Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

On 2/15/2020 at 1:30 PM, SeanF said:

Leaving aside the question of Dany v Mirri, lets think about what took place, when Mirri was burned and Dany walked into the pyre.

1. My impression is that Dany is not entirely in control of events, here.  She is no magician, but she is working a very powerful form of black magic

2. She was meant to hatch dragons, in the same way that Bilbo was meant to find the One Ring.

3. But, what entity is at work here?  A benevolent deity or a malevolent demon?

4. Or is human sacrifice morally neutral in this world?

5. What took place in the pyre?  Who or what did Dany encounter?  

6.  Did Dany give the entity that hatched dragons a claim on her soul?

7.  Is Dany damned as a result?

#4. That was an execution of one of the worst criminals, Mirri Maaz Duur, in the story.  She murdered Rheago, but the worst part is the betrayal of Daenerys Targaryen.  It was an execution.  This execution really cannot be criticized without also criticizing Stannis Baratheon for roasting his own men.  Burning MMD was a completely justifiable action.  

#3.  In this case, benevolent.  Magic is not wrong.  After all, the Stark supporters do not fault the Starks and their warging.  Which is really mind control and the worst form of enslavement possible.  Compared to what the ice heads do, yeah, this was benevolent.

[Narsil4]

16 minutes ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

She murdered Rheago,

It looks like Rhaego was being turned into a dragon. 

Quote

He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. 

Which seems more like the Mother of Dragon's area of expertise.. 

MMD's plan just seemed to be to sacrifice a horse to animate Drogo's mindless body. 

So she might very well be innocent. 

[corbon]

On 2/16/2020 at 2:18 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Guilty of what & witnessed by who?

Threatening the life of the crown prince. "Come out and die".

Witnessed by everyone in the courtyard of the Red Keep.

Quote

Jaime poured the last half cup of wine. "He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder. The others were lords' sons too, it seems to me."

I'm of the opinion that there were exigent circumstances relevant to the case that demanded some consideration and maybe leniency.
But the fact is, Brandon was guilty and his actions were public.

As Hoster said, a fool, even if a gallant fool.

[Darth Sidious]

15 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think they would have a lot of support in Kings Landing and the Crownlands (they have no reason to view the current regime with affection).  Probably in Dorne, and much of the Reach.

Those places and more. The Targaryens kept the kingdom together for 300 years.  The damn Baratheons couldn't even manage one succession from Robert to the next.  The Baratheons, Starks, and Lannisters ruined Westeros.  

[Darth Sidious]

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Threatening the life of the crown prince. "Come out and die".

Witnessed by everyone in the courtyard of the Red Keep.

I'm of the opinion that there were exigent circumstances relevant to the case that demanded some consideration and maybe leniency.
But the fact is, Brandon was guilty and his actions were public.

As Hoster said, a fool, even if a gallant fool.

Some leniency if Brandon and his companions got down on their knees and begged forgiveness from Aerys.  

[Darth Sidious]

5 hours ago, Narsil4 said:

It looks like Rhaego was being turned into a dragon. 

Which seems more like the Mother of Dragon's area of expertise.. 

MMD's plan just seemed to be to sacrifice a horse to animate Drogo's mindless body. 

So she might very well be innocent. 

If she was innocent she would have said so, instead of boasting "now he will burn no cities." Which will come across as bragging for doing the murder.  MMD was not exactly right in the head and even bragged about not screaming.  

[SeanF]

13 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

If she was innocent she would have said so, instead of boasting "now he will burn no cities." Which will come across as bragging for doing the murder.  MMD was not exactly right in the head and even bragged about not screaming.  

I think it's possible that she claimed credit for something she did not do.

But, I think Daenerys would be entitled to take her at her word.

[Narsil4]

21 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

If she was innocent she would have said so,

I get the impression that MMD didn't really understand what had happened. 
So she couldn't have said for sure if she was responsible or not. 

I suspect she was just saying anything she could to try and hurt Dany before she was killed. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Threatening the life of the crown prince. "Come out and die".

Witnessed by everyone in the courtyard of the Red Keep.

I'm of the opinion that there were exigent circumstances relevant to the case that demanded some consideration and maybe leniency.
But the fact is, Brandon was guilty and his actions were public.

As Hoster said, a fool, even if a gallant fool.

Yeah, I was curious to know what exactly the poster thought Brandon's crimes were because I'm of the the opinion that particular crime did not fit the punishment. 

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I was curious to know what exactly the poster thought Brandon's crimes were because I'm of the the opinion that particular crime did not fit the punishment. 

The real problem is that Aerys cheated.  Rickard was entitled to trial by combat, but he murdered both him and his son in a revolting fashion.

Aerys had to go.  Perhaps the dynasty did.  But, there were viable alternatives to butchering women and children (and those would have been the fates of Rhaella, Visery, and Dany, had they fallen into the victors' hands).

[frenin]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Aerys had to go.  Perhaps the dynasty did.  But, there were viable alternatives to butchering women and children (and those would have been the fates of Rhaella, Visery, and Dany, had they fallen into the victors' hands).

How do you know?? Ned was clearly against it, old Jon convinced Robert to let Dany and Viserys free and Robert allowed it, it's quite clear that people who believes their cause  righteous don't start  butchering children and almost dead queens.  

I don't really know why people pin Tywin's actions on the rebels and assume that was the rebel's idea from he get go, what makes you think that??

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

How do you know?? Ned was clearly against it, old Jon convinced Robert to let Dany and Viserys free and Robert allowed it, it's quite clear that people who believes their cause  righteous don't start  butchering children and almost dead queens.  

I don't really know why people pin Tywin's actions on the rebels and assume that was the rebel's idea from he get go, what makes you think that??

You keep claiming Robert didn't approve of Tywin's actions, but I can only disagree.  The evidence is clear.  "I see no children, only dragonspawn" - about as vile a comment as anyone could have made in that situation.   He absolutely approved of what Tywin did.  

Robert's attitude was out of sight, out of mind.  But, brought into his presence, that would have been a very different matter.  He wouldn't have killed them himself.  He'd have let others do it for him.

[frenin]

27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

You keep claiming Robert didn't approve of Tywin's actions, but I can only disagree.  The evidence is clear.  "I see no children, only dragonspawn" - about as vile a comment as anyone could have made in that situation.   He absolutely approved of what Tywin did.  

 Robert's attitude was out of sight, out of mind.  But, brought into his presence, that would have been a very different matter.  He wouldn't have killed them himself.  He'd have let others do it for him.

No, I keep saying that they condone his actions, they arrived, saw the scene and went along with it, but there is a rather big difference between be cool with the deed and performing the deed yourself. I'm not talking about Robert particularly but that you're pinning Tywin's actions and Robert's condoning in all the rebels.

And who would do it?? Can you name a rebel leader who advocated for killing them all?? 

 

[SeanF]

25 minutes ago, frenin said:

No, I keep saying that they condone his actions, they arrived, saw the scene and went along with it, but there is a rather big difference between be cool with the deed and performing the deed yourself. I'm not talking about Robert particularly but that you're pinning Tywin's actions and Robert's condoning in all the rebels.

And who would do it?? Can you name a rebel leader who advocated for killing them all?? 

 

Who would do it?  Tywin Lannister, Hoster Tully, Ser Clayton Suggs, Ser Gregor Clegane, Ser Amory Lorch, plenty of beasts in the woods, who would know that Robert would condone their actions.

[frenin]

29 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Who would do it?  Tywin Lannister, Hoster Tully, Ser Clayton Suggs, Ser Gregor Clegane, Ser Amory Lorch, plenty of beasts in the woods, who would know that Robert would condone their actions.

Hoster Tully?? Since when the man kills children on daily basis that he deserves to be in such company?? And no, if they are under Robert's watch, any actions against them is on Robert, not of those beasts in the woods, one of the things Tywin never learnt. And since when Tywin is a rebel leader??

[SeanF]

Just now, frenin said:

Hoster Tully?? Since when the man kills children on daily basis that he deserves to be in such company?? And no, if they are under Robert's watch, any actions against them is on Robert, not of those beasts in the woods, one of the things Tywin never learnt.

Hoster Tully, who massacres villagers of rebel lords.  That Hoster Tully.

[frenin]

32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Hoster Tully, who massacres villagers of rebel lords.  That Hoster Tully.

Just as any other people in war, what do you think Robb was doing in the Westerlands Or Dany is doing in Slaver's Bay?? Do you see them like killing children too??

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

No, I keep saying that they condone his actions, they arrived, saw the scene and went along with it, but there is a rather big difference between be cool with the deed and performing the deed yourself. I'm not talking about Robert particularly but that you're pinning Tywin's actions and Robert's condoning in all the rebels.

There is certainly a difference in being ok with the deed & performing it yourself but Robert goes further than being ok with it right? He is glad of it, he sees dragon spawn. He is also willing to order the murders of Targ children later in the series. I don't think he is as guilty as Tywin & Gregor but he holds some blame here certainly. 

I wouldn't condemn all of them though. Ned & John Arryn I think specifically, were not happy about it & Ned spoke out against it when Robert was sending assassins to kill Dany later. 

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

There is certainly a difference in being ok with the deed & performing it yourself but Robert goes further than being ok with it right? He is glad of it, he sees dragon spawn. He is also willing to order the murders of Targ children later in the series. I don't think he is as guilty as Tywin & Gregor but he holds some blame here certainly. 

 I wouldn't condemn all of them though. Ned & John Arryn I think specifically, were not happy about it & Ned spoke out against it when Robert was sending assassins to kill Dany later. 

I said it more than once, Robert hates them but, as Tywin points, his own idea of him being the hero of the story would prevent him, him and the rest, to outright ordering killing kids,  i do believe that something woul en up happening to Aegon, but killing Rhaenys and Daenerys, besides being abhorrent, is politically dumb.  How is he glad?? Does he congratulate Tywin?? And ofc he holds blame, much blame actually, condoning the murder of innocents is horrible, both morally and penally.

And it's not the same, like at all, ordering Dany and Viserys to get killed when you know they are about to invade you than just for the sake of it, Robert had 14 years to kill them if he wanted, and the moment he made the decision Ned was unable to talk him out of the idea, at the beginning of AGOT Ned again convinces him to not kill them.

 

[SeanF]

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

I said it more than once, Robert hates them but, as Tywin points, his own idea of him being the hero of the story would prevent him, him and the rest, to outright ordering killing kids,  i do believe that something woul en up happening to Aegon, but killing Rhaenys and Daenerys, besides being abhorrent, is politically dumb.  How is he glad?? Does he congratulate Tywin?? And ofc he holds blame, much blame actually, condoning the murder of innocents is horrible, both morally and penally.

And it's not the same, like at all, ordering Dany and Viserys to get killed when you know they are about to invade you than just for the sake of it, Robert had 14 years to kill them if he wanted, and the moment he made the decision Ned was unable to talk him out of the idea, at the beginning of AGOT Ned again convinces him to not kill them.

 

He doesn't have to order it.  He merely has to condone it.  As he did.

And, there are plenty of ways that children and women can contact "chills" or meet other accidents.