Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If Dany can’t handle some terrible bedside manner she’ll wilt like a lily in Westeros. Her husband was a piece of shit. Her child was likely already dead. She is deflecting her own actions all over that book.

My advice would be don't pursue a career in medicine.☺️

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 hours ago, Therae said:

I don't think the plan up front was necessarily to hurt Dany--I think Mirri's saying cruel things to hurt Dany in something like a knee-jerk, because after she's done whatever she can to save Drogo and deliver Rhaego--contrary to her own wishes, and really Dany ought not to expect her to have any actual goodwill towards Drogo or even sympathy for Rhaego--most likely she's tried to help in good faith out of gratitude to Dany because she realizes Dany intended to do her a kindness, and then Dany pretty much failed to recognize any of that.

Possibly. The text is conflicting on this matter & left open to interpretation. Likely we will never get a true answer to this. I really go back & forth about it but what keeps dragging me to the other side is I just don't believe that a horse can be the "death" that pays for life & if this is the case then Mirri always knew the death would be Rhaego's, which pretty much destroys any thought of her meaning to do good. 

We have to remember also that Dany did not expect her to do whatever she could to help Drogo - Mirri offered up her services. In fact Dany asks her, begs her to find a way to save him - not an expectation at all but a plea. 

She could have been angry at Dany's suggestion that she purposefully did something to mess things up but Dany doesn't really fail to recognize what she has done for her, she didn't successfully do anything good for her regardless of her intentions. Daenerys probably should have been grateful to the maegi for stepping up & offering her services to the Khal to begin with, but considering how things turned out & the things Mirri claimed one can understand why Dany wouldn't have been.  Dany says to Mirri in regards to Rhaego's death:

"You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse." 

                                         "No," Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price."

Seems proof positive that MMD knowingly paid for Drogo's life with Rhaego's death & Mirri doesn't seem particularly angry when Dany says this to her, doesn't show any bitterness to indicate she is offended by Dany's suggestion that Rhaego was the price. She just answers matter-of-factly. 

Prior to this though it is very much suggested by Dany & Mirri that coming into the tent was the babies demise:

Quote

 

"My son... Rhaego... where is he? I want him."

                                      Her handmaid lowered her eyes. "The boy... he did not live, Khaleesi." Her voice was a frightened whisper

 

Quote

 

"Tell me how my child died." 

                                      "He never lived, my princess. The women say..." He faltered, and Dany saw how the flesh hung loose on him, and the way he limped when he moved.

                                     "Tell me. Tell me what the women say."

                                      "They say the child was..."

 "Monstrous," Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. 

"Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small, leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years." 

                           "My son was alive and strong when Ser Jorah carried me into this tent," she said. "I could feel him kicking, fighting to be born."

"That may be as it may be," answered Mirri Maz Durr, "yet the creature that came forth from your womb was as I said. Death was in that tent, Khaleesi."

 

 

Very conflicting IMO. IF Mirri intended to kill the child & being carried into the tent is what killed him then that requires a level of psychic ability we have not seen possessed. There is just no way for Mirri to have known Jorah would bring her into the tent. Even if something Mirri did in the tent set Dany into labor, requiring Mirri's services, there would be no way to guarantee Dany wouldn't be able to tell Jorah not to take her into the tent. 

If Mirri intended to kill Rhaego & did so with some blood magic & being in the tent was not necessary then it is very coincidental that Dany got carried into the tent thus giving Mirri a ready made excuse for the babies death. 

If she needed Rhaego in the tent she could have just told Dany she needed to stay in the tent with her. Instead she warns her against it.

I just don't know. I go around & around in circles about it. The only possible answer I can see us getting is if maybe Marwyn gives us some information on what is required in a sacrifice. Something like, an animal sacrifice will only heal the body but not the soul or a human sacrifice is needed to do the spell. So, maybe at the very least we will get some information on what Mirri likely knew in regards to the magic. 

12 hours ago, Therae said:

After all she's been through at this point, I think that was the straw that broke the camel's back, and so, while she did try to save the guy who was way more responsible (N.B.: I REAAAALLLLLYYYYYY like @kissdbyfire's thought that Mirri still gave Drogo lots of opportunity to screw up her good work), she had zero fs left for the woman who expects her to be grateful for the protection of slavery after her village has been slaughtered and does not see that she probably wouldn't have tried to save Drogo if she hadn't been.

It's all so vague. Mirri absolutely could have made Drogo's poultice exactly the way it should be made & had Drogo not screwed it all up he would have lived. Or like KBF says, maybe she left something out so that it wouldn't necessarily not heal him but would drive him nuts while he was wearing it. OR she made the poultice from the beginning with the sole intention on infecting him. 

On the outside it appears obvious that Drogo's wound would become infected when he shoves mud in it but his healers are not unexperienced in the tending of wounds so this likely has a good effect in universe, at least most of the time. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Well she kind of did hurt her by saying it was her fault, that she knew all along, and that she was lying to herself. Dany’s repetitive “Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost” reaction is GRRM’s style of subtle writing to suggest she was indeed suppressing a hard truth. She was determined to cheat death and Mirri offered her services.

Indeed. It would remove any blame from Mirri & lay the blame with Daenerys if Mirri had claimed (truthfully or otherwise) that Dany & Rhaego being brought into the tent, not only killed Rhaego but also botched the blood magic causing Drogo to be a vegetable though. 

I think Mirri didn't want that though because she was trying to teach Dany a lesson - what is left of life when nothing else remains. That lesson would be lost on Daenerys if she believed the magic would have worked if not for her own mishap. 

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Mirri became the saltiest when Dany expected magic to work out perfectly. I imagine Mirri was fed up with this girl who thought magic was like some kind of banking transaction. Dany knew deep down it wasn’t going to be simple, she just wished it was. 

I don't know, I don't recall Dany expecting the magic to work out perfectly at all. She knew it was dark, what she was asking Mirri to do, & afterwards she said I paid & paid & paid (the price). I think what she expected was for Drogo to be as he was but that isn't really expecting it to work out perfectly, after all she has lost her son & several others so it was a far cry from perfect. 

You are the 2nd or 3rd poster to say Mirri got angry or bitter when Dany questioned Rhaegos life paying for Drogos but I just don't see that in the text. Can you quote the line/s that are giving you that impression? 

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Post Fire and Blood, I wonder if Dany’s child may have been a natural stillbirth. The stillbirths keep coming up - why? Is it a statement to vindicate Mirri? Rhaenyra’s child appeared to be “living” during the birth but actually wasn’t:

Right, I don't know what role they play but they do keep coming up & are curious. 

It does seem coincidental & redundant though doesn't it? For the suggestion to be that Rhaego died because Jorah unknowingly carried Dany into the tent, the suggestion that Mirri used Rhaego as the sacrifice for Drogo for the real answer to be that Rhaego was just a natural stillbirth. 

That being said there is something going on with Targ's & there babies being born malformed with dragon like appendages & such. 

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think Rhaego may have been dead even before the tent. Dany’s account of her child’s health is untrustworthy. Usually marked with a “If I look back I am lost“ which she thinks SEVEN times across those two chapters alone - most notably in the moment when she accuses Mirri of cheating her (meaning, that’s probably false). She doesn’t want to face any consequences for her actions.

She couldn't account for her child's health but the child being dead prior to the tent would require not only Dany feeling the baby move & being mistaken but also Drogo feeling the child move but being mistaken. I think it's highly unlikely Dany's account of the baby moving inside her is untrustworthy. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Mirri probably thought Dany could handle some hard truths about magical resurrection, and why people hated the Dothraki. Clearly she couldn’t. Dany burning her alive surprised her because she begged for her life. 

Is that what she gave her? Some hard truths? If so, she deserved what she got. 

I highly doubt Mirri thought what she was saying to Daenerys would be received well & if she did she is an idiot. It doesn't take much brain power to understand that claiming you are responsible for the deaths of someones child & husband are not going to make the hearer react kindly to you. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If Dany can’t handle some terrible bedside manner she’ll wilt like a lily in Westeros. Her husband was a piece of shit. Her child was likely already dead. She is deflecting her own actions all over that book.

She handled it, just not in a manner you like. She handled it in the same manner any person in Westeros would have handled it if they had the means - by killing Mirri. Drogo had bad & good in him. I've said before & I'll say again: If Drogo & Rhaegos deaths were justified because Drogo killed Mirris loved ones, then Mirris death is justified for the same reason. 

Her child wasn't already dead, he was moving inside of her. Dead babies don't typically move right? 

Dany's actions are Dany's fault. Not Drogos, the khalasars, & certainly not Mirris. Mirri has to own her own crap. She may have been completely justified (depending on what exactly she did) but those actions are still her own. She chose to "help" heal Drogo after he was injured, she chose to interject herself into the entire thing. She could have kept quiet & not said a word. She could have told Dany the truth of the matter if she didn't or lied if she did. She could have done any number of things to make things go better for herself but she didn't. Same as Dany. 

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Is that what she gave her? Some hard truths? If so, she deserved what she got. 

I highly doubt Mirri thought what she was saying to Daenerys would be received well & if she did she is an idiot. It doesn't take much brain power to understand that claiming you are responsible for the deaths of someones child & husband are not going to make the hearer react kindly to you. 

 

Quite.  I'll say that if was Daenerys, I would have reacted in exactly the same way that she did.

[The Commentator]

13 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Correct, when a vindictive person openly, willingly, and boastfully admits to a crime then any reasonable person would consider it a closed case.  Mirri murdered a Targaryen prince.  Who happened to be innocent.  A newborn child is as innocent as one can get.  Contrast this to Tywin Lannister.  All Vargo did was cut the hand of a lord's son, just a lord's son.  Jaime is worth 1/10,000 as Prince Rhaego and less than the undefeated Khal Drogo.  Vargo was tortured and killed.  For a hand!  Stumpy is not the equal of Prince Rhaego.  Jon Snow killed Janos Slynt for the man's minor role in Ned's execution.  And Ned is just a lord.  Rhaego is a Targaryen prince.  Khal Drogo is the strongest of the khals.  Mirri's crimes were serious.  Stannis burned Rattleshirt for being a Wildling.  He burned his own soldiers, for pete's sake!  Arya murdered men who have done her no harm. None.  They were no threat.  The Sand Snakes would have made her suffer and kept her alive for years on end if she had hurt one of them.  We don't even need to mention Ramsay.

Burning is cruel.  I will not deny that.  I might have preferred if Daenerys had ordered Rakharo or Jorah to decap Mirri Maz Duur and been done with it.  Daenerys is a calculating girl and she knew she needed blood magic.  It's all part of the three, treason leads to death of a loved man, which leads to the traitor getting executed by fire.  MmD killed her son and husband.  Made her womb wither and took away one of the things a woman valued most. The ability to have children.  The only person in the story who might forgive MmD enough to give her a quick death was Ned.  And that is a maybe.  

 

Stumpy is not the equal of Rhaego Targaryen. This is known.

 

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

20 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Correct, when a vindictive person openly, willingly, and boastfully admits to a crime then any reasonable person would consider it a closed case.  Mirri murdered a Targaryen prince.  Who happened to be innocent.  A newborn child is as innocent as one can get.  Contrast this to Tywin Lannister.  All Vargo did was cut the hand of a lord's son, just a lord's son.  Jaime is worth 1/10,000 as Prince Rhaego and less than the undefeated Khal Drogo.  Vargo was tortured and killed.  For a hand!  Stumpy is not the equal of Prince Rhaego.  Jon Snow killed Janos Slynt for the man's minor role in Ned's execution.  And Ned is just a lord.  Rhaego is a Targaryen prince.  Khal Drogo is the strongest of the khals.  Mirri's crimes were serious.  Stannis burned Rattleshirt for being a Wildling.  He burned his own soldiers, for pete's sake!  Arya murdered men who have done her no harm. None.  They were no threat.  The Sand Snakes would have made her suffer and kept her alive for years on end if she had hurt one of them.  We don't even need to mention Ramsay.

Burning is cruel.  I will not deny that.  I might have preferred if Daenerys had ordered Rakharo or Jorah to decap Mirri Maz Duur and been done with it.  Daenerys is a calculating girl and she knew she needed blood magic.  It's all part of the three, treason leads to death of a loved man, which leads to the traitor getting executed by fire.  MmD killed her son and husband.  Made her womb wither and took away one of the things a woman valued most. The ability to have children.  The only person in the story who might forgive MmD enough to give her a quick death was Ned.  And that is a maybe.  

 

The life of Prince Rhaego Targaryen was worth more than the life of that maegi and any westeros family.

[Rose of Red Lake]

23 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The only possible answer I can see us getting is if maybe Marwyn gives us some information on what is required in a sacrifice. Something like, an animal sacrifice will only heal the body but not the soul or a human sacrifice is needed to do the spell. So, maybe at the very least we will get some information on what Mirri likely knew in regards to the magic. 

I'd like more information too. Mirri says that when she learned the spell in her training she "paid dearly for it." What do you think that's about? Did the spell kill Mirri's child in the womb without her knowledge? If so Mirri could have tried to do that to Dany, but Rhaego's life would have been too weak, or non-existent, anyway to accomplish a full resurrection. I guess she could be "guilty" of intent without actually doing harm.  Dany should have asked Mirri many more questions, like if Mirri had to pay a high price, would she have to as well?

10 hours ago, Stormborn13 said:

The life of Prince Rhaego Targaryen was worth more than the life of that maegi and any westeros family.

Sure, a village healer's life is worth more than a deformed dragon monster that was going to die anyway no matter what Mirri did. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

34 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I'd like more information too. Mirri says that when she learned the spell in her training she "paid dearly for it." What do you think that's about? Did the spell kill Mirri's child in the womb without her knowledge?

Yeah very interesting. I don't know what exactly the price she paid was but I would bet it was someone very dear to her. If not a child in the womb, a child already born or a husband? I do hope we get something. 

34 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If so Mirri could have tried to do that to Dany, but Rhaego's life would have been too weak, or non-existent, anyway to accomplish a full resurrection.

Why would Rhaego's life have been too weak? 

35 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 I guess she could be "guilty" of intent without actually doing harm.  Dany should have asked Mirri many more questions, like if Mirri had to pay a high price, would she have to as well?

Maybe, there is just so much tangled here that it really could have been anywhere on the spectrum; she intended to do no harm & did everything she knew to help, she intended to do harm but in the end really didn't, she intended to do harm & did do harm. I think it could be a valuable plot point if Dany were to hear later, something in regards to blood sacrifices that either lets her know for sure Mirri intended to do her harm - this could be part of what pushes her into the frame of mind that she knows whats "good" (I'm not trying to quote or follow the abomination because it really means nothing but the theory that Dany will turn darker & darker certainly wasn't born from there) or hearing something that lets her know Mirri did everything in her power to help her could be a catalyst of sorts also. She could feel very guilty about what she did to her & in her guilt behave irrationally or she could not feel guilty at all, showing the reader what sort of person she has turned into. 

Yeah, absolutely she should have asked more questions. I don't think it's unrealistic that she didn't - in that I don't think it was bad writing to have her agree to it without asking more questions. I think some people would likely agree, no matter the cost. I would like to believe I would have asked more questions lol TBH I think my first question would have been about my child. Mirri is telling her "only death pays for life", as a mother it's hard for me to understand how her first worry is my life? Especially considering even if it were her life her baby is growing inside of her so it would be his life as well.

I do understand that the love you have for your child doesn't come to full fruition until you actually have that child. Just to clarify, when I was pregnant with my first child I loved him, I wanted to protect him, but I had no idea what would happen when he was born. I didn't know I could love someone so much, I didn't know it would feel as if part of my heart was walking around outside of me for the rest of my life. Of course subsequent pregnancies were different because I had felt it & knew. 

This goes back to her not immediately asking about Rhaego also I think. It could be simply because she had already sensed he was gone or whatever but I don't think so. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

50 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sure, a village healer's life is worth more than a deformed dragon monster that was going to die anyway no matter what Mirri did. 

I don't know if we can say the baby was going to die no matter what Mirri did but his life is certainly not more important than anyone elses simply because he was a "prince" - he wasn't even a prince in any real sense of the word. He wasn't going to inherit anything through Drogo. He could only rule in his own right if he proved himself. 

Totally off-topic but where are the other children? Do other Dothraki not sire children? I also found in the wiki that a Khal's heir is called Khalakka but what sense does it make to have someone named heir if they are not the heir? 

[Rose of Red Lake]

50 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Why would Rhaego's life have been too weak? 

Because he had similar traits as the "monsterous" babies from Maegor, Rhaenyra, and Daemon's children - born stillborn with serious birth defects. This, in addition to the Targaryen tendency for fertility issues and normal stillbirths as well. If the intent was to show that Mirri killed him I dont know why the author would muddy the waters in the histories to make us question if he was even a viable pregnancy/birth. We would need proof that Mirri caused the defects in the first place. That's difficult since the evidence is going in the other direction, toward it happening because of something already present in the blood of Targaryens.

43 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

don't know if we can say the baby was going to die no matter what Mirri did

None of those dragon babies lived from previous Targaryens. The defects make the child non viable.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I'd like more information too. Mirri says that when she learned the spell in her training she "paid dearly for it." What do you think that's about? Did the spell kill Mirri's child in the womb without her knowledge? If so Mirri could have tried to do that to Dany, but Rhaego's life would have been too weak, or non-existent, anyway to accomplish a full resurrection. I guess she could be "guilty" of intent without actually doing harm.  Dany should have asked Mirri many more questions, like if Mirri had to pay a high price, would she have to as well?

Sure, a village healer's life is worth more than a deformed dragon monster that was going to die anyway no matter what Mirri did. 

I think that Melisandre makes much the same comment, in her point of view chapter, and they are both shadow binders.  "Paying the price" could mena losing a child, or perhaps being rendered infertile, or suffering some other type of physical injury.

In Meliandre's case, I think the price is the loss of her humanity.  In a way, I think of Melisandre as being like one of the Nazgul.  Not exactly dead, but undead.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

34 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Because he had similar traits as the "monsterous" babies from Maegor, Rhaenyra, and Daemon's children - born stillborn with serious birth defects. This, in addition to the Targaryen tendency for fertility issues and normal stillbirths as well. If the intent was to show that Mirri killed him I dont know why the author would muddy the waters in the histories to make us question if he was even a viable pregnancy/birth. We would need proof that Mirri caused the defects in the first place. That's difficult since the evidence is going in the other direction, toward it happening because of something already present in the blood of Targaryens.

I see, yeah it certainly could be so. One could make the counter argument that if this is the case though, the claim of Mirri's that Rhaego was the price paid kind of confuses things as well. 

35 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

None of those dragon babies lived from previous Targaryens. The defects make the child non viable.

Right, I understand now. It's definitely an option, I just don't know if I can say it's absolute. 

[Mystical]

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right, I understand now. It's definitely an option, I just don't know if I can say it's absolute. 

From what little we do know about Targ offspring iirc, the chances of nonviable, deformed or stillborn babies are higher between a Targ and non-Targ than between 2 Targs. There is a long list of non-Targ women who had issues giving birth to viable, healthy babies. Dany and Drogo is another Targ/notTarg combo so it's more likely than not that the child was actually deformed/stillborn/whatever considering the family history.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

47 minutes ago, Mystical said:

From what little we do know about Targ offspring iirc, the chances of nonviable, deformed or stillborn babies are higher between a Targ and non-Targ than between 2 Targs. There is a long list of non-Targ women who had issues giving birth to viable, healthy babies. Dany and Drogo is another Targ/notTarg combo so it's more likely than not that the child was actually deformed/stillborn/whatever considering the family history.

I'm not disregarding the fact that this certainly could be the case, I'm just trying to understand why Mirri seems to think Rhaego paid for Drogo's life if Rhaego was going to be born dead anyway ya know? 

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sure, a village healer's life is worth more than a deformed dragon monster that was going to die anyway no matter what Mirri did. 

Prince Rhaego was perfectly healthy and strong. The real monster was that maegi who murdered him.

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I see, yeah it certainly could be so. One could make the counter argument that if this is the case though, the claim of Mirri's that Rhaego was the price paid kind of confuses things as well. 

She may think she killed him, but didnt. These folks dont know the magic as well as they think they do. Mirri did not sugar coat it for Dany by warning her, "some would say death is cleaner" but Dany still wanted to go ahead. In a narrative sense her determination to save Drogo's life had to come at some personal cost to Dany, she was going to have to pay for it whether now or later. Regardless of what happened price just means facing consequences which again...she doesn't want to do. 

[kissdbyfire]

25 minutes ago, Stormborn13 said:

Prince Rhaego was perfectly healthy and strong. The real monster was that maegi who murdered him.

For starters, Rhaego was no prince. But more importantly, care to back up your claim about Rhaego being “healthy and strong”? And when I say “back up your claim”, I I mean quotes from the books, not head canon/fan fic. 

[Therae]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think that Melisandre makes much the same comment, in her point of view chapter, and they are both shadow binders.  "Paying the price" could mena losing a child, or perhaps being rendered infertile, or suffering some other type of physical injury.

In Meliandre's case, I think the price is the loss of her humanity.  In a way, I think of Melisandre as being like one of the Nazgul.  Not exactly dead, but undead.

This or something like it. Mirri was talking about paying a price for knowledge, which seems like it would be a different sort of price than the specific quid pro quo to make the spell work. I'm inclined to think MMD is infertile, as well, but it could be the equivalent of selling her soul, or even something like the existential horror of exposure to the sort of things she raised in the tent.