The Astapori situation

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Slavery didn't exactly end suddenly in the south.  Yes it ended legally.  But slavery existed in the south for a time.  Thanks to Daenerys Targaryen, 8000 plus Unsullied are free.  Puppies and newborn babies are no longer ritualistically murdered daily.  Yes, the situation is bad, but don't kid yourself.  It was terrible before.  I would have done as Daenerys did.  There is always time to build up strength and fix the city later.  The most important matter at hand was to free the Unsullied.  

In addition to 8,000  Unsullied, 5,000 trainees, and 40,000 non-combatants were rescued.

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

It's always been an argument of slavers that some people are meant to be slaves,

That is not my argument at all. The unsullied are not like natural slaves in our own world, you understand that right?

They are made warrior slaves at a very young age, castrated and made to drink some kind of drug every day. From what we have seen they don't seem to have any real free will.

They replaced one slave owner with another.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

 

and would not understand what freedom means if you gave it to them.  Kraznys makes this argument in relation to Unsullied, and Xaro more generally.

And it may be true in the case of the unsullied. They were told that Dany was their master and they've obeyed her ever since, they've died for her.

If we had seen significant portions of them choosing to leave Dany it would be another matter, but they serve and die for another master, nothing seems to have changed. Dany might be nicer to them, but they still seem to obey whatever she says.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

We should recognise it for the bullshit it is.

?

 

[SeanF]

21 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is not my argument at all. The unsullied are not like natural slaves in our own world, you understand that right?

They are made warrior slaves at a very young age, castrated and made to drink some kind of drug every day. From what we have seen they don't seem to have any real free will.

They replaced one slave owner with another.

And it may be true in the case of the unsullied. They were told that Dany was their master and they've obeyed her ever since, they've died for her.

If we had seen significant portions of them choosing to leave Dany it would be another matter, but they serve and die for another master, nothing seems to have changed. Dany might be nicer to them, but they still seem to obey whatever she says.

?

 

The Unsullied chose their own names, chose their own officers, went on strike when Hizdahr took over, get paid, and Grey Worm discusses tactics with Daenerys and the others.

So, there's quite a bit of evidence that they are free people with their own wills. Being a servant or soldier does not make one a slave.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is not my argument at all. The unsullied are not like natural slaves in our own world, you understand that right?

They are made warrior slaves at a very young age, castrated and made to drink some kind of drug every day. From what we have seen they don't seem to have any real free will.

They replaced one slave owner with another.

And it may be true in the case of the unsullied. They were told that Dany was their master and they've obeyed her ever since, they've died for her.

If we had seen significant portions of them choosing to leave Dany it would be another matter, but they serve and die for another master, nothing seems to have changed. Dany might be nicer to them, but they still seem to obey whatever she says.

They do have free will and we see that. Like so many of the freedmen who are not Unsullied and who joined Daenerys to be with her and fight her (think of the many companies of freedmen that were founded in Meereen) they are still with her because they want to be with her.

As I pointed out, the Unsullied only move against the Good Masters of Astapor when Dany throws away the whip that symbolizes her hold over the Unsullied and cries out 'freedom'. They know she means to kill the slavers who made them and free all the slaves of Astapor. That's a goal they seem to share. This is not a mindless obedience to orders but a time when their innermost desire and the commands of their new owner fall into one.

Sure, at first their conditioning may have played a role there, but Dany made it clear to them that they are no longer slaves and that they are free. How free they are by the time of ADwD we see when they refuse to fight for King Hizdahr after Dany's disappearance/alleged death. Hizdahr is her lawful husband and thus her natural heir/successor. They also stand with Barristan Selmy's coup and ended up supporting him in the coming battle - something that also wouldn't have happened if they were not thinking for themselves.

The bond Dany and her freedmen have is not one comparable to master and slave but rather one of gratitude and devotion - she freed them from bondage and they are thankful. She gave them their heart's desire and they now want to help her get what she wants.

[Bernie Mac]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

The Unsullied chose their own names, chose their own officers,

Wow. That is truly evidence that they let go the shackles of slavery and are free. They were told to chose their own names, to pick their own officers.

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

 

went on strike when Hizdahr took over,

So when their Master left they stopped obeying order?

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

 

get paid, and Grey Worm discusses tactics with Daenerys and the others.

Yes. I didn't call them drones, I expect past Unsullied commanders did the same.

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

So, there's quite a bit of evidence that they are free people with their own wills.

We've not seen anything to indicate they are not still obeying what they've been brainwashed to do, obey.

It seems strange that all these slaves who Dany 'paid' for all continue to carry on serving her. Do you think if we visited America in the 17th or 18th century, bought a thousand slaves and then told them all they were free we'd see them all stick around? Continue to serve and die for the last person who bought them?

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

 

Being a servant or soldier does not make one a slave.

No, but being bought and continue to act like a slave does.

I'm not really blaming Dany for this, she is a 15/16 year girl who believes that she is the rightful ruler of an entire continent, I don't expect her to see or think of what she is doing is bad. She probably thinks commanding them to be free makes them free, despite them still acting like slaves. Better treated slaves, perhaps yes, but slaves nonetheless.

These are a people who have been conditioned to serve unwittingly, to die when commanded. I'm really not sure a simple command of 'you are now free' undoes all the mental conditioning they have had done to them.

 

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They do have free will and we see that. Like so many of the freedmen who are not Unsullied and who joined Daenerys to be with her and fight her (think of the many companies of freedmen that were founded in Meereen) they are still with her because they want to be with her.

As I pointed out, the Unsullied only move against the Good Masters of Astapor when Dany throws away the whip that symbolizes her hold over the Unsullied and cries out 'freedom'. They know she means to kill the slavers who made them and free all the slaves of Astapor. That's a goal they seem to share. This is not a mindless obedience to orders but a time when their innermost desire and the commands of their new owner fall into one.

Sure, at first their conditioning may have played a role there, but Dany made it clear to them that they are no longer slaves and that they are free. How free they are by the time of ADwD we see when they refuse to fight for King Hizdahr after Dany's disappearance/alleged death. Hizdahr is her lawful husband and thus her natural heir/successor. They also stand with Barristan Selmy's coup and ended up supporting him in the coming battle - something that also wouldn't have happened if they were not thinking for themselves.

The bond Dany and her freedmen have is not one comparable to master and slave but rather one of gratitude and devotion - she freed them from bondage and they are thankful. She gave them their heart's desire and they now want to help her get what she wants.

I agree.

And, I'd add, people follow the calling they're trained for.  Being a professional soldier is quite a good job in this world, like being a legionary was a good job in the Roman Empire.

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Wow. That is truly evidence that they let go the shackles of slavery and are free. They were told to chose their own names, to pick their own officers.

So when their Master left they stopped obeying order?

Yes. I didn't call them drones, I expect past Unsullied commanders did the same.

We've not seen anything to indicate they are not still obeying what they've been brainwashed to do, obey.

It seems strange that all these slaves who Dany 'paid' for all continue to carry on serving her. Do you think if we visited America in the 17th or 18th century, bought a thousand slaves and then told them all they were free we'd see them all stick around? Continue to serve and die for the last person who bought them?

No, but being bought and continue to act like a slave does.

I'm not really blaming Dany for this, she is a 15/16 year girl who believes that she is the rightful ruler of an entire continent, I don't expect her to see or think of what she is doing is bad. She probably thinks commanding them to be free makes them free, despite them still acting like slaves. Better treated slaves, perhaps yes, but slaves nonetheless.

These are a people who have been conditioned to serve unwittingly, to die when commanded. I'm really not sure a simple command of 'you are now free' undoes all the mental conditioning they have had done to them.

 

When slaves were freed in the West Indies, being able to choose to their own names was of enormous importance to them.  It meant they were no longer chattels.

The Good Masters insisted that Daenerys would have to appoint officers over them.  She proved the Good Masters wrong.

Plainly, they don't obey Hizdahr, the person they would be conditioned to obey if they were still slaves.  He is, after all, Daenerys' husband. 

There's nothing strange about slaves who were freed, continuing to work for their former masters as paid workers.  Tiro did for Cicero, along with plenty of Roman freedmen.  Robert Carter III, a Virginian landowner, freed hundreds of his slaves in the 1780's, who became tenant farmers on his estates. 

It will take time to shake off the conditioning of being a slave, but the Unsullied are well on the way.