A Character Study of Gerion Lannister or random discussions of swords, any swords

[Lollygag]

Some of you may know that I have some pretty wackadoodle ideas about Gerion (he’s Illyrio—and also the (a) Shrouded Lord!) but these ideas originated by taking a closer look at Brightroar and the last person maybe connected to it who was Gerion. In this search, I found out that when we put all of the Gerion mentions together and connected the dots, we know a lot more about Gerion than what a first glance reveals leading me to believe that in some fashion, he plays a larger part in the story than what the general consensus believes. For this discussion, I’m just focusing strictly on Gerion as Gerion.

*Note: Gerion is a very strong Lann the Clever figure and I’ll point out these references as we go along. In contrast with Tywin who modelled himself after the fire & blood Targaryens, we see that Gerion is a truer carrier of the Lannister character leaving the reader with an impression of the Lannisters which isn't completely representative of their history and tradition, no doubt by intention.

 

 

Tywin’s dead brothers go back to AGOT

 

AGOT had yet to address a lot of the backstory of ASOIAF, yet we were told—twice— that Tywin had at least two dead brothers. This stands out as named family members are usually plot-relevant somehow in this series. As of the end of ADWD, that Tywin has two dead brothers is still purposeless information which adds a little color but nothing more to the overall story. Unless it isn’t…

Thus, as of AGOT, Tywin has at least 3 brothers and the unnecessary mentions of the dead ones make Tygett and/or Gerion seem more important.

 

AGOT Eddard VII: "Cousins. Sons of Lord Tywin's brother. One of the dead ones. Or perhaps the live one, now that I come to think on it. I don't recall. My wife comes from a very large family, Ned."

 

AGOT Tyrion VII: Ser Kevan Lannister, his father's only surviving brother, was sharing a flagon of ale with Lord Tywin when Tyrion entered the common room. His uncle was portly and balding, with a close-cropped yellow beard that followed the line of his massive jaw. Ser Kevan saw him first. "Tyrion," he said in surprise.

 

 

 

 

 

Gerion and the Game

 

Gerion comes off as a good-time-without-a-care guy in true Lann the Clever fashion, but a closer read shows a strategic trickster.  All three of Tywin’s brothers viewed him as a competitor, with Tygett not winning and letting that eat him up, and Kevan giving up and resigning himself to Tywin’s shadow. But Gerion laughs when he doesn’t want to lose meaning that Gerion is in fact playing the game and calculating his odds of winning before playing. Gerion’s comment about his father below also reinforces that Gerion calculated when to laugh and when not to laugh. While Gerion is much like his father even unto the nickname the Laughing Lion, they differ in their taste for strategy and war with Gerion competing in tourneys where Tytos would not and Gerion valuing strong rule.

 

AFFC Jaime V: "Tired?" His aunt pursed her lips. "I suppose he has a right to be. It has been hard for Kevan, living all his life in Tywin's shadow. It was hard for all my brothers. That shadow Tywin cast was long and black, and each of them had to struggle to find a little sun. Tygett tried to be his own man, but he could never match your father, and that just made him angrier as the years went by. Gerion made japes. Better to mock the game than to play and lose. But Kevan saw how things stood early on, so he made himself a place by your father's side."

"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."

 

Below, we see Gerion try to win Robert’s favor for some reason. Tywin (probably accurately) judges this as a poor attempt, but Gerion would be aware that Robert and Eddard bear no love for Tywin.  It raises the question of what Gerion wanted from Robert. In the tourney below, we see that Rhaegar unhorsing Gerion is an accomplishment showing that Gerion had some competence (and competitiveness) in tourney play. There is a deliberate distinction between one sort of Laughing Lion and the other Laughing Lion.

 

ASOS Tyrion IV: When the guards had seen the armorer out, Tyrion clambered up onto a chair. "So . . . a sword for Joff, a sword for Jaime, and not even a dagger for the dwarf. Is that the way of it, Father?"

"The steel was sufficient for two blades, not three. If you have need of a dagger, take one from the armory. Robert left a hundred when he died. Gerion gave him a gilded dagger with an ivory grip and a sapphire pommel for a wedding gift, and half the envoys who came to court tried to curry favor by presenting His Grace with jewel-encrusted knives and silver inlay swords."

 

WOIAF: Later that same year, Lord Tywin Lannister, perhaps unwisely, held a great tournament at Lannisport in honor of Viserys's birth. Mayhaps it was meant to be a gesture toward reconciliation. There the wealth and power of House Lannister was displayed for all the realm to see. King Aerys at first refused to attend, then relented, but the queen and her new son were kept under confinement back at King's Landing. There, seated on his throne amongst hundreds of notables in the shadow of Casterly Rock, the king cheered lustily as his son Prince Rhaegar, newly knighted, unhorsed both Tygett and Gerion Lannister, and even overcame the gallant Ser Barristan Selmy, before falling in the champion's tilt to the renowned Kingsguard knight Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

 

TWOIAF—The Westerlands from the expanded version on GRRM’s site. http://www.georgerrmartin.com/world-of-ice-and-fire-sample

 

Lord Tytos Lannister had many virtues.  He was a cheerful man, good-hearted and gentle, a jolly companion at a feast, faithful to his lady wife, indulgent to his children.  Slow to anger and quick to forgive, he saw good in every man, great or small, and was too trusting by half.  Unlike his brothers, however, he was no warrior.  Though a squire as a youth, he was never knighted, and whilst he loved tourneys, it was always as a spectator, never a participant.  A plump boy, he became a fat man, for he had a great fondness for cheese, cakes, and beer.  The hunchback Lord Toad dubbed him ‘the Laughing Lion,’ for his jovial manner, and for a time the west laughed with him… but soon enough, it became apparent than there were some great lords and noble knights who were laughing at him instead.

Where matters of state were concerned, Lord Tytos proved himself weak-willed and indecisive, swaying back and forth between two courses of action as a reed in the wind.  He had no taste for war, and would laugh away insults that would have had most of his forebears shouting for their swords.  “Words are wind,” he would say, even when mocked to his face (for, indeed, he had been made the subject of mockery since he was a boy).  He would shrug off betrayals as misunderstandings, and forgive any trespass if asked for pardon.

“My lord father would have made a splendid innkeep,” observed Gerion Lannister, the youngest of Lord Tytos’s four sons, years later, “but old Toad would have been a better lord.”

He was not wrong.  House Lannister reached its nadir during the years that the Laughing Lion held court at Casterly Rock.

 

 

 

Gerion’s a slaver, a pirate, and possibly short on money. 

 

Another blight on Gerion’s character is that he’s a slaver and we know the gravity of this from Jorah's consequences. When he couldn’t find men willing to sail with him into Valyria, Gerion bought slaves and forced them to what they thought was their death. This speaks to ruthlessness and cruelty on Gerion’s part.

Resorting to buying slaves means that Gerion either couldn’t pay or wouldn’t pay a free crew to undertake such a risk. As Tywin’s younger brother and knowing the nature of men in that world, the right amount of money would tempt free men to take that risk if only to secure a better life for their families should they themselves not make it. But Gerion has to opt for slaves, so it makes more sense that the price of free men was too high for him. 

And more Lann the Clever stuff here. Lann pirated Casterly Rock not unlike how the Lannisters tricked and pirated their way to the Iron Throne. Where Brightroar is concerned, we have “plunder” and “treasure”.  Tywin calls this “a fool’s quest” (Lann was a trickster/fool).

 

ADWD Tyrion VIII: "I know some sailors say that any man who lays eyes upon that coast is doomed." He did not believe such tales himself, no more than his uncle had. Gerion Lannister had set sail for Valyria when Tyrion was eighteen, intent on recovering the lost ancestral blade of House Lannister and any other treasures that might have survived the Doom. Tyrion had wanted desperately to go with them, but his lord father had dubbed the voyage a "fool's quest," and forbidden him to take part.

And perhaps he was not so wrong. Almost a decade had passed since the Laughing Lion headed out from Lannisport, and Gerion had never returned. The men Lord Tywin sent to seek after him had traced his course as far as Volantis, where half his crew had deserted him and he had bought slaves to replace them. No free man would willingly sign aboard a ship whose captain spoke openly of his intent to sail into the Smoking Sea. "So those are fires of the Fourteen Flames we're seeing, reflected on the clouds?"

TWOIAF—The Westerlands

The sword Brightroar came into the possession of the Lannister kings in the century before the Doom, and it is said that the weight of gold they paid for it would have been enough to raise an army. But it was lost little more than a century later, when Tommen II carried it with him when he sailed with his great fleet to ruined Valyria, with the intention of plundering the wealth and sorcery he was sure still remained. The fleet never returned, nor Tommen, nor Brightroar.

 

 

 

What we know about the history between Tywin and Gerion.

 

The relationship between Tywin and Gerion was complicated. While their relationship was “notoriously stormy”, Gerion seemed to have some sympathy for Tywin’s loss of Joanna which caused “the best part of him” to die. Tywin despised his father Tytos the Laughing Lion so it raises the question of how Tywin, who hated laughter, felt about Gerion, another Laughing Lion. They at least agreed that Tytos’ rule was disastrous. All the same, we see Kevan’s submission lead to a better relationship with Tywin indicating that Gerion was in some ways challenged Tywin, likely with laughter itself at the very least.

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons unabridged:

Other children followed in good course, but Tywin, the eldest, was the only grandchild his lordship ever knew. In 244 AC, Gerold the Golden died of a bad bladder, unable to pass water. At the age of four-and-twenty, Tytos Lannister, his eldest surviving son, became Lord of Casterly Rock, Shield of Lannisport, and Warden of the West.

All were offices for which he was manifestly unsuited. Lord Tytos Lannister had many virtues. Slow to anger and quick to forgive, he saw good in every man, great or small, and was too trusting by half. He was dubbed the Laughing Lion for his jovial manner, and for a time the west laughed with him...but soon enough, more were laughing at him instead.

 

AFFC Jaime V (Genna speaking): "Was that all it was?" That seemed to sadden her. "Men say that Tywin never smiled, but he smiled when he wed your mother, and when Aerys made him Hand. When Tarbeck Hall came crashing down on Lady Ellyn, that scheming bitch, Tyg claimed he smiled then. And he smiled at your birth, Jaime, I saw that with mine own eyes. You and Cersei, pink and perfect, as alike as two peas in a pod . . . well, except between the legs. What lungs you had!"

"Hear us roar." Jaime grinned. "Next you'll be telling me how much he liked to laugh."

"No. Tywin mistrusted laughter. He heard too many people laughing at your grandsire."

WOIAF: Yet despite these accomplishments, Tywin Lannister was little loved. His rivals charged that he was humorless, unforgiving, unbending, proud, and cruel. His lords bannermen respected him and followed him loyally in war and peace, but none could truly be named his friends. Tywin despised his father, the weak-willed, fat, and ineffectual Lord Tytos Lannister, and his relations with his brothers Tygett and Gerion were notoriously stormy. He showed more regard for his brother Kevan, a close confidant and constant companion since childhood, and his sister Genna, but yet even in those cases, Tywin Lannister appeared more dutiful than affectionate.

ASOS Tyrion V: A queer time to come visiting. His mother had died giving him birth, so the Martells would have found the Rock deep in mourning. His father especially. Lord Tywin seldom spoke of his wife, but Tyrion had heard his uncles talk of the love between them. In those days, his father had been Aerys's Hand, and many people said that Lord Tywin Lannister ruled the Seven Kingdoms, but Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin. "He was not the same man after she died, Imp," his Uncle Gery told him once. "The best part of him died with her." Gerion had been the youngest of Lord Tytos Lannister's four sons, and the uncle Tyrion liked best.

But he was gone now, lost beyond the seas, and Tyrion himself had put Lady Joanna in her grave.

 

 

Tyrion killed Tywin’s wife Joanna in childbirth, and Gerion killed Tywin’s mother in childbirth. Tywin blamed Tyrion for the loss of Joanna. Did he also blame Gerion for the loss of their mother and the resulting further weakening of Tytos?  Was part of Tywin’s hatred of Tyrion for Joanna’s death part of lingering hatred for Gerion for their mother’s death? Gerion who killed his mother, is truly his father’s son with both being the Laughing Lion. Likewise, Genna tells Jaime that Tyrion who killed Joanna is truly Tywin’s son. Like his father Tytos, Tywin also never recovers from the loss of his wife. While Tytos turns to whoring to deal with his grief, Tywin proclaims a deep hatred of whores, not shared by Gerion. Was Gerion spiteful and full of envy, lust and low cunning as Tywin accuses Tyrion? Tywin accuses Gerion of low cunning when he uses a daggar to try to win the favor of Robert. So check for lust and low cunning. Genna hints that Tygett's and Gerion's competitveness with Tywin was a search for sun indicating something like spite and envy.
 

WOIAF: In 255 AC, Lord Tytos celebrated the birth of his fourth son at Casterly Rock, but his joy soon turned to sorrow. His beloved wife, the Lady Jeyne, never recovered from her labor, and died within a moon's turn of Gerion Lannister's birth. Her loss was a shattering blow to his lordship. From that day forth, no one ever again called him the Laughing Lion.

ASOS Tyrion I: Lord Tywin's eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. "Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never."

The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.

I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known. "Why?" he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question.

"You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

 

AFFC Jaime VII: "No more than I want Joy to marry the son of some scheming turncloak bitch. She deserves better." Jaime would happily have strangled the woman with her seashell necklace. Joy was a sweet child, albeit a lonely one; her father had been Jaime's favorite uncle.

 

ADWD Epilouge (Kevan Lannister)

It was not as if his brother had never done the same. In their father's final years, after their mother's passing, their sire had taken the comely daughter of a candlemaker as mistress. It was not unknown for a widowed lord to keep a common girl as bedwarmer … but Lord Tytos soon began seating the woman beside him in the hall, showering her with gifts and honors, even asking her views on matters of state. Within a year she was dismissing servants, ordering about his household knights, even speaking for his lordship when he was indisposed. She grew so influential that it was said about Lannisport that any man who wished for his petition to be heard should kneel before her and speak loudly to her lap … for Tytos Lannister's ear was between his lady's legs. She had even taken to wearing their mother's jewels.

Until the day their lord father's heart had burst in his chest as he was ascending a steep flight of steps to her bed, that is. All the self-seekers who had named themselves her friends and cultivated her favor had abandoned her quickly enough when Tywin had her stripped naked and paraded through Lannisport to the docks, like a common whore. Though no man laid a hand on her, that walk spelled the end of her power. Surely Tywin would never have dreamed that same fate awaited his own golden daughter.

 

ADWD Ceresei II

Cersei had been a year old when her grandfather died. The first thing her father had done on his ascension was to expel his own father's grasping, lowborn mistress from Casterly Rock. The silks and velvets Lord Tytos had lavished on her and the jewelry she had taken for herself had been stripped from her, and she had been sent forth naked to walk through the streets of Lannisport, so the west could see her for what she was.

Though she had been too young to witness the spectacle herself, Cersei had heard the stories growing up from the mouths of washerwomen and guardsmen who had been there. They spoke of how the woman had wept and begged, of the desperate way she clung to her garments when she was commanded to disrobe, of her futile efforts to cover her breasts and her sex with her hands as she hobbled barefoot and naked through the streets to exile. "Vain and proud she was, before," she remembered one guard saying, "so haughty you'd think she'd forgot she come from dirt. Once we got her clothes off her, though, she was just another whore."

 

 

 

Gerion had a lot of influence over Tyrion

and seemed to use it against Tywin at times.

 

The relationship between Tyrion and Gerion is warm and fuzzy if given a superficial look, but scratching beneath the surface, it loses some of its luster. Gerion would know that Tywin who hated laughter would despise his dwarf son acting like a court fool and that it would hurt the relationship between young Tyrion who desperately wanted the approval of his only parent. Yet he teaches Tyrion to act the fool anyhow. Tyrion recalls Gerion’s teachings and asks himself, “I liked that well enough, didn't I?” which seems to be a prompt to the reader to ask if Gerion truly had Tyrion’s best interests at heart here.  However, I do think that there’s an argument to be made that Gerion, a Lann the Clever-Laughing Lion trickster figure, was teaching Tyrion a Lannister tradition he wouldn’t ever get from Tywin.

Another passage which seems to ask us to take a closer look at the relationship between Gerion and Tyrion is when Gerion calls his nephew “Imp” in the same passage as Tyrion declaring him his favorite uncle. Calling a child and his nephew “imp” is odd and raises red flags about Gerion the good time favorite uncle. Tyrion tells Jon to make the bastard insult his own, so I have to wonder if he learned this from Gerion when Gerion referred to him as Imp. It would be an appropriate lesson from a Lann figure and is reinforced again when we learn that Gerion can do some gymnastics and taught this to Tyrion, to which Tywin responds “fool” and “monkey”. Implied below is that Tywin considered Gerion a fool and the spice lords and cheese kings is such an oddly specific reference that I have to think it's telling us that Gerion spent time with these and that Tywin was projecting Gerion onto Tyrion.

Also, we see below that Gerion is the source of Tyrion's fascination with Essos and longing to travel.

 

ASOS Tyrion V: A queer time to come visiting. His mother had died giving him birth, so the Martells would have found the Rock deep in mourning. His father especially. Lord Tywin seldom spoke of his wife, but Tyrion had heard his uncles talk of the love between them. In those days, his father had been Aerys's Hand, and many people said that Lord Tywin Lannister ruled the Seven Kingdoms, but Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin. "He was not the same man after she died, Imp," his Uncle Gery told him once. "The best part of him died with her." Gerion had been the youngest of Lord Tytos Lannister's four sons, and the uncle Tyrion liked best.

But he was gone now, lost beyond the seas, and Tyrion himself had put Lady Joanna in her grave.

 

ADWD Tyrion IV: The truth was rather different. His uncle had taught him a bit of tumbling when he was six or seven. Tyrion had taken to it eagerly. For half a year he cartwheeled his merry way about Casterly Rock, bringing smiles to the faces of septons, squires, and servants alike. Even Cersei laughed to see him once or twice.

All that ended abruptly the day his father returned from a sojourn in King's Landing. That night at supper Tyrion surprised his sire by walking the length of the high table on his hands. Lord Tywin was not pleased. "The gods made you a dwarf. Must you be a fool as well? You were born a lion, not a monkey."

 

ADWD Tyrion IX: He felt as if he were twelve again, cartwheeling across the supper table in Casterly Rock's great hall. Back then his uncle Gerion had been on hand to praise his efforts, in place of surly sailors. Their laughter seemed sparse and strained compared to the great gales that had greeted Groat's and Penny's antics at Joffrey's wedding feast, and some hissed at him in anger.

 

ADWD Tyrion III:

Come moonrise, they were back in their saddles, trotting eastward under a mantle of stars. The old Valyrian road glimmered ahead of them like a long silver ribbon winding through wood and dale. For a little while Tyrion Lannister felt almost at peace. "Lomas Longstrider told it true. The road's a wonder."

"Lomas Longstrider?" asked Duck.

"A scribe, long dead," said Haldon. "He spent his life traveling the world and writing about the lands he visited in two books he called Wonders and Wonders Made by Man."

"An uncle of mine gave them to me when I was just a boy," said Tyrion. "I read them until they fell to pieces."

"The gods made seven wonders, and mortal man made nine," quoted the Halfmaester. "Rather impious of mortal man to do the gods two better, but there you are. The stone roads of Valyria were one of Longstrider's nine. The fifth, I believe."

 

"The fourth," said Tyrion, who had committed all sixteen of the wonders to memory as a boy. His uncle Gerion liked to set him on the table during feasts and make him recite them. I liked that well enough, didn't I? Standing there amongst the trenchers with every eye upon me, proving what a clever little imp I was. For years afterward, he had cherished a dream that one day he would travel the world and see Longstrider's wonders for himself.

Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son's sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. "My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister," his father had replied. "Neither ever wed a whore." And when Tyrion had reminded him that in ten days he would be a man grown, free to travel where he wished, Lord Tywin had said, "No man is free. Only children (Tyrion) and fools (Gerion, who laughs) think elsewise. Go, by all means. Wear motley and stand upon your head to amuse the spice lords and the cheese kings. Just see that you pay your own way and put aside any thoughts of returning." At that the boy's defiance had crumbled. "If it is useful occupation you require, useful occupation you shall have," his father then said. So to mark his manhood, Tyrion was given charge of all the drains and cisterns within Casterly Rock. Perhaps he hoped I'd fall into one. But Tywin had been disappointed in that. The drains never drained half so well as when he had charge of them.

 

ADWD Tyrion VIII: "I know some sailors say that any man who lays eyes upon that coast is doomed." He did not believe such tales himself, no more than his uncle had. Gerion Lannister had set sail for Valyria when Tyrion was eighteen, intent on recovering the lost ancestral blade of House Lannister and any other treasures that might have survived the Doom. Tyrion had wanted desperately to go with them, but his lord father had dubbed the voyage a "fool's quest," and forbidden him to take part.

And perhaps he was not so wrong. Almost a decade had passed since the Laughing Lion headed out from Lannisport, and Gerion had never returned. The men Lord Tywin sent to seek after him had traced his course as far as Volantis, where half his crew had deserted him and he had bought slaves to replace them. No free man would willingly sign aboard a ship whose captain spoke openly of his intent to sail into the Smoking Sea. "So those are fires of the Fourteen Flames we're seeing, reflected on the clouds?"

 

In real life, people are very fascinated with dragons. Through the Stark kids’ POVs, we see that dragons are a big part of the imagination of Westerosi children. Tyrion was raised in the shadow of  Aerys and the Targaryens given Tywin’s position of Hand. This makes Tyrion’s request for a dragon almost expected and Tygett’s response indicates this. But that begs the question of why Gerion thinks this is so funny. My guess is that Tywin fashioned himself after the fire and blood Targaryens over the trickster fools of the Lannisters. Tyrion was like Tywin in that he wished for a dragon.

 

ADWD Tyrion II: When he was still a lonely child in the depths of Casterly Rock, he oft rode dragons through the nights, pretending he was some lost Targaryen princeling, or a Valyrian dragonlord soaring high o'er fields and mountains. Once, when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his nameday, he begged them for a dragon. "It wouldn't need to be a big one. It could be little, like I am." His uncle Gerion thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard, but his uncle Tygett said, "The last dragon died a century ago, lad." That had seemed so monstrously unfair that the boy had cried himself to sleep that night.

 

Below, we see that Gerion is also Jaime’s favorite uncle, so much so that Jaime feels extremely protective of Gerion’s bastard, Joy. Cersei makes no mention of Gerion, but we’re told that Cersei has always been unpleasant. This makes Gerion the favorite of children Tyrion and Jaime and we also see that Gerion spent a great deal of time with Joy. Like a fool/trickster, this may be hinting that Gerion was fond of children in general. 

 

AFFC Jaime VII: "No more than I want Joy to marry the son of some scheming turncloak bitch. She deserves better." Jaime would happily have strangled the woman with her seashell necklace. Joy was a sweet child, albeit a lonely one; her father had been Jaime's favorite uncle.

 

 

Did Gerion marry a whore and get disowned by Tywin?

 

When Tyrion seeks to see the world that Gerion introduced to him only to get turned down by Tywin, we get a reveal about Tywin and Gerion.

 

· Gerion set sail for Valyria when Tyrion was eighteen, but when Tyrion was sixteen, Tywin says “neither (of his brothers) ever wed a whore.” Gerion was still alive and thus Tywin’s use of neither doesn’t work as Tygett, Kevan and Gerion were all alive at this time. Kevan and Tygett never married a whore. Implied is that Gerion married a whore which isn't a terrible stretch given he fathered, cared for and loved his bastard daughter and young Tyrion had certain ideas about marrying Tysha which didn't fit his station making one wonder where he learned certain attitudes.

· Also implied here is that Tywin had disowned Gerion as he claims only two brothers, not three. But we know that Gerion was still part of the household at this time. Tywin has informally disowned his family before as we see with Jaime and Genna.

· This provides  a motive for why Gerion tried to win Robert’s favor with the dagger when Robert was also fond of whoring and had just lost a love in Lyanna and maybe this is why he sought Brightroar when Tywin wanted a Valyrian steel sword so badly.

·  Tywin has also threatened exile raising the question of whether Tywin threatened Gerion with exile if he didn't end a marriage to a whore: “Go, by all means. Wear motley and stand upon your head to amuse the spice lords and the cheese kings. Just see that you pay your own way and put aside any thoughts of returning."

 

ADWD Tyrion III: "The fourth," said Tyrion, who had committed all sixteen of the wonders to memory as a boy. His uncle Gerion liked to set him on the table during feasts and make him recite them. I liked that well enough, didn't I? Standing there amongst the trenchers with every eye upon me, proving what a clever little imp I was. For years afterward, he had cherished a dream that one day he would travel the world and see Longstrider's wonders for himself.

Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son's sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. "My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister," his father had replied. "Neither ever wed a whore." And when Tyrion had reminded him that in ten days he would be a man grown, free to travel where he wished, Lord Tywin had said, "No man is free. Only children (Tyrion) and fools (Gerion, who laughs) think elsewise. Go, by all means. Wear motley and stand upon your head to amuse the spice lords and the cheese kings. Just see that you pay your own way and put aside any thoughts of returning." At that the boy's defiance had crumbled. "If it is useful occupation you require, useful occupation you shall have," his father then said. So to mark his manhood, Tyrion was given charge of all the drains and cisterns within Casterly Rock. Perhaps he hoped I'd fall into one. But Tywin had been disappointed in that. The drains never drained half so well as when he had charge of them.

 

ADWD Tyrion VIII: "I know some sailors say that any man who lays eyes upon that coast is doomed." He did not believe such tales himself, no more than his uncle had. Gerion Lannister had set sail for Valyria when Tyrion was eighteen, intent on recovering the lost ancestral blade of House Lannister and any other treasures that might have survived the Doom. Tyrion had wanted desperately to go with them, but his lord father had dubbed the voyage a "fool's quest," and forbidden him to take part.

 

ASOS Tyrion IV: At long last, Father? Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone. It had always irked his father that none belonged to House Lannister. The old Kings of the Rock had owned such a weapon, but the greatsword Brightroar had been lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on his fool's quest. He had never returned; nor had Uncle Gery, the youngest and most reckless of his father's brothers, who had gone seeking after the lost sword some eight years past.

Thrice at least Lord Tywin had offered to buy Valyrian longswords from impoverished lesser houses, but his advances had always been firmly rebuffed. The little lordlings would gladly part with their daughters should a Lannister come asking, but they cherished their old family swords.

 

AFFC Jaime V: "Tired?" His aunt pursed her lips. "I suppose he has a right to be. It has been hard for Kevan, living all his life in Tywin's shadow. It was hard for all my brothers. That shadow Tywin cast was long and black, and each of them had to struggle to find a little sun. Tygett tried to be his own man, but he could never match your father, and that just made him angrier as the years went by. Gerion made japes. Better to mock the game than to play and lose. But Kevan saw how things stood early on, so he made himself a place by your father's side."

"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."

 

ASOS Jaime VII: "She can die a maiden as far as I'm concerned. I don't want her, and I don't want your Rock!"

"You are my son—"

"I am a knight of the Kingsguard. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard! And that's all I mean to be!"

Firelight gleamed golden in the stiff whiskers that framed Lord Tywin's face. A vein pulsed in his neck, but he did not speak. And did not speak. And did not speak.

The strained silence went on until it was more than Jaime could endure. "Father . . ." he began.

"You are not my son." Lord Tywin turned his face away. "You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty."

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I don't know if other people are encountering the same issues that I've been having reading long posts such as this one, but there's a whole chunk of it that's missing.

The post ends here for me @Lollygag;

The old Kings of the Rock had owned such a weapon, but the greatsword Brightroar had been lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on his fool's quest. He had never returned; nor had

[Lollygag]

4 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't know if other people are encountering the same issues that I've been having reading long posts such as this one, but there's a whole chunk of it that's missing.

The post ends here for me @Lollygag;

The old Kings of the Rock had owned such a weapon, but the greatsword Brightroar had been lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on his fool's quest. He had never returned; nor had

I'm showing the full post on my end but yeah, I also get problems with longer posts and also a lot of activity in succession makes the board go haywire for me. Here's the rest from the last section raising the question of whether Gerion married a whore and was in turn disowned by Tywin.

 

ASOS Tyrion IV: At long last, Father? Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone. It had always irked his father that none belonged to House Lannister. The old Kings of the Rock had owned such a weapon, but the greatsword Brightroar had been lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on his fool's quest. He had never returned; nor had Uncle Gery, the youngest and most reckless of his father's brothers, who had gone seeking after the lost sword some eight years past.

Thrice at least Lord Tywin had offered to buy Valyrian longswords from impoverished lesser houses, but his advances had always been firmly rebuffed. The little lordlings would gladly part with their daughters should a Lannister come asking, but they cherished their old family swords.

 

AFFC Jaime V: "Tired?" His aunt pursed her lips. "I suppose he has a right to be. It has been hard for Kevan, living all his life in Tywin's shadow. It was hard for all my brothers. That shadow Tywin cast was long and black, and each of them had to struggle to find a little sun. Tygett tried to be his own man, but he could never match your father, and that just made him angrier as the years went by. Gerion made japes. Better to mock the game than to play and lose. But Kevan saw how things stood early on, so he made himself a place by your father's side."

"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."

 

ASOS Jaime VII: "She can die a maiden as far as I'm concerned. I don't want her, and I don't want your Rock!"

"You are my son—"

"I am a knight of the Kingsguard. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard! And that's all I mean to be!"

Firelight gleamed golden in the stiff whiskers that framed Lord Tywin's face. A vein pulsed in his neck, but he did not speak. And did not speak. And did not speak.

The strained silence went on until it was more than Jaime could endure. "Father . . ." he began.

"You are not my son." Lord Tywin turned his face away. "You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty."

 

[Seams]

Great topic and an excellent use of excerpts as documentation.

There are a lot of vanishing uncles in the series, and Gerion is one of the most interesting.

There is a knight-fool duality in ASOIAF, with Florian the Fool as an archetype but Ser Dontos, Ser Duncan the Tall, Brienne, Penny and Groat and Tyrion all playing around with the contrast and connection between knights and fools. Gerion, as the laughing lion and as the man who tries to bring out the fool in Tyrion, seems to be part of this motif and it puts him at odds with Tywin (although I don't see Tywin identified strongly with the knight part of the archetype).

The laughing associated with Gerion may also be associated with House Baratheon or with specific members of the Baratheon line: Robert's ancestor during the Dunk & Egg era was known as the Laughing Storm.

As you point out, the Lann the Clever connection for Gerion may be a big part of the point for his inclusion in the story. I think there is a tension among the descendants of Lann the Clever, The Storm King and/or Durran Godsgrief, Garth Greenhand and Bran the Builder. My reading of Gerion giving Robert a dagger as a wedding gift is that it revisits a conflict between the Storm Lord and Lann the Clever. The handle of the dagger is ivory, which is derived from animal tusks. Eventually, Robert will be killed by an animal (boar) tusk. Was the dagger a foreshadowing of Cersei Lannister's role in assisting Robert to his death?

(The sapphire pommel on the dagger may be connected to the Jaime / Brienne relationship. Not sure how that relates back to Gerion, however.)

I have to admit, I also see a possible wordplay hint about the ivory / tusk weapon: Gerion seeks the sword Brightroar. Could there be a hint here about the right boar? The boar is the sigil of House Crakehall, Lannister bannermen. I suspect we are about to see some action from a Crakehall or two, particularly in connection with Gatehouse Ami. Boars are often present at the deaths of kings. The Lannister connection to boars could tell us that they are not shy about slaying kings.

GRRM plays around with balanced and divided forces: Tywin encouraging only Kevan and Gemma to remain close and not finding a way to maintain good relations with Tygett and Gerion may be a clue about an imbalance that becomes an Achilles Heel for Tywin. What are the qualities represented by Tygett and Gerion that could have served Tywin at strategic moments in his life? By contrast, why do Jaime and Tyrion both like Gerion so much?

But Gerion is a player in other balances and imbalances: marriages and pregnancies or offspring are important because they can bring about balance if done correctly, or imbalance if not thought through properly. Aside from marriage, alliances such as the relationship of Lord and bannerman, Lords and wards, or treaties between Houses can also create balance or imbalance. As you point out, Gerion provides commentary on the death of Joanna Lannister, a moment when Tywin lost his balancing force. And Gerion is the father of the only character in the series to be named Joy. Tywin saw Joy as a good pawn to use in creating an alliance with House Westerling; for personal reasons, Jaime does not see that as a good match at all.

There has to be a symbolic connection between Gerion's daughter, Joy Hill, and the Tower of Joy. Wish I knew what it was.

The other tension between Tywin and Gerion seems to be that Tywin, in spite of his years of service at King's Landing, is very oriented toward Casterly Rock while Gerion wants to travel. Joffrey taunts his grandfather by reminding him that he hid under Casterly Rock while King Robert was out fighting Robert's Rebellion. When Tywin throws a tournament in honor of Prince Viserys, he hosts it in Lannisport. He makes great efforts to divert Jaime back to Casterly Rock to assume the lordship and become head of the House. When he discourages Tyrion from traveling, he instead assigns him to oversee the sewers at Casterly Rock.

Tywin's use of the term "fool's quest" is significant both in underscoring Gerion's status as one of GRRM's fools but also because it is explicit about Gerion undertaking a quest (while Tywin shows contempt for such an effort). Jaime sends Brienne on a quest to find Catelyn Stark's daughters. Tyrion finally fulfills his dream of traveling like Gerion - is his sojourn a quest? I think it is. There is strong Odysseus imagery as Tyrion reaches Essos and he repeats his, "Where do whores go?" phrase as if it is the purpose for his journey. It is ironic that these words came from Tywin - in a way, Tywin has sent Tyrion on his quest even though he sees travel as a waste of time and money.

[Neddy's Girl]

@LollygagThank you for an interesting read - a great breakdown of an intriguing "missing" character that's made me hope to read more about him.

A Google search for "Gerion" comes up with this as the top result for me: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geryon  Could this have significance?  I find it interesting that George substitutes Y for I, particularly given his usual preference for the letter Y.  @Seams any wordplay here or just an accident?

(Sorry I'm late to the party, I just finished reading the post!)

[Narsil4]

Good read.

On 1/30/2020 at 3:52 AM, Lollygag said:

these ideas originated by taking a closer look at Brightroar

I've grown to suspect that Brightroar somehow fell into the hands of the Starks and was renamed Ice. 
Mostly due to the loss and acquisition seemingly happening at about the same time. 

There also seems like there might be some wordplay going on with the names. 
Bright = Oathkeeper  
Roar = Widow's Wail   

So I'd be interested to know if you have noticed anything that might be interpreted as a connection to the North. As I still have no idea how it could have ended up there..  

8 hours ago, Neddy's Girl said:

Geryon  Could this have significance?

It seems likely to me that the name is supposed to indicate a parallel to the version in Dante's Inferno.

Quote

Here, Geryon has become the Monster of Fraud, a beast with enormous dragon-like wings with the paws of a lion, the body of a wyvern, and a scorpion's poisonous sting at the tip of his tail, but with the face of an "honest man" (similar to a manticore).

Which might be interpreted in GRRM's lore as a type of Valyrian Sphinx. 

8 hours ago, Neddy's Girl said:

I find it interesting that George substitutes Y for I, particularly given his usual preference for the letter Y. 

I wonder if the switching of I and Y is supposed to represent the dual nature of Ice and Fire. 

So might this be true? 
I = Ice
Y = Fire

Perhaps suggesting that Gerion would have an association to Ice. 
As opposed to Geryon that might be considered to be associated to Fire. 

The combination of I and Y might even create something like an upside down peace symbol. 

[Seams]

10 hours ago, Neddy's Girl said:

A Google search for "Gerion" comes up with this as the top result for me: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geryon  Could this have significance? 

Nice find! It certainly fits with the Odysseus theme of Tyrion's travel interlude.

The things that strike me about the ancient mythological Geryon are the three heads (or three bodies) and the beast combination that goes with the griffin, sphinx, Dany's baby and other combo monsters in ASOIAF.

The three heads / bodies creates a nice parallel with "the dragon has three heads" phrase that seems so meaningful in Targaryen family lore. Does the lion also have three heads?

On board the Shy Maid, when Tyrion sews himself a suit that becomes a suit of motley (traditional fool's clothing), it has a vibe to me like these monsters that are a combination of paws, tails, wings, beaks, etc. Maybe Tyrion is "becoming" Gerion / Geryon during his travels? Hmmm. Not sure that works, though, if he is also Odysseus.

Quote

When Heracles reached Erytheia, no sooner had he landed than he was confronted by the two-headed dog, Orthrus. With one huge blow from his olive-wood club, Heracles killed the watchdog.

This might explain why Penny's dog is called Crunch.

[Lollygag]

10 hours ago, Narsil4 said:

I've grown to suspect that Brightroar somehow fell into the hands of the Starks and was renamed Ice. 
Mostly due to the loss and acquisition seemingly happening at about the same time. 

There also seems like there might be some wordplay going on with the names. 
Bright = Oathkeeper  
Roar = Widow's Wail   

So I'd be interested to know if you have noticed anything that might be interpreted as a connection to the North. As I still have no idea how it could have ended up there..  

Brightroar being Ice is a fun thought! What gives me pause though is that Ice is a huge ceremonial sword rather than a fighting sword hence why both Jaime and Joffrey are able to get full-sized fighting swords from Ice. If that was the case that they were the same, there'd have to have been some manipulation to the sword since we know Tommen took Brightroar to Valyria. I don't know why he'd take something as large as Ice when it wouldn't work for fighting.

Do we know when the original Ice was lost and the current Ice acquired?

The reason I was looking into Brightroar is my sword triangle idea:

Jaime, who should have Brightroar, and Brienne have Ice, now named Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. Both names are perfect for original owners Ned and Catelyn respectively. Even though Ice is in the hands of J&B, Ice still serves Stark as they are sworn to Catelyn, Sansa and Arya's safety, to not take up arms against Tully, and I'm assuming to LS soon.

Jon who should have Ice, now has Jeor Mormont's Longclaw. As Jon notes, Longclaw is a name suitable both for bears and wolves. Though Jon has Longclaw, it still serves Jeor Mormont because Jon is now LC.

So if Jorah who should have Longclaw ends up with Brightroar, it creates a triangle. Dany promised Jorah a VS steel sword and Brightroar is supposed to be in Valyria and Dany will be headed that way on the way back to Westeros. If she has another book to go before getting to Westeros, then a stopover in Valyria doesn't seem so unlikely. So if Jorah ends up with Brightroar and Tyrion and Jorah are tight, we might well see Jorah Mormont with it but it still being in service to Lannister via Tyrion's orders. Brightroar is a name suitable to Mormont and Lannister as bears and lions both roar. For Bright-, Lannisters are gold, and the NW is the light in the darkness...

Jon, Jaime and Jorah all have a lot of parallels with broken oaths, etc. Don't know if Brightroar will be the sword Dany promised Jorah, but I love the symmetry and themes around that!

 

About Geryon as portrayed in Dante's Inferno as opposed to his portrayal in the original Greek myths, the Lann the Clever/fool vibes really stand out. A fool in GRRM's world is a deceiver, often pretending to be simple, but is actually much smarter. This sounds like a variation of the honest face. The various animal components sound like motley. Lann is linked to fraud, so...This Geryon is bitter and there are hints that Gerion was envious which means someone had something he thought he should have. Very Lann. Per Genna, Tywin beat Gerion though Gerion tried to not play when he thought he might lose - implying that he may not be very good at the game as Tywin implies and this Geryon isn't so good at it either apparently.

The honest Face of Fraud fits with being a creature of uncertain origin. It especially works for Westeros where one's sigil and colors hopefully give away one's true loyalty (nature). Being of indeterminate nature with so many parts is perhaps the physical manifestation of deceit as to one's true nature like motley. Lannisters are beautiful, but as Roose said, "My lady, has no one told you? Lannisters lie." Fraud.

On the side, under the sea and underworlds - sounds like Patchface!

http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/circle7.html

Quote

Geryon (16-17)
 

 
Geryon, merely described in Virgil's Aeneid as a "three-bodied shade" (he was a cruel king slain by Hercules), is one of Dante's most complex creatures. With an honest face, a colorful and intricately patterned reptilian hide, hairy paws, and a scorpion's tail, Geryon is an image of fraud (Inf. 17.7-27)--the realm to which he transports Dante and Virgil (circles 8 and 9). Strange as he is, Geryon offers some of the best evidence of Dante's attention to realism. The poet compares Geryon's upward flight to the precise movements of a diver swimming to the surface of the sea (Inf. 16.130-6), and he helps us imagine Geryon's descent by noting the sensation of wind rising from below and striking the face of a traveler in flight (Inf. 17.115-17). By comparing Geryon to a sullen, resentful falcon (Inf. 17.127-36), Dante also adds a touch of psychological realism to the episode: Geryon may in fact be bitter because he was tricked--when Virgil used Dante's knotted belt to lure the monster (Inf. 16.106-23)--into helping the travelers. Dante had used this belt--he informs us long after the fact (Inf. 16.106-8)--to try to capture the colorfully patterned leopard who impeded his ascent of the mountain in Inferno 1.31-3.
 
Suggestively associated with the sort of factual truth so wondrous that it appears to be false (Inf. 16.124), Geryon is thought by some readers to represent the poem itself or perhaps a negative double of the poem.

 

AFFC Prologue

"Is this a riddle?" Roone wanted to know. "Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales."

AFFC Samwell V

"The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler," he blurted. "Do you know what that means?"

 

Geryon is portrayed in different ways, but Dante's Geryon makes me wonder if sphinx isn't supposed to be equated with motley. It certainly works better with riddles. A sphinx and a motley-wearer both tell riddles. But looking at a motley-wearer and an animal of indeterminate nature - the Face of Fraud - then he becomes a riddle himself. What this might have to do with Gerion, I have no idea. While this all seems quite relevant to the Lann the Clever type, it doesn't point much towards Gerion specifically beyond Gerion also being a Lann-type.

[Lollygag]

On 1/30/2020 at 8:22 PM, Seams said:

There has to be a symbolic connection between Gerion's daughter, Joy Hill, and the Tower of Joy. Wish I knew what it was.

The ToJ involved a man's love dying in childbirth with things going disastrously wrong from there. Tytos the Laughing Lion also lost his love in childbirth which nearly cost them Casterly Rock. Perhaps like the former Laughing Lion, Gerion's Joy also turned to sorrow?

WOIAF: In 255 AC, Lord Tytos celebrated the birth of his fourth son at Casterly Rock, but his joy soon turned to sorrow. His beloved wife, the Lady Jeyne, never recovered from her labor, and died within a moon's turn of Gerion Lannister's birth. Her loss was a shattering blow to his lordship. From that day forth, no one ever again called him the Laughing Lion.

 

[Narsil4]

21 hours ago, Seams said:

Does the lion also have three heads?

Dragons and lions are often both symbolic of kingship and I suspect the 3 Heads represent 3 Kings. 

So I would imagine that the 3 Heads could be represented as Dragons or Lions. 
Or at the very least the Lion might make up a piece of the Dragon, similar to a Sphinx.

I found the lyrics of this song pretty interesting. 

Quote

The lion has three heads
And someone will eat the skin that he sheds

 

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

What gives me pause though is that Ice is a huge ceremonial sword rather than a fighting sword hence why both Jaime and Joffrey are able to get full-sized fighting swords from Ice.

Ice and Brightroar are both described as greatswords. So I imagine they would be of similar size. 

I don't think it would be right to consider them just ceremonial.
As even Dawn is a greatsword and they seem to be used fairly regularly in the series. 

Quote

Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder.

It also seems like there might be a beheading parallel between Ice and Brightroar.

Quote

Lancel IV is said to have beheaded the ironborn king Harrald Halfdrowned and his heir with a single stroke of the Valyrian steel greatsword Brightroar at the Battle of Lann's Point; he later died in battle at Red Lake whilst attempting to invade the Reach.

 

10 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Do we know when the original Ice was lost and the current Ice acquired?

The sword timeline seems to look something like this.. 

5000-8000 yrs ago - Battle for the Dawn, Ice: Stark => Dawn: Dayne 
500 yrs ago - Brightroar: Lannister,  Heartsbane: Tarly, ??Blackfyre/Dark Sister: Targaryan?? 
400 yrs ago - Brightroar: Lannister => Ice: Stark
2 yrs ago - Blackfyre: Found when the LC's Tower burned => Longclaw: Snow
1 yrs ago - Ice: Stark => Oathkeeper/Widow's Wail: Lannister

10 hours ago, Lollygag said:

makes me wonder if sphinx isn't supposed to be equated with motley.

Oh, interesting thought. That makes quite a bit of sense. I suspect you would be correct. 

 

 

[Lollygag]

33 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

Ice and Brightroar are both described as greatswords. So I imagine they would be of similar size. 

I don't think it would be right to consider them just ceremonial.
As even Dawn is a greatsword and they seem to be used fairly regularly in the series. 

Eh, I just can't go with that. Ice is taller than 14 year old Robb who is never described as short and as tall as Ilyn Payne who is likewise never described as excessively short. It's as wide across as a man's hand and two full-sized fighting swords were made from it. Think only people like the Hound or Gregor could actually use something that big in a fight.

AGOT Bran I

Lord Eddard Stark dismounted and his ward Theon Greyjoy brought forth the sword. "Ice," that sword was called. It was as wide across as a man's hand, and taller even than Robb. The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.

ACOK Sansa V

He wore a long hauberk of oiled black mail, and held his sword before him: her father's greatsword, Ice, near as tall as he was. Its point rested on the floor, and his hard bony fingers curled around the crossguard on either side of the grip. Sansa's breath caught in her throat. Ser Ilyn Payne seemed to sense her stare. He turned his gaunt, pox-ravaged face toward her.

[Narsil4]

34 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Think only people like the Hound or Gregor could actually use something that big in a fight.

Gregor might be able to wield a normal greatsword with one hand..

Quote

He was pointing men into position with his blade, a two-handed greatsword that Ser Gregor waved about with one hand as a lesser man might wave a dagger.

Quote

He fights with a two-handed greatsword, but needs only one hand to wield it.

Valyrian Steel seems to be lighter than normal. 

Quote

Yet the wolf sword actually seemed lighter than the blades he had wielded before. 

So it might be reasonable to assume, a normal person wielding a lighter VS greatsword, would be able to wield it with the same ease as Gregor does a normal heavier one. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

Gerion didn't have to marry a whore. He has a natural daughter, Joy Hill, by a commoner named Briony. I don't know why Tywin would disown his brother for it though. 

[Lollygag]

1 minute ago, Narsil4 said:

Gregor might be able to wield a normal greatsword with one hand..

Valyrian Steel seems to be lighter than normal. 

So it might be reasonable to assume, a normal person wielding a lighter VS greatsword, would be able to wield it with the same ease as Gregor does a normal heavier one. 

I'm still just not sold. Too many maybes and we're all but outright told Ice is atypical from the rest. I have to assume Brightroar is more of a typical vs sword unless there are hints otherwise.

 

[Lollygag]

5 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Gerion didn't have to marry a whore. He has a natural daughter, Joy Hill, by a commoner named Briony. I don't know why Tywin would disown his brother for it though. 

We're not sure about Briony's fate so I don't know if she would have been the one he married or if it was someone else. Tywin's hatred of whores (goes back to Ellyn Reyne and the whore who had too much control over his father and we saw the extent of the hatred through Tysha) might have had him make sure Gerion's marriage was fixed like Tyrion's. Maybe Joy Hill was born legit and it was undone. Or not.

Tywin connects marrying whores to keeping Tyrion from going to Essos, so I'm thinking Gerion's marriage to a whore is connected to his trips there.

[Narsil4]

46 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Ice is taller than 14 year old Robb who is never described as short and as tall as Ilyn Payne who is likewise never described as excessively short.

We get the length of a greatsword Gregor uses. I imagine the other greatswords would be similar. 

Quote

If Ser Gregor was suffering from wounds, Tyrion could see no sign of it from across the yard. He looks as though he was chiseled out of rock, standing there. His greatsword was planted in the ground before him, six feet of scarred metal.

 

21 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

we're all but outright told Ice is atypical from the rest.

What do you see as being atypical about it?  

It seemed like a fairly generic VS greatsword, until it was reforged and couldn't be fully recolored. 

[Lollygag]

Just now, Narsil4 said:

We get the length of a greatsword Gregor uses. I imagine the other greatswords would be similar. 

 

What do you see as being atypical about it?  

It seemed like a fairly generic VS greatsword, until it was reforged and couldn't be fully recolored. 

The descriptions above strongly indicate that Ice is exceptionally large and two Jaime- and Joffrey-worthy swords were made from it. If there are descriptions of the other vs swords of Westeros being as large as Ice, I've missed them.

I don't take all greatswords to be of similar size as we know they vary in sizing. Daggers are different sizes. Jaime's and Joff's swords are described as different sizes. More assumptions.

[Narsil4]

47 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

The descriptions above strongly indicate that Ice is exceptionally large

They just seem to be describing and comparing Ice to the height of other characters.
I don't see an implication that Ice is large for a greatsword. 

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

It was as wide across as a man's hand, and taller even than Robb.

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

He wore a long hauberk of oiled black mail, and held his sword before him: her father's greatsword, Ice, near as tall as he was.

With this piece of information.. 

57 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

His greatsword was planted in the ground before him, six feet of scarred metal.

The indication seems to be that Robb is under 6ft and Payne is over 6ft. 

47 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Jaime's and Joff's swords are described as different sizes.

Since GRRM gives us a specific number for the size of a greatsword, I'm thinking it makes sense to go with that number, until we are told otherwise.  

In the same sense I would consider all longswords to be generally the same, unless we are told that one is specifically different. Like Widow's Wail. 

[Lollygag]

22 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

They just seem to be describing and comparing Ice to the height of other characters.
I don't see an implication that Ice is large for a greatsword. 

With this piece of information.. 

The indication seems to be that Robb is under 6ft and Payne is over 6ft. 

Since GRRM gives us a specific number for the size of a greatsword, I'm thinking it makes sense to go with that number, until we are told otherwise.  

In the same sense I would consider all longswords to be generally the same, unless we are told that one is specifically different. Like Widow's Wail. 

I just disagree with these interpretations.

There was a recent thread on Ice with the following included.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/156248-how-did-ice-pass-from-lord-rickard-to-eddard-stark/

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Stockholm_and_Archipelacon_Report

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2) Asked if Ned ever used Ice in battle. George points out it was a greatsword, very large and cumbersome, a ceremonial sword for beheading people more than a fighting sword, so he suggests that it was "probably too heavy and clumsy" to use unless you're the Mountain. So, I think that's a pretty clear "no". I admit, I was tempted to point out that it was Valyrian steel, not regular steel, so why would the weight matter so much in this case? In particular when the likes of Randyll Tarly and Arthur Dayne are clearly said to have used their own Valyrian/Valyrian-like swords in battle? Tarly is not described as particularly powerful -- in fact he's called lean (doubtless strong and fit, but still, lean) -- and we're told he killed Lord Cafferen with Heartsbane. So... I take this as a firm "no", Ned never used it in battle, but I think George's off-the-cuff explanation doesn't quite fit the facts.

 

[Narsil4]

30 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

probably too heavy and clumsy

Kinda sounds like a maybe and there do seem to be clear examples of the opposite. 

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Rattleshirt took off his yellowed helm as he waited for the song to end. Beneath his bone-and-leather armor he was a small man

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The Lord of Bones gave as good as he was getting. By rights the two-handed greatsword should have been a deal more cumbersome than Jon's longsword, but the wildling wielded it with blinding speed.