Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

41 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She may think she killed him, but didnt. These folks dont know the magic as well as they think they do. Mirri did not sugar coat it for Dany by warning her, "some would say death is cleaner" but Dany still wanted to go ahead. In a narrative sense her determination to save Drogo's life had to come at some personal cost to Dany, she was going to have to pay for it whether now or later. Regardless of what happened price just means facing consequences which again...she doesn't want to do. 

Right but if Rhaegos life isn't the price she paid for Drogos then what is? I would say Mirri knows the magic well enough to know the cost & how to perform the spell at the least. If she thinks the price was Rhaego truly (barring that she doesn't really think this but only let Dany think it) then the price has to be Rhaego right? 

If she knows the price wasn't Rhaego but just let Dany think that then what was the price? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

27 minutes ago, Therae said:

This or something like it. Mirri was talking about paying a price for knowledge, which seems like it would be a different sort of price than the specific quid pro quo to make the spell work. I'm inclined to think MMD is infertile, as well, but it could be the equivalent of selling her soul, or even something like the existential horror of exposure to the sort of things she raised in the tent.

I don't think she was talking about paying the price for knowledge, Dany didn't get the knowledge. She specifically says you paid for life, you got life. 

Maybe the price is Dany being infertile & maybe that inadvertently caused Rhaegos death? Whether or not Mirri knows it did or knew it would. It's a possibility. 

40 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

For starters, Rhaego was no prince. But more importantly, care to back up your claim about Rhaego being “healthy and strong”? And when I say “back up your claim”, I I mean quotes from the books, not head canon/fan fic. 

Indeed. No prince & we don't have the slightest idea he was healthy or strong. All we know is he was moving. 

[Therae]

9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think she was talking about paying the price for knowledge, Dany didn't get the knowledge. She specifically says you paid for life, you got life. 

Maybe the price is Dany being infertile & maybe that inadvertently caused Rhaegos death? Whether or not Mirri knows it did or knew it would. It's a possibility. 

In this instance, we were talking about the price Mirri paid to learn the spell:

Quote

Mirri Maz Duur sat back on her heels and studied Daenerys through eyes as black as night. "There is a spell." Her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper. "But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner. I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson. My teacher was a bloodmage from the Shadow Lands." - GoT, Daenerys VIII

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

21 minutes ago, Therae said:

In this instance, we were talking about the price Mirri paid to learn the spell

Oh geez I'm sorry!

[Therae]

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar  

[SeanF]

I expect MMD, like Melisandre, encountered some real horrors, as part of her magical training.  It's bad enough to give Melisandre nightmares (along with her memories of sexual slavery).

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

For starters, Rhaego was no prince. But more importantly, care to back up your claim about Rhaego being “healthy and strong”? And when I say “back up your claim”, I I mean quotes from the books, not head canon/fan fic. 

Prince Rhaego was born deformed because the maegi poisoned Dany to abort him. The descriptions that Prince Rhaego was strong and healthy are in his mother's POVs in AGOT. If you want quotes, go look for them. I have no interest in inventing things to prove my point. 

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Stormborn13 said:

Prince Rhaego was born deformed because the maegi poisoned Dany to abort him. The descriptions that Prince Rhaego was strong and healthy are in his mother's POVs in AGOT. If you want quotes, go look for them. I have no interest in inventing things to prove my point. 

Do you mean Dany’s fever dream, where she sees a grown up Rhaego? Or the vision in ACoK where she again sees a grown up Rhaego bringing death and destruction wherever he goes? At any rate, the dream in AGoT and the vision in ACoK don’t prove that baby Rhaego in the womb was “healthy and strong” as you claimed. “Morrows not yet made”.

 

[Mystical]

16 minutes ago, Stormborn13 said:

Prince Rhaego was born deformed because the maegi poisoned Dany to abort him. The descriptions that Prince Rhaego was strong and healthy are in his mother's POVs in AGOT. If you want quotes, go look for them. I have no interest in inventing things to prove my point. 

Considering that you keep calling him a Prince, you clearly have the time to invent things. So...

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

18 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Considering that you keep calling him a Prince, you clearly have the time to invent things. So...

At no time was I trying to prove that Rhaego is a prince. I keep calling him that because I want and that's it! 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, Stormborn13 said:

At no time was I trying to prove that Rhaego is a prince. I keep calling him that because I want and that's it! 

You are correct that you did nothing to prove him a prince but you do keep calling him that, even though he isn't so clearly that's something you have invented. 

[TedBear]

The way it all happened Dany was desperate and it seemed to me that she just forgot about the child's life, when MMD tells her it wasn't her life we don't have any more Dany's thoughts on the subject, she says before she would sacrifice for him, but after learning that it wasn't her life she just says "do it". 

Just a few lines later, in time to put Drogo in the bathtub Dany says that the stallion would be used to give to Drogo strength, similar to what happened to her before.

"In Vaes Dothrak, Khal Drogo killed a stallion and I ate his heart, to give our son strength and courage. This is the same thing. The same."

right afterwards, when MMD is going to do the procedure, Dany talks about her son, and in no case does she seem to know the real sacrifice, she really doesn't seem to have thought that it could be the child, when she wakes up, she asks about her son and wants to see him, and she already had the information that Drogo was alive.

Dany says the baby appeared to be alive when he was taken to the tent. At that moment, MMD says "There was death in that tent, khaleesi", as she had previously said to Dany (but if she sacrificed the child as part of the ritual, why did she say that?)

- Only shadows, Ser Jorah revealed, but Dany could feel the doubt in her voice - I saw it, I saw it maegi, alone, dancing with the shadows.
- The grave produces long shadows, Iron Lord, said Mirri. Long and dark, and in the end no light can resist them.

after that Dany starts to think that Jorah taking her to the tent was the reason for Rhaego's death, but the shadows also touched Jorah.

The shadows touched you too, Ser Jorah, ”Dany told him. The knight did not answer. She turned to the wife of god. - You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse.
"No," said Mirri Maz Duur. - That's what wanted to believe. You knew the price.

Here when Dany accuses her, MMD implies that the child was used in the ritual and tells Dany that she knew it. When MMD says about the ritual having a price, Dany could evaluate any living being that was not her, could be a blood companion, or any other sacrifice, if Rhaego was really the price, I think everyone would say that in the clear, maybe MMD was seeing that the situation was getting complicated for her and tried to stop Dany, saying that, but in my opinion neither she knows why the baby was born so monstrous, and I really believe that Dany was unconsciously transferring the baby's life to the dragon eggs gradually. 

She was lying there, clinging to the egg, when she felt the baby move in her belly ... as if she were holding out a hand, brother to brother, blood to blood.
"You are the dragon," Dany whispered to his son, "the real dragon."

She lightly ran her fingers over the surface of the bark, following the golden volutes, and in the depth of the rock she felt something twist and stretch in response. Wasn't scared.

[The Commentator]

On 2/5/2020 at 1:06 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right but if Rhaegos life isn't the price she paid for Drogos then what is? I would say Mirri knows the magic well enough to know the cost & how to perform the spell at the least. If she thinks the price was Rhaego truly (barring that she doesn't really think this but only let Dany think it) then the price has to be Rhaego right? 

If she knows the price wasn't Rhaego but just let Dany think that then what was the price? 

There are a lot of unknowns to magic.  It is not an exact science.  If at all.  Mirri thinks one thing.  Marwyn another.  Daenerys has her own opinions.  Mellisandre has her beliefs.  Who is to say which one is right.  Don't rule out old-fashioned murder and tricky illusions.  It is very easy for the midwife to murder a newborn baby without the use of magic, and then use deception and illusion to fool the superstitious into seeing wings.  Mirri M Duur could have skinned a lizard, dewinged bats and glued them onto the baby.  Who really got a closer look?  Daenerys never even saw her baby.  She was relying on the testimony of the superstitious women around her.  

The why and how is not really of import.  Rhaego was murdered.  The universe may consider him king already.  Depending on its standards.  Viserys was the Targaryen king.  Drogo was a king to his people.  That's a lot of royalty dying in a short span of time.  Daenerys has magic.  Mirri has magic tricks.  The ingredients brought back the dragons.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

There are a lot of unknowns to magic.  It is not an exact science.  If at all.  Mirri thinks one thing.  Marwyn another.  Daenerys has her own opinions.  Mellisandre has her beliefs.  Who is to say which one is right.  Don't rule out old-fashioned murder and tricky illusions.  It is very easy for the midwife to murder a newborn baby without the use of magic, and then use deception and illusion to fool the superstitious into seeing wings.  Mirri M Duur could have skinned a lizard, dewinged bats and glued them onto the baby.  Who really got a closer look?  Daenerys never even saw her baby.  She was relying on the testimony of the superstitious women around her.  

For sure. I always thought it was odd that Dany didn't demand to see the baby. I think I would have. Especially after seeing how Drogo turned out. 

2 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The why and how is not really of import.  Rhaego was murdered.  The universe may consider him king already.  Depending on its standards.  Viserys was the Targaryen king.  Drogo was a king to his people.  That's a lot of royalty dying in a short span of time.  Daenerys has magic.  Mirri has magic tricks.  The ingredients brought back the dragons

Well it's important in dissecting what exactly happened, how the magic works, how the dragons hatched & important to some when weighing Dany's morals. But yeah, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. 

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Mirri M Duur could have skinned a lizard, dewinged bats and glued them onto the baby

Are you serious?

[frenin]

34 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Are you serious?

I think the answer it's yes.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

I think the answer it's yes.

I suppose. As a dear friend said, “she may have bought all that stuff at the Dothraki Sea Arts & Creepy Crafts Shop”. Or something along those lines.

[teej6]

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I suppose. As a dear friend said, “she may have bought all that stuff at the Dothraki Sea Arts & Creepy Crafts Shop”. Or something along those lines.

Through the years, I’ve seen some posts that were really out there but MMD skinning lizards and bats and gluing their body parts onto Rhaego’s little newborn body is prolly right up there among the most cray cray... 

[sweetsunray]

@SeanF and @Lyanna<3Rhaegar I'm sorry that I haven't had the time yet to respond to your replies yet. During the week I tend to just stay away, because it would interfere with my prep for work, and I'd end up posting back and forth all day on the forum and having to do an all nighter to get the math courses written. That won't do of course, if I also have to be fresh and lucid in front of an adult classroom for 4 hours teaching calculus 1.

I hope to tackle some this weekend.

I do however remember SeanF make the general argument during the discussion last week (and it may not have been directed at me) about how the Dothraki had a legitimate reason to invade Westeros after an assassination attempt from a foreign goverment in another state. I believe you compared it to the invasion of Afghanistan.

However, the Dothraki are pretty much far more comparable to the Taliban or a rogue state such as ISIS - who kill, rape, enslave and destroy other people's (historical) culture and such. And so, if you open the door to the argument of the legitimacy of the invasion of Afghanistan to disempower the Taliban as well as assassinate Taliban Mullahs and their befriended leaders of Al Qaida, or say the past few years Iraq to quell the ISIS rogue state, then wouldn't that comparison make Robert desiring Viserys and pregnant Dany assassinated more akin to Bush Jr and Obama?

It was also argued that nobody nowadays would condemn teen girls who end up wed to guys like Drogo when surrounded by his khalasar. But well, what about ISIS-brides? Many of them were teen girls who took off on a plane and wed adult men who love beheading whomever they got their hands, and many other atrocities. These girls are condemned for it. They're in prison camps for it. And many of their origin countries and the citizens of those countries either wish they remain in Iraqi or Syrian prison camps and have them tried for war crimes there. But if they are repatriated they will certainly be dragged before a court over it. Hell, even the repatriation of the children born of these unions are a hot topic, with a lot of people being dead set against these toddlers being sent to the origin country of their mothers, so much that International commitees and courts have had to issue fines onto countries because their governments refuse to take these children in.

Now, I'm not actually defending Robert here. I'm with Ned Stark here. But the claims that nobody would ever convict a teen like Dany who ends up with a rogue culture such as the Dothraki are well dead wrong.

Also, and I don't remember who made the remark to me several pages back, because I read it in a glance, before I made this post: it was argued that "I shouldn't be making modern comparisons", but that's a double standard. I was not the one who began to make modern comparisons. Lyanna<3Rhaegar opened the doorway to modern comparisons when she paralleled Dany's complicity to that of a friend of a robberer who ends up killing people during the robbery, claiming that nobody would convict her for the criminal actions performed by someone else, just because she asked for money. But as I have shown, that claim is not true, because some countries have the "felony murder rule". I didn't hear anyone criticising that comparison as "not okay, because it's not a modern world." Guess, the criticism only comes up, when it becomes more and more clear that the comparison actually bolsters the arguments of someone disagreeing with you. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 2/7/2020 at 6:57 PM, sweetsunray said:

sorry that I haven't had the time yet to respond to your replies yet. During the week I tend to just stay away, because it would interfere with my prep for work, and I'd end up posting back and forth all day on the forum and having to do an all nighter to get the math courses written. That won't do of course, if I also have to be fresh and lucid in front of an adult classroom for 4 hours teaching calculus 1

No worries. I spend many a slow work day on the forum but on busy days I have to stay away for the same reason. 

On 2/7/2020 at 6:57 PM, sweetsunray said:

However, the Dothraki are pretty much far more comparable to the Taliban or a rogue state such as ISIS - who kill, rape, enslave and destroy other people's (historical) culture and such. And so, if you open the door to the argument of the legitimacy of the invasion of Afghanistan to disempower the Taliban as well as assassinate Taliban Mullahs and their befriended leaders of Al Qaida, or say the past few years Iraq to quell the ISIS rogue state, then wouldn't that comparison make Robert desiring Viserys and pregnant Dany assassinated more akin to Bush Jr and Obama

I don't really "do" politics because emotions get too high but I'll do my best to give my opinion here. I agree the Dothraki are more comparable to the Taliban or Isis but I don't think that in & of itself negates their right to retaliate against an enemy who attacked them first. 

I do agree that it would have been a helluva mess had they made it to Westeros & while there is raping & pillaging all through the series by the men waging war that wouldn't make it any more right for the Dothraki to do it. 

On 2/7/2020 at 6:57 PM, sweetsunray said:

was also argued that nobody nowadays would condemn teen girls who end up wed to guys like Drogo when surrounded by his khalasar. But well, what about ISIS-brides? Many of them were teen girls who took off on a plane and wed adult men who love beheading whomever they got their hands, and many other atrocities. These girls are condemned for it. They're in prison camps for it. And many of their origin countries and the citizens of those countries either wish they remain in Iraqi or Syrian prison camps and have them tried for war crimes there. But if they are repatriated they will certainly be dragged before a court over it. Hell, even the repatriation of the children born of these unions are a hot topic, with a lot of people being dead set against these toddlers being sent to the origin country of their mothers, so much that International commitees and courts have had to issue fines onto countries because their governments refuse to take these children in.

I don't know much about any of this, when I said no one would convict them I was talking about a court of law in the U.S. or similar country & should have been more specific. 

Those things are terrible & you are right, if Daenerys were brought before one of these courts, she would likely be condemned. I think it's very wrong though. 

On 2/7/2020 at 6:57 PM, sweetsunray said:

and I don't remember who made the remark to me several pages back, because I read it in a glance, before I made this post: it was argued that "I shouldn't be making modern comparisons", but that's a double standard. I was not the one who began to make modern comparisons. Lyanna<3Rhaegar opened the doorway to modern comparisons when she paralleled Dany's complicity to that of a friend of a robberer who ends up killing people during the robbery, claiming that nobody would convict her for the criminal actions performed by someone else, just because she asked for money. But as I have shown, that claim is not true, because some countries have the "felony murder rule". I didn't hear anyone criticising that comparison as "not okay, because it's not a modern world." Guess, the criticism only comes up, when it becomes more and more clear that the comparison actually bolsters the arguments of someone disagreeing with you

I didn't see that statement but would like to clarify that it wasn't me that made it. I don't like to try to put restrictions on discussions like these, I think it hinders thought & meaningful discussion to try to put things in a box where only your way fits. (Not yours specifically but whoever said that)

I did speak to the felony rule, I assume that was not taken from international law but either way I think for it to apply we would need to hear what the law is regarding captives in this situation.