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Lyanna<3Rhaegar

Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

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2 hours ago, Unit A2 said:

MMD had somewhat justifiable reason to hate Drogo.  She had absolutely no justification to hate Daenerys and Rhaego.  It matters not who Daenerys is.  That Daenerys showed compassion towards MMD should have excluded her from the witch's hate.  It is unfortunate, MMD is human and while she appears calm and collected, she is not above grief.  Grief made her indiscriminate.  MMD was mad with grief.  She let the hate come out and hurt the one person who showed her compassion.  MMD and Stoneheart have a lot in common.  Both may think it's justice they do but in the end, it was nothing but hate and revenge. 

MMD took responsibility for what happened to Drogo.  She confessed to murdering Rhaego.  That is an admission of guilt.  A confession, delivered with venom and spite.  MMD was a hateful woman.  She deserved her punishment.  Most of the powerful people in this story would have done worse to her if she had killed their favorite child.  Think of what Tywin, Stannis, Robert, Balon, Manderly, and Doran would do if this witch had killed their favorite child.  They would have tortured her for days and months before letting her die in agony.  Manderly would have eaten her remains.  MMD deserved to burn.  I agree with Daenerys in burning MMD. 

I don't think many people would have acted differently either to MMD, or Daenerys in this situation.  I think it's unrealistic to expect either MMD or Dany to be forgiving.

But, I agree that I don't think it's right to absolve MMD of responsibility for Rhaego's death.  First she told Daenerys she knew the price, then she bragged about it, claiming it was for the greater good.  One can argue Rhaego deserved it, but I don't think there's much doubt MMD did it.

Edited by SeanF

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5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

You overstate her power.  Yes, she wanted Drogo to take the Iron Throne (anyone would in her position).  But the decision to fight was his alone.  She was no party to whatever was discussed or agreed between Drogo, Illyrio, and Viserys.  Nor was she, in any realistic sense, a consenting party to her marriage.  Her status was that of a chattel, who Drogo came to love.  On occasion, she asked him to ride West, but that's a thin basis upon which to blame her for murder, rape, and enslavement.

Drogo made all the decisions, Dany made none. At this point she would have even wanted the Iron Throne for herself, not for her son, if anyone had asked her opinion. After all, after Viserys III's was murdered by Drogo she told Jorah that she was the queen now, as her brother's heir - she, not Drogo's unborn son. Yet Drogo decided to seat his son on the throne of his maternal grandfather, not his wife.

Dany would have known what Drogo wanted to do to finance their journey west, but she had no say in any of that. And she was still a young girl then - theoretically knowing what it means to capture and sell slaves and actually seeing and experiencing what this means are two very different things - which we see again when Daenerys meets the Unsullied in Astapor and decides not just to buy them and leave.

Daenerys is just a good little girl until she hatches the dragon eggs. Always thinking about pleasing her brother (first) and then her so-called 'sun-and-stars' and her unborn son. Only when she loses them does she come into her own. She has to free herself for the standard roles reserved for women in her world, has to shake the shackles of bride and wife and mother and khaleesi before she can become the Mother of Dragons. And that's when she also completely transcends the culture she was stuck in - she is the first female khal of the Dothraki (that we know of) with much greater power than all her predecessors, she is the first woman with bloodriders, the first (and so far only) person who woke dragons from stone, etc.

The dragonless Dany, even the one trying to convince Drogo to invade Westeros for their unborn child, would have been little more than a dutiful khaleesi/queen consort to her powerful husband and a caring and protective mother to her child(ren). She wouldn't have been anything special.

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6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don't think many people would have acted differently either to MMD. Or Daenerys in this situation.  I think it's unrealistic to expect either MMD or Dany to be forgiving.

You can compare Mirri to Osha. Or Ellaria. Or even Catelyn at the war council where the morons made Robb king. Forgiveness is always an option, even in this world.

And I'd actually say that Dany did not act out of vengeance or cruelty in the end. She really does no longer care much about Mirri. She just gets chained to the pyre because Dany realizes that this is necessary for what she wants to do. If that hadn't been the case she might have even survived - although I'd say it would have been more likely that she would have just been quickly killed. If Dany had wanted to cruelly torture her the point to do that would have been around the time she learned how Mirri had betrayed her.

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13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Drogo made all the decisions, Dany made none. At this point she would have even wanted the Iron Throne for herself, not for her son, if anyone had asked her opinion. After all, after Viserys III's was murdered by Drogo she told Jorah that she was the queen now, as her brother's heir - she, not Drogo's unborn son. Yet Drogo decided to seat his son on the throne of his maternal grandfather, not his wife.

Dany would have known what Drogo wanted to do to finance their journey west, but she had no say in any of that. And she was still a young girl then - theoretically knowing what it means to capture and sell slaves and actually seeing and experiencing what this means are two very different things - which we see again when Daenerys meets the Unsullied in Astapor and decides not just to buy them and leave.

Daenerys is just a good little girl until she hatches the dragon eggs. Always thinking about pleasing her brother (first) and then her so-called 'sun-and-stars' and her unborn son. Only when she loses them does she come into her own. She has to free herself for the standard roles reserved for women in her world, has to shake the shackles of bride and wife and mother and khaleesi before she can become the Mother of Dragons. And that's when she also completely transcends the culture she was stuck in - she is the first female khal of the Dothraki (that we know of) with much greater power than all her predecessors, she is the first woman with bloodriders, the first (and so far only) person who woke dragons from stone, etc.

The dragonless Dany, even the one trying to convince Drogo to invade Westeros for their unborn child, would have been little more than a dutiful khaleesi/queen consort to her powerful husband and a caring and protective mother to her child(ren). She wouldn't have been anything special.

Sure.  There's a real misunderstanding that Dany is Drogo's second in command of the Khalasar.  Her status is that of a slave with privileges.  It would be like holding the favourite concubine of the Ottoman Sultan responsible for the behaviour of his soldiers on campaign.

That's why in real life, civilised people would usually hold adult males fully responsible for crimes committed, while holding wives (especially young brides) much less culpable.  They have nothing like the agency of a husband.

Edited by SeanF

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26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Sure.  There's a real misunderstanding that Dany is Drogo's second in command of the Khalasar.  Her status is that of a slave with privileges.  It would be like holding the favourite concubine of the Ottoman Sultan responsible for the behaviour of his soldiers on campaign.

That's why in real life, civilised people would usually hold adult males fully responsible for crimes committed, while holding wives (especially young brides) much less culpable.  They have nothing like the agency of a husband.

Yeah, and this very much extends to Westeros. Women are just, for the most part, not really people in the sense that they are relevant on the political sphere. We see this again and again, and very poignantly during the Dance where Alicent Hightower is omitted from the blood vow at the beginning because she is a woman, how Alicent and Helaena are spared when Rhaenyra takes the capital because women aren't really important in their own right, how Alicent is spared again after the rise of Aegon III, etc. If Aegon II had ever caught Rhaenyra's consort during the Dance he would have been executed immediately.

From that also comes this whole 'women are the last ones standing in a feud' and 'women's vengeance is the most cruel' which we see in Meereen with those nameless Pahl widows and the Green Grace - and in a very real sense in Daenerys herself. The last Targaryen left, a girl that was forgotten because she was a girl.

In our day and age one sees that with many female criminals being able to shift blame away from them by painting themselves as the loyal follower of her male accomplices, as you say. In war and revolutions female partisans routinely were the greatest heroes because the men were stuck in the forests while the women, appearing harmless and apolitical could enter enemy territory to do reconnaissance or bring back provisions or stay in contact with other cells and allies.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, and this very much extends to Westeros. Women are just, for the most part, not really people in the sense that they are relevant on the political sphere. We see this again and again, and very poignantly during the Dance where Alicent Hightower is omitted from the blood vow at the beginning because she is a woman, how Alicent and Helaena are spared when Rhaenyra takes the capital because women aren't really important in their own right, how Alicent is spared again after the rise of Aegon III, etc. If Aegon II had ever caught Rhaenyra's consort during the Dance he would have been executed immediately.

From that also comes this whole 'women are the last ones standing in a feud' and 'women's vengeance is the most cruel' which we see in Meereen with those nameless Pahl widows and the Green Grace - and in a very real sense in Daenerys herself. The last Targaryen left, a girl that was forgotten because she was a girl.

In our day and age one sees that with many female criminals being able to shift blame away from them by painting themselves as the loyal follower of her male accomplices, as you say. In war and revolutions female partisans routinely were the greatest heroes because the men were stuck in the forests while the women, appearing harmless and apolitical could enter enemy territory to do reconnaissance or bring back provisions or stay in contact with other cells and allies.

It's why I said upthread.  Hold Daenerys accountable - even though she's a woman- when she's the one in charge.  But, a Khaleesi is not the one in charge, nor is she anywhere in the chain of command.

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Sorry for butting in without reading the previous posts.

I would like to note that Dany trusted Mirri Maz Duur to save her family when she really had no reason to trust her.
And once she let that happened with a sacrifice, the results did betrayed her.

I think this situation foreshadows the prophecy of Lightbringer ... how everyone thinks it may save them, but actually betrays them later.

Has anyone guessed the meaning behind the name of "Mirri Maz Duur"?
Well if you spell "Duur" backwards, you get "Ruud"
MiRRi mAz RuuD ... this name looks familiar ... hmmmmmmmm
(come to the Dark Side!)

Edited by The Map Guy

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For sure, it definitely isn't explicitly stated. I guess it's the way I would feel in Mirri's shoes. That coupled with the fact that she goads Daenerys after the fact, she certainly isn't grateful in the slightest for Dany's kindness. Their exchange reads as a lesson to be taught:

"You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse."

             "No," Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price."

Note here that MMD very much implies the baby's life paid for Drogo's. She specifically says the Horse was not the price. Although I think that may be a lie, she tells Dany this to hurt her. Whether it's to hurt her with the truth or a lie. 

"The price was paid," Dany said. "The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid." She rose from her cushions. "Where is Khal Drogo? Show him to me, godswife, maegi, bloodmage, whatever you are. Show me Khal Drogo. Show me what I bought with my sons life." 

Jorah & Mirri take her to Drogo

 

"Your spells are costly, maegi." 

                          "He lives," said Mirri Maz Duur. "You asked for life. You paid for life." 

  "This is not life, for one who was as Drogo was. His life was laughter, and meat roasting over a firepit, and a horse between his legs. His life was an arakh in his hand and his bells ringing in his hari as he rode to meet an enemy. His life was his bloodriders, and the son I was to give him." 

 "You knew what I was buying, and you knew the price, and yet you let me pay it." 

Note here, "This is not life" reminds of MMD later explaining why Dany didn't "save" her because she had nothing left. Also "And you let ME pay it."

Not you let Drogo pay it, you let ME pay it. Mirri answers not with denial but with an explanation. An explanation as to why she let Dany pay the price. 

                      "It was wrong of them to burn my temple," the heavy, flat-nosed woman said placidly. "That angered the Great Shepherd."

"This was no god's work," Dany said coldly. If I look back I am lost. "You cheated me. You murdered my child withing me."

                          "The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust."

Mirri doesn't say "Yes I murdered your child within you" but she doesn't deny it. Dany states it & Mirri replies with her reasoning. 

 

"I spoke for you," she said, anguished. "I saved you."

                             "Saved me?" The Lhazareen woman spat. "Three riders had taken me, not as a man takes a woman but from behind, as a dog takes a bitch. The fourth was in me when you rode past. How then did you save me? I saw my god's house burn, where I had healed good men beyond counting. My home they burned as well, and in the street I saw piles of heads. I saw the head of a baker who made my bread. I saw the head of a boy I had saved from deadeye fever, only three moons past. I heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips. Tell me again what you saved."

"Your life." 

             Mirri Maz Duur laughed cruelly. "Look to your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone." 

The parallel between what Mirri gave her as a "life" vs what Mirri felt Dany gave her as a "life" I don't think can be ignored. She specifically tells Dany, look at what life is worth when all else is gone. I don't think it's coincidence that the lesson Dany is getting taught is coming from the women who Dany gave essentially the same thing. 

 Also, because I don't believe Mirri really killed Rhaego I find it odd for her to claim it or allow Dany to think it, unless she wants to punish Dany. 

 

Thank you! that was great. Hm, I see what you mean. You certainly have a point. I need to reread Dany's AGOT's chapters. I haven't done so in a long time. I guess rn I agree with you, but have to go back and reread the chapters and think about it a bit. But yeah, I think you are right. Also agree with what @Unit A2 said about Mirri just being overcome with grief (there was nothing left, I guess she was certainly not afraid to die) and the need for revenge. Dany was naive to trust her, which really shows that she is still a child.

But I also understand and Mirri. I kind of really like her as a character. IMO she has some of the best and truest lines ever. And I guess I'm just really biased here, because I despised Drogo so much and did a dance of joy, when he was finally dead- maybe that's why Mirri remained in may memory as sort of hero. (She is kind of my hero for killing him of) Because tbh if Drogo had stayed alive, I dunno, if I had kept reading the Dany chapters, I just pushed through them in AGOT, because my friend spoiled his death for me (because I whined about Drogo so much he took mercy on me :laugh:). I just could never see Drogo as something else but her captor and abuser. And when Dany was grieving and thought Mirri had taken everything away from her, I couldn't help but think: "she hasn't, she has set you free and this isn't the end it's the beginning." But of course it was extremely traumatic for Dany, especially with losing her son as well. But in the long run I think it was the best, that could have happened to her, that Drogo died. Her son is of course a different matter, but I also think Dany's life would not be the same with a child. Hard to tell how it all would have played out

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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49 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Thank you! that was great. Hm, I see what you mean. You certainly have a point. I need to reread Dany's AGOT's chapters. I haven't done so in a long time. I guess rn I agree with you, but have to go back and reread the chapters and think about it a bit. But yeah, I think you are right. Also agree with what @Unit A2 said about Mirri just being overcome with grief (there was nothing left, I guess she was certainly not afraid to die) and the need for revenge. Dany was naive to trust her, which really shows that she is still a child.

But I also understand and Mirri. I kind of really like her as a character. IMO she has some of the best and truest lines ever. And I guess I'm just really biased here, because I despised Drogo so much and did a dance of joy, when he was finally dead- maybe that's why Mirri remained in may memory as sort of hero. (She is kind of my hero for killing him of) Because tbh if Drogo had stayed alive, I dunno, if I had kept reading the Dany chapters, I just pushed through them in AGOT, because my friend spoiled his death for me (because I whined about Drogo so much he took mercy on me :laugh:). I just could never see Drogo as something else but her captor and abuser. And when Dany was grieving and thought Mirri had taken everything away from her, I couldn't help but think: "she hasn't, she has set you free and this isn't the end it's the beginning." But of course it was extremely traumatic for Dany, especially with losing her son as well. But in the long run I think it was the best, that could have happened to her, that Drogo died. Her son is of course a different matter, but I also think Dany's life would not be the same with a child. Hard to tell how it all would have played out

I think it's one of the best-written chapter in the series.  I really do sympathise with Mirri, and I really do sympathise with Daenerys. Mirri was taking her revenge on the right person (Drogo) but also on the wrong person (Daenerys) which is often the consequence of quests for revenge.

Edited by SeanF

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is tangled up somewhat, and pretty ambiguous, too. I guess one can take the apparent start of the birth as a sign that the spell and whatever ghosts or demons Mirri summoned (the shadows Dany saw in the tent) reaching out to claim Rhaego ... but one could also just take it as a sudden arrival of the birth due to all the stress she had to go through.

Yeah for sure. It could mean either one. 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If an animal sacrifice could bring back or heal a human being then we should see animal sacrifices happen much more often in healing or resurrection spells (just as we should see both of them happening much more often since life/health would come pretty cheap then).

Yeah I agree. My thought was more like IF it was the horse paying for Drogo's life then that might explain why Drogo was a vegtable. Like maybe the horses life was enough to heal him in the sense that it took away the infection but not enough for him to have any brain function. Of course that's all just spit-balling on my part, I have no evidence of that. 

The more logical answer, of course, is that the horse didn't pay for Drogo's life & Rhaego's did. 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And what Mirri later says essentially confirms that she deliberately killed Rhaego. That he was the sacrifice to bring back or heal Drogo. There is a small chance that she may have lied there ... but why should she? It would have been much more painful to Dany if she had blamed Dany herself for Rhaego's death by pointing out that she should have never returned into the tent. She could have said that the ghosts/demons did it, that she could not protect the unborn child from them after Dany had been brought back into the tent. That could have made Dany's suffering even worse.

You have a point there. I assumed if she lied it would be to hurt Dany but you are right, if Rhaego died from going into the tent, telling Dany that would hurt her more. 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And there is the fact that Dany is completely cut off from Rhaego, only remembering him pretty late after she wakes up again. This indicates that Mirri may have been right that Dany subconsciously knew that Rhaego was the price for Drogo's return - or at least that Dany already knew by that time subconsciously that Rhaego was already dead - claimed as a sacrifice by the spell against her will while he was still in her body.

Yeah, I've always wondered about that part. Why Dany wouldn't remember the baby as soon as she regained consciousness. This could be the reason. 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Those things are domino stones that have to fall for Dany to be able to pull of the dragon-hatching thing. Mirri Maz Duur is at best the 'lubricant' or fuel for this huge spell thing. She means nothing to Dany, is no proper sacrifice. She sacrificed three people for her three dragons - first her brother Viserys III at Vaes Dothrak, then her unborn son Rhaego, and finally her husband Drogo. There is a reason why the dragons are later named Viserion, Rhaegal, and Drogon. She didn't really want to do that - but it happened. And when she lost Rhaego and saw what had become of Drogo she understood what she had to do next.

 I do find it odd that Viserys would count as a sacrifice though when he was killed so much earlier, not by Dany's word, & not in the pyre that hatched the dragons. But I agree it doesn't really make sense for her to name them that otherwise. 

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

When George talks about this whole 'singular event thing' that was the dragon-hatching thing he basically means Dany's entire story in AGoT up to that point. Only a person who has made those sacrifices (or has suffered those losses) can pull off a spell like that.

Absolutely. I've often wondered who Rhaegar intended to sacrifice, assuming he knew enough to know he needed to. 

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3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Thank you! that was great. Hm, I see what you mean. You certainly have a point. I need to reread Dany's AGOT's chapters. I haven't done so in a long time. I guess rn I agree with you, but have to go back and reread the chapters and think about it a bit. But yeah, I think you are right. Also agree with what @Unit A2 said about Mirri just being overcome with grief (there was nothing left, I guess she was certainly not afraid to die) and the need for revenge. Dany was naive to trust her, which really shows that she is still a child.

:) For sure, Reread them & let me know what you think. Mirri was absolutely overcome with grief. 

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But I also understand and Mirri. I kind of really like her as a character. IMO she has some of the best and truest lines ever. And I guess I'm just really biased here, because I despised Drogo so much and did a dance of joy, when he was finally dead- maybe that's why Mirri remained in may memory as sort of hero. (She is kind of my hero for killing him of) Because tbh if Drogo had stayed alive, I dunno, if I had kept reading the Dany chapters, I just pushed through them in AGOT, because my friend spoiled his death for me (because I whined about Drogo so much he took mercy on me :laugh:). I just could never see Drogo as something else but her captor and abuser. And when Dany was grieving and thought Mirri had taken everything away from her, I couldn't help but think: "she hasn't, she has set you free and this isn't the end it's the beginning." But of course it was extremely traumatic for Dany, especially with losing her son as well. But in the long run I think it was the best, that could have happened to her, that Drogo died. Her son is of course a different matter, but I also think Dany's life would not be the same with a child. Hard to tell how it all would have played out

It is one of my favorite chapters in the entire series. I understand Mirri but I never really liked her. I never hated Drogo either. Drogo was a savage horselord but he was true to who he is. There was no malicious intent or falsehood about him, he lived how he died; violently. He certainly inflicted some abuse on Dany though. I do understand completely why Mirri wanted to harm Drogo though. My heart just breaks for Daenerys because she had made a place for herself, even though it was in this violent, savage society, she had grown to love Drogo, whether he was worthy of that love or not. 

I like how you look at Mirri setting Dany free - I had never thought of it that way but she did. I don't think that was her intention but without Mirri Dany would have been in that life for as long as Drogo lived & she certainly never would have hatched the dragons. 

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The lesson was that no amount of personal kindness can wash the blood from your hands. Dany tried to "save" Mirri because she felt guilty... probably because she IS guilty on some part. She wants the IT and is willing to pay the price in slaves. If the situation isnt Dany's fault, it invalidates the lesson altogether. Dany bears some responsibility for what happened.

She ended up with a dead child for her efforts, but she still has to force a #win out of the situation. I'd argue that because she came out of it triumphant she hasnt really experienced consequences of her actions. I'm waiting for the day.

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8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Sorry for butting in without reading the previous posts.

No worries, everyone is welcome :)

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

would like to note that Dany trusted Mirri Maz Duur to save her family when she really had no reason to trust her.
And once she let that happened with a sacrifice, the results did betrayed her.

She did have some reason though. Dany had saved MMD from further abuse & MMD claims to be able to heal Drogo, to bring Drogo back to life etc. At that point Dany didn't really have any reason to not trust her IMO. 

 

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The lesson was that no amount of personal kindness can wash the blood from your hands. Dany tried to "save" Mirri because she felt guilty... probably because she IS guilty on some part.

Except Dany had no blood on her hands. She didn't try to save Mirri because she felt guilty, she tried to save Mirri because she felt it was the right thing to do. I don't think she holds any guilt in re to the attack on the Lhazareen. She holds other guilt, especially later in the series, but at this point she has no say in what is being done, she "saves" the victims of rape on a whim not knowing for sure if Drogo will back her or be angry with her. 

3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She ended up with a dead child for her efforts, but she still has to force a #win out of the situation. I'd argue that because she came out of it triumphant she hasnt really experienced consequences of her actions. I'm waiting for the day.

At this point she really doesn't have any actions to hold consequences for. I would argue she gets consequences for things that out of her control. She has been raised with out parents, by a cruel, pervert of a brother. Sold to a Dothraki Horse Lord & left to sink or swim, live or die. She makes the most of it & then loses her husband & child, among a few others she cares about. To hatch the dragons after that is hardly a "win". She really wanted to go "home" to have a home & in one swoop all of that was stolen from her. She didn't do anything to deserve all of that. 

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9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Except Dany had no blood on her hands. She didn't try to save Mirri because she felt guilty, she tried to save Mirri because she felt it was the right thing to do. I don't think she holds any guilt in re to the attack on the Lhazareen. She holds other guilt, especially later in the series, but at this point she has no say in what is being done, she "saves" the victims of rape on a whim not knowing for sure if Drogo will back her or be angry with her. 

 

In fact, she saved MMD twice.  First, in the Lhazareen village, and second, when Drogo's bloodriders wanted to stake Mirri out and rape her after Drogo's illness worsened.  The second time, she placed herself in real danger, because Drogo could no longer intervene.

I suppose you could say she's "responsible" for what happened, by virtue of not having run away from the Khalasar, or attempting to talk Drogo out of the attack, or for not having taken her own life to prevent the birth of an heir, but that's pretty weak.  Those are not reasonable expectations.

Edited by SeanF

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Except Dany had no blood on her hands. She didn't try to save Mirri because she felt guilty, she tried to save Mirri because she felt it was the right thing to do. I don't think she holds any guilt in re to the attack on the Lhazareen. She holds other guilt, especially later in the series, but at this point she has no say in what is being done, she "saves" the victims of rape on a whim not knowing for sure if Drogo will back her or be angry with her. 

She is willing to go along with it to pay for the ships. Is she giving up on the IT at the moment she sees all that destruction? Nope. She's trying to get the IT in a cleaner, guilt free way, and Mirri is just like, stop fooling yourself. Drogo recalls her asking for the throne for Rhaego, he is partially motivated by her urging. Otherwise he'd just go kill Robert himself, and that would be that. 

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

At this point she really doesn't have any actions to hold consequences for. I would argue she gets consequences for things that out of her control. She has been raised with out parents, by a cruel, pervert of a brother. Sold to a Dothraki Horse Lord & left to sink or swim, live or die. She makes the most of it & then loses her husband & child, among a few others she cares about. To hatch the dragons after that is hardly a "win". She really wanted to go "home" to have a home & in one swoop all of that was stolen from her. She didn't do anything to deserve all of that. 

Of course she has actions that are her own even that situation. Wanting the throne. Burning Mirri, who was a raped slave. Bringing back nuclear weapons. Dany bears responsibility for what happened.

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16 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She is willing to go along with it to pay for the ships. Is she giving up on the IT at the moment she sees all that destruction? Nope. She's trying to get the IT in a cleaner, guilt free way, and Mirri is just like, stop fooling yourself. Drogo recalls her asking for the throne for Rhaego, he is partially motivated by her urging. Otherwise he'd just go kill Robert himself, and that would be that. 

Of course she has actions that are her own even that situation. Wanting the throne. Burning Mirri, who was a raped slave. Bringing back nuclear weapons. Dany bears responsibility for what happened.

A 14 year old bride is obviously not in  command of a Khalasar, nor any part of the chain of command.  In the same way that Lady Frey did not conduct the Red Wedding, nor Joanna Lannister carry out the extermination of the Reynes and Tarbecks.  Married women have very limited agency in this world.

Edited by SeanF

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13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In fact, she saved MMD twice.  First, in the Lhazareen village, and second, when Drogo's bloodriders wanted to stake Mirri out and rape her after Drogo's illness worsened.  The second time, she placed herself in real danger, because Drogo could no longer intervene.

I suppose you could say she's "responsible" for what happened, by virtue of not having run away from the Khalasar, or attempting to talk Drogo out of the attack, or for not having taken her own life to prevent the birth of an heir, but that's pretty weak.  Those are not reasonable expectations.

Agreed. 

7 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She is willing to go along with it to pay for the ships. Is she giving up on the IT at the moment she sees all that destruction? Nope. She's trying to get the IT in a cleaner, guilt free way, and Mirri is just like, stop fooling yourself. Drogo recalls her asking for the throne for Rhaego, he is partially motivated by her urging. Otherwise he'd just go kill Robert himself, and that would be that. 

Saying she is "willing" to go along implies she has a choice in the matter & she really doesn't. She could not command them to stop, she could not run away (without losing her own life) She could have pleaded with Drogo not to do it again but that would fall on deaf ears, he is above all else a Dothraki & this is their way of life. To presume Dany could do one, single thing to change their way of life is just simply not true. 

Trying to get to the IT in a cleaner, guilt free way is a good thing. Would it have been better for her to not feel anything in regards to the massacre she was witnessing in Lhazareen? Would it have been better for her to not try to save anyone? 

He really isn't motivated by her urging in the slightest. He is motivated by the fact that someone Robert sent made an attempt on Dany's life & Jorah told him there would be more to come. 

So Drogo would just hop on a ship, ride on over to Westeros, enter the castle, kill Robert, & be on his merry way huh? That is not a very good plan & most certainly wouldn't have been a successful one. First and foremost he cannot leave his khalasar with no leader, they would disband & form new khalasars just as they do when he dies. Secondly, if he made it to Westeros & to the castle without Robert getting wind of him (something that is unlikely considering he would be very recognizable) he wouldn't be allowed into the castle, let alone close to Robert. He is savage & strong but he still cannot take on entire armies himself. 

13 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Of course she has actions that are her own even that situation. Wanting the throne

Why should wanting the throne bear bad consequences? Aegon the conquerer wanted the throne, Robert wanted the throne, Renly & Stannis wanted the throne, Viserys wanted the throne. Wanting the throne in & of itself is not something inherently evil or bad. 

14 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Burning Mirri, who was a raped slave.

Mirri who was a raped slave & a confessed murderer. Dany herself was raped as well does that mean she gets to go around killing people & taking her revenge on unborn children & women who stopped the rape? 

If Mirri is justified in killing Drogo & Rhaego then Dany is justified in killing her. 

16 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Bringing back nuclear weapons.

This I can agree on but she is only responsible for the actions of the dragons. Thus far they have done some things (killing the little girl) but Daenerys does try to stop that. She feels horrible about it & locks up her dragons because of it. That being said, I think you & I will agree a lot more on what blame Dany holds later in the series. As of yet she has done some questionable but mostly understandable things. I don't expect that to always be the case, although I'll be pleasantly surprised if it is. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Agreed. 

Saying she is "willing" to go along implies she has a choice in the matter & she really doesn't. She could not command them to stop, she could not run away (without losing her own life) She could have pleaded with Drogo not to do it again but that would fall on deaf ears, he is above all else a Dothraki & this is their way of life. To presume Dany could do one, single thing to change their way of life is just simply not true. 

 

If you're judging Daenerys by modern standards, only the people who actually carry out war crimes are responsible for them.

If you're judging her by in-universe standards, any civilised person accepts that married women are not responsible for what their husbands do in war.

Edited by SeanF

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23 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If you're judging Daenerys by modern standards, only the people who actually carry out war crimes are responsible for them.

If you're judging her by in-universe standards, any civilised person accepts that married women are not responsible for what their husbands do in war.

Yeah, Daenerys has no power in universe to stop or sway the Dothraki in any manner. Any pseudo-power she may have derives solely from Drogo & whether or not he will agree with her. 

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