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CassDarry

How does Ned know Lyanna is at the Tower of Joy?

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9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Umm, no it does.  The dream specifically indicates that the last part of the dream is Lyanna in her bed of blood.  Just because the text doesn’t describe the bed of blood, it does describe Lyanna speaking to Ned and Ned whispering his promise to her in return.  We know his promise occurred to her while she lay in her bed of blood.  So the scene either shifts or you have to believe that her bed of blood lay outside the tower with the Knights.  So the scene either shifts to inside the tower or it shifts somewhere else.

There's no "scene" there. There just voices as Ned fades to black. He isn't "talking" with Lyanna in a scene.

Quote

 

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!"1 she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
"Lord Eddard,"2 Lyanna called again.
"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise …"3
"Lord Eddard,"4 a man echoed from the dark.

 


1. As they come together, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Lord Eddard" she called. This is still inside the ToJ scene. I agree with you that this is probably already Vayon Poole's voice intruding from outside, and Ned's fevered mind giving it to Lyanna (probably because he knows she's present, perhaps she did scream as they fought, though I doubt it)
2. Lyanna calls again. This is not a scene shift, He is not present with Lyanna, she's calling which is not how you talk to someone present. I'm certain this is Vayon Poole again actually and Ned is still at the ToJ scene though its fading away now.
3. Ned reacts. This is not a scene change with him beside her bed whispering to her. This is Ned's "now" (but still in the dreamstate) reaction to hearing her call him. There is no 'scene' information. There is not a single indication he's recalling an event of actually talking to her. And this is all happening within a single breath or so - Vayon trying to wake him with repeated calls etc. 
4. This is definitely Vayon Poole. The original ToJ scene has now faded to dark completely and Ned begins to wake.

There is zero evidence or indication of a scene shift. Just one scene, quickly fading to darkness.

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree that Poole’s voice is bleeding into Ned’s dream, just like Lyanna’s screaming for Ned could be the two scenes bleeding together in the dream.  Specifically it bleeds into the last part of Ned’s dream, which is already described as Lyanna in her bed of blood.  But while still in the dream Ned is in his cryptic conversation with Lyanna, which occurs at the bed of blood, which we know both from Ned’s memory and from the description given of the actual dream.  Ned does not wake up to Poole after the “storm of petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death”.  Instead in his dream he is having his last conversation with Lyanna.

I don't think there is any indication that this is so. There is definitely no indication of a scene change, definitely Lyanna is never 'present' with him when 'she' calls. The best you have is Ned's whispered thought of a promise, which isn;t even an actual promise, since its empty of substance. This is just Ned's reaction to Lyanna's call to him in the dream.

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Seriously, you guys are trying to treat this fevered dream way too literally.  Like it is an actual verbatim memory of Ned’s.  But it’s not.  GRRM specifically warns not to take the dream too literally, because it is a fever dream.

Thats a lie.

GRRM said "Our dreams are not always literal."

Sometimes they are, sometimes they are in part, and sometimes they are not.

Its also an absolute deflection. The point is that Ned's mind gave the dream a description, a label. It was an old dream, so although there may be fever elements in it, its not just a fever dream. Its a recognised, labelled, old dream.
In this case, this dream can be filed in the cubicle marked "Lyanna in her bed of blood/3 knights in white cloaks/tower long fallen". Perhaps that differentiates it from another memory/dream labelled "Lyanna in her bed of blood/promises/Lyanna's death" or something similar - just as an example.

The 'label' has nothing to do with the fever and is independent of the specific contents we saw, which may be fever - affected.

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

We can confirm the parts of the dream that lines up with Ned’s memory.  In fact the text of the dream specifically lets us know two parts of the dream that are as they happened in life:

 

But that’s the only two instances of the dream that were confirmed to be as they had happened in life.  Which also implies that other parts of the dream were not as they happened in life.  

There is no such implication

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Now Ned’s memory already confirms that this battle occurred at the tower of joy.  What Ned’s memory never confirms is that Lyanna was the one inside the tower.  So her scream for Eddard heard over the battle or his conversation with her taking place in the immediate aftermath of the battle could very well be artifacts of the fever dream, and not a memory.

The scream, yes. I think its an artifact of Vayon Pool's voice intruding, rather than the fever, but it could also be a true memory or a fever-muddled memory of something else. 

But there is no 'conversation'.

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

He is clearly associating the two events together (the battle with the kingsguards at the tower and Lyanna in her bed of blood).  Now that could be as you suggest because they happened at the same time and location, or it could be linked for another reason (i.e. the promise from Lyanna to Ned was specifically tied into the reason Ned travelled to the tower of joy and his battle with the Kingsguard).

No. Ned tells us explicitly that the dream is about Lyanna in her bed of blood. If she is not there at the tower then the dream is not about her in her bed of blood at all, its about a different memory entirely, the battle where all his friends died.

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17 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

So do you lean towards the Tower of Joy or indeed the Prince's Pass being part of Rhaegar's plan/ritual for the birth of the PtwP/third head of the dragon or is it just a place Rhaegar liked to go and just happened to be the place Jon would be born?

Honestly, I don't now. It would largely depend on the particular layout of the land and ability to be supplied, I guess. If the tower is situated well off the road, it might be a good hideout because no-one ever goes there and you have a view for miles and miles to see who's travelling, you just need to keep a low profile and make fire only at night so that the smoke doesn't draw attention. It would be virtually like, the darkest under the candlestick.

However... an even better hideout would be just like in Ygritte's story - right where the Stark daughter disappeared from, which would be Harrenhal or its vicinity, like the Isle of Faces. Summerhall would be the next choice, I guess.

17 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Ned did say he expected to find the kingsguard at Storm's

That conversation is, IMHO, the most unreliable part of the dream. It is very conscise, very impactful piece of writing - people normally don't talk like that. It is possible that it was written solely for the benefit of the reader - listing all the places where the KG had legitimate business, to make us wonder what the heck they were doing there, being so determined about it.

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m just suggesting that it’s awfully perilous to treat the fevered dream as a memory.  And Eddard hearing Lyanna scream during the height of battle (yet nothing during their conversation with the Kingsguard) seems awfully wonky.  It’s also odd that she would have referred to him as Eddard, especially since it appears that in Eddard’s memory she always calls him Ned.  My guess is Poole was bleeding into the dream even before the “Lord Eddard” part of the dream.  Until Lyanna’s place is confirmed in someone’s actual memory, the fevered dream is an unreliable source to assume she’s in the tower.

It is certainly not as reliable as a memory and the Eddard part is definitely the voice of Vayon Poole - however, the connection is established through Ned's responses. First, he states that the KG, the tower and Lyanna "in her bed of blood" belong together, that he had dreamt such dreams before. Next, when he hears someone utter his name with urgency in that situation, his subconsciousness automatically connects it to Lyanna. Third, his response to "Lyanna" in this situation is "I promise", which we do know from his memories is the response he gave her on her deathbed. - In other words, the fight with the KG at TOJ has a strong connection to Lyanna's death. Furthermore, the dream contains all the elements present in his memory of Lyanna's last moments in a room that smelled of blood and roses - there is blood-streaked sky, there is a storm of (blue) rose petals, and he says "I promise" - that imply that's the place.

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The small amount of companions, and companions who would have little to no ties with the Southern part of the Rebellion’s army, suggests that from the outset Eddard is treating this mission as a secret from the newly crowned king Robert.  Eddard is going with people he can implicitly trust to keep a secret.  A rescue mission for Lyanna should not have created a need for such secrecy.  (But a rescue mission for Lyanna’s child, on the other hand, would have to be kept a secret especially from Robert).

Agreed.

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Assuming that Eddard rescued baby Jon from the tower, it becomes increasingly strange that he would have risked the infant in a journey through the Red Mountains (in enemy territory) to a castle also within enemy territory for sole reason of returning a sword no matter how sharp a sword it was.

Dawn could have been returned in any number of ways, where Eddard would not have had to put himself (or any infant in his care) at risk.  Instead it implies that there may have been something else of far greater significance that Eddard needed to return to someone at Starfall.

I think the evidence suggests (and not disputed by the appendix) that the real reason Eddard may have had to return to Starfall was to bring Jon to Lyanna.

I agree that Ned absolutely didn't have to deliver Dawn to Starfall in person but there are other options. First, it is not Lyanna who is at Starfall, Jon is, and the promise that Lyanna extracted was to go and claim Jon (in this scenario, the KG have to remain at ToJ not to draw attention to the reason of their being at Starfall, they protect Lyanna and prevent anyone from finding out she had a baby). Second, neither is at Starfall but Ned needs a pretext not to return to KL directly and he must keep Jon secret, so he takes a trip to return Dawn, so that he could hire a ship to send Jon North, while he himself travels to KL to report Lyanna's death to Robert, and no-one sees him with a baby.

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

This also explains why Lyanna’s body was not buried in the desert with the rest of Ned’s companions.  She was never there in the first place.

No need for special explanations, we know that Lyanna asked to be buried at Winterfell, so Ned didn't really have a choice in this.

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On 2/1/2020 at 1:12 AM, Dothraki Khal said:

The squire.  The one who was shown the king's mercy.  He shared the dungeon with Brandon.  Ashara is theorized to have visited the dungeon and was the former lover of Brandon.  The visit involved bribery and the two had sex.  She would know the whereabouts of the tower.  

Ethan Glover? 

Thats a possibility but why would Ashara Dayne know where Rheagar and Lyanna are? Isn’t she Princess Elia’s lady? I suppose Ser Arthur could of but doesn’t that go against his Kingsguard oaths?

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On 1/31/2020 at 3:47 PM, EvanSol919 said:

Perhaps Varys told him in order to secure his pardon. I find it hard to believe that Varys did not know where the crown prince and 3 members of the kingsguard including the lord commander were. 

Oh yeah 

Varys has to do something to not only gain a pardon but keep his council seat.

Especially if his plan is to bring a Blackfyre Targaryen to the Throne

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On 1/31/2020 at 5:42 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

 

 Yeah, most like. She was a lady in waiting for Elia, present at HH during the crowning of Lyanna of blue roses. Do we know if she was present at KL when Gregor came to town? She must of been close.

If Ashara was Elia’s Lady in Waiting why would she know where the cheating Husband and Mistress is?

and why would she tell Ned as she must know it would bring conflict between Arthur and him. One of suspected reasons she “killed herself” was because Arthur died. 

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On 2/2/2020 at 11:29 PM, Frey family reunion said:

.

A better question for the OP and a more exact one is what led Eddard to the tower of joy period.
 

Very true actually but I never separated into two different dreams I thought the three indicators were for one dream 

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On 2/3/2020 at 1:43 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Umm, no it does.  The dream specifically indicates that the last part of the dream is Lyanna in her bed of blood.  Just because the text doesn’t describe the bed of blood, it does describe Lyanna speaking to Ned and Ned whispering his promise to her in return.  We know his promise occurred to her while she lay in her bed of blood.  So the scene either shifts or you have to believe that her bed of blood lay outside the tower with the Knights.  So the scene either shifts to inside the tower or it shifts somewhere else.

I agree that Poole’s voice is bleeding into Ned’s dream, just like Lyanna’s screaming for Ned could be the two scenes bleeding together in the dream.  Specifically it bleeds into the last part of Ned’s dream, which is already described as Lyanna in her bed of blood.  But while still in the dream Ned is in his cryptic conversation with Lyanna, which occurs at the bed of blood, which we know both from Ned’s memory and from the description given of the actual dream.  Ned does not wake up to Poole after the “storm of petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death”.  Instead in his dream he is having his last conversation with Lyanna.

Seriously, you guys are trying to treat this fevered dream way too literally.  Like it is an actual verbatim memory of Ned’s.  But it’s not.  GRRM specifically warns not to take the dream too literally, because it is a fever dream.

We can confirm the parts of the dream that lines up with Ned’s memory.  In fact the text of the dream specifically lets us know two parts of the dream that are as they happened in life:

 

But that’s the only two instances of the dream that were confirmed to be as they had happened in life.  Which also implies that other parts of the dream were not as they happened in life.  Now Ned’s memory already confirms that this battle occurred at the tower of joy.  What Ned’s memory never confirms is that Lyanna was the one inside the tower.  So her scream for Eddard heard over the battle or his conversation with her taking place in the immediate aftermath of the battle could very well be artifacts of the fever dream, and not a memory.

He is clearly associating the two events together (the battle with the kingsguards at the tower and Lyanna in her bed of blood).  Now that could be as you suggest because they happened at the same time and location, or it could be linked for another reason (i.e. the promise from Lyanna to Ned was specifically tied into the reason Ned travelled to the tower of joy and his battle with the Kingsguard).

So are you suggesting he found Lyanna(presumably at Starfall?) who made Ned promise to get to “Jon” from the Tower of Joy and then he “returned” Dawn to Starfall in pretence to get “Jon” back to Lyanna?

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On 2/3/2020 at 2:03 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't think there's any reason to believe that the dream did not happen the way it did with the Kingsguard, with Lyanna. The opening sentence of Ned's dream is the exact same one GRRM uses for Cersei's dream of Maggy the Frog. The structure of both dreams is the exact same, the words he uses are very similar and I think it's really worth looking at the two dreams side by side.  

The opening line for Ned's dream;

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

The opening line for Cersei's dream;

She dreamt an old dream, of three girls in brown cloaks, a wattled crone, and a tent that smelled of death.

And there's more after the opening lines that are practically the same and I don't think it's a coincidence that it was done this way. For instance, Cersei says that they looked for Maggy's tent for a long while before they managed to find it. By the time they did, the torches were guttering out. 

This could give us the idea that Ned and his companions looked for the ToJ for a long while before they managed to find it. By the time they found it, Lyanna was dying (and Kevan Lannister compared her to a burning torch in his private thoughts).

Cersei's dream has the prophecy right near the end, and I think the rose petals blowing across the blood-streaked as blue as the eye of death coupled with Arthur unsheathing Dawn is part prophecy. 

Cersei in her dream compares Maggy's squinty yellow eyes to the eye of death, right before her dream changes completely and turns to the valonqar and Tyrion wrapping his fingers around her neck.

Anyway, you get the gist of it. I think there's a lot to unpack when we start drawing parallels between the two dreams.

I didn’t even notice that the two dreams are written basically the same! It’s interesting to think why he chose to do this 

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On 2/3/2020 at 5:41 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

.

I must say though, I wonder if the baby was still there when Ned arrived or was the baby being nursed in Starfall by then?

That makes sense as explain why Ned went on to Startfall but what would your theory be for why Ashara jumped? Was she killed for Jon? 

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On 2/3/2020 at 6:48 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think they headed to Dragonstone after Harrenhal. Aegon was born there, we know that Rhaegar was there and at the very least Jon Connington from his own recollection of Rhaegar being told that Elia would not have anymore children. 

I think they were staying at the castle of some loyal lord (I'm thinking House Lonmouth here. We don't know the exact location of the castle, but I'm thinking that it could be near or in the Marches). When news came down about the Trident, the Sack and what happened at Storm's End, they decided they had to go somewhere safer and make plans from there, so they begin their trek to Starfall, which is the place that makes the most sense, 

Them being holed up at the tower for months boggles the mind.

It definitely boggles the mind then staying there at all if not because they had to because of circumstances.

Why does Starfall make the most sense? Lyanna wasn’t Dornish and surely Rhaegar isn’t the Daynes favourite at the moment.

Does Jon Connington recall that she can’t? I think I remember that he didn’t think highly of her but can’t recall the exact text

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6 minutes ago, CassDarry said:

Why does Starfall make the most sense? Lyanna wasn’t Dornish and surely Rhaegar isn’t the Daynes favourite at the moment.

Lyanna is not Dornish, that's true. But for however long she was at the tower, it doesn't seem like anyone went to bother her there.

I think it's in this thread that I pointed to Sarella telling the other acolytes in the prologue of AFfC "the dragon has three heads." I think this is important because until she uttered that line, only the Undying, Rhaegar, Dany and Maester Aemon said it. I don't count Jorah because the creeper was trying to manipulate Dany into marrying him.

Where else could Sarella have found out about this but from her father? 

I think her saying what she said is extremely important to what the Martells knew.

11 minutes ago, CassDarry said:

 Does Jon Connington recall that she can’t? I think I remember that he didn’t think highly of her but can’t recall the exact text

This is the quote;

A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar's wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon's birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward. (The Griffin Reborn, ADwD 61)

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On 2/3/2020 at 9:06 AM, Frey family reunion said:

I think we have to assume that the round tower the knights are in front of, is the tower of joy, because Ned’s memory confirms it.  I don’t even know if Lyanna was in a tower at all.  The actual locale is never described in Ned’s memories of her.  Now going off of the appendix, Lyanna died in the Red Mountains of Dorne.  Now the appendix is probably not an example of the omniscient narrator, because it also lists Jon as Ned’s son, but it has to be based on something doesn’t it?

So for this reason and for the reason that Ned makes an unusual decision to travel to Starfall castle after the battle, my suspicion is that Lyanna could very well have been at Starfall castle and Ned was perhaps returning something to her...

You're twisting yourself into knots to try and be a contrarian IMO.  The dream clearly indicates that Lyanna was present at the tower.....yes, the dream is a fever dream, but he clearly indicates that he's dreamed it before when not in a fevered state.  

 

Lyanna being at the tower is almost a certainty.  He went to Starfall to return Dawn to the Daynes, not to give Lyanna anything.  Lyanna isn't buried at TOJ because Eddard loved her too much and wanted to take her bones back to Winterfell.  It's pretty simple and not everything is a misdirection.

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15 hours ago, CassDarry said:

That makes sense as explain why Ned went on to Startfall but what would your theory be for why Ashara jumped? Was she killed for Jon? 

Let me just say that I think the 3 KG's presence at the ToJ means it is most likely that the baby was there too. In this scenario returning Dawn to House Dayne was probably enough motive for Ned's trip to Starfall. However, as I firmly believe that Arthur survived the ToJ and took the black, I think there are other factors that compelled Ned to go there.

To be honest, I don't know what to make of Ashara's situation. I think she was part of Rhaegar's inner circle. I wonder if she was at the ToJ, perhaps as a female companion for Lyanna? If Lyanna gave birth at the tower and was too unwell to travel, then perhaps Ashara took the baby to Starfall while the KG remained at the tower with Lyanna. An interesting and indeed tragic aspect to all this is the rumor that Ashara had recently lost a baby herself. If Ashara bonded with Lyanna's child and then Ned arrived at Starfall to take the child back to Winterfell, then maybe it was too much for Ashara so she took her own life. But the Daynes seem to have had respect for Ned, so I doubt Ashara took her life over something Ned did. My gut says she didn't kill herself at all, which suggests one of the assumed identity theories like Septa Lemore or Howland's wife or whoever would be true, but I don't know which one, if any. :dunno:

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7 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

the rumor that Ashara had recently lost a baby herself.

Selmy being haunted by Dany's eyes in the context of Ashara, seems to suggest she might be Dany's mother.

With a past Dany having a twin brother, the current one may also have a twin. 
Which I suspect may have been the child killed in place of Elia's Aegon(YG). 

Edited by Narsil4

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23 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think it's in this thread that I pointed to Sarella telling the other acolytes in the prologue of AFfC "the dragon has three heads." I think this is important because until she uttered that line, only the Undying, Rhaegar, Dany and Maester Aemon said it. I don't count Jorah because the creeper was trying to manipulate Dany into marrying him.

Where else could Sarella have found out about this but from her father? 

I think its probably a widely, virtually universally, known thing. Its just that with the Dragons gone, there's very little contextual relevance for current characters to be mentioning that. And when the dragons were in power, again, there was very little (probably GRRM could have worked it in if he wanted do, but I think the stuff he's written hasn't needed that) contextual relevance for them to be bringing that 'well known thing' up in conversation.

Jorah using it for 'creeping' doesn't invalidate the fact that he knows of it.
I think everyone knows "the dragon has three heads". Its the public symbol of the Targaryen House. I just don't  think its a relevantly important 'thing' that most people think about. Until the right contextual moment comes about (for them).

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53 minutes ago, corbon said:

Jorah using it for 'creeping' doesn't invalidate the fact that he knows of it.

I should have phrased it differently. I just tend to find Jorah gross like 99% of the time.

He knows of it because Dany told him. She told him about everything she saw at the HotU.

She asks him if he knows what the song of ice and fire is. She asks him if he knows what the three heads of the dragon are. She tells him about the blue flower growing in the ice, she tells him about the mummer's dragon, dead man on the prow of the ship, the banquet of blood and so on. 

So no, I don't think the dragon has three heads is all that widely known. Jorah is the only outsider, and by that I mean someone who had nothing to do with the Targaryens in the past, who talks about it but that's because Dany tells him about it. 

When Sarella brings it up, she is asked if it's a riddle.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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On 2/9/2020 at 6:29 AM, CassDarry said:

If Ashara was Elia’s Lady in Waiting why would she know where the cheating Husband and Mistress is?

There's no indication that that was Elia's attitude. Its entirely possible that Elia was relatively 'onboard'. After all, she appears to be present when Rhaegar affirms Aegon's importance and says the Dragon must have three heads, yet Elia can't have more kids, can't provide the third head. 
There is also a distinct absence of any evidence that Elia (as opposed to her family) was upset with Rhaegar's actions. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - I'm not saying she wasn't upset, just that we don't know. Most readers assume she was upset, but we simply don't know how much information she was privy to and whether any of that information might have affected her feelings about how events unfolded. For example, and this is not an idea I'm supporting (or unsupporting), she might have been grateful that Rhaegar found another woman to have a third head with, because now she wouldn't have to die trying.
Similarly, a lot is assumed about dynastic imperatives and how much of a risk a third child with someone else changes the future for her own children. But these are assumptions. A lot depends on the characters involved, and the way they guide and shape that future. For my part, although I understand Catelyn's fears about Jon, I suspect the same fears do not apply to Elia and the third head. Catelyn's fears are shaped by her uncertainty about Jon and the way Ned treats the subject. I suspect Elia's similar fears or lack thereof would be shaped by Rhaegar's attitudes and actions too. And Rhaegar is not hiding a deep dark secret the way Ned is, quite the opposite in fact.

On 2/9/2020 at 6:29 AM, CassDarry said:

and why would she tell Ned as she must know it would bring conflict between Arthur and him. One of suspected reasons she “killed herself” was because Arthur died. 

Why should it bring conflict between Ned and Arthur?
Because the murder of the Targaryen baes means Arthur can;t trust Ned, whom he doesn't really know, with Jon's life. 
Ashara may know Ned better and not think that Arthur doesn't. Or she may not know of the babe's murder when she tells Ned, or many other reasons.

And I wouldn't take seriously Barristan's speculations of why Ashara killed herself. He doesn't know anything, thats why he's literally speculating to himself. 
He had a crush on her when she was at court, but never acted on it. Its unlikely they even interacted much other than through their official duties. So he probably doesn't rally know her that well, certainly hasn't seen her for a long time, with huge changes since he last did. Even the thought he has about her stillborn child is almost certainly second hand information. Its not certain she even killed herself, let alone lost her child.

On 2/9/2020 at 10:43 AM, CassDarry said:

It definitely boggles the mind then staying there at all if not because they had to because of circumstances.

Why?
It potentially seems like a perfect location. An abandoned watchtower overlooking a relatively busy pass. No one has a reason to go there. They can see anyone approaching. Because its a well traveled pass it would be relatively easy to get supplies or support to inconspicuously - all that is needed is for their support/contacts to be travelling alone and slip of the side route to the tower. And they can inconspicuously move in either direction.

On 2/9/2020 at 10:43 AM, CassDarry said:

Why does Starfall make the most sense? Lyanna wasn’t Dornish and surely Rhaegar isn’t the Daynes favourite at the moment.

Isn;t he? Arthur, the Sowrd of the Morning, is his closest companion.

 

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21 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

So no, I don't think the dragon has three heads is all that widely known. Jorah is the only outsider, and by that I mean someone who had nothing to do with the Targaryens in the past, who talks about it but that's because Dany tells him about it. 

Well, see below, I suspect we are talking about two slightly different things.

21 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

When Sarella brings it up, she is asked if it's a riddle.

Quote

"No dragon has ever had three heads except on shields and banners," Armen the Acolyte said firmly. "That was a heraldic charge, no more. Furthermore, the Targaryens are all dead."

They know the dragon has three heads. Most don;t understand or think it is of significance, other than a heraldic charge, though. But they know of it.

Am I accidentally shifting the goalposts here? If so, sorry. Thats what I was trying to explain. I think everyone knows the dragon has three heads. I just think they don't know its so significant. But their underlying knowledge of this common thing makes it easy to seize on the significance if it comes up in context  - as Jorah did with Dany.

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17 minutes ago, corbon said:

Well, see below, I suspect we are talking about two slightly different things.

Yes, we are.

There's the "surface" knowledge about the three heads of the dragon which as you pointed is the Targaryen sigil. I'm talking about the "deeper" knowledge that Sarella might have that could come only from one of her family members. When Maester Aemon, Rhaegar, the Undying talk about the three heads of the dragon, they're not talking about the sigil of his House, he's talking about something else.

Jorah tells Dany that Aegon and his sisters were the three heads of the dragon which in turn leads Dany to say that Rhaegar was missing a Visenya and landed us with the speculation that he was trying to recreate the original trio.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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29 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Yes, we are.

There's the "surface" knowledge about the three heads of the dragon which as you pointed is the Targaryen sigil. I'm talking about the "deeper" knowledge that Sarella might have that could come only from one of her family members. When Maester Aemon, Rhaegar, the Undying talk about the three heads of the dragon, they're not talking about the sigil of his House, he's talking about something else.

Jorah tells Dany that Aegon and his sisters were the three heads of the dragon which in turn leads Dany to say that Rhaegar was missing a Visenya and landed us with the speculation that he was trying to recreate the original trio.

Yeah. I guess my point is that the common surface knowledge enables people to seize on the deeper thing for their own purposes when it becomes contextually relevant for them.

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