Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

[SeanF]

One can say that Daenerys is culpable because she did not commit suicide, or run away from the Khalasar, or try to kill her husband, but none of those fall into the category of reasonable expectations for a character.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Why wouldn't the fact that Dany is making her life more endurable matter to her? Would she rather her life be less endurable? 

I don't think Drogo is the devil but maybe in Mirri's eyes. Being married to is not being though. 

She would prefer having her life back.

Well, if someone like Drogo appears in your door and does what Drogo does… I did not say that Dany is the devil, she's married to him.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That's not a fair comparison. What if a group of people came to your house, sacked it, robbed you, killed your neighbor, (Mirri didn't have any husband or kids) started to rape & abuse you & one of the group stepped forward & made them stop? Whether you had gratitude toward that person or not (I think most people would) you would still understand that this person lessened your abuse, lessened the damage done to  you, lessened the possibility for future abuse. 

How is not a fair comparation?? Mirri didn't have any husband or kids, but she had family, she had dear friends etc.  If someone who wasn't associated with the shitshow came forward, then ofc i would feel gratitude?? If there one of them?? Ofc not. That person did not lessen the damage and abuse done to my people, nor could undone what's been done to me.  Should i forgive and forget then??

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe they don't but Mirri didn't kill any of the society. She didn't target the bloodriders & men that were doing the raping & pillaging. Rhaego did no pillaging & raping, Dany did no pillaging & raping. Whether or not Rhaego was dead from the get go, he was a target of Mirri's by her own words. 

Had she targeted the people who hurt her & her village it would be justice. She targeted the head of the khalasar - rightfully so. But her other target was an unborn baby - In what twisted universe can an unborn baby be guilty of anything? In what way could that possibly be justified? 

She had no right or justification to target Dany either - she didn't try to kill her I don't think but she tried to take everything she held dear. It would have made much more sense if she tried to take everything Drogo held dear considering he is the one that took everything of hers. But she couldn't target Drogo in that way so she exacted her revenge on the weaker Dany.

Dany did any pillaging and raping, she just saw as necessary for her own plans… of vengeance and conquest.

She allegedly targetted a kid who was said to be Drogo with steroids, i suppose that after what happened to her, that perspective wouldn't be appealing. 

 

Ofc she exacted revenge on the weaker Dany, she's not a fool, and how she has no right or justification to target Dany?? Dany is outright living from her misery?? She has a justification to target every one of them, just as any slave should have a justification to trget any of his masters.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It doesn't matter so much what is in Mirri's eyes. We can understand where she is coming from & also understand that she is wrong. She is as wrong as the Dothraki are for targeting all of the Lamb people. She is targeting people who have been nothing but kind to her or in one case an unborn baby. 

I don't think that she's wrong, nor do i understand it as wrong. She made her choice, Dany made hers, i understand both, i don't see as unjustified or wrong either. She owes Little to Dany and  tbf she tries to heal Drogo and the latter is clever enough to do the opposite of what he was said to do.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

She would prefer having her life back

That wasn't the question. By the time Daenerys came upon her that was no longer a choice. You keep saying that what Dany did made no difference when it clearly did make a difference. 

My question is would Mirri not prefer for her life to be more endurable, rather than less endurable? 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Well, if someone like Drogo appears in your door and does what Drogo does

There are lots of bad people that do lots of bad things, I don't equate them to the devil because that, to me, would be someone who only does bad. But you can see him how you wish. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

I did not say that Dany is the devil, she's married to him

I know that & I'm saying there is a difference in the two & not a small difference. Being married to someone bad, even the devil, doesn't make the other person bad or to blame for their spouses actions. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

How is not a fair comparation??

 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Mirri didn't have any husband or kids, but she had family, she had dear friends etc. 

It's not a fair comparison because you left out the part where anyone helped stop the abuse. In your scenario the person got robbed, raped, friends & family killed etc & then said would you really feel gratitude? Well no, in that scenario there is nothing to feel gratitude for. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

If someone who wasn't associated with the shitshow came forward, then ofc i would feel gratitude?? If there one of them?? Ofc not. That person did not lessen the damage and abuse done to my people, nor could undone what's been done to me.  Should i forgive and forget then?

Whether or not the person was associated with the group that abused you wouldn't make what they did any different. If someone not associated with the others stopped the abuse does that mean they helped you more than a person who was associated with them? No, you're still being helped period. 

If someone outside of the group stopped the abuse would you then tell them that they did nothing for you because you already suffered some abuse? Of course not. So what is the difference if it's someone associated with the people who abused you but did not participate in the abuse? 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Dany did any pillaging and raping, she just saw as necessary for her own plans… of vengeance and conquest

No she didn't, she had no more say in attacking the Lhazareen than Mirri did. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

She allegedly targetted a kid who was said to be Drogo with steroids, i suppose that after what happened to her, that perspective wouldn't be appealing. 

Who cares what the kid was allegedly going to do in the future? He had done nothing. He was completely & utterly innocent. The prophecy could have been complete bs, but now we will never know because Mirri exacted her revenge on an innocent, unborn, child. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Ofc she exacted revenge on the weaker Dany, she's not a fool, and how she has no right or justification to target Dany?? Dany is outright living from her misery?? She has a justification to target every one of them, just as any slave should have a justification to trget any of his masters

Apparently she was a fool because in targeting the "weaker" Dany she sealed her own fate. Had she kept her revenge to those who deserved it, maybe that wouldn't have happened. 

Dany did nothing but be kind to that woman & she repaid it with murder. 

Dany is living from her misery? I'm not sure what that means. 

She has justification to Target every person who harmed her, yes. Dany nor Rhaego harmed her, and Dany helped her. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

don't think that she's wrong, nor do i understand it as wrong. She made her choice, Dany made hers, i understand both, i don't see as unjustified or wrong either.

How can targeting an innocent, unborn, baby ever not be wrong? 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

She owes Little to Dany and  tbf she tries to heal Drogo and the latter is clever enough to do the opposite of what he was said to do

If she truly did try to heal Drogo then her deeds are even worse. She tried to heal the real culprit & targeted an unborn child. It doesn't matter what time or place or culture you are in, that is cowardice at it's worst. 

I'm not saying she "owes" Dany anything but she certainly didn't owe her betrayal & harm either. 

[frenin]

9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That wasn't the question. By the time Daenerys came upon her that was no longer a choice. You keep saying that what Dany did made no difference when it clearly did make a difference. 

My question is would Mirri not prefer for her life to be more endurable, rather than less endurable? 

It was the answer. Ofc that by the time Dany came upon her that was no longer a choice, that's why whatever Dany attempted to do to ease her pain, it wouldn't change how Mirri had come to see all of them.

 

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

There are lots of bad people that do lots of bad things, I don't equate them to the devil because that, to me, would be someone who only does bad. But you can see him how you wish. 

It was just a hyperbole, i didn't think it was necessary to explain, but when someone like Drogo does something like that, your views about him and hispeople might become a Little to extreme.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I know that & I'm saying there is a difference in the two & not a small difference. Being married to someone bad, even the devil, doesn't make the other person bad or to blame for their spouses actions. 

No, but profiting for the devil's work does make you accountable for a bit of it.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's not a fair comparison because you left out the part where anyone helped stop the abuse. In your scenario the person got robbed, raped, friends & family killed etc & then said would you really feel gratitude? Well no, in that scenario there is nothing to feel gratitude for. 

Whether or not the person was associated with the group that abused you wouldn't make what they did any different. If someone not associated with the others stopped the abuse does that mean they helped you more than a person who was associated with them? No, you're still being helped period. 

If someone outside of the group stopped the abuse would you then tell them that they did nothing for you because you already suffered some abuse? Of course not. So what is the difference if it's someone associated with the people who abused you but did not participate in the abuse? 

I did when i asked if you would feel gratitude for not being raped. I should've made it clearier.

But yes, people stopping the abuse does not take the fact that they have still perpetrated the abuse, they are going to highly profit from the abuse and well, all my suffering. Dany stopped her suffering, but her people were still butchered, her people would still be sold 

 

 

34 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No she didn't, she had no more say in attacking the Lhazareen than Mirri did. 

She knew someone was going to pay the Price for Robert's attempted,  she accepted it and she make Drogo understand that he ought to look west… with its foreseable consequences.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Who cares what the kid was allegedly going to do in the future? He had done nothing. He was completely & utterly innocent. The prophecy could have been complete bs, but now we will never know because Mirri exacted her revenge on an innocent, unborn, child. 

Well, Mirri did. After seen what Drogo did,  why would she gamble?? She killed an innocent kid, more likely already dead again, but for all we know she saved an entire race of being wiped out. The prophecy might be complete bs or it could be complete true. It's absolutely zealotry, morally horrible and unforgivable, but it's obvious why Mirri wouldn't take any chances.

 

 

43 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Apparently she was a fool because in targeting the "weaker" Dany she sealed her own fate. Had she kept her revenge to those who deserved it, maybe that wouldn't have happened. 

Dany did nothing but be kind to that woman & she repaid it with murder. 

Dany is living from her misery? I'm not sure what that means. 

She has justification to Target every person who harmed her, yes. Dany nor Rhaego harmed her, and Dany helped her. 

It's not that she wasn't getting killed anyway after Drogo's death...

 

Dany did nothing to her but to be kind to that woman, she was part of the group that brought only doom to her.

Dany, and the khalassar for that matter, get money, slaves and etc  from the lhazareen. Dany, as Drogo's wife, is directly living off people's misery. 

 

 

52 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If she truly did try to heal Drogo then her deeds are even worse. She tried to heal the real culprit & targeted an unborn child. It doesn't matter what time or place or culture you are in, that is cowardice at it's worst. 

I'm not saying she "owes" Dany anything but she certainly didn't owe her betrayal & harm either. 

Don't think she targetted Rhaego either, again, they all did the opposite of what she said. Yes, coward and everything but perfectly reasonable.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

was the answer. Ofc that by the time Dany came upon her that was no longer a choice, that's why whatever Dany attempted to do to ease her pain, it wouldn't change how Mirri had come to see all of them.

It might not change how she viewed any of the rest of them but why wouldn't it change the way she viewed Dany? Also it eased her pain, as you said. It lessened her suffering. Whether or not Mirri appreciates that doesn't take from the fact that she benefitted from Dany's intervention. 

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

No, but profiting for the devil's work does make you accountable for a bit of it

In normal circumstances I would agree but in this circumstance Daenerys could not say or do one thing to make the Dothraki stop raping & pillaging. If not the Lhazareen, another village. If not for funds for Westeros then just because that's what they do. Daenerys actions did very little to change anything. 

9 minutes ago, frenin said:

did when i asked if you would feel gratitude for not being raped. I should've made it clearier

Well, yeah you should feel gratitude for someone stopping your being raped. 

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

But yes, people stopping the abuse does not take the fact that they have still perpetrated the abuse

Dany didn't perpetrate any of the abuse. 

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

Dany stopped her suffering, but her people were still butchered, her people would still be sold

Yes & that's horrible. But it could have been much more horrible. Dany stopped it from being so. 

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

She knew someone was going to pay the Price for Robert's attempted

Indeed. Robert was the person she hoped would pay for the attempted assassination. 

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

she accepted it and she make Drogo understand that he ought to look west… with its foreseable consequences

She couldn't make Drogo see that he ought look West. She tried & tried & he refused her. It was Robert's actions that made Drogo think he needed to go West. 

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

Well, Mirri did. After seen what Drogo did,  why would she gamble?? She killed an innocent kid, more likely already dead again, but for all we know she saved an entire race of being wiped out. The prophecy might be complete bs or it could be complete true. It's absolutely zealotry, morally horrible and unforgivable, but it's obvious why Mirri wouldn't take any chances.

I understand why she did it, I'm just saying it's wrong & not justifiable. She may have saved a bunch of people, or she may have targeted a baby for no reason. He might have been dead already but she takes credit for it so I think it's fair to blame her for it. 

That's all I'm saying is that it is morally horrible & unforgivable. Regardless of Mirri's reasons. 

16 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's not that she wasn't getting killed anyway after Drogo's death

Well she wasn't. For all the khas talk of killing MMD for what she did to Drogo they left & left her unharmed. She was at Dany's mercy at that point. 

16 minutes ago, frenin said:

Dany did nothing to her but to be kind to that woman, she was part of the group that brought only doom to her

The individual is not the group. Dany did not participate in any abuse on any of her people & in fact stopped many rapes. 

18 minutes ago, frenin said:

Dany, and the khalassar for that matter, get money, slaves and etc  from the lhazareen. Dany, as Drogo's wife, is directly living off people's misery

She is directly living off of Drogo who is living off of these peoples misery but Dany's individual situation was no better or worse for the attack on the Lhazareen. 

18 minutes ago, frenin said:

Don't think she targetted Rhaego either, again, they all did the opposite of what she said. Yes, coward and everything but perfectly reasonable

To be fair I don't know that she did anything to Rhaego or Drogo but she accepted responsibility for it. I don't think it is perfectly reasonable. I think it's perfectly unreasonable to try to save the Khal (if, per her own words she did) and then be angry & resentful toward Daenerys. It would be much more reasonable to either keep quiet & not try to heal Drogo or to purposefully harm him. He is the leader of these people, he commanded them to rape & pillage her town, he made the decision to go to Westeros. Dany did none of those things nor did Rhaego. 

[frenin]

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It might not change how she viewed any of the rest of them but why wouldn't it change the way she viewed Dany? Also it eased her pain, as you said. It lessened her suffering. Whether or not Mirri appreciates that doesn't take from the fact that she benefitted from Dany's intervention. 

Because Dany was part of the Dothraki, ie part of her doom. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

In normal circumstances I would agree but in this circumstance Daenerys could not say or do one thing to make the Dothraki stop raping & pillaging. If not the Lhazareen, another village. If not for funds for Westeros then just because that's what they do. Daenerys actions did very little to change anything. 

If Drogo had targetted the lhazareen just for funsies, I'd agree with you. If Drogo just felt like raping some andal women, i'd agree with you. But in this case, Drogo's actions are a direct consequence of him being goaded by Dany into a war, war that Dany knew that would need funding. In this circumstances, Drogo raids the lhazareen because of Dany's war.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, yeah you should feel gratitude for someone stopping your being raped. 

If that someone has also brought doom and genocide for you and your kin?? 

 

 

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Dany didn't perpetrate any of the abuse. 

In the eyes of Mirri she did, you don't have to swing the sword or give the word to abuse.

 

 

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes & that's horrible. But it could have been much more horrible. Dany stopped it from being so. 

Again, that does not change the original sin.

 

 

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Indeed. Robert was the person she hoped would pay for the attempted assassination. 

And if she just sailed to Westeros, went to to King's landing, then to the Red Keep and shouted Robert to come out and die. Then ofc, she would be paying Robert tit for tat. But that wasn't what she wanted, she wanted a full invasion and ofc that has a price.

 

 

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She couldn't make Drogo see that he ought look West. She tried & tried & he refused her. It was Robert's actions that made Drogo think he needed to go West. 

And who made Drogo think he needed to go West?? Who said that Robert had awaken the dragons?? Who asked Jorah for help to make a her hubby  see he ought to see West?? Dany.

Indeed, Robert gave Dany the ammo she was looking for,  maybe would have looked West regardless but in this instance, Dany use Robert's actions to achieve something she was trying to gain for a long time.

 

 

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well she wasn't. For all the khas talk of killing MMD for what she did to Drogo they left & left her unharmed. She was at Dany's mercy at that point. 

That they left her to answer Dany does not mean she wasn't going to get killed afterwards anyway.

 

 

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The individual is not the group. Dany did not participate in any abuse on any of her people & in fact stopped many rapes. 

Sometimes you can't make that difference, in this case for example, in this case, it's incredibly easy to see the individual as the group.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She is directly living off of Drogo who is living off of these peoples misery but Dany's individual situation was no better or worse for the attack on the Lhazareen. 

If she's directly living off of Drogo and Drogo is living oof of these people's misery, she's living off of people's misery. And Dany got the precious slaves for her campaign, something Mirri could not know, but Dany would get jewels, servants etc. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SeanF]

37 minutes ago, frenin said:

Because Dany was part of the Dothraki, ie part of her doom. 

 

 

If Drogo had targetted the lhazareen just for funsies, I'd agree with you. If Drogo just felt like raping some andal women, i'd agree with you. But in this case, Drogo's actions are a direct consequence of him being goaded by Dany into a war, war that Dany knew that would need funding. In this circumstances, Drogo raids the lhazareen because of Dany's war.

 

 

 

If that someone has also brought doom and genocide for you and your kin?? 

 

 

In the eyes of Mirri she did, you don't have to swing the sword or give the word to abuse.

 

 

Again, that does not change the original sin.

 

 

And if she just sailed to Westeros, went to to King's landing, then to the Red Keep and shouted Robert to come out and die. Then ofc, she would be paying Robert tit for tat. But that wasn't what she wanted, she wanted a full invasion and ofc that has a price.

 

 

And who made Drogo think he needed to go West?? Who said that Robert had awaken the dragons?? Who asked Jorah for help to make a her hubby  see he ought to see West?? Dany.

Indeed, Robert gave Dany the ammo she was looking for,  maybe would have looked West regardless but in this instance, Dany use Robert's actions to achieve something she was trying to gain for a long time.

That they left her to answer Dany does not mean she wasn't going to get killed afterwards anyway.

Sometimes you can't make that difference, in this case for example, in this case, it's incredibly easy to see the individual as the group.

If she's directly living off of Drogo and Drogo is living oof of these people's misery, she's living off of people's misery. And Dany got the precious slaves for her campaign, something Mirri could not know, but Dany would get jewels, servants etc.

 

Khal Drogo made a deal with Viserys and Ilyrio, of thousands of riders in return for Daenerys.  Daenerys was no part of these negotiations, and had no choice but to let herself be handed over.  You greatly overstate her power and agency in this matter.  We don't know whether Drogo would have kept his end of the bargain, had Viserys not earned himself a death sentence, but it was not Daenerys who put the idea of a Western invasion into his head, although she obviously wanted war against Robert.

Additionally, Daenerys did not convert a peaceful tribe into a warlike one.  War is the trade of the Khalasar.  If it was not Mirri's village, it would have been another.  If Drogo had not attacked Khal Ogo's khalasar outside Mirri's village, then Khal Ogo's khalasar would have done exactly the same to Mirri and her people as Drogo's khalasar did.  The difference is that there would probably have been no one to speak up against the atrocities. Mirri benefitted from Daenerys' actions, in a way she would not otherwise have done. 

Essentially, you're condemning Daenerys for simply being alive, and trying to survive the best she can.

[frenin]

56 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Khal Drogo made a deal with Viserys and Ilyrio, of thousands of riders in return for Daenerys.  Daenerys was no part of these negotiations, and had no choice but to let herself be handed over.  You greatly overstate her power and agency in this matter.  We don't know whether Drogo would have kept his end of the bargain, had Viserys not earned himself a death sentence, but it was not Daenerys who put the idea of a Western invasion into his head, although she obviously wanted war against Robert.

If Drogo had decided to invade Westeros to honor his deal with Viserys, Dany would not have any responsability whatsoever, If Drogo had decided to raid the Lhazareen or Westeros just because, Dany would not have any responsability whatsoever, if Drogo had refused to refused Dany's urges to go to war against Robert and instead decided to target the Lhazareen, Dany would not have any responsability whatsoever. But that wasn't what happened, Drogo only targets the Lhazareen because he needs money to wage a war against Robert after Dany successfully goads him to pursue that path, Dany has her share of responsability there. 

 

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Additionally, Daenerys did not convert a peaceful tribe into a warlike one.  War is the trade of the Khalasar.  If it was not Mirri's village, it would have been another.  If Drogo had not attacked Khal Ogo's khalasar outside Mirri's village, then Khal Ogo's khalasar would have done exactly the same to Mirri and her people as Drogo's khalasar did.  The difference is that there would probably have been no one to speak up against the atrocities. Mirri benefitted from Daenerys' actions, in a way she would not otherwise have done. 

Essentially, you're condemning Daenerys for simply being alive, and trying to survive the best she can.

The "If not me another would do, so better be me" argument. It was Drogo and so Drogo and his people are the targets of that rage, Mirri benefited from Dany's actions and she still lost everything and was reduced to nothing.

It's false that i'm condemning for simply being alive and trying to survive the best she can, that does not change one bit that she's living off of the khalasar raids and that someone subjugated by them would not care much about her story,.

[SeanF]

51 minutes ago, frenin said:

If Drogo had decided to invade Westeros to honor his deal with Viserys, Dany would not have any responsability whatsoever, If Drogo had decided to raid the Lhazareen or Westeros just because, Dany would not have any responsability whatsoever, if Drogo had refused to refused Dany's urges to go to war against Robert and instead decided to target the Lhazareen, Dany would not have any responsability whatsoever. But that wasn't what happened, Drogo only targets the Lhazareen because he needs money to wage a war against Robert after Dany successfully goads him to pursue that path, Dany has her share of responsability there. 

 

The "If not me another would do, so better be me" argument. It was Drogo and so Drogo and his people are the targets of that rage, Mirri benefited from Dany's actions and she still lost everything and was reduced to nothing.

It's false that i'm condemning for simply being alive and trying to survive the best she can, that does not change one bit that she's living off of the khalasar raids and that someone subjugated by them would not care much about her story,.

No.  Daenerys made things a lot better for Mirri than would otherwise have been the case.  I'm not expecting Mirri to understand or appreciate this, or see her as anything other than the Enemy, but it remains a fact.

Yes, Daenerys wanted Drogo to fight Robert.  The trigger however, was Robert's botched assassination attempt.  If you're looking for people other than Khal Drogo to blame for what went down at the village, Robert and his Small Council must feature highly.  Robert would have known as well as anyone - when you aim for the Khaleesi, you'd better not miss.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Because Dany was part of the Dothraki, ie part of her doom.

What choice did Dany have but to be a part of the Dothraki? 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

f Drogo had targetted the lhazareen just for funsies, I'd agree with you. If Drogo just felt like raping some andal women, i'd agree with you. But in this case, Drogo's actions are a direct consequence of him being goaded by Dany into a war, war that Dany knew that would need funding. In this circumstances, Drogo raids the lhazareen because of Dany's war.

But it isn't a direct consequence of being goaded by Daenerys. He refused Daenerys repeatedly. It was a direct consequence of Robert's actions that led Drogo to attack the Lharzareen & much like she could not convince him to go West, she wouldn't have been able to convince him not to (had she wanted to) either. Drogo raided the Lhazareen for funds to pay Robert back in kind for the assassination attempt. He could care less about the IT, he told her that many times. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

If that someone has also brought doom and genocide for you and your kin?? 

The good or bad don't wash each other out. We, the readers, know Daenerys had little to no say in all of this. Whether Mirri knows that or not (being familiar with the Dothraki she would probably know a woman in the khalasar holds no power) she does know Dany stopped her being abused. To say it doesn't matter because of all the rest that already happened is to say that Mirri had no feeling, one way or the other, if they continued raping her & abusing her or not. Any person in the world would prefer the raping & abuse to stop, anyone. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Again, that does not change the original sin.

The original sin wasn't Dany's & I'm not saying it changed the original sin. It changed what was happening to her presently & in the future. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

And if she just sailed to Westeros, went to to King's landing, then to the Red Keep and shouted Robert to come out and die. Then ofc, she would be paying Robert tit for tat. But that wasn't what she wanted, she wanted a full invasion and ofc that has a price.

She didn't do anything except follow along. It was Drogo's decision to raise funds in this manner, Drogos decision to invade Kings Landing, Drogos decision to make Robert pay for the attempt on Dany & Rhaegos life. It doesn't matter what she wants, her wants don't make her good or bad, it's her actions & her actions show she had empathy & sympathy for these people & lessened their suffering as much as she could.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

And who made Drogo think he needed to go West??

Robert.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Who said that Robert had awaken the dragons??

I don't recall that being said but that has little to do with anything. Saying someone "awakened the dragons" is not bad or good, moral or amoral, legal or illegal. It's just a statement - one with little backing if it was said, as she had no real dragons & was just a little girl enslaved to the Dothraki.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Who asked Jorah for help to make a her hubby  see he ought to see West?? Dany.

Yep she did do that but so what? It was still Roberts actions that even allowed Jorah the opportunity to speak to Drogo & even then all he said was that this was the first attempt but not the last. That had little to do with things anyway I would imagine. It's highly unlikely a horselord warrior like Khal Drogo would allow an attempt on his Khaleesi & unborn childs life to go unanswered whether or not there would be another attempt.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

That they left her to answer Dany does not mean she wasn't going to get killed afterwards anyway.

It certainly means they weren't going to kill her, because they didn't. Had she not taken responsibility for Drogo & Rhaego in the manner she did (maliciously) she probably wouldn't have been killed by Dany either. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Sometimes you can't make that difference, in this case for example, in this case, it's incredibly easy to see the individual as the group.

How so? What differs this group vs individuals from any other group vs individuals? Mirri is quite capable of noticing the difference in behavior between Dany & the warriors. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

If she's directly living off of Drogo and Drogo is living oof of these people's misery, she's living off of people's misery. And Dany got the precious slaves for her campaign, something Mirri could not know, but Dany would get jewels, servants etc. 

Dany isn't living off of Drogo by choice though. She had no choice. She was forced to either marry him or commit suicide - no true choice at all. 

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

If Drogo had decided to invade Westeros to honor his deal with Viserys, Dany would not have any responsability whatsoever, If Drogo had decided to raid the Lhazareen or Westeros just because, Dany would not have any responsability whatsoever, if Drogo had refused to refused Dany's urges to go to war against Robert and instead decided to target the Lhazareen, Dany would not have any responsability whatsoever. But that wasn't what happened, Drogo only targets the Lhazareen because he needs money to wage a war against Robert after Dany successfully goads him to pursue that path, Dany has her share of responsability there. 

Drogo didn't decide to invade Westeros to honor his deal with Viserys but that's where the whole thing began. Viserys was promised a horde of Dothraki screamers to invade Westeros with in exchange for Daenerys' hand in marriage. A choice Dany had absolutely no say in & didn't want. 

This is precisely what happened! Drogo did refuse repeatedly Dany's urges to go to war & it was not her urges that changed his mind in the end. The idea wasn't first suggested by Dany - it was suggested by Viserys. The decision was not made in whole or part by Dany's wants or wishes. 

Drogo decides to raid the Lhazareen because he needs funds to invade Westeros to answer to the attempt on Dany & Rhaegos life. So to recap: The idea was planted by Viserys, Danys urgings & wishes were ignored, Robert gave Drogo a reason to wage war on him, Dany went along with people that she was sold to & enslaved by, she still found the courage to speak out against some of the atrocities they were committing. How in the world can this be her responsibility? 

She absolutely does not successfully goad him into this path. Re-read those passages. He is 100% dead set against it even after all Danys urging. He says no. 

38 minutes ago, frenin said:

The "If not me another would do, so better be me" argument. It was Drogo and so Drogo and his people are the targets of that rage, Mirri benefited from Dany's actions and she still lost everything and was reduced to nothing.

The arugment is not "if not me another would do, so better me" Even if we operate under the assumption that Danys urging & wishes did help to convince Drogo to go to war with Westeros:

The Lhazareen were already being attacked by another Khalasar & would still suffer the same fate they suffered without Drogos Khalsar showing up. 

This is the Dothraki way of life so if Drogo did not attack the Lhazareen, he would have attacked another village. 

The point is not that "if not me than another would" it's that Danys wishes, urgings, wants etc changed things very little & not at all for the worse. Had Drogo not decided to attack the Lhazareen, the Lhazareen were still being raided & pillaged so nothing would change for the better for them there. What would be different is that there would be no Daenerys to stop any of the rapes - so taking her out of the equation there changes things for the worse. 

If Drogo did not attack the Lhazareen he would have attacked another village - so taking Daenerys out of the equation here ensures that more people get raided & pillaged than what would have originally. 

Daenerys changed this situation for the better in every way she could.

44 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's false that i'm condemning for simply being alive and trying to survive the best she can, that does not change one bit that she's living off of the khalasar raids and that someone subjugated by them would not care much about her story,.

It isn't false because what choice did she have but to life off of the khalasar raids? What could she have done to make that different? What other real option did she have available to her? 

Mirri may not see that, although I think she should, but we the readers certainly know Dany has no choice but to be in the position she is in, has no way out of it, & did what she did to survive the best she can. 

[frenin]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

No.  Daenerys made things a lot better for Mirri than would otherwise have been the case.  I'm not expecting Mirri to understand or appreciate this, or see her as anything other than the Enemy, but it remains a fact.

And Dany's the reason, even if Mirri does not know that, that the Lhazareen were targetted, that also it's a fact.  And yes, it's likely that Mirri neither understood nor appreciated it.

 

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

 Yes, Daenerys wanted Drogo to fight Robert.  The trigger however, was Robert's botched assassination attempt.  If you're looking for people other than Khal Drogo to blame for what went down at the village, Robert and his Small Council must feature highly.

And Dany, Dany was the one using the attempt to convince Drogo to march against Robert.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What choice did Dany have but to be a part of the Dothraki? 

None at all.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But it isn't a direct consequence of being goaded by Daenerys. He refused Daenerys repeatedly. It was a direct consequence of Robert's actions that led Drogo to attack the Lharzareen & much like she could not convince him to go West, she wouldn't have been able to convince him not to (had she wanted to) either. Drogo raided the Lhazareen for funds to pay Robert back in kind for the assassination attempt. He could care less about the IT, he told her that many times. 

But that isn't true. He agreed to sit his son on his grandfather's throne. Which was Dany's and Dany's only idea. Drogo did not decided to pay Robert in kind many times, he did because he was convinced to do so...

 

The knight came at once. He wore horsehair leggings and painted vest, like a rider. Coarse black hair covered his thick chest and muscular arms. "My princess. How may I serve you?"
"You must talk to my lord husband," Dany said. "Drogo says the stallion who mounts the world will have all the lands of the earth to rule, and no need to cross the poison water. He talks of leading his khalasar east after Rhaego is born, to plunder the lands around the Jade Sea."
The knight looked thoughtful. "The khal has never seen the Seven Kingdoms," he said. "They are nothing to him. If he thinks of them at all, no doubt he thinks of islands, a few small cities clinging to rocks in the manner of Lorath or Lys, surrounded by stormy seas. The riches of the east must seem a more tempting prospect."
"But he must ride west," Dany said, despairing. "Please, help me make him understand."

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The good or bad don't wash each other out. We, the readers, know Daenerys had little to no say in all of this. Whether Mirri knows that or not (being familiar with the Dothraki she would probably know a woman in the khalasar holds no power) she does know Dany stopped her being abused. To say it doesn't matter because of all the rest that already happened is to say that Mirri had no feeling, one way or the other, if they continued raping her & abusing her or not. Any person in the world would prefer the raping & abuse to stop, anyone. 

No it wouldn't. Mirri would know that the Dothraki women hold no power, but she'd know that they still profit from their suffering, now would she rather not been raped and abused?? Sure, would that make her turn the other eye to the rest?? No, it wouldn't.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The original sin wasn't Dany's & I'm not saying it changed the original sin. It changed what was happening to her presently & in the future. 

No, It was Drogo's khalasar's. And Dany is part of that. Since it changed the original sin, how could she forget and forgive the original sin?? 

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She didn't do anything except follow along. It was Drogo's decision to raise funds in this manner, Drogos decision to invade Kings Landing, Drogos decision to make Robert pay for the attempt on Dany & Rhaegos life. It doesn't matter what she wants, her wants don't make her good or bad, it's her actions & her actions show she had empathy & sympathy for these people & lessened their suffering as much as she could.

And she's responsible for that, at any rate, any, i say that Dany shares even a similar part of the guilt, but Dany knew what she wanted and she was ready whatever means at her disposal to achieve what she wanted. It does matter what she wants when she's influencing those who make the decisions. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Robert.

Robert was the means to Dany's endgame.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yep she did do that but so what? It was still Roberts actions that even allowed Jorah the opportunity to speak to Drogo & even then all he said was that this was the first attempt but not the last. That had little to do with things anyway I would imagine. It's highly unlikely a horselord warrior like Khal Drogo would allow an attempt on his Khaleesi & unborn childs life to go unanswered whether or not there would be another attempt.

Well, so  Dany used Robert's actions to achieve her purpose of invading Westeros. We don't know how would go had he not spoken, we know that his words reached the mark however.  If not, Dany should not have said nothing, since there would no need, just spit the facts at Drogo. Dany knew or believed, or feared, that simply facts might not sway Drogo.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It certainly means they weren't going to kill her, because they didn't. Had she not taken responsibility for Drogo & Rhaego in the manner she did (maliciously) she probably wouldn't have been killed by Dany either. 

I don't know how you can say it, they were talking about killing her a long time, she was told that Drogo's fate would be hers, why would she think they are bluffing??

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

How so? What differs this group vs individuals from any other group vs individuals? Mirri is quite capable of noticing the difference in behavior between Dany & the warriors. 

The perspective of the victim... in which she makes no difference whatsoever between them.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Dany isn't living off of Drogo by choice though. She had no choice. She was forced to either marry him or commit suicide - no true choice at all. 

And what does mean to Mirri?? If you asked her, she'd likely tell you that Dany should've killed herself, at the end of the day that was Mirri did.

Ofc Dany is fucked, that does not change that as fucked as she is, she's living from people's misery and funding her conquest's campaign from people's misery.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The arugment is not "if not me another would do, so better me" Even if we operate under the assumption that Danys urging & wishes did help to convince Drogo to go to war with Westeros:

The Lhazareen were already being attacked by another Khalasar & would still suffer the same fate they suffered without Drogos Khalsar showing up. 

This is the Dothraki way of life so if Drogo did not attack the Lhazareen, he would have attacked another village. 

The point is not that "if not me than another would" it's that Danys wishes, urgings, wants etc changed things very little & not at all for the worse. Had Drogo not decided to attack the Lhazareen, the Lhazareen were still being raided & pillaged so nothing would change for the better for them there. What would be different is that there would be no Daenerys to stop any of the rapes - so taking her out of the equation there changes things for the worse. 

If Drogo did not attack the Lhazareen he would have attacked another village - so taking Daenerys out of the equation here ensures that more people get raided & pillaged than what would have originally. 

Daenerys changed this situation for the better in every way she could.

 

So yes, if not me another would. 

I'm not denying that the lhazareen were about to being screwed anyway, but the ones who finally did it was Drogo and with the purpose of funding his future campaign. And Mirri is thinks, and knows, that her live was already a living hell.

 

“I spoke for you,” she said, anguished. “I saved you.” “Saved me?” The Lhazareen woman spat. “Three riders had taken me, not as a man takes a woman but from behind, as a dog takes a bitch. The fourth was in me when you rode past. How then did you save me? I saw my god’s house burn, where I had healed good men beyond counting. My home they burned as well, and in the street I saw piles of heads. I saw the head of a baker who made my bread. I saw the head of a boy I had saved from deadeye fever, only three moons past. I heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips. Tell me again what you saved.” “Your life.” Mirri Maz Duur laughed cruelly. “Look to your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone.”

 

I'm not saying Dany's responsible for every raid, but for very raid whose purpose is get slaves for the funding.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It isn't false because what choice did she have but to life off of the khalasar raids? What could she have done to make that different? What other real option did she have available to her? 

Mirri may not see that, although I think she should, but we the readers certainly know Dany has no choice but to be in the position she is in, has no way out of it, & did what she did to survive the best she can. 

It's false, i'm not holding that against her, i'm explaining  why one of his husband's victims may hold that against her. 

 

 

 

 

[SeanF]

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

And Dany's the reason, even if Mirri does not know that, that the Lhazareen were targetted, that also it's a fact.  And yes, it's likely that Mirri neither understood nor appreciated it.

 

And Dany, Dany was the one using the attempt to convince Drogo to march against Robert.

 

 

None at all.

 

 

But that isn't true. He agreed to sit his son on his grandfather's throne. Which was Dany's and Dany's only idea. Drogo did not decided to pay Robert in kind many times, he did because he was convinced to do so...

 

The knight came at once. He wore horsehair leggings and painted vest, like a rider. Coarse black hair covered his thick chest and muscular arms. "My princess. How may I serve you?"
"You must talk to my lord husband," Dany said. "Drogo says the stallion who mounts the world will have all the lands of the earth to rule, and no need to cross the poison water. He talks of leading his khalasar east after Rhaego is born, to plunder the lands around the Jade Sea."
The knight looked thoughtful. "The khal has never seen the Seven Kingdoms," he said. "They are nothing to him. If he thinks of them at all, no doubt he thinks of islands, a few small cities clinging to rocks in the manner of Lorath or Lys, surrounded by stormy seas. The riches of the east must seem a more tempting prospect."
"But he must ride west," Dany said, despairing. "Please, help me make him understand."

 

No it wouldn't. Mirri would know that the Dothraki women hold no power, but she'd know that they still profit from their suffering, now would she rather not been raped and abused?? Sure, would that make her turn the other eye to the rest?? No, it wouldn't.

 

 

No, It was Drogo's khalasar's. And Dany is part of that. Since it changed the original sin, how could she forget and forgive the original sin?? 

 

 

And she's responsible for that, at any rate, any, i say that Dany shares even a similar part of the guilt, but Dany knew what she wanted and she was ready whatever means at her disposal to achieve what she wanted. It does matter what she wants when she's influencing those who make the decisions. 

 

 

Robert was the means to Dany's endgame.

 

 

Well, so  Dany used Robert's actions to achieve her purpose of invading Westeros. We don't know how would go had he not spoken, we know that his words reached the mark however.  If not, Dany should not have said nothing, since there would no need, just spit the facts at Drogo. Dany knew or believed, or feared, that simply facts might not sway Drogo.

 

 

I don't know how you can say it, they were talking about killing her a long time, she was told that Drogo's fate would be hers, why would she think they are bluffing??

 

 

The perspective of the victim... in which she makes no difference whatsoever between them.

 

 

And what does mean to Mirri?? If you asked her, she'd likely tell you that Dany should've killed herself, at the end of the day that was Mirri did.

Ofc Dany is fucked, that does not change that as fucked as she is, she's living from people's misery and funding her conquest's campaign from people's misery.

 

 

 

 

So yes, if not me another would. 

I'm not denying that the lhazareen were about to being screwed anyway, but the ones who finally did it was Drogo and with the purpose of funding his future campaign. And Mirri is thinks, and knows, that her live was already a living hell.

 

“I spoke for you,” she said, anguished. “I saved you.” “Saved me?” The Lhazareen woman spat. “Three riders had taken me, not as a man takes a woman but from behind, as a dog takes a bitch. The fourth was in me when you rode past. How then did you save me? I saw my god’s house burn, where I had healed good men beyond counting. My home they burned as well, and in the street I saw piles of heads. I saw the head of a baker who made my bread. I saw the head of a boy I had saved from deadeye fever, only three moons past. I heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips. Tell me again what you saved.” “Your life.” Mirri Maz Duur laughed cruelly. “Look to your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone.”

 

I'm not saying Dany's responsible for every raid, but for very raid whose purpose is get slaves for the funding.

 

 

It's false, i'm not holding that against her, i'm explain why of his husband's victims may hold that against her. 

 

 

 

 

Would it have been better if someone other than the Lhazareen had been targeted?  Because, whatever Dany said, or did, or did not say or do, someone would be targeted?  Dany's responsible for this raid to the extent, and only to the extent, that she was a part of the planning, logistics, and execution of the raid - that is very little.

[frenin]

42 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Would it have been better if someone other than the Lhazareen had been targeted?  Because, whatever Dany said, or did, or did not say or do, someone would be targeted?  Dany's responsible for this raid to the extent, and only to the extent, that she was a part of the planning, logistics, and execution of the raid - that is very little.

As long as it was to get funds  for Westeros i don't know how it would lessen Dany's share of guilt. I never said that Dany was fully responsible  of it or she had a great deal of responsability tho.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

None at all.

Then how can she be blamed for what they do or for living off of the Dothraki, regardless of how they make their living? 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

But that isn't true. He agreed to sit his son on his grandfather's throne. Which was Dany's and Dany's only idea. Drogo did not decided to pay Robert in kind many times, he did because he was convinced to do so...

It's absolutely true. All the quote you provided shows is that Dany requested Jorah's help in making Drogo head West, which I've already stated. Something to note is that Jorah never even agreed to do this. My claims were 

1. He refused Daenerys repeatedly:

The khal's mouth twisted in a frown beneath the droop of his long mustachio. "The stallion who mounts the world has no need of iron chairs" 

Note, this is where the conversation picks up but it is clearly not the beginning of the conversation. Daenerys has, at least once, previous to this response urged Drogo to take the Iron Throne & he refuses. He does not care for iron chairs & thinks the stallion who mounts the world has no need of them either. 

"It was prophesied that the stallion will ride to the ends of the earth," she said. 

"The earth ends at the black salt sea," Drogo answered at once. "No horse can cross the poison water." 

"In the Free Cities, there are ships by the thousand," Dany told him, as she had told him before. "Wooden horses with a hundred legs, that will fly across the sea on wings full of wind" 

Khal Drogo did not want to hear it. "We will speak no more of wooden horses and iron chairs."  He dropped the cloth and began to dress. "This day I will go to the grass and hunt, woman wife," he announced as he shrugged into a painted vest and buckled on a wide belt with heavy medallions of silver, gold, and bronze.

"Yes, my sun-and-stars," Dany said. 

She has asked repeatedly & been refused repeatedly. He does not want to hear it, does not want to talk about it, has no need of it. 

2. It was a direct consequence of Robert's actions that led Drogo to attack the Lharzareen:

Nothing more is said between Drogo & Daenerys on the subject from that point until after the wineseller tries to poision Daenerys. 

Merchant Captain Byan Votyris says: "Take this one away to await the pleasure of the khal," he commanded, gesturing at the man on the ground. Two guards hauled the wineseller to his feet. "His goods I gift to you as well, Princess," the merchant captain went on. "Small token of regret, that one of mine would do this thing." 

When Drogo returned from his hunt Dany told him what happened in the market. Jorah tells him this poisoner was the first but not the last. 

Drogo was silent for a time. Finally he said, "This seller of poisons ran from the moon of my life. Better he should run after her. So he will. Jhogo, Jorah the Andal, to each of you I say, choose any horse you wish from my herds, and it is yours. Any horse save my red & the silver that was my bride gift to the moon of my life. I make this gift to you for what you did. And to Rhaego son of Drogo, the stallion who will mount the world, to him I also pledge a gift. To him I will give this iron chair his mother's father sat in. I will give him Seven Kingdoms. I, Drogo, khal, will do this thing." 

So prior to the wineseller trying to poision Dany the answer was no & no & no. After words, upon doling out punishment to the wineseller & gifts to Jhogo & Jorah for saving Dany & Rhaego from the wineseller, Drogo pledges another gift to his son: The Seven Kingdoms. This decision was made as a direct reaction to the attempt on Dany & Rhaegos life. There is just no way around that. He was convinced, convinced by the attempt on their lives. There is no other conversation or urging in between his refusal & nonchalance about the IT & his declaration of war on it except that of the wineseller & the attempt on their lives. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

No it wouldn't. Mirri would know that the Dothraki women hold no power, but she'd know that they still profit from their suffering, now would she rather not been raped and abused?? Sure, would that make her turn the other eye to the rest?? No, it wouldn't.

She seems to be aware of the Dothraki ways. If she would know the women of the khalasar would profit from the deeds of the khalasar then there is no reason to believe she wouldn't also know that the women hold no power. Both are matters of a womans place among the khalasar. 

I said nothing of turning a blind eye to the rest. I'm saying she would & should judge both actions accordingly. Because she already suffered does not mean a kindness wasn't done to her when that suffering was stopped. She can be angry & vengeful about the suffering & abuse & grateful for being saved from further abuse. She does not have to feel the same way about both things, nor should she. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

No, It was Drogo's khalasar's. And Dany is part of that. Since it changed the original sin, how could she forget and forgive the original sin?? 

 

Daenerys has no choice but to be a part of that khalasar. 

If after attacking the Lhazareen, the khalasar came upon & chose to rape & pillage another village, MMD would herself be present among that khalasar at that point - does she hold responsibility for this second attack? Would anyone in the other village be justified in exacting their revenge on Mirri? If not why? She is a part of that khalasar, she is with them, traveling with them, among them, just like Dany during the first attack. It matters not, according to you, that the difference in status would be clear between the warriors & Mirri herself, as clear as the difference in status was between Dany & the warriors. By this reasoning Mirri should hold blame & revenge could rightfully be enacted upon her. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

And she's responsible for that, at any rate, any, i say that Dany shares even a similar part of the guilt, but Dany knew what she wanted and she was ready whatever means at her disposal to achieve what she wanted. It does matter what she wants when she's influencing those who make the decisions. 

She isn't responsible for that. She isn't responsible for making decisions & she was unable to influence those who made the decisions. She followed along & had no other choice but to do so, whether she wished it or no. Thoughts & feelings are not punishable. They hold no water. Only actions can be punishable or rewarded. People don't get rewarded for thinking of doing a great deed, or for wanting to do a great deed, no matter how good their intentions they are not rewarded unless they actually do the great deed. The same goes for a bad one. You can think about doing something very bad, you can want to do something very bad, you can even be prepared to do something very bad mentally - you cannot be punished unless you actually do something very bad. This is a basic measure of judgement even in the most barbaric & strict societies because you cannot prove what a person thinks or feels. Only that person can tell you what they think or feel & they can lie with no way for anyone to ever prove it otherwise. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Well, so  Dany used Robert's actions to achieve her purpose of invading Westeros. We don't know how would go had he not spoken, we know that his words reached the mark however.  If not, Dany should not have said nothing, since there would no need, just spit the facts at Drogo. Dany knew or believed, or feared, that simply facts might not sway Drogo.

So, just so I understand this correctly you believe Mirri has/had every right & reason to want revenge, not only on Drogo but any person among that khalasar, including Dany, but Dany is wrong for wanting to invade Westeros & take back what has been stolen from her? Those people did as bad to her & her family as the khalasar did to Mirri & hers. But Dany should have just kept quiet about it? 

Regardless of what she wanted or didn't, regardless of her words, it was not her that convinced Drogo to invade Westeros. She is an upjumped slave among these people with no say or authority. There just isn't anyway I could ever blame someone in her position for  what Drogo chooses to do, even if it's "for" her. 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

don't know how you can say it, they were talking about killing her a long time, she was told that Drogo's fate would be hers, why would she think they are bluffing??

Because they were!! Did they kill her? Was her fate Drogos, like they promised? No, so they either were bluffing or after Drogo was a vegetable decided it wasn't all that important to them. I'm not saying she would think they are bluffing, at least not at first but after the fact, when she saw that she was free to roam around as she pleased, while Dany was unconscious & Drogo a vegetable, surely then she realized they were bluffing right? Because she wasn't killed. 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

The perspective of the victim... in which she makes no difference whatsoever between them.

Mirri appears to be of normal intelligence with no issues communicating or understanding. She is beyond capable of understanding the difference between the dothraki warriors who are raping & beating her & Dany who stopped that raping & beating. 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

And what does mean to Mirri?? If you asked her, she'd likely tell you that Dany should've killed herself, at the end of the day that was Mirri did.

When judging the right or wrong of something, what of the circumstances Mirri knew of, accepted, or felt about the circumstances means nothing. I wouldn't ask her, because she is not in a position to be non-biased. 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Ofc Dany is fucked, that does not change that as fucked as she is, she's living from people's misery and funding her conquest's campaign from people's misery

How does it not change it when she has no choice but to be doing what she is doing? 

 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

So yes, if not me another would. 

I'm not denying that the lhazareen were about to being screwed anyway, but the ones who finally did it was Drogo and with the purpose of funding his future campaign. And Mirri is thinks, and knows, that her live was already a living hell.

If the Lhazareen were screwed either way, Daeneryss words, feelings, thoughts, wants, played no part in changing the fate of the Lhazareen for the worse. She only changed their fate for the better. That is not something I think she should be condemned for. 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

It's false, i'm not holding that against her, i'm explaining  why one of his husband's victims may hold that against her. 

Well, you are arguing it in a manner that led me to believe you feel the same as Mirri, I'm not real interested in what Mirri's feelings & thoughts are on the matter, I can understand most of them. I'm curious to know your own, personal thoughts on the matter. 

[frenin]

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Then how can she be blamed for what they do or for living off of the Dothraki, regardless of how they make their living? 

Because she's still living off of that.

 

 

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's absolutely true. All the quote you provided shows is that Dany requested Jorah's help in making Drogo head West, which I've already stated. Something to note is that Jorah never even agreed to do this. My claims were 

1. He refused Daenerys repeatedly:

The khal's mouth twisted in a frown beneath the droop of his long mustachio. "The stallion who mounts the world has no need of iron chairs" 

Note, this is where the conversation picks up but it is clearly not the beginning of the conversation. Daenerys has, at least once, previous to this response urged Drogo to take the Iron Throne & he refuses. He does not care for iron chairs & thinks the stallion who mounts the world has no need of them either. 

"It was prophesied that the stallion will ride to the ends of the earth," she said. 

"The earth ends at the black salt sea," Drogo answered at once. "No horse can cross the poison water." 

"In the Free Cities, there are ships by the thousand," Dany told him, as she had told him before. "Wooden horses with a hundred legs, that will fly across the sea on wings full of wind" 

Khal Drogo did not want to hear it. "We will speak no more of wooden horses and iron chairs."  He dropped the cloth and began to dress. "This day I will go to the grass and hunt, woman wife," he announced as he shrugged into a painted vest and buckled on a wide belt with heavy medallions of silver, gold, and bronze.

"Yes, my sun-and-stars," Dany said. 

She has asked repeatedly & been refused repeatedly. He does not want to hear it, does not want to talk about it, has no need of it. 

2. It was a direct consequence of Robert's actions that led Drogo to attack the Lharzareen:

Nothing more is said between Drogo & Daenerys on the subject from that point until after the wineseller tries to poision Daenerys. 

Merchant Captain Byan Votyris says: "Take this one away to await the pleasure of the khal," he commanded, gesturing at the man on the ground. Two guards hauled the wineseller to his feet. "His goods I gift to you as well, Princess," the merchant captain went on. "Small token of regret, that one of mine would do this thing." 

When Drogo returned from his hunt Dany told him what happened in the market. Jorah tells him this poisoner was the first but not the last. 

Drogo was silent for a time. Finally he said, "This seller of poisons ran from the moon of my life. Better he should run after her. So he will. Jhogo, Jorah the Andal, to each of you I say, choose any horse you wish from my herds, and it is yours. Any horse save my red & the silver that was my bride gift to the moon of my life. I make this gift to you for what you did. And to Rhaego son of Drogo, the stallion who will mount the world, to him I also pledge a gift. To him I will give this iron chair his mother's father sat in. I will give him Seven Kingdoms. I, Drogo, khal, will do this thing." 

So prior to the wineseller trying to poision Dany the answer was no & no & no. After words, upon doling out punishment to the wineseller & gifts to Jhogo & Jorah for saving Dany & Rhaego from the wineseller, Drogo pledges another gift to his son: The Seven Kingdoms. This decision was made as a direct reaction to the attempt on Dany & Rhaegos life. There is just no way around that. He was convinced, convinced by the attempt on their lives. There is no other conversation or urging in between his refusal & nonchalance about the IT & his declaration of war on it except that of the wineseller & the attempt on their lives. 

It isn't true. 

Drogo was convinced by the attempt as much as by Jorah's words, if not there would be absolutely no need for Dany to ask Jorah that, she isn't sure of what Drogo might act and Jorah makes clear to Drogo that others would come to hunt Dany down.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She seems to be aware of the Dothraki ways. If she would know the women of the khalasar would profit from the deeds of the khalasar then there is no reason to believe she wouldn't also know that the women hold no power. Both are matters of a womans place among the khalasar. 

I said nothing of turning a blind eye to the rest. I'm saying she would & should judge both actions accordingly. Because she already suffered does not mean a kindness wasn't done to her when that suffering was stopped. She can be angry & vengeful about the suffering & abuse & grateful for being saved from further abuse. She does not have to feel the same way about both things, nor should she. 

That was before i re read the chapter. I should've done it earlier.

I think she very much knows about it, that Dany holds little to no power but she still sees that Dany is profiting for her suffering.

 

And i'm saying that Mirri could not care less about that, Mirri was broken and could not care less about being gang raped or not, as she says, once she had lost everything and reduced to nothing, every kindness to her was pointless, I can see where she's coming from.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Daenerys has no choice but to be a part of that khalasar. 

If after attacking the Lhazareen, the khalasar came upon & chose to rape & pillage another village, MMD would herself be present among that khalasar at that point - does she hold responsibility for this second attack? Would anyone in the other village be justified in exacting their revenge on Mirri? If not why? She is a part of that khalasar, she is with them, traveling with them, among them, just like Dany during the first attack. It matters not, according to you, that the difference in status would be clear between the warriors & Mirri herself, as clear as the difference in status was between Dany & the warriors. By this reasoning Mirri should hold blame & revenge could rightfully be enacted upon her. 

Dany is still Drogo's wife. 

Mirri is a slave, she profits from nothing,  how can they be comparable?? The very moment you're comparing a free person with a slave every argument is moot.

 

 

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She isn't responsible for that. She isn't responsible for making decisions & she was unable to influence those who made the decisions. She followed along & had no other choice but to do so, whether she wished it or no. Thoughts & feelings are not punishable. They hold no water. Only actions can be punishable or rewarded. People don't get rewarded for thinking of doing a great deed, or for wanting to do a great deed, no matter how good their intentions they are not rewarded unless they actually do the great deed. The same goes for a bad one. You can think about doing something very bad, you can want to do something very bad, you can even be prepared to do something very bad mentally - you cannot be punished unless you actually do something very bad. This is a basic measure of judgement even in the most barbaric & strict societies because you cannot prove what a person thinks or feels. Only that person can tell you what they think or feel & they can lie with no way for anyone to ever prove it otherwise. 

She is, if she had just thought about wanting the IT backor having the Usurper's head on a spike, that would be one thing, but her words helped to influence a decision and her words should be punishable.

 

 

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So, just so I understand this correctly you believe Mirri has/had every right & reason to want revenge, not only on Drogo but any person among that khalasar, including Dany, but Dany is wrong for wanting to invade Westeros & take back what has been stolen from her? Those people did as bad to her & her family as the khalasar did to Mirri & hers. But Dany should have just kept quiet about it? 

Regardless of what she wanted or didn't, regardless of her words, it was not her that convinced Drogo to invade Westeros. She is an upjumped slave among these people with no say or authority. There just isn't anyway I could ever blame someone in her position for  what Drogo chooses to do, even if it's "for" her. 

Nope, i believe that Mirri is more righteous than Dany, if Mirri were to have a son and said son 15 years later were to set the green sea afire for people dead 15 years ago, befero he was even born i'd say the exact same i say about Dany.

She is Drogo's wife, not an upjumped slave and she does at the end convince Drogo, I very much could blame someone who is in her position for what Drogo chooses if it's fot her and according to her wishes.

 

 

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Because they were!! Did they kill her? Was her fate Drogos, like they promised? No, so they either were bluffing or after Drogo was a vegetable decided it wasn't all that important to them. I'm not saying she would think they are bluffing, at least not at first but after the fact, when she saw that she was free to roam around as she pleased, while Dany was unconscious & Drogo a vegetable, surely then she realized they were bluffing right? Because she wasn't killed. 

Don't know why, she should think her hours were counted.

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Mirri appears to be of normal intelligence with no issues communicating or understanding. She is beyond capable of understanding the difference between the dothraki warriors who are raping & beating her & Dany who stopped that raping & beating. 

Except that as far as she was concerned, Dany did not stop shit, she gave a damn about Dany's intention. She was far from the turning point, perhaps the other were more grateful but not Mirri, she just saw Dany as part of a big invasor.  It's not like Dany was directly targetted anyway.

 

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

When judging the right or wrong of something, what of the circumstances Mirri knew of, accepted, or felt about the circumstances means nothing. I wouldn't ask her, because she is not in a position to be non-biased. 

Since we're talking about Mirri, i think that what she felt means a lot.

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

How does it not change it when she has no choice but to be doing what she is doing? 

 

Because she still profits from it, she does not have other choice but that makes no difference for her victim.

 

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If the Lhazareen were screwed either way, Daeneryss words, feelings, thoughts, wants, played no part in changing the fate of the Lhazareen for the worse. She only changed their fate for the better. That is not something I think she should be condemned for. 

21 hours ago, frenin said:

Dany's words, thought, feelings and wants, played a part in Drogo targetting the lhazareen for getting funding, Drogo's reason for raid them was not that he just felt like it and she should be condemned for that, a very very small degree ofc, but still guilty.

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, you are arguing it in a manner that led me to believe you feel the same as Mirri, I'm not real interested in what Mirri's feelings & thoughts are on the matter, I can understand most of them. I'm curious to know your own, personal thoughts on the matter. 

Dany wanted war, got the war she wanted. The lhazareen paid the price for it. None of that excuses Mirri since she didn't know or care about the reasons her people were targetted. I don't really believe that Dany should be hold accountable for every shitty action Drogo does but. Victims would not see that way, i can understand it and i can't really condemn them for it.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

 

Dany wanted war, got the war she wanted. The lhazareen paid the price for it. None of that excuses Mirri since she didn't know or care about the reasons her people were targetted. I don't really believe that Dany should be hold accountable for every shitty action Drogo does but. Victims would not see that way, i can understand it and i can't really condemn them for it.

I don't condemn Mirri for getting her revenge, but I don't condemn Daenerys for getting hers, either.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

Because she's still living off of that.

I think we are just going to keep going around in circles here but since now, after Mirri has been enslaved by them, she is living off of them too & thus should be condemned for it just like Dany. 

29 minutes ago, frenin said:

It isn't true. 

I've just shown you quotes that it is true. To claim it isn't with any backing you would have to cite the text showing it isn't true. 

29 minutes ago, frenin said:

Drogo was convinced by the attempt as much as by Jorah's words, if not there would be absolutely no need for Dany to ask Jorah that, she isn't sure of what Drogo might act and Jorah makes clear to Drogo that others would come to hunt Dany down.

Sure, Jorah's words helped. But what gave Jorah the opportunity to say those words? Those words would have meant nothing if the attempt on her life had not been made. Robert sending the assassin caused the Khal to have a reason to attack him. Before that, as I've shown via the quotes, there was none. 

30 minutes ago, frenin said:

That was before i re read the chapter. I should've done it earlier.

I think she very much knows about it, that Dany holds little to no power but she still sees that Dany is profiting for her suffering.

Dany is surviving because of Mirri & other's suffering, yes. But because she has no choice she cannot be held to blame for that. Mirri can see things however she wants, but as the reader we are privvy to more information & we know Dany's situation among the Dothraki. 

31 minutes ago, frenin said:

And i'm saying that Mirri could not care less about that, Mirri was broken and could not care less about being gang raped or not, as she says, once she had lost everything and reduced to nothing, every kindness to her was pointless, I can see where she's coming from.

 

Certainly that's what she says & I empathize with that feeling & Mirri may have even believed she could care less about being gang raped but had she been left to her fate, to be raped by however many more men, and continued to be abused, I will guarantee you she would see the difference. Again, if every kindness to her was pointless, Dany would have been better off to not stop the rape, not stop the abuse, & allow the riders to do as they wished with Mirri. Mirri may have felt she had lost everything & that further abuse meant nothing but I find that dubious at best because any person of normal intelligence understands that the more abuse you suffer the worse it is, it isn't as if once you have been raped it can't get any worse so might as well let everyone rape you. Being raped once is horrific, being raped 4 times is 4 times more horrific, 8 times would be even more horrific.

37 minutes ago, frenin said:

Dany is still Drogo's wife. 

and what choice was she given in that matter? None. So while she may be considered Drogo's wife, she is still a slave or at best a hostage there. 

39 minutes ago, frenin said:

Mirri is a slave, she profits from nothing,  how can they be comparable?? The very moment you're comparing a free person with a slave every argument is moot.

And the moment you are calling Daenerys a free person shows the lengths in which you are willing to go in this argument.

Did Dany have any choice but to be married to Drogo & join the khalasar? No. 

Did Dany have a choice about whether or not she had sex with Drogo? No. 

Was Dany allowed to stay or leave as she wished? No. 

In what universe is that a free person? 

Mirri profits in the same way Dany does, she has food & protection from the elements among the khalasar. So if Dany "profits" from them, so does Mirri. 

42 minutes ago, frenin said:

She is, if she had just thought about wanting the IT backor having the Usurper's head on a spike, that would be one thing, but her words helped to influence a decision and her words should be punishable.

LOL! "her words should be punishable" ?! I think that is going a little far. So if you express the want to take back something you believe has been stolen from you, you should be punished for that? 

Is this not the same, exact thing Mirri does? Daenerys expresses a wish & desire to take back the IT because she believes it has been stolen from her family. Mirri expresses a wish & desire & then goes further by carrying out her wish & desire to punish those who have stolen from her. If Dany is responsible for influencing Drogo, then Mirri is doubly responsible for acting on her wishes right? 

45 minutes ago, frenin said:

Nope, i believe that Mirri is more righteous than Dany, if Mirri were to have a son and said son 15 years later were to set the green sea afire for people dead 15 years ago, befero he was even born i'd say the exact same i say about Dany.

I'm sorry but I'm not totally understanding this sentence, so correct me if I'm wrong. 

I believe you are saying it's ok to kill a child because they may be a mass murderer in the future? The issue here is we can't see the future, we don't know what the child would have turned into & neither does Mirri. She is basing her opinion on a prophecy that has absolutely no evidence to be true & she knows that. She is using it as an excuse or justification to kill an unborn baby. 

48 minutes ago, frenin said:

She is Drogo's wife, not an upjumped slave and she does at the end convince Drogo, I very much could blame someone who is in her position for what Drogo chooses if it's fot her and according to her wishes.

She is an upjumped slave. Most women are, even in Westeros, let alone in a Dothraki khalasar. She is sold to a man & used repeatedly with no regard to whether she consents or not. She has no choice but to allow this to happen & is so broken by it that she actually considers suicide. 

Again, I've given you the quotes. She doesn't convince Drogo. 

50 minutes ago, frenin said:

Except that as far as she was concerned, Dany did not stop shit, she gave a damn about Dany's intention.

That's fine she can feel that way but we know & so does she that Dany did stop shit. Mirri is bitter & angry about what they have done to her village & I totally get that. But I do not believe for one second that she is incapable of understanding what Dany did for her & what she was saved from. She allowed her anger to cloud her judgement or she deliberately lied. She wanted someone to pay for what happened to her village & because Dany helped her she was in a vulnerable position to Mirri. Mirri used that to her advantage, simple as that. 

54 minutes ago, frenin said:

She was far from the turning point, perhaps the other were more grateful but not Mirri, she just saw Dany as part of a big invasor.  It's not like Dany was directly targetted anyway.

 Whether or not the others were grateful they didn't set out to kill Danys unborn child. Does that not show that Mirri's attitude & thought process toward the whole thing is not very normal? 

The bolded contradicts your own points. If Mirri had every reason (according to you) to target Dany & Khal Drogo but did neither - she only tried to help Drogo heal & didn't directly target Dany at all then the only person she truly targeted was the baby. This makes her evil & vile & cowardly. There just isn't anyway to say Mirri was on the side of righteousness is that. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Since we're talking about Mirri, i think that what she felt means a lot.

Sure what she is feeling means a lot irt why she did what she did, but her feelings don't weigh on the scales when judging if something is right or wrong, morally. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Because she still profits from it, she does not have other choice but that makes no difference for her victim.

It may not make any difference to her victim but that has no bearing on whether or not Dany is in the wrong for profiting from the people she is forced to live with. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Dany's words, thought, feelings and wants, played a part in Drogo targetting the lhazareen for getting funding,

Show me a quote that backs that. Show me a quote that shows Drogo's reason for targeting the Lhazareen for funding was not in direct response to Roberts attempt on Dany's life. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Drogo's reason for raid them was not that he just felt like it and she should be condemned for that, a very very small degree ofc, but still guilty

He raids plenty of people just because he feels like it but this particular raid was to fund an invasion on Westeros to answer for the attempt on Dany & his unborn childs life. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Dany wanted war, got the war she wanted.

Um.. no she didn't. Drogo agreed to invade Westeros & gift the IT to his son, but that never happened, Drogo died & that particular invasion of Westeros died with it. Dany will launch her own invasion, presumably, eventually, but to date she has not "got the war she wanted" 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

None of that excuses Mirri since she didn't know or care about the reasons her people were targetted. I don't really believe that Dany should be hold accountable for every shitty action Drogo does but. Victims would not see that way, i can understand it and i can't really condemn them for it.

I'm not condemning Mirri for her thoughts or feelings or what she cared or didn't care about. I'm condemning her for some of her actions. 

[frenin]

22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 I think we are just going to keep going around in circles here but since now, after Mirri has been enslaved by them, she is living off of them too & thus should be condemned for it just like Dany. 

Mirri is a slave, not Drogo's wife, if Mirri was to be made Drogo's wife after this, the sure she should.

 

22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I've just shown you quotes that it is true. To claim it isn't with any backing you would have to cite the text showing it isn't true. 

But you didn't. You are completely dismissing what influence Jorah's and Dany's words, she was the one telling the story and the most determined  to change Drogo's mindset.

Sure, Robert's attempts forced Drogo to face the situation  but to say that Jorah's and Dany's words did not influence him...

 

22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Dany is surviving because of Mirri & other's suffering, yes. But because she has no choice she cannot be held to blame for that. Mirri can see things however she wants, but as the reader we are privvy to more information & we know Dany's situation among the Dothraki. 

Weren't we talking about how Mirri saw, or should say things??

 

 

 

22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Certainly that's what she says & I empathize with that feeling & Mirri may have even believed she could care less about being gang raped but had she been left to her fate, to be raped by however many more men, and continued to be abused, I will guarantee you she would see the difference. Again, if every kindness to her was pointless, Dany would have been better off to not stop the rape, not stop the abuse, & allow the riders to do as they wished with Mirri. Mirri may have felt she had lost everything & that further abuse meant nothing but I find that dubious at best because any person of normal intelligence understands that the more abuse you suffer the worse it is, it isn't as if once you have been raped it can't get any worse so might as well let everyone rape you. Being raped once is horrific, being raped 4 times is 4 times more horrific, 8 times would be even more horrific.

It has very little  to do with normal of suffering, Mirri seems past  the breaking point, and yes there are moments in which our brain just numbs when the suffering is too much to bear. Now, we could see that Mirri is just talking out of her ass and even she could've realized that what she was saying wasn't true but her actions and words show a woman who no longer cares  about her fate or knows that her lot is hell and wants to be done with it the sooner the better.

 

One of our disagreements here is that you don't really believe Mirri when she says she's a broken woman and more abuse would not break her more than she is now.  

22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

and what choice was she given in that matter? None. So while she may be considered Drogo's wife, she is still a slave or at best a hostage there. 

What choice are people given  in arranged marriages?? 

 Aren't they married then??

 

 

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And the moment you are calling Daenerys a free person shows the lengths in which you are willing to go in this argument.

Did Dany have any choice but to be married to Drogo & join the khalasar? No. 

Did Dany have a choice about whether or not she had sex with Drogo? No. 

Was Dany allowed to stay or leave as she wished? No. 

In what universe is that a free person? 

Mirri profits in the same way Dany does, she has food & protection from the elements among the khalasar. So if Dany "profits" from them, so does Mirri.

Dany and Cersei are interchangeable there, she did not choose Robert, she is abused by Robert as he pleases, and the abuse only isn't so repeated just because Robert is tired of her, any actions taken by her, Jaime or her father would mean their instant  death and shunning, and she's only  allowed to stay or leave as much as Robert wants and she sure as hell can't stay or leave as she wished.

Her power, as much as Dany's, comes from the amount of sway she has over her husband and for the fact that Robert is capable of taking Ned's head as long as she stops nagging him. I could put Cat her as well, sure Ned is great and all and we know that Ned is no abuser, but Cat is forced to deal with Jon and there was no single compromise, could Cat just leave Winterfell because the pain and humiliation was too much?? And just as Dany, Cat ended up forgiving her hubby's "imperfections" and loving him with all her heart.

Dany' situation is the same westerosi noble women, sure they have a bit more of make up but still. Is Cersei a Queen or a Slave/Hostage?? Is Cersei's position, and with it her profits, the same Senelle's??

 

 

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LOL! "her words should be punishable" ?! I think that is going a little far. So if you express the want to take back something you believe has been stolen from you, you should be punished for that? 

Is this not the same, exact thing Mirri does? Daenerys expresses a wish & desire to take back the IT because she believes it has been stolen from her family. Mirri expresses a wish & desire & then goes further by carrying out her wish & desire to punish those who have stolen from her. If Dany is responsible for influencing Drogo, then Mirri is doubly responsible for acting on her wishes right? 

I'm not talking about prison or death but about being hold accountable for it. And yes, if you talk express the dise of wanting back something stolen from you and try to convince someone to go to war, you should have some responsability for it.

 

Ofc Mirri is responsible for acting on her wishes, i said that many times already.

 

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I'm sorry but I'm not totally understanding this sentence, so correct me if I'm wrong. 

I believe you are saying it's ok to kill a child because they may be a mass murderer in the future? The issue here is we can't see the future, we don't know what the child would have turned into & neither does Mirri. She is basing her opinion on a prophecy that has absolutely no evidence to be true & she knows that. She is using it as an excuse or justification to kill an unborn baby. 

Sorry, shouldn't write while i'm going to college, especially if i don't control the language.

No, I said that i believe Mirri has a more righteous reason to avenge herself, she witnessed first hand what it happened and how it happened. If Mirri had a son and said son decided to attack the Dothraki 15 years  from now, i'd say the same i say about Dany, he's fighting for her mother's ghosts, not his own.

 

 

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She is an upjumped slave. Most women are, even in Westeros, let alone in a Dothraki khalasar. She is sold to a man & used repeatedly with no regard to whether she consents or not. She has no choice but to allow this to happen & is so broken by it that she actually considers suicide. 

Again, I've given you the quotes. She doesn't convince Drogo. 

She isn't, she is Drogo's wife. Even if you want to call her that, the difference between an umpjumped slave and Mirri' situation is just sideral.

I gave you the quotes too, she influences Drogo's decision.

 

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That's fine she can feel that way but we know & so does she that Dany did stop shit. Mirri is bitter & angry about what they have done to her village & I totally get that. But I do not believe for one second that she is incapable of understanding what Dany did for her & what she was saved from. She allowed her anger to cloud her judgement or she deliberately lied. She wanted someone to pay for what happened to her village & because Dany helped her she was in a vulnerable position to Mirri. Mirri used that to her advantage, simple as that. 

She's saying that Dany did not save shit for her again, she was too broken at that point to believe or even feel she was saved from shit.

 

 

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Whether or not the others were grateful they didn't set out to kill Danys unborn child. Does that not show that Mirri's attitude & thought process toward the whole thing is not very normal? 

The bolded contradicts your own points. If Mirri had every reason (according to you) to target Dany & Khal Drogo but did neither - she only tried to help Drogo heal & didn't directly target Dany at all then the only person she truly targeted was the baby. This makes her evil & vile & cowardly. There just isn't anyway to say Mirri was on the side of righteousness is that. 

It's not like they have the opportunity to do so, or even the strenght of will to do so, or could just be too broken to do so.

Nope, I said that Mirri has every reason to target Dany and Drogo but didn't. I'm not sure whether she was using reverse psychology with Drogo but she did not target Dany. And mind you.

I don't believe her either evil or coward, killing a baby is always vile however.

 

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Sure what she is feeling means a lot irt why she did what she did, but her feelings don't weigh on the scales when judging if something is right or wrong, morally. 

It's Dany's war against the Baratheon morally right from your pov?? 

 

 

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It may not make any difference to her victim but that has no bearing on whether or not Dany is in the wrong for profiting from the people she is forced to live with. 

And if i was arguing that, you would be right. I'm not however.

 

 

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He raids plenty of people just because he feels like it but this particular raid was to fund an invasion on Westeros to answer for the attempt on Dany & his unborn childs life. 

An answer Dany influenced him to give.

 

 

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Um.. no she didn't. Drogo agreed to invade Westeros & gift the IT to his son, but that never happened, Drogo died & that particular invasion of Westeros died with it. Dany will launch her own invasion, presumably, eventually, but to date she has not "got the war she wanted" 

She got what she wanted, which was Drogo's agreement.

 

@SeanF

 

Quote

I don't condemn Mirri for getting her revenge, but I don't condemn Daenerys for getting hers, either.

Nor do i.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 2/4/2020 at 9:09 PM, Prince Rhaego said:

The life of Prince Rhaego Targaryen was worth more than the life of that maegi and any westeros family.

Agree.  Prince Rheago Targaryen was the son of the heir to the throne of Westeros and the undefeated khal. 

[SeanF]

As a general issue, if we're comparing the lot of married women with slaves, then that might a point that the author is making.

If Drogo tired of Dany, and hanged her, or sold her, or gave her to his blood riders, she'd have no redress.  To that extent, her situation is worse than that of a noblewoman of Westeros.