than a trophy (slave) wife who is going to give him Valyrian-looking children.

After they have their sex thing he starts to see her with different eyes - as a human being, perhaps - and he falls in love with her/enjoys their sex more.

But they were never equals in any way, always just master and slave. He only agrees to conquer Westeros for his son - Aerys II's grandson - not to put his wife on the Iron Throne (that would be ridiculous). Even as late as the attack on the Lhazareen Drogo doesn't take Dany seriously as a person - he humors her because his son - the Stallion that Mounts the World - in her belly fuels her fury. In his eyes Dany's own fury doesn't exist, it is just Rhaego in her belly that makes her act aggressive.

How precarious their position with the Dothraki was can be drawn from Jorah's fear that Viserys behavior at the feast in Vaes Dothrak could get them all killed.

Dany had less influence over Drogo than Cersei ever had over Robert. She didn't even convince Drogo to invade Westeros - that were Varys/Illyrio with their assassination plot.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

@Lord Varys I agree. Out of curiosity what is your position where Dany & MMD are concerned? 

[Lord Varys]

58 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

@Lord Varys I agree. Out of curiosity what is your position where Dany & MMD are concerned? 

Dany tried to help as best she could. Blaming the person who tries her best to save her is basically a mad dog biting the hand who feeds him. One certainly can understand Mirri's hatred of the Dothraki but transferring that to the degree she did to Dany is wrong. It is akin to a Kevan or Martyn Lannister blaming Robb Stark for the murder of Willem Lannister at Rickard Karstark's hand despite the fact that he never condoned that action and actually punished the guilty party afterwards - or akin to Lord Rickard blaming Willem and Tion for the deaths of his sons at the hand of Jaime after said son actually chose to act as Robb's bodyguards in battle (which would put them in a precarious position).

It smells a lot like lashing out/striking the easiest/weakest target, and that's always a shitty thing to do.

I can understand Mirri wishing Drogo dead - although it is still unclear whether the poultices she used on Drogo were poisoned or not. It is ambiguous - she could have poisoned them and that caused Drogo to complain about them, or they were working and Drogo complaining about the pain and ripping them off and trying other things instead is what caused the wounds to go bad, or neither Mirri nor other Dothraki physicians could deal with this kind of wound (magic aside) because it was infected from the start. I could certainly understand why she would want him dead.

If she actually treated him properly then this would only reinforce the idea that she struck at the weakest target - the one who tried to help rather than the people who actually harmed her and her people - because she apparently dared not to betray a strong Drogo but had no problem betraying Daenerys.

But the whole game she played with Dany and her fears later on, using her unborn child as sacrifice and (possibly) frying Drogo's brain in the process of her spell - that is ambiguous, too, since we don't know whether the spell healed a dying Drogo or whether it resurrected him (if the latter were the case, then she may not have fried his brain, but if the former was the case then Drogo was still himself when the spell started and only lost his mind and personality due to the spell) - is just very ugly business.

She had won the trust of Dany and could have stayed with her later on to help make Rhaego into a good man who would not attack and enslave the Lhazareen people.

She basically behaves like an Osha who drowns the crippled Bran in the pool by the heart tree. She had every reason to hate the Starks, too, but she overcame that hatred, unlike Mirri Maz Duur.

We certainly are supposed to sympathize with Mirri up to a point ... but only up to a point.

[X-Buster]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think MMD had good reason to hate Drogo, Daenerys, and Rhaego, and to leave the one comatose, the other destitute, and to destroy Rhaego, in order to keep Drogo alive, but a vegetable.   And, Daenerys had good reason to hate her, in turn.  MMD after all claimed the credit for the condition of Drogo and the destruction of Rhaego.  

MMD had somewhat justifiable reason to hate Drogo.  She had absolutely no justification to hate Daenerys and Rhaego.  It matters not who Daenerys is.  That Daenerys showed compassion towards MMD should have excluded her from the witch's hate.  It is unfortunate, MMD is human and while she appears calm and collected, she is not above grief.  Grief made her indiscriminate.  MMD was mad with grief.  She let the hate come out and hurt the one person who showed her compassion.  MMD and Stoneheart have a lot in common.  Both may think it's justice they do but in the end, it was nothing but hate and revenge. 

MMD took responsibility for what happened to Drogo.  She confessed to murdering Rhaego.  That is an admission of guilt.  A confession, delivered with venom and spite.  MMD was a hateful woman.  She deserved her punishment.  Most of the powerful people in this story would have done worse to her if she had killed their favorite child.  Think of what Tywin, Stannis, Robert, Balon, Manderly, and Doran would do if this witch had killed their favorite child.  They would have tortured her for days and months before letting her die in agony.  Manderly would have eaten her remains.  MMD deserved to burn.  I agree with Daenerys in burning MMD. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany tried to help as best she could. Blaming the person who tries her best to save her is basically a mad dog biting the hand who feeds him. One certainly can understand Mirri's hatred of the Dothraki but transferring that to the degree she did to Dany is wrong. It is akin to a Kevan or Martyn Lannister blaming Robb Stark for the murder of Willem Lannister at Rickard Karstark's hand despite the fact that he never condoned that action and actually punished the guilty party afterwards - or akin to Lord Rickard blaming Willem and Tion for the deaths of his sons at the hand of Jaime after said son actually chose to act as Robb's bodyguards in battle (which would put them in a precarious position).

It smells a lot like lashing out/striking the easiest/weakest target, and that's always a shitty thing to do.

I can understand Mirri wishing Drogo dead - although it is still unclear whether the poultices she used on Drogo were poisoned or not. It is ambiguous - she could have poisoned them and that caused Drogo to complain about them, or they were working and Drogo complaining about the pain and ripping them off and trying other things instead is what caused the wounds to go bad, or neither Mirri nor other Dothraki physicians could deal with this kind of wound (magic aside) because it was infected from the start. I could certainly understand why she would want him dead.

If she actually treated him properly then this would only reinforce the idea that she struck at the weakest target - the one who tried to help rather than the people who actually harmed her and her people - because she apparently dared not to betray a strong Drogo but had no problem betraying Daenerys.

But the whole game she played with Dany and her fears later on, using her unborn child as sacrifice and (possibly) frying Drogo's brain in the process of her spell - that is ambiguous, too, since we don't know whether the spell healed a dying Drogo or whether it resurrected him (if the latter were the case, then she may not have fried his brain, but if the former was the case then Drogo was still himself when the spell started and only lost his mind and personality due to the spell) - is just very ugly business.

She had won the trust of Dany and could have stayed with her later on to help make Drogo into a good man who would not attack and enslave the Lhazareen people.

She basically behaves like an Osha who drowns the crippled Bran in the pool by the heart tree. She had every reason to hate the Starks, too, but she overcame that hatred, unlike Mirri Maz Duur.

We certainly are supposed to sympathize with Mirri up to a point ... but only up to a point.

Yeah I agree 100% - we are 2 for 2 today!  

It is interesting to think on what MMD did or didn't do in regards to Drogo. On one hand she had every reason to hate him & want to harm him so why try to heal him unless it was a ploy? And on the other, like you said, if she really was trying to heal him it only drives home the point that she was being extra shitty by lashing out at Daenerys, who tried to help her, rather than the one who actually holds blame here. 

I never thought about whether she healed a dying Drogo or resurrected a dead Drogo. That's something to ponder. 

I get all tangled up in whether or not she did anything to Rhaego also. She implies it was Rhaego's life that paid for Drogo's (or at the very least someone's life did because she says it wasn't only the horse) when Dany accuses her of it, she does not deny it. BUT Jorah walked Dany into the tent after MMD said not to & Dany herself thinks this had something to do with it. If Rhaego died because Dany got carried into the tent though, then whose life paid for Drogos? Was it the horse all along & MMD is lying to hurt Dany? Or did she kill Rhaego with some dark magic & Dany being carried into the tent was only a coincidence? 

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I get all tangled up in whether or not she did anything to Rhaego also. She implies it was Rhaego's life that paid for Drogo's (or at the very least someone's life did because she says it wasn't only the horse) when Dany accuses her of it, she does not deny it. BUT Jorah walked Dany into the tent after MMD said not to & Dany herself thinks this had something to do with it. If Rhaego died because Dany got carried into the tent though, then whose life paid for Drogos? Was it the horse all along & MMD is lying to hurt Dany? Or did she kill Rhaego with some dark magic & Dany being carried into the tent was only a coincidence? 

That is tangled up somewhat, and pretty ambiguous, too. I guess one can take the apparent start of the birth as a sign that the spell and whatever ghosts or demons Mirri summoned (the shadows Dany saw in the tent) reaching out to claim Rhaego ... but one could also just take it as a sudden arrival of the birth due to all the stress she had to go through.

If an animal sacrifice could bring back or heal a human being then we should see animal sacrifices happen much more often in healing or resurrection spells (just as we should see both of them happening much more often since life/health would come pretty cheap then).

And what Mirri later says essentially confirms that she deliberately killed Rhaego. That he was the sacrifice to bring back or heal Drogo. There is a small chance that she may have lied there ... but why should she? It would have been much more painful to Dany if she had blamed Dany herself for Rhaego's death by pointing out that she should have never returned into the tent. She could have said that the ghosts/demons did it, that she could not protect the unborn child from them after Dany had been brought back into the tent. That could have made Dany's suffering even worse.

Instead she really wanted to gloat.

And there is the fact that Dany is completely cut off from Rhaego, only remembering him pretty late after she wakes up again. This indicates that Mirri may have been right that Dany subconsciously knew that Rhaego was the price for Drogo's return - or at least that Dany already knew by that time subconsciously that Rhaego was already dead - claimed as a sacrifice by the spell against her will while he was still in her body.

Those things are domino stones that have to fall for Dany to be able to pull of the dragon-hatching thing. Mirri Maz Duur is at best the 'lubricant' or fuel for this huge spell thing. She means nothing to Dany, is no proper sacrifice. She sacrificed three people for her three dragons - first her brother Viserys III at Vaes Dothrak, then her unborn son Rhaego, and finally her husband Drogo. There is a reason why the dragons are later named Viserion, Rhaegal, and Drogon. She didn't really want to do that - but it happened. And when she lost Rhaego and saw what had become of Drogo she understood what she had to do next.

When George talks about this whole 'singular event thing' that was the dragon-hatching thing he basically means Dany's entire story in AGoT up to that point. Only a person who has made those sacrifices (or has suffered those losses) can pull off a spell like that.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

An attempt that wasn't requested by the Iron Throne, but by the wizards who served the Undying at Qarth. Or better yet, the people trying to kill her next are th Dothraki themselves.

Drogo giving in to her demand about the Lhazareen women she takes as her own slaves and that if a Dothraki sleeps with a woman he should marry her in front of his bloodriders, the khal he took prisoner and everybody else disproves your assertions. Drogo is listening to her.

Oh, there are several passages that Dany knows and recognizes why the Lhazareen had to be attacked. By the time she rides into the devestated town she knows exactly why it was attacked and why the people are enslaved and where they will be sold.

You overstate her power.  Yes, she wanted Drogo to take the Iron Throne (anyone would in her position), and asked him to ride West. But the decision to fight was his alone.   She was no party to whatever was discussed or agreed between Drogo, Illyrio, and Viserys.  Nor was she, in any realistic sense, an equal partner in their marriage.  Her status was that of a chattel, who Drogo came to love.  On occasion, she asked him to ride West, but that's a pretty thin basis upon which to indict her for the murder, rape, and enslavement at MMD's village.  He indulged her at the village is all.  He certainly wasn't discussing strategies with her or giving her a role in command.