Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

[The Commentator]

Harvesting the weak and selling them to the slavers is the Dothraki economy.  They have been doing this for a long time.  They would have taken those villagers even if Drogo had no intention of taking the Iron Throne back from the Usurper and his dogs.  Khaleesi was not in a position at this point to change the Dothraki.  She was only beginning to understand their ways.  It is not reasonable to expect her to have the power to stop the raid.  

Mirri Maaz Dur had a grudge against Drogo and the Dothraki who committed the raid; but she does not have any justification to harm Prince Rhaego.  She admitted to the murders, hell, even boasted about it.  Boasted of witchcraft.  Witches get burned at the stake.  And this witch is guilty, unlike some that get burned.  

[Therae]

Tyrion told Jaime he killed Joffrey specifically to hurt him for lying about Tysha. I don't see much difference between that and Mirri telling Dany why she wasn't sorry Rhaego was dead. Tyrion did not actually kill Joffrey, and I don't think Mirri killed Rhaego, either. But, from Mirri's perspective, Dany saved her from further rape by claiming her as a slave (I feel like this is overlooked--it was the only thing Dany could have done, but Mirri was rescued by virtue of being her property), whereupon she did what she could for Drogo, but he didn't follow her advice, and when Dany told her to fix it, despite the cost, and despite a potentially undesirable outcome, she did that, too--and she did tell Dany to stay out of the tent, but Jorah brought her in. And after doing everything she could (unsuccessfully, and that because her directions were ignored) to save a horselord she would have rather seen dead, and delivering a baby horselord she would rather never be born, Dany thinks Mirri betrayed her. Maybe Mirri's attitude at that point is, "you actually think you're the one suffering and I'm the ungrateful one?"

Mirri is gloating over vegetable!Drogo and deadlizard!Rhaego, but I think it's that despite her own efforts, she got the results she would have wished for, not because she successfully worked towards them, and she probably lost any appreciation she may have had for Dany when Dany blamed her for it.

I'm not saying Mirri has any moral high ground; I'm just saying that from her perspective, the pot is calling the kettle black and the pot can have at it for all she cares anymore.

It's either that, or Mirri is a Littlefinger-level schemer who managed to engineer the deaths of both Drogo and his unborn son with the power of reverse psychology and information manipulation theory, and then laughs in Dany's face about it.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

25 minutes ago, Therae said:

Tyrion told Jaime he killed Joffrey specifically to hurt him for lying about Tysha. I don't see much difference between that and Mirri telling Dany why she wasn't sorry Rhaego was dead. Tyrion did not actually kill Joffrey, and I don't think Mirri killed Rhaego, either. But, from Mirri's perspective, Dany saved her from further rape by claiming her as a slave (I feel like this is overlooked--it was the only thing Dany could have done, but Mirri was rescued by virtue of being her property), whereupon she did what she could for Drogo, but he didn't follow her advice, and when Dany told her to fix it, despite the cost, and despite a potentially undesirable outcome, she did that, too--and she did tell Dany to stay out of the tent, but Jorah brought her in. And after doing everything she could (unsuccessfully, and that because her directions were ignored) to save a horselord she would have rather seen dead, and delivering a baby horselord she would rather never be born, Dany thinks Mirri betrayed her. Maybe Mirri's attitude at that point is, "you actually think you're the one suffering and I'm the ungrateful one?"

Mirri is gloating over vegetable!Drogo and deadlizard!Rhaego, but I think it's that despite her own efforts, she got the results she would have wished for, not because she successfully worked towards them, and she probably lost any appreciation she may have had for Dany when Dany blamed her for it.

I'm not saying Mirri has any moral high ground; I'm just saying that from her perspective, the pot is calling the kettle black and the pot can have at it for all she cares anymore.

It's either that, or Mirri is a Littlefinger-level schemer who managed to engineer the deaths of both Drogo and his unborn son with the power of reverse psychology and information manipulation theory, and then laughs in Dany's face about it.

The counter argument to Mirri not purposefully doing anything to Rhaego or Drogo is that Mirri specifically tells Dany it was not the horses life that paid for Drogos. Someone up thread said, & I agree that if we could use an animals life to heal or resurrect the dead people would be doing it all over the place. Not to mention if it is only the horse what makes it so dark? Why would some say "death is cleaner"? Not only that but if Mirri's intentions were to hurt Daenerys, wouldn't it be more hurtful to Dany if Mirri told her it was her fault the baby died? Because even after Mirri said don't come in the tent, Dany got carried into the tent. 

Another thing to ponder on is if Mirri is hurt or angry enough with Dany (who stopped her rape & abuse) to claim she took the life of her loved ones isn't helping the man who actually killed all her people a little out of place there? Why genuinely help to heal Drogo but be angry with Dany? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

31 minutes ago, Therae said:

either that, or Mirri is a Littlefinger-level schemer who managed to engineer the deaths of both Drogo and his unborn son with the power of reverse psychology and information manipulation theory, and then laughs in Dany's face about it

I don't think it requires all that. It only requires infecting Drogo with her poultice & using Rhaego as a blood sacrifice to heal Drogo. No reverse psychology or theories. 

[kissdbyfire]

51 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The counter argument to Mirri not purposefully doing anything to Rhaego or Drogo is that Mirri specifically tells Dany it was not the horses life that paid for Drogos. Someone up thread said, & I agree that if we could use an animals life to heal or resurrect the dead people would be doing it all over the place. Not to mention if it is only the horse what makes it so dark? Why would some say "death is cleaner"? Not only that but if Mirri's intentions were to hurt Daenerys, wouldn't it be more hurtful to Dany if Mirri told her it was her fault the baby died? Because even after Mirri said don't come in the tent, Dany got carried into the tent. 

Another thing to ponder on is if Mirri is hurt or angry enough with Dany (who stopped her rape & abuse) to claim she took the life of her loved ones isn't helping the man who actually killed all her people a little out of place there? Why genuinely help to heal Drogo but be angry with Dany? 

I agree w/ @Therae here. Matter of fact, what s/he said is basically what I think happened irt Mirri being guilty of killing Drogo and Rhaego or not. That said, I do think it’s possible she did use a bit of reverse psychology w/ Drogo, but we can also call it a sort of wishful thinking. She prescribed the correct treatment, but I think it’s not far-fetched to think she hoped he wouldn’t follow the instructions of an old slave of the Lamb people to the letter. She may even have made the poultice itchier than it had to be, just to nudge Drogo in the “right” direction, ie, not use it and die of septicaemia. And later, again, she played no direct part in Rhaego’s death, apart from wishing it. She was very clear when she gave instructions, and she can’t be blamed for said instructions not being followed. Was she sad things turned out this way? Of course not. But then she basically takes credit for all of it, out of spite and a desire to make Dany suffer even more. And of course, Martin writes it in a way that leaves lots of room for interpretation. But the bottom line for me is, can we be sure everything would have gone down exactly the same had Drogo followed her instructions? And the answer is, “no”. My 2p worth. 

[corbon]

18 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I'm really not sure why I'm discussing this,

It appeared to be a triggered reflex. 

Since then you've continual argued against a bunch of things I didn't say.

18 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

but the emergence of Christianity two thousand years ago did not make any appreciable difference in excersise of warfare. It served as an excuse for it as much as anything else did. The early church in particular reached what constitutes modern dogma by exterminating anyone who had a different understanding of it. 

Generally speaking non Christian people did not always do the worst they could nor did Christian peoples refrain from it.

I didn't say, or suggest, anything different to that. 

18 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

As for the spread of the rule of Law (and Christianity for that matter) you might want to check those nasty Romans you are so dismissive about.

Romans were big on law, and laid the foundation, but their ethical code still allowed them to happily and freely commit genocide and rape as part of war.

Its the late maturation of judeo-christian ethics applied to both law and personal behaviour that changed that. Look at the 30yrs war, for example - christian on christian, as brutal a nasty piece of war as you'd like to see. Those in charge weren't applying judeo-christian ethics to the law or their own actions, for all their superficial adherences.
But 200 odd years later, rape, in particular, was becoming less and less a part of european warfare to the point where soldiers can be executed for it (though a successful siege assault in particular still tended to have a brutal aftermath). 

18 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Of course the unavoidable question would be who exactly is this occupant of this moral highgound who emerged and saved the world from those nasty heathens. Hmm? 

???

The point was, Dany was being judged by some based on 21st century judeo-christian based ethical values. But she was operating in a cultural context more like Attila the Hun, with little or no power to change that, and having been sheltered from the worst effects of it her whole, short life.

While the Dothraki are deliberately portrayed as more brutal than 'normal', in truth, their brutality is very close to what has been 'normal' for most cultures throughout human history. At least ones with that much power.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

23 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree w/ @Therae here. Matter of fact, what s/he said is basically what I think happened irt Mirri being guilty of killing Drogo and Rhaego or not. That said, I do think it’s possible she did use a bit of reverse psychology w/ Drogo, but we can also call it a sort of wishful thinking. She prescribed the correct treatment, but I think it’s not far-fetched to think she hoped he wouldn’t follow the instructions of an old slave of the Lamb people to the letter. She may even have made the poultice itchier than it had to be, just to nudge Drogo in the “right” direction, ie, not use it and die of septicaemia. And later, again, she played no direct part in Rhaego’s death, apart from wishing it. She was very clear when she gave instructions, and she can’t be blamed for said instructions not being followed. Was she sad things turned out this way? Of course not. But then she basically takes credit for all of it, out of spite and a desire to make Dany suffer even more. And of course, Martin writes it in a way that leaves lots of room for interpretation. But the bottom line for me is, can we be sure everything would have gone down exactly the same had Drogo followed her instructions? And the answer is, “no”. My 2p worth. 

Yeah for sure. It's written to make us question it I think & I'm not absolutely sure one way or the other but I do think there are good arguments for both. 

[Therae]

8 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah for sure. It's written to make us question it I think & I'm not absolutely sure one way or the other but I do think there are good arguments for both. 

(Actually responding a bit more to your replies prior to this one, but I agree with this statement, and also it's closer  )

I don't think the plan up front was necessarily to hurt Dany--I think Mirri's saying cruel things to hurt Dany in something like a knee-jerk, because after she's done whatever she can to save Drogo and deliver Rhaego--contrary to her own wishes, and really Dany ought not to expect her to have any actual goodwill towards Drogo or even sympathy for Rhaego--most likely she's tried to help in good faith out of gratitude to Dany because she realizes Dany intended to do her a kindness, and then Dany pretty much failed to recognize any of that. After all she's been through at this point, I think that was the straw that broke the camel's back, and so, while she did try to save the guy who was way more responsible (N.B.: I REAAAALLLLLYYYYYY like @kissdbyfire's thought that Mirri still gave Drogo lots of opportunity to screw up her good work), she had zero fs left for the woman who expects her to be grateful for the protection of slavery after her village has been slaughtered and does not see that she probably wouldn't have tried to save Drogo if she hadn't been.

Dany has always been convinced that Mirri was the betrayal for blood, but I think she's wrong. I don't think Mirri could really be said to have betrayed her at all.

As for the horse, who even knows what that was for--I can't think of anywhere else we've seen blood magic where the death paying for life could be an animal's. But maybe she genuinely tried, and got Veggie!Drogo; maybe if she had used a person, it would have been RageZombie!Drogo or Stoneheart!Drogo. I wouldn't bet on Rhaego having been the price, or even inadvertently paying it; he may have been lizarded just by proximity to what was already going on in that tent--also, I don't think the same death can pay for two lives, and there is reason to believe that Rhaego was one of the deaths that paid for the birth of the dragons.

I don't know that we'll ever find out any of this for sure (unless things unfold and a clear betrayal comes along that makes Dany realize she was wrong about MMD, or it never does, and it turns out she was right). Meanwhile, lots of room for interpretation. 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Therae said:

Dany has always been convinced that Mirri was the betrayal for blood, but I think she's wrong

Agree w/ all you said. And here twice as much, Mirri wasn’t the betrayal for blood. 

[SeanF]

My view is, if you're innocent, don't give the opposite impression to the one person who tried to rescue you.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, SeanF said:

My view is, if you're innocent, don't give the opposite impression to the one person who tried to rescue you.

I think it depends. On your personality, your disposition, events surrounding the situation, so on and so forth. As @Therae  brought up - and nicely done btw - Mirri’s situation is similar to Tyrion “confessing” to Jaime that he killed Joffrey. Spite can be a very powerful motivator, given the right circumstances. 

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think it depends. On your personality, your disposition, events surrounding the situation, so on and so forth. As @Therae  brought up - and nicely done btw - Mirri’s situation is similar to Tyrion “confessing” to Jaime that he killed Joffrey. Spite can be a very powerful motivator, given the right circumstances. 

Spite is a big motivator, but Tyrion is a very vicious creature, by this stage.

Daenerys was a good target for a woman who had every reason to hate the Khalasar, if not her personally.

[Therae]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think it depends. On your personality, your disposition, events surrounding the situation, so on and so forth... Spite can be a very powerful motivator, given the right circumstances. 

Especially if you really feel like the person accusing you of something (or in the case of Jaime, even asking) really ought to know better. It's not always logical, it's certainly not in anyone's best interest, but we don't always do what we ought to, especially under duress.

@SeanF - it's great advice, but characters (or people) don't always do what's good for them.

[The Mother of The Others]

It's weird, right? now that we hear of a connection between Mirri and Marwyn.  How can Marwyn be cool with what went down?   Even though i want him to be the Merlin to dany's Arthur, this mirri shit seems to portend his stint with Danny won't go any better than Maz Dur's!

Are we supposed to believe mirri and marwyn are playing a long con here?   Marwyn will find a dragon really receptive to him riding it because that dragon contains the spirit of his loyal servant mirri?   She gets to live as Fire, he gets to weild it.    That's if the dragon eggs were even on her mind at all when Mirri got herself executed.  

On the surface, based on her face acting, it was either a botched magic surgery or simple revenge, to make Dannee suffer for the town's suffering.   Any deeper motive on her part to wake the dragons on purpose is..... just a conspiracy theory still, even with the marwyn connection.

Remember when Annikan Skywalker was told to stay away from the senate building as the jedi arrested the emperor?   That reminds me of danny being told to stay out of the tent during the soul transfer.   Neither Vader nor Stormborn could stay away, they were both in the midst of an emotional bind that twisted away at them until they broke their orders.  The emperor put Annikan in that position on purpose....  I can easily picture Mirri knowing in advance that she could create a shadow show worrisome enough that Daenerys would find it impossible to stay out of the tent.  Her need to see what all the weirdness was doing to her family was....predictable.   Did Mirri talk the Khalisi into voodoo knowing the ceremony would be fouled?     I think so.

In Mirri's best possible world, Danny would have blamed herself fully for the tragedy and Mirri would have walked away from a broken queen unscathed.   But she was also ready to pay the price for revenge if required.  

So.... mirri got the magic swirling in the air..... and put Danny into a situation that brought out Stormy's true fiery soul of rage and turmoil and conquest and blood and fire......and Danny then behaved her way into waking dragons the way the first dragonlords must have figured this stuff out long ago.... by intuiting their way through the magic.  Part luck, part experimentation, and part of it is having a fiesty human spirit the dragon eggs resonate with, to the point the lil' dragon eggs wanna quicken so they can join mommy on the other side of the eggshell. 

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

10 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Harvesting the weak and selling them to the slavers is the Dothraki economy.  They have been doing this for a long time.  They would have taken those villagers even if Drogo had no intention of taking the Iron Throne back from the Usurper and his dogs.  Khaleesi was not in a position at this point to change the Dothraki.  She was only beginning to understand their ways.  It is not reasonable to expect her to have the power to stop the raid.  

Mirri Maaz Dur had a grudge against Drogo and the Dothraki who committed the raid; but she does not have any justification to harm Prince Rhaego.  She admitted to the murders, hell, even boasted about it.  Boasted of witchcraft.  Witches get burned at the stake.  And this witch is guilty, unlike some that get burned.  

Correct, when a vindictive person openly, willingly, and boastfully admits to a crime then any reasonable person would consider it a closed case.  Mirri murdered a Targaryen prince.  Who happened to be innocent.  A newborn child is as innocent as one can get.  Contrast this to Tywin Lannister.  All Vargo did was cut the hand of a lord's son, just a lord's son.  Jaime is worth 1/10,000 as Prince Rhaego and less than the undefeated Khal Drogo.  Vargo was tortured and killed.  For a hand!  Stumpy is not the equal of Prince Rhaego.  Jon Snow killed Janos Slynt for the man's minor role in Ned's execution.  And Ned is just a lord.  Rhaego is a Targaryen prince.  Khal Drogo is the strongest of the khals.  Mirri's crimes were serious.  Stannis burned Rattleshirt for being a Wildling.  He burned his own soldiers, for pete's sake!  Arya murdered men who have done her no harm. None.  They were no threat.  The Sand Snakes would have made her suffer and kept her alive for years on end if she had hurt one of them.  We don't even need to mention Ramsay.

Burning is cruel.  I will not deny that.  I might have preferred if Daenerys had ordered Rakharo or Jorah to decap Mirri Maz Duur and been done with it.  Daenerys is a calculating girl and she knew she needed blood magic.  It's all part of the three, treason leads to death of a loved man, which leads to the traitor getting executed by fire.  MmD killed her son and husband.  Made her womb wither and took away one of the things a woman valued most. The ability to have children.  The only person in the story who might forgive MmD enough to give her a quick death was Ned.  And that is a maybe.  

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Archmaester Marwyn is a hard man who has traveled a lot.  He is not going to have any problem with MmD getting executed.  After all, it was a just execution.  

[Rose of Red Lake]

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not only that but if Mirri's intentions were to hurt Daenerys, wouldn't it be more hurtful to Dany if Mirri told her it was her fault the baby died? Because even after Mirri said don't come in the tent, Dany got carried into the tent. 

Well she kind of did hurt her by saying it was her fault, that she knew all along, and that she was lying to herself. Dany’s repetitive “Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost” reaction is GRRM’s style of subtle writing to suggest she was indeed suppressing a hard truth. She was determined to cheat death and Mirri offered her services. Mirri became the saltiest when Dany expected magic to work out perfectly. I imagine Mirri was fed up with this girl who thought magic was like some kind of banking transaction. Dany knew deep down it wasn’t going to be simple, she just wished it was. 

Post Fire and Blood, I wonder if Dany’s child may have been a natural stillbirth. The stillbirths keep coming up - why? Is it a statement to vindicate Mirri? Rhaenyra’s child appeared to be “living” during the birth but actually wasn’t:

Quote

“The child had not been due for another turn of the moon, but the tidings from King’s Landing had driven the princess into a black fury, and her rage seemed to bring on the birth, as if the babe inside her were angry too, and fighting to get out”

“When the babe at last came forth, she proved indeed a monster: a stillborn girl, twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been, and a stubby, scaled tail.”

like Dany’s...using a misleading sign that the child was alive:

Quote

“Another pain grasped her, and Dany bit back a scream. It felt as if her son had a knife in each hand, as if he were hacking at her to cut his way out.”

I think Rhaego may have been dead even before the tent. Dany’s account of her child’s health is untrustworthy. Usually marked with a “If I look back I am lost“ which she thinks SEVEN times across those two chapters alone - most notably in the moment when she accuses Mirri of cheating her (meaning, that’s probably false). She doesn’t want to face any consequences for her actions.

[Rose of Red Lake]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

My view is, if you're innocent, don't give the opposite impression to the one person who tried to rescue you.

Mirri probably thought Dany could handle some hard truths about magical resurrection, and why people hated the Dothraki. Clearly she couldn’t. Dany burning her alive surprised her because she begged for her life. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Mirri probably thought Dany could handle some hard truths about magical resurrection, and why people hated the Dothraki. Clearly she couldn’t. Dany burning her alive surprised her because she begged for her life. 

I probably would not expect a woman who had just lost a child to react terribly well if I said to her " You and your husband and the baby deserved it".

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I probably would not expect a woman who had just lost a child to react terribly well if I said to her " You and your husband and the baby deserved it".

If Dany can’t handle some terrible bedside manner she’ll wilt like a lily in Westeros. Her husband was a piece of shit. Her child was likely already dead. She is deflecting her own actions all over that book.