Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

[frenin]

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I agree wars are shitty, regardless of the justification for them. I'm only noting that her justification is no more or less than most. 

I've already said that all that most have is entitlement and that is a very shitty reason.

 

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh, I disagree. She doesn't view it as a dream, but a right. She believes it's her birthright to rule Westeros. So she very much knows it's hers. 

I dunno, what is the difference between Maelys the Monstrous Gaemon Palehair and Dany?? At least Gaemon knew what he was trying to usurp, Dany and Maelys never set a foot in Westeros, they don't  know nothing more about Westeros besides what  they were being told since kids, you can change Westeros with Yi Ti, the Summer Isles or Asshai, it don't matter, it's a dream, birthright is no diferent than dellusion in this context.  

She knows it's hers you say, has she ever passed a poll around Westeros?? Does she believe that the kingdoms than rebelled against her family and deposed them are also hers?? She knows it's hers because she was told it's hers, it's that all it's needed?? If Dany was told Yi Ti is hers, wouldn't that be a dellusion either??

 

Somewhere beyond the sunset, across the narrow sea, lay a land of green hills and flowered plains and great rushing rivers, where towers of dark stone rose amidst magnificent blue-grey mountains, and armored knights rode to battle beneath the banners of their lords. The Dothraki called that land Rhaesh Andahli, the land of the Andals. In the Free Cities, they talked of Westeros and the Sunset Kingdoms. Her brother had a simpler name. "Our land," he called it. The words were like a prayer with him. If he said them enough, the gods were sure to hear. "Ours by blood right, taken from us by treachery, but ours still, ours forever. You do not steal from the dragon, oh, no. The dragon remembers."
And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. She had never seen this land her brother said was theirs, this realm beyond the narrow sea. These places he talked of, Casterly Rock and the Eyrie, Highgarden and the Vale of Arryn, Dorne and the Isle of Faces, they were just words to her. Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb.
Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

 

I don't know how can it be said that Westeros isn't a dream when Dany presents it as a fairy world, Or is the argument that the more time it passes the the stronger is her believe that said fairy world is hers by rights??

 

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Viserys "taught" her many things, many of which she has disregarded. She is her own person, regardless of what he told her & has proven herself capable of a wide variety of feelings & emotions, not just hatred & vengeance. 

Never said she wasn't her own person overall, i'm talking about a thing in which she can't be her own person, simply because she's being moved by others, her desire for the throne, at least she won't be until she gets to Westeros.

She disregarded  a lot of things her brother taught her. The only thing she had come to admit, or at least partially,  is the fact her father was mad, not that he even was a monster,  and even then that did not change one bit about what Viserys indoctrinated her.

 

Quote

[...] The day Lord Stark lost his head, I was there, watching. Afterward I went into the Great Sept and thanked the seven gods that Joffrey had stripped me of my cloak."

"Stark was a traitor who met a traitor's end."

"Your Grace," said Selmy, "Eddard Stark played a part in your father's fall, but he bore you no ill will. When the eunuch Varys told us that you were with child, Robert wanted you killed, but Lord Stark spoke against it. Rather than countenance the murder of children, he told Robert to find himself another Hand."

"Have you forgotten Princess Rhaenys and Prince Aegon?"

"Never. That was Lannister work, Your Grace."

"Lannister or Stark, what difference? Viserys used to call them the Usurper's dogs. If a child is set upon by a pack of hounds, does it matter which one tears out his throat? All the dogs are just as guilty. The guilt …" The word caught in her throat. Hazzea, she thought, and suddenly she heard herself say, "I have to see the pit," in a voice as small as a child's whisper. "Take me down, ser, if you would."
A flicker of disapproval crossed the old man's face, but it was not his way to question his queen. "As you command."

 

Does Dany show a variety of emotions other than she had been taught by her brother regarding Ned?? Nope, she outright says he got what he sought. Barristan knows Ned and has told her that he was thankful about losing the white cloak for not having a part in Ned's execution and what she does?? Displaying the exact emotions she had been taught since a kid. Don't really know how we can say she's not chasing a dream and fighting ghosts when she does not want to listen hard truths about the robellion so those ghosts she's being worshipping or hating don't get to change.

 

 

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Why would she not have been born if her family wasn't slaughtered? 

 

She wouldn't habe been born if the rebels hadn't rebel... or at least if Lord Chelsted wasn't a goddam hero.

 

 

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 She has every right & reason to be upset over her entire family being slaughtered, whether she knew them or not. She would have grown up very differently had she been born into & raised by Rhaegar or even Aerys. He was a nut job but she would have never wanted for a place to live, probably never been subject to her cruel brother, never had to rely on handouts & never been sold to a horselord. 

 

Upset?? Ok, revengy?? Not so much.

And at the end of the day, the family she knows and for  what she's set to punish the traitors are the dellusions of a dellusional and sheltered 8 year old. Well, if her family were to live in the exile she got to live, i very much doubt her situation would be much better. 

 

 

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 If your father, brother, niece, & nephew were brutally murdered before you were born & your mother died in childbirth, do you not think you would mourn them just because you never met them? Do you not think you would want revenge & justice on the people who murdered them? 

Don't know, don't really sure. I know i wouldn't wage a war for it tho. If i knew the family i lost and they were dear to me tho... i know i'd do anything. Which is why Dany's actions seem off to me.

 

 

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not sure what you are asking me. 

Well, the lamb people were targetted as means to get money to go to Westeros...

 

 

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, yeah burning someone alive is pretty inhumane. But she definitely earned Dany's wrath. 

Agreed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Finley McLeod]

Viserys was crowned King of Westeros by Queen Rhaella; therefore, he and his heir (Princess Daenerys) have all the rights to rule that continent.  It is theirs.  Dickwad Robert Baratheon used his Targaryen lineage to justify his right to the throne.  Using that lineage obligated him to honor the tradition of the succession which dictates his claim is way down the line and far below that of Prince Viserys.  In legal terms, he started his reign on shaky legal grounds.  Prince Viserys had the stronger claim under the rules and the traditions that Robert himself used to justify his right.  He was being a hypocrite.  Westeros belonged to Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen.  It's just silly to fault them for planning to take back Westeros while also not faulting the Starks or any other family who wants to take back their castles and lands.  Military action will be required in all cases and that is true even today.  

King Viserys, the Third of His Name, had no illusions about the need for a military.  He understood, legality alone will have nothing at all to do with whose bum will sit on that throne.  Might determines these things.  He also understood the need to show up with an overwhelming force in order to gather support.  People, no matter how loyal they are to the Targaryens, are not going to stick out their throats for a cause that has little chance of success.  It's better to join the side who has the best chance of victory.  If you're Tywin and Walder, it's  better to join the side which already won.  People and customs can accommodate a lot of social change but losing in war isn't something people would want to happen.  So Viserys has the legal right on his side.  He just needed the military force in order to back up that right.  The Dothraki understand this to the extreme because being legal is far below strength in their eyes.  Khal Drogo would have given his gift to Viserys in the future.  Maybe he would have lent riders and slave soldiers to the cause.  There are many other ways to fulfill that contract without a full on Dothraki ocean crossing.  

To sum up, Viserys and his sister have always had the rights to rule Westeros.  I see nothing wrong with the siblings using force to boot the usurper's bum off their throne.  It's the same if somebody took Casterly Rock and the Lannisters gather forces to take it back.  Better example might be Edmure using force to take back River Run.  Or the Starks using force to take back Winterfell.  It's all the same.  And it is a rather bullshit criticism to say someone has less rights because they've never set foot in Westeros.  Inheritance has nothing to do with having touched soil with one's feet.  Inheritance is determined by birth.  In any case, Daenerys and Viserys were both born in Westeros.  Aerys chose Viserys to be his successor.  Dickwad Robb Stark had never set foot in the River Lands before his criminals declared him king.  Viserys has more to back up his right to the title of king than Robb Stark.  

The execution of MMD is in line with what happens to people who commit her kind of crime.  Hell, loyal men at arms got burned under the orders of Stannis Baratheon.  And those men didn't murder anybody.  They just ate the already dead.  Not because they enjoyed the delicacy, mind you.  They had to, to survive.  Daenerys had more valid reasons than Stannis.  Roasted Rattleshirt was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Mel needed deception and saved the guiltiest criminal in Westeros and burned the less guilty for selfish reasons, to help Jon get Arya out of Winterfell.  The poor guy whose throat was cut by the Stark woman in Bran's dream.  He lost his life because the Starks needed to fertilize their garden.  Bloodmeal for the garden tree.  The northmen gutted people they didn't like and decorated their weirwood trees with the entrails.  It wasn't even christmas.  Manderly executes and mutilates criminals.  King's Landing executioners hang the heads of the dead for people to desecrate further.  Flea Bottom boys make sport of it and force girls to kiss the heads.  So yeah, killing is an ugly business and what was done to MMD is justice by comparison.

The Dothraki have a complicated social system for nomads.  It isn't easy for a person from Westeros to understand their culture.  They are basically paid to not sack the Free Cities and perhaps that is where Viserys and Daenerys thought the funding would come from.  After all, they were told khals received lavish payments to keep them sweet.  It is an understandable conclusion to think the funding for the return to Westeros would come from this source.  

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, frenin said:

I've already said that all that most have is entitlement and that is a very shitty reason.

 

I dunno, what is the difference between Maelys the Monstrous Gaemon Palehair and Dany?? At least Gaemon knew what he was trying to usurp, Dany and Maelys never set a foot in Westeros, they don't  know nothing more about Westeros besides what  they were being told since kids, you can change Westeros with Yi Ti, the Summer Isles or Asshai, it don't matter, it's a dream, birthright is no diferent than dellusion in this context.  

She knows it's hers you say, has she ever passed a poll around Westeros?? Does she believe that the kingdoms than rebelled against her family and deposed them are also hers?? She knows it's hers because she was told it's hers, it's that all it's needed?? If Dany was told Yi Ti is hers, wouldn't that be a dellusion either??

 

 

Never said she wasn't her own person overall, i'm talking about a thing in which she can't be her own person, simply because she's being moved by others, her desire for the throne, at least she won't be until she gets to Westeros.

She disregarded  a lot of things her brother taught her. The only thing she had come to admit, or at least partially,  is the fact her father was mad, not that he even was a monster,  and even then that did not change one bit about what Viserys indoctrinated her.

 

 

Does Dany show a variety of emotions other than she had been taught by her brother regarding Ned?? Nope, she outright says he got what he sought. Barristan knows Ned and has told her that he was thankful about losing the white cloak for not having a part in Ned's execution and what she does?? Displaying the exact emotions she had been taught since a kid. Don't really know how we can say she's not chasing a dream and fighting ghosts when she does not want to listen hard truths about the robellion so those ghosts she's being worshipping or hating don't get to change.

 

 

She wouldn't habe been born if the rebels hadn't rebel... or at least if Lord Chelsted wasn't a goddam hero.

 

 

Upset?? Ok, revengy?? Not so much.

And at the end of the day, the family she knows and for  what she's set to punish the traitors are the dellusions of a dellusional and sheltered 8 year old. Well, if her family were to live in the exile she got to live, i very much doubt her situation would be much better. 

 

 

Don't know, don't really sure. I know i wouldn't wage a war for it tho. If i knew the family i lost and they were dear to me tho... i know i'd do anything. Which is why Dany's actions seem off to me.

 

 

Well, the lamb people were targetted as means to get money to go to Westeros...

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

It would be a pretty unusual person who would not be furious at the murder of half their family, and being driven into exile, both in our world or in-universe.  Particularly when that person believes that the man who did it had been sending assassins after her and her brother.

I'd want revenge on King Robert and Tywin Lannister in her position, and in the eyes of this world, I'd be justified.

[frenin]

30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It would be a pretty unusual person who would not be furious at the murder of half their family, and being driven into exile, both in our world or in-universe.  Particularly when that person believes that the man who did it had been sending assassins after her and her brother.

 

It would be i agree, people feel they have to avenge dead relatives. Btw, Dany does not believe Robert has been sending assasins after them...

 

[...] They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper's hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one.

 

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

 I'd want revenge on King Robert and Tywin Lannister in her position, and in the eyes of this world, I'd be justified.

Tywin?? Sure, Robert?? Not so likely. Not that your own ideas are a valid causus belli, but then again there are far worse than that, ask Renly if not. Prior the poisoning Dany is just a warmonger ready to bring destruction to a continent over a delusion, her justifications are pretty much nonexistent, after the poisoning she is still a warmonger chasing delusions but at least she has a causus belli.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

Viserys was crowned King of Westeros by Queen Rhaella; therefore, he and his heir (Princess Daenerys) have all the rights to rule that continent.  It is theirs.  Dickwad Robert Baratheon used his Targaryen lineage to justify his right to the throne.  Using that lineage obligated him to honor the tradition of the succession which dictates his claim is way down the line and far below that of Prince Viserys.  In legal terms, he started his reign on shaky legal grounds.  Prince Viserys had the stronger claim under the rules and the traditions that Robert himself used to justify his right.  He was being a hypocrite.  Westeros belonged to Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen.  It's just silly to fault them for planning to take back Westeros while also not faulting the Starks or any other family who wants to take back their castles and lands.  Military action will be required in all cases and that is true even today.  

 

What right, legal or otherwise had Rhaella when she crowned Viserys?? Why that crowning has any more value than Gaemon Palehair... or well Robb?? It is theirs you say, care to say why?? At least 4 Kingdoms wanted to do nothing with the Targs, their opinion is irrelevant then?? 

Robert always said that his warhammer was his claim, which isan awful lesson he taught to a very impressionable Renly, He, more than likely, declared that the Targs were invalidated to rule because both Rhagar and Aerys broke the feudal contract, if not he just took it. And ofc it's silly make a difference between the Targs and Starks, they are all entitled  people. The only thing you can say is that the Starks had not lost their momentum yet and the majoriyt of Westeros still consider them the rightful rulers if the North, in 15 years, that momemtum will be lost.

 

 

3 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

 To sum up, Viserys and his sister have always had the rights to rule Westeros.  I see nothing wrong with the siblings using force to boot the usurper's bum off their throne.  It's the same if somebody took Casterly Rock and the Lannisters gather forces to take it back.  Better example might be Edmure using force to take back River Run.  Or the Starks using force to take back Winterfell.  It's all the same.  And it is a rather bullshit criticism to say someone has less rights because they've never set foot in Westeros.  Inheritance has nothing to do with having touched soil with one's feet.  Inheritance is determined by birth.  In any case, Daenerys and Viserys were both born in Westeros.  Aerys chose Viserys to be his successor.  Dickwad Robb Stark had never set foot in the River Lands before his criminals declared him king.  Viserys has more to back up his right to the title of king than Robb Stark.  

 

Or JonCon taking his castle by force... Or Eusatace Osgrey not accepting royal decrees, or the Blackfyres bringing war to Westeros time after time?? Inheritance has nothing to do with having touched a soil but by birth, agree, that's why the Blackfyres never gave up until they were exterminated, that's my point, it's insane.

A dying and de facto deposed  and at all criminal King chose his son as heir, the lords of the land chose their King... No so difficult to say.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

The Dothraki have a complicated social system for nomads.  It isn't easy for a person from Westeros to understand their culture.  They are basically paid to not sack the Free Cities and perhaps that is where Viserys and Daenerys thought the funding would come from.  After all, they were told khals received lavish payments to keep them sweet.  It is an understandable conclusion to think the funding for the return to Westeros would come from this source.  

Yeah right.

[SeanF]

34 minutes ago, frenin said:

It would be i agree, people feel they have to avenge dead relatives. Btw, Dany does not believe Robert has been sending assasins after them...

 

[...] They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper's hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one.

 

Tywin?? Sure, Robert?? Not so likely. Not that your own ideas are a valid causus belli, but then again there are far worse than that, ask Renly if not. Prior the poisoning Dany is just a warmonger ready to bring destruction to a continent over a delusion, her justifications are pretty much nonexistent, after the poisoning she is still a warmonger chasing delusions but at least she has a causus belli.

 

 

 

What right, legal or otherwise had Rhaella when she crowned Viserys?? Why that crowning has any more value than Gaemon Palehair... or well Robb?? It is theirs you say, care to say why?? At least 4 Kingdoms wanted to do nothing with the Targs, their opinion is irrelevant then?? 

Robert always said that his warhammer was his claim, which isan awful lesson he taught to a very impressionable Renly, He, more than likely, declared that the Targs were invalidated to rule because both Rhagar and Aerys broke the feudal contract, if not he just took it. And ofc it's silly make a difference between the Targs and Starks, they are all entitled  people. The only thing you can say is that the Starks had not lost their momentum yet and the majoriyt of Westeros still consider them the rightful rulers if the North, in 15 years, that momemtum will be lost.

 

 

Or JonCon taking his castle by force... Or Eusatace Osgrey not accepting royal decrees, or the Blackfyres bringing war to Westeros time after time?? Inheritance has nothing to do with having touched a soil but by birth, agree, that's why the Blackfyres never gave up until they were exterminated, that's my point, it's insane.

A dying and de facto deposed  and at all criminal King chose his son as heir, the lords of the land chose their King... No so difficult to say.

 

 

 

Yeah right.

In this world, anyone other than Septon Merribald is a warmonger.  

Daenerys has as much justification for war as Robb Stark, Arianne Martell, Stannis, or any of the other power players.  In this world, war is the Last Argument of Kings - pretty much everyone sees it as a legitimate method of settling disputes.

I would draw little distinction between Tywin killing half my family, and Robert rewarding him for it, and driving me into exile.

[frenin]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In this world, anyone other than Septon Merribald is a warmonger.  

Daenerys has as much justification for war as Robb Stark, Arianne Martell, Stannis, or any of the other power players.  

As it is none, but as i said before, at least the other power players know what they are fighting for, at least Viserys or hell Aegon 1, knew what they are fighting for.

There are a number of awful things that i would've done in the same context because i would have the same context, i would've done the same Mirri allegedly did, i would've done the same to Mirri if i were Dany, i would more than likely have lost my shit too if i were in Rickard Karstark's boots. That doesn't mean what they did is right or justified.

17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I would draw little distinction between Tywin killing half my family, and Robert rewarding him for it, and driving me into exile.

Well, since Robert did not reward Tywin for the deed not drovet them into exile...

[SeanF]

25 minutes ago, frenin said:

As it is none, but as i said before, at least the other power players know what they are fighting for, at least Viserys or hell Aegon 1, knew what they are fighting for.

There are a number of awful things that i would've done in the same context because i would have the same context, i would've done the same Mirri allegedly did, i would've done the same to Mirri if i were Dany, i would more than likely have lost my shit too if i were in Rickard Karstark's boots. That doesn't mean what they did is right or justified.

Well, since Robert did not reward Tywin for the deed not drovet them into exile...

The Lannisters own the government, and it would plainly not be safe for them to have returned to Westeros.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 hours ago, frenin said:

I've already said that all that most have is entitlement and that is a very shitty reason.

Yes & I've agreed with it & explained to you the purpose of my post???

12 hours ago, frenin said:

I dunno, what is the difference between Maelys the Monstrous Gaemon Palehair and Dany?? At least Gaemon knew what he was trying to usurp, Dany and Maelys never set a foot in Westeros, they don't  know nothing more about Westeros besides what  they were being told since kids, you can change Westeros with Yi Ti, the Summer Isles or Asshai, it don't matter, it's a dream, birthright is no diferent than dellusion in this context.  

Birthright is no different than delusion in any context but that doesn't mean they call it a dream rather than a birthright. I don't know what difference it makes that she has seen Westeros or not. It is her belief that her family had the throne ursurped from them & her brothers birthright stolen. After her brother dies, she is his heir & it is now her birthright. 

I understand it can be argued whether or not it is actually her birthright or not but that doesn't change the fact that this is how she sees it, not as a dream. 

Stannis believes his birthright has been stolen as well, is it then a silly dream of his to sit the IT? 

13 hours ago, frenin said:

She knows it's hers you say, has she ever passed a poll around Westeros?? Does she believe that the kingdoms than rebelled against her family and deposed them are also hers?? She knows it's hers because she was told it's hers, it's that all it's needed?? If Dany was told Yi Ti is hers, wouldn't that be a dellusion either??

Oh come now. She doesn't think it's hers merely because she was told. She knows her family conquered Westeros & sat the throne for many generations. She knows Robert & Co rebelled against them & defeated them, taking the IT from her family. She knows her father sat this throne during this rebellion & that he, along with his heir were killed during the rebellion, effectively making her other brother the heir. She knows that brother was killed by her husband, making her his heir. 

There is much more than just being "told" it's hers. 

13 hours ago, frenin said:

I don't know how can it be said that Westeros isn't a dream when Dany presents it as a fairy world, Or is the argument that the more time it passes the the stronger is her believe that said fairy world is hers by rights??

It isn't presented as a fairy world. You understand well & fine why she believes the IT belongs to her & whether or not she is right has no bearing on the fact that it isn't because she is delusional. 

13 hours ago, frenin said:

Never said she wasn't her own person overall, i'm talking about a thing in which she can't be her own person, simply because she's being moved by others, her desire for the throne, at least she won't be until she gets to Westeros.

You said she could only possess anger & hate or hate & revenge or something like that because that's all she is taught by Viserys. Does this not imply the only emotions she is capable of are the ones Viserys gave to her? The only thoughts she is capable of are the ones Viserys gave to her? 

To say she can't be her own person because she is being moved by others is just false. She is clearly her own person & the author went to great lengths to show her difference to Viserys. 

13 hours ago, frenin said:

She disregarded  a lot of things her brother taught her. The only thing she had come to admit, or at least partially,  is the fact her father was mad, not that he even was a monster,  and even then that did not change one bit about what Viserys indoctrinated her.

What actions, beliefs, feelings, emotions, has she carried over from Viseryss word alone? She believed him when she was young & now has accepted that what she has told him needs to be questioned, so she is questioning it. 

13 hours ago, frenin said:

Does Dany show a variety of emotions other than she had been taught by her brother regarding Ned?? Nope, she outright says he got what he sought. Barristan knows Ned and has told her that he was thankful about losing the white cloak for not having a part in Ned's execution and what she does?? Displaying the exact emotions she had been taught since a kid. Don't really know how we can say she's not chasing a dream and fighting ghosts when she does not want to listen hard truths about the robellion so those ghosts she's being worshipping or hating don't get to change.

You cannot take one instance where she has feelings toward a man that she has every right & logical reason to feel as evidence that she knows or feels nothing except what Viserys told her. 

Not wanting to listen to hard truths does not = chasing a dream. One thing has nothing to do with the other. What should she care about Robb's rebellion or Ned's demise? These are people who helped to kill her father & ursurp the throne. You think she should just sit down & have a nice chat with them to figure out what kind of people they are before being angry about what was done to her family? Who would do that? 

She does attempt to listen to hard truths when she asks Barristan about her father anyway. 

She isn't worshipping or hating any ghosts. That was Robert. 

13 hours ago, frenin said:

She wouldn't habe been born if the rebels hadn't rebel... or at least if Lord Chelsted wasn't a goddam hero.

I'm still not following. 

13 hours ago, frenin said:

Upset?? Ok, revengy?? Not so much.

She has every single reason & right to want revenge upon the people who killed her family. I understand her father was mad, but he was her father. I don't understand why you think she couldn't or shouldn't want revenge upon them? 

13 hours ago, frenin said:

nd at the end of the day, the family she knows and for  what she's set to punish the traitors are the dellusions of a dellusional and sheltered 8 year old. Well, if her family were to live in the exile she got to live, i very much doubt her situation would be much better. 

LOL! The delusions of a delusional 8 year old?! Was it a delusion that her father was murdered by a member of his own KG? Was it a delusion that the man that ursurped the throne killed her brother in battle? Was it an delusion that her niece & nephew were brutually murdered along with their mother? 

You seriously don't think being able to live with her father or Rhaegar in exile would be better than living with Viserys, who besides being young himself is a snot-nosed, arrogant, self-centered, douche barely able to take care of himself? 

Rhaegar & Aerys would have friends in which they could rely on, get help from, they are old enough to take care of Daenerys etc. 

13 hours ago, frenin said:

Well, the lamb people were targetted as means to get money to go to Westeros...

So? There is page upon page of argument in regards to Dany's culpability in this. If you disagree, give some points you disagree on & I'm happy to discuss them with you. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Tywin?? Sure, Robert?? Not so likely. Not that your own ideas are a valid causus belli, but then again there are far worse than that, ask Renly if not. Prior the poisoning Dany is just a warmonger ready to bring destruction to a continent over a delusion, her justifications are pretty much nonexistent, after the poisoning she is still a warmonger chasing delusions but at least she has a causus belli.

Why would she want revenge against Tywin & not Robert? 

Your personal opinions on the characters do not determine their right. Dany has just as much right to try to reclaim the throne, by force, as Robert did to claim it by force to begin with. 

The poisoning made it worse in that now the King has made a direct attempt at Dany's life. Khal Drogo & Daenerys have very right, up to & including the basic human right to survival & self-defense to respond in kind. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

As it is none, but as i said before, at least the other power players know what they are fighting for, at least Viserys or hell Aegon 1, knew what they are fighting for.

You keep saying this as if it gives the others some justification that is not awarded to Daenerys. She knows full & well what she is fighting for. She states it several times. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Well, since Robert did not reward Tywin for the deed not drovet them into exile...

Yes he did reward him for the deed & was the very person who bested her brother in combat, the very person whose arse took the place of her fathers on the IT. But you're right, it's all Tywin LOL 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

6 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

Viserys was crowned King of Westeros by Queen Rhaella; therefore, he and his heir (Princess Daenerys) have all the rights to rule that continent.  It is theirs.

A monarchy.... if you can keep it.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

The Lannisters own the government, and it would plainly not be safe for them to have returned to Westeros.

Obviously, still, the new rule didn't drove them out of exile as far as we know Jon Arryn took no action against them, Willem Darry wisely decided not to take any chances with Robert.

 

 

31 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Birthright is no different than delusion in any context but that doesn't mean they call it a dream rather than a birthright. I don't know what difference it makes that she has seen Westeros or not. It is her belief that her family had the throne ursurped from them & her brothers birthright stolen. After her brother dies, she is his heir & it is now her birthright. 

I understand it can be argued whether or not it is actually her birthright or not but that doesn't change the fact that this is how she sees it, not as a dream. 

Stannis believes his birthright has been stolen as well, is it then a silly dream of his to sit the IT? 

For me it's rather telling, i don't think it's remotely the same fighting or warring for something or someone you know, you've touched, you've felt tan for someone or something totally unknown to you, the way Dany talks about Westeros is the same way people talk about a fantasy and she makes a point about it being completely alien to her, i know she sees it as her birthright and that's my point.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh come now. She doesn't think it's hers merely because she was told. She knows her family conquered Westeros & sat the throne for many generations. She knows Robert & Co rebelled against them & defeated them, taking the IT from her family. She knows her father sat this throne during this rebellion & that he, along with his heir were killed during the rebellion, effectively making her other brother the heir. She knows that brother was killed by her husband, making her his heir. 

There is much more than just being "told" it's hers. 

Hmm, how has she come to know all that??

 

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It isn't presented as a fairy world. You understand well & fine why she believes the IT belongs to her & whether or not she is right has no bearing on the fact that it isn't because she is delusional. 

It is.

 

Somewhere beyond the sunset, across the narrow sea, lay a land of green hills and flowered plains and great rushing rivers, where towers of dark stone rose amidst magnificent blue-grey mountains, and armored knights rode to battle beneath the banners of their lords. The Dothraki called that land Rhaesh Andahli, the land of the Andals. In the Free Cities, they talked of Westeros and the Sunset Kingdoms. Her brother had a simpler name. "Our land," he called it. The words were like a prayer with him. If he said them enough, the gods were sure to hear. "Ours by blood right, taken from us by treachery, but ours still, ours forever. You do not steal from the dragon, oh, no. The dragon remembers."

And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. She had never seen this land her brother said was theirs, this realm beyond the narrow sea. These places he talked of, Casterly Rock and the Eyrie, Highgarden and the Vale of Arryn, Dorne and the Isle of Faces, they were just words to her. Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb.

 

I doubt it can get more fairy tail-ish...

I don't enter in whether or not she is right it's hers or Joffrey and Stannis believe it's theirs, i don't think it's any relevant to the point because we had already accorded that belief doesn't mean all that much in our eyes, 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You said she could only possess anger & hate or hate & revenge or something like that because that's all she is taught by Viserys. Does this not imply the only emotions she is capable of are the ones Viserys gave to her? The only thoughts she is capable of are the ones Viserys gave to her? 

To say she can't be her own person because she is being moved by others is just false. She is clearly her own person & the author went to great lengths to show her difference to Viserys. 

I was talking about one specific case, the Robellion and her family, she isn't her own person because she's carrrying all the prejudices Viserys had taught her.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What actions, beliefs, feelings, emotions, has she carried over from Viseryss word alone? She believed him when she was young & now has accepted that what she has told him needs to be questioned, so she is questioning it. 

Is that it?? If so, she would've listened Barri when he was advocating fir Ned.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You cannot take one instance where she has feelings toward a man that she has every right & logical reason to feel as evidence that she knows or feels nothing except what Viserys told her. 

Not wanting to listen to hard truths does not = chasing a dream. One thing has nothing to do with the other. What should she care about Robb's rebellion or Ned's demise? These are people who helped to kill her father & ursurp the throne. You think she should just sit down & have a nice chat with them to figure out what kind of people they are before being angry about what was done to her family? Who would do that? 

She does attempt to listen to hard truths when she asks Barristan about her father anyway. 

She isn't worshipping or hating any ghosts. That was Robert. 

 I can, i didn't say that Dany is always following Visery's words, i said that regarding the Robellion and her family, Dany wasn't alive then, so Viserys words are the only thing she has, she is  not mad about the usurper betraying her family, she's mad about  the Usurper and his dogs Viserys had painted to her betraying the idyllic family and Realm Viserys had painted. Hate does not appear of a vacuum.

I don't know how  one should call it, Dany is chasing the tales Viserys told her, she should not care about Ned or Robert or Robb, nor Barristan was focusing in them, Barristan was making an offhand comment, Dany focused in her and when corrected she refused to listen... using Viserys' words as shield.

Yes, Dany attempts to listen. But it doesn't last long right?? 

And yes Robert was chasing and worshipping ghosts and refused to listen to any order truth that might shake his narrow worldview… seems like a cousins thing.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She has every single reason & right to want revenge upon the people who killed her family. I understand her father was mad, but he was her father. I don't understand why you think she couldn't or shouldn't want revenge upon them? 

Agree to disagree i guess.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

LOL! The delusions of a delusional 8 year old?! Was it a delusion that her father was murdered by a member of his own KG? Was it a delusion that the man that ursurped the throne killed her brother in battle? Was it an delusion that her niece & nephew were brutually murdered along with their mother? 

You seriously don't think being able to live with her father or Rhaegar in exile would be better than living with Viserys, who besides being young himself is a snot-nosed, arrogant, self-centered, douche barely able to take care of himself? 

Rhaegar & Aerys would have friends in which they could rely on, get help from, they are old enough to take care of Daenerys etc. 

It is delusion that her father was a great man, it is delusion that the rebels hadn't a reason to rebel… Come on now, i think the point is clear, Dany has being taught and has grown up with a completely black&version of the Robellion, more likely tan not because an 8 year old Viserys was also being told a completely black&white version of the story. And from that comes Dany's biases,  you might say, well Dany might come to terms with all her family  bs and decide that th rebels are assholes whp deserve a Dracarys in their asses. It might very well be, but she stiill has to reach to that point.

I can admit that Rhaegar sounds nice enough, even when i don't really know how people used to the highest luxury would fend themselves and to Viserys credit he did it pretty well but i don't know how a mad person would be any improvement, nor why no one would want to help a rapey mad guy.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So? There is page upon page of argument in regards to Dany's culpability in this. If you disagree, give some points you disagree on & I'm happy to discuss them with you. 

Sure.

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Why would she want revenge against Tywin & not Robert? 

One could say because Tywin slaughtered innocent members of her family and Robert killed Rhaegar in battle.

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Your personal opinions on the characters do not determine their right. Dany has just as much right to try to reclaim the throne, by force, as Robert did to claim it by force to begin with. 

The poisoning made it worse in that now the King has made a direct attempt at Dany's life. Khal Drogo & Daenerys have very right, up to & including the basic human right to survival & self-defense to respond in kind. 

 

Never said that Dany has any less right to reclaim the Throne that Bobby, i said that her right to claim is exactly the same as the Starks, or Robert or Stannis. As far as i can tell we're discussing our personal opinions about characters' actions and the consequences of it.

Saying that Renly had no right to try and usurp the throne is not saying that he couldn't do what he did.

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes he did reward him for the deed & was the very person who bested her brother in combat, the very person whose arse took the place of her fathers on the IT. But you're right, it's all Tywin LOL 

He did not, he didn't marry Cersei because Tywin had done him a solid and the rest disagree but bueh.

 

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

 

If my sister in law and her infant children were slaughtered by the new ruler's father in law, and the new ruler gloated over it (as Robert did), that would be a pretty strong inducement for me to stay away from Westeros, and I see no reason why I should be expected to just suck it up.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

49 minutes ago, frenin said:

Obviously, still, the new rule didn't drove them out of exile as far as we know Jon Arryn took no action against them, Willem Darry wisely decided not to take any chances with Robert.

 

 

For me it's rather telling, i don't think it's remotely the same fighting or warring for something or someone you know, you've touched, you've felt tan for someone or something totally unknown to you, the way Dany talks about Westeros is the same way people talk about a fantasy and she makes a point about it being completely alien to her, i know she sees it as her birthright and that's my point.

 

 

 

Hmm, how has she come to know all that??

 

 

It is.

 

Somewhere beyond the sunset, across the narrow sea, lay a land of green hills and flowered plains and great rushing rivers, where towers of dark stone rose amidst magnificent blue-grey mountains, and armored knights rode to battle beneath the banners of their lords. The Dothraki called that land Rhaesh Andahli, the land of the Andals. In the Free Cities, they talked of Westeros and the Sunset Kingdoms. Her brother had a simpler name. "Our land," he called it. The words were like a prayer with him. If he said them enough, the gods were sure to hear. "Ours by blood right, taken from us by treachery, but ours still, ours forever. You do not steal from the dragon, oh, no. The dragon remembers."

And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. She had never seen this land her brother said was theirs, this realm beyond the narrow sea. These places he talked of, Casterly Rock and the Eyrie, Highgarden and the Vale of Arryn, Dorne and the Isle of Faces, they were just words to her. Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb.

 

I doubt it can get more fairy tail-ish...

I don't enter in whether or not she is right it's hers or Joffrey and Stannis believe it's theirs, i don't think it's any relevant to the point because we had already accorded that belief doesn't mean all that much in our eyes, 

 

 

I was talking about one specific case, the Robellion and her family, she isn't her own person because she's carrrying all the prejudices Viserys had taught her.

 

 

 

Is that it?? If so, she would've listened Barri when he was advocating fir Ned.

 

 

 I can, i didn't say that Dany is always following Visery's words, i said that regarding the Robellion and her family, Dany wasn't alive then, so Viserys words are the only thing she has, she is  not mad about the usurper betraying her family, she's mad about  the Usurper and his dogs Viserys had painted to her betraying the idyllic family and Realm Viserys had painted. Hate does not appear of a vacuum.

I don't know how  one should call it, Dany is chasing the tales Viserys told her, she should not care about Ned or Robert or Robb, nor Barristan was focusing in them, Barristan was making an offhand comment, Dany focused in her and when corrected she refused to listen... using Viserys' words as shield.

Yes, Dany attempts to listen. But it doesn't last long right?? 

And yes Robert was chasing and worshipping ghosts and refused to listen to any order truth that might shake his narrow worldview… seems like a cousins thing.

 

 

Agree to disagree i guess.

 

 

It is delusion that her father was a great man, it is delusion that the rebels hadn't a reason to rebel… Come on now, i think the point is clear, Dany has being taught and has grown up with a completely black&version of the Robellion, more likely tan not because an 8 year old Viserys was also being told a completely black&white version of the story. And from that comes Dany's biases,  you might say, well Dany might come to terms with all her family  bs and decide that th rebels are assholes whp deserve a Dracarys in their asses. It might very well be, but she stiill has to reach to that point.

I can admit that Rhaegar sounds nice enough, even when i don't really know how people used to the highest luxury would fend themselves and to Viserys credit he did it pretty well but i don't know how a mad person would be any improvement, nor why no one would want to help a rapey mad guy.

 

 

Sure.

 

One could say because Tywin slaughtered innocent members of her family and Robert killed Rhaegar in battle.

 

 

Never said that Dany has any less right to reclaim the Throne that Bobby, i said that her right to claim is exactly the same as the Starks, or Robert or Stannis. As far as i can tell we're discussing our personal opinions about characters' actions and the consequences of it.

Saying that Renly had no right to try and usurp the throne is not saying that he couldn't do what he did.

 

He did not, he didn't marry Cersei because Tywin had done him a solid and the rest disagree but bueh.

 

I think we are going to have to just agree to disagree because I don't see what difference it makes whether or not Dany has been to or seen Westeros or if she met the family members that were slaughtered. 

I agree she has been given a one-sided account of what happened during RR, but she is asking questions. Given time she the truth will come out, whether she accepts it as such or not. The fact that she is asking lets us know she understands she has only gotten one side of the what happened & that Viserys may not be a very reliable source. 

 

[teej6]

Dany’s rights or sense of entitlement to the throne of Westeros does not justify the mass murder and mayhem she is willing to unleash on Westeros with the Dothraki horde. I don’t equate Rob going to war with the Lannisters to free his father with Dany unleashing the Dothraki on Westeros to claim a Kingdom and people that she hardly knows. Dany’s grievance and memories are not her own but one instilled in her by her batshit crazy brother.

In her own words, Dany indirectly states that she has no claim to Westeros. In one of her chapters, she denies a rich widow her claim to her house in Meereen and allows the squatters and prostitutes to keep the house because the widow fled. The woman’s husband and sons died fighting to save their home. This is exactly the same as Rhaella’s situation. She fled KL with Viserys. By Dany’s logic her mother and brother lost their claim when they fled KL. By extension, Dany also lost her claim. I think GRRM put that passage in there as an analogy to Dany’s situation, for the reader’s to question whether she still has any right to the throne of Westeros. 

ETA: Apologies for digressing, this is not the subject of the thread

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Dany’s rights or sense of entitlement to the throne of Westeros does not justify the mass murder and mayhem she is willing to unleash on Westeros with the Dothraki horde. I don’t equate Rob going to war with the Lannisters to free his father with Dany unleashing the Dothraki on Westeros to claim a Kingdom and people that she hardly knows. Dany’s grievance and memories are not her own but one instilled in her by her batshit crazy brother.

That's all there ever is though. With the exception of the beginning of Robb's rebellion (because after his father dies, it turns into a rebellion over entitlement & revenge) almost all of the wars & rebellions are fought over a sense of entitlement. 

None of them justify the mass murder & mayhem that are inflicted on the realm, each & every time. The Dothraki may commit more atrocities or worse atrocities, or they may not. Under Khal Drogo they likely would but under Dany it makes no sense for her not to instruct them to not decimate every single building & kill off & rape & pillage all the small folk. War is nasty, regardless who engages in it. 

Most of the kings/queens would be ruling over people they hardly know, with the small exception of those who went out of their way to make the small folk love them, & even then they wouldn't be best friends or anything. 

Knowing them doesn't really make any difference to me. 

I also don't understand how or why you & frenin say the grievances are not her own. If your mother died while you were in the womb, and your brother told you about her, would you not still grieve her? Would that grief not still be your own? I would. 

If your father was murdered before you were born & your brother told you of him & the person/people that murdered him would you not still grieve him? Would you not still have ill feelings towards the person/people that robbed you of a father? I would. 

14 minutes ago, teej6 said:

In her own words, Dany indirectly states that she has no claim to Westeros. In one of her chapters, she denies a rich widow her claim to her house in Meereen and allows the squatters and prostitutes to keep the house because the widow fled. The woman’s husband and sons died fighting to save their home. This is exactly the same as Rhaella’s situation. She fled KL with Viserys. By Dany’s logic her mother and brother lost their claim when they fled KL. By extension, Dany also lost her claim. I think GRRM put that passage in there as an analogy to Dany’s situation, for the reader’s to question whether she still has any right to the throne of Westeros. 

There are some very big differences between Dany & the widow though. First & foremost, she was an infant in her mothers womb so the choice to flee was not her own. Secondly, Dany did not own slaves, putting her in a position to have those slaves rise against her & boot her from her house. 

It can certainly be argued that Dany has no right to the IT. I'm of the opinion that no one really has any right to it & in universe might is right so by those standards, who ever can take it, can have it. 

[teej6]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I also don't understand how or why you & frenin say the grievances are not her own. If your mother died while you were in the womb, and your brother told you about her, would you not still grieve her? Would that grief not still be your own? I would. 

If your father was murdered before you were born & your brother told you of him & the person/people that murdered him would you not still grieve him? Would you not still have ill feelings towards the person/people that robbed you of a father? I would. 

There are some very big differences between Dany & the widow though. First & foremost, she was an infant in her mothers womb so the choice to flee was not her own. Secondly, Dany did not own slaves, putting her in a position to have those slaves rise against her & boot her from her house. 

It can certainly be argued that Dany has no right to the IT. I'm of the opinion that no one really has any right to it & in universe might is right so by those standards, who ever can take it, can have it. 

Actually I’m not really arguing that Dany shouldn’t have any grievance against Robert or the people who displaced her family. I’m sorry if that’s the impression I gave. I just feel that her perception and understanding of events is still warped by Viserys views on it. Dany still hasn’t acknowledged that her father was a madman and tyrant and that the Starks and Robert’s reasons for going to war with him was justifiable. That’s the part of her understanding and delusion that I find troubling. Besides, she also doesn’t understand Westeros and its people and apart from her few conversations with Selmy, she doesn’t make much of an attempt to try and learn more.

Dany was an infant no doubt but still in the widow’s analogy, her mother and brother’s claim was nullified when they fled. It doesn’t matter if they owned slaves or not.

I agree, if Dany can conquer the IT and keep it, it’s hers just as it was Robert’s. In a weird sort of way, Cersei also won the IT for her brood through subterfuge and deception. But until Dany retakes the IT, it’s the Baratheon/ Lannister crown. The vassal Lords of Westeros accepted Robert as their King and he ruled as such for more than a decade. 

I know others have claimed that the Starks have also lost all claim to WF. In my view, the situations are not comparable. Although the Starks lost WF, the memory is fresh and most of the Northern Lords have not fully accepted a Bolton as their liege and are looking for any opportunity to strike the Boltons and install a Stark if they can find one. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Actually I’m not really arguing that Dany shouldn’t have any grievance against Robert or the people who displaced her family. I’m sorry if that’s the impression I gave.

No, I'm sorry. I assumed that is what you were saying. 

8 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I just feel that her perception and understanding of events is still warped by Viserys views on it. Dany still hasn’t acknowledged that her father was a madman and tyrant and that the Starks and Robert’s reasons for going to war with him was justifiable.

Yeah, they are warped by Viserys because that's the only view point she has ever had. She is recognizing that Viserys may not be the most reliable narrator though & is asking questions. 

I think seeing her father as a man who did good for the realm but eventually went off the deep end will be a long hard road for her. I think she may eventually get there though, it may break her, but she may get there. 

10 minutes ago, teej6 said:

That’s the part of her understanding and delusion that I find troubling. Besides, she also doesn’t understand Westeros and its people and apart from her few conversations with Selmy, she doesn’t make much of an attempt to try and learn more.

Yeah, she isn't there yet either. Or even on her way there yet. She will either attempt to know the truth of it & the ways of the Westerosi people & potentially become a good ruler or she won't & will become a poor ruler. 

I totally get & understand what you are saying, I just think time is not up yet for that. 

12 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Dany was an infant no doubt but still in the widow’s analogy, her mother and brother’s claim was nullified when they fled. It doesn’t matter if they owned slaves or not.

The fact that they owned slaves may matter in Dany's decision making process though. I don't see her ever coming full turn with this & saying "Oh, My mother & brother negated their claim when they fled so I really have no claim." Of course, it may have been put in there for the readers to come full turn & say by Daeneryss own word & law she has no right to Westeros, which I think is what you are getting at right? It's interesting definitely. 

14 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I agree, if Dany can conquer the IT and keep it, it’s hers just as it was Robert’s. In a weird sort of way, Cersei also won the IT for her brood through subterfuge and deception. But until Dany retakes the IT, it’s the Baratheon/ Lannister crown. The vassal Lords of Westeros accepted Robert as their King and he ruled as such for more than a decade. 

Yeah, I agree. I don't really by into all this "birthright" crap but the people of Westeros do. But yeah in this particular case birthright really doesn't matter at all. Robert conquered & took the IT so the only way for Dany to take it back is by force, which anyone could do (provided they could find enough force) regardless of their heritage or blood. 

18 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I know others have claimed that the Starks have also lost all claim to WF. In my view, the situations are not comparable. Although the Starks lost WF, the memory is fresh and most of the Northern Lords have not fully accepted a Bolton as their liege and are looking for any opportunity to strike the Boltons and install a Stark if they can find one. 

Absolutely, this may have been a similar case with the Targs in the beginning. They have been gone too long to have any real support remaining IMO. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

If Dany’s loss of her home was meant to be “the same” as the Starks’, we would have read about it in real time, with Dany about the age of Viserys, when it happened. But because her loss is all in flashback and told through a dead characters memories, it introduces a lot more problems and pathologies for things to go wrong. Her dreams of Westeros are like Sansa’s dreams of Kings Landing, but this time instead of tea and lemon cakes it’s blood and murder so her “dreams” can come true. Imagine if Lyanna Mormont decided to declare war on Braavos, a place she’s never seen on a continent she’s never been to, because her dad and brother were rightfully killed and lost their castle there and she wants it back, even though she already has a throne of her own. Then, compare that to the Starks’ dream to reunite with their family at Winterfell. What even.

[SeanF]

27 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If Dany’s loss of her home was meant to be “the same” as the Starks’, we would have read about it in real time, with Dany about the age of Viserys, when it happened. But because her loss is all in flashback and told through a dead characters memories, it introduces a lot more problems and pathologies for things to go wrong. Her dreams of Westeros are like Sansa’s dreams of Kings Landing, but this time instead of tea and lemon cakes it’s blood and murder so her “dreams” can come true. Imagine if Lyanna Mormont decided to declare war on Braavos, a place she’s never seen on a continent she’s never been to, because her dad and brother were rightfully killed and lost their castle there and she wants it back, even though she already has a throne of her own. Then, compare that to the Starks’ dream to reunite with their family at Winterfell. What even.

The Jews spent 80 years dreaming of returning to Jerusalem from Babylon.  The desire to return home is very enduring among human beings.  Any number of modern political movements draw inspiration from it.

I don't doubt if the Starks had lost Winterfell a generation ago, the current generation would want to get it back.

That said, I expect Daenerys, like Robert, would hate sitting the Iron Throne, if she won it, so there is an element of "be careful what you wish for."

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If Dany’s loss of her home was meant to be “the same” as the Starks’, we would have read about it in real time, with Dany about the age of Viserys, when it happened. But because her loss is all in flashback and told through a dead characters memories, it introduces a lot more problems and pathologies for things to go wrong. Her dreams of Westeros are like Sansa’s dreams of Kings Landing, but this time instead of tea and lemon cakes it’s blood and murder so her “dreams” can come true. Imagine if Lyanna Mormont decided to declare war on Braavos, a place she’s never seen on a continent she’s never been to, because her dad and brother were rightfully killed and lost their castle there and she wants it back, even though she already has a throne of her own. Then, compare that to the Starks’ dream to reunite with their family at Winterfell. What even.

What @SeanF said. Also, I don't think anyone is trying to say it's the same as the Starks - maybe I missed it. There are similarities & differences. 

It also isn't just that her dad & brother were rightfully killed. Although I agree with Jaime's decision to kill Aerys, even some of Robert's supporters say that was not a rightful kill. 

Dany invading Westeros & killing the current King/Queen would be just as rightful then no? They removed her family from the throne & she wants to take it back. 

Wars IRL typically do happen with people who have little to no experience with the people they are waging war on so I fail to see what the Lyanna analogy means exactly. That it may turn out very poorly for Daenerys if she doesn't make some effort to learn the ways of Westeros? Agreed but in universe that doesn't remove her claim to the throne.