mormont Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Heartofice said: Lol. I think you guys are really missing a critical piece of the puzzle here. Boris Johnson is a UK national. And so are many of the people we're discussing, including Shamima Begum. Whoops, she isn't any more, because the government gave themselves the power to take that away. But that's totally not racism. Nothing is ever about racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 3 hours ago, Heartofice said: Logic is pretty consistent, kick out criminals who shouldn’t be in the country and remove citizenship from people who go to fight for ISIS. 1 hour ago, Heartofice said: Lol. I think you guys are really missing a critical piece of the puzzle here. Boris Johnson is a UK national. Oh, right. The poster forgot step 2. Remove citizenship. So, the correct procedure to (presumably) satisfy your (undoutbedly) unbiased view on things would've been. 1. JOhnson admitted to drug violations. 2. The country should remove the citizenship from those offenders. 3. Deport him to the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 21 minutes ago, mormont said: And so are many of the people we're discussing, including Shamima Begum. Whoops, she isn't any more, because the government gave themselves the power to take that away. But that's totally not racism. Nothing is ever about racism. No the flight to Jamaica was for foreign nationals. Begum went off to join ISIS and help the effort to fight UK soldiers, that is why her nationality is being removed, nothing to do with the colour of her skin. So again, please tell me where this evidence of racism is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 2 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: 3. Deport him to the US. Doesn’t tradition require Johnson be sent to Australia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said: Doesn’t tradition require Johnson be sent to Australia? Have some pity man! They're in the midst of successive natural disasters, let's not add insult to injury! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said: Doesn’t tradition require Johnson be sent to Australia? Well, you can take that position. However as far as Johnson is concerned, let me put it this way. Usually not my cup of tea, but I just wanted to make boss post once. (c'mon this pun was truely worthy of a British politics thread) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impmk2 Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said: Doesn’t tradition require Johnson be sent to Australia? No thanks. We've got enough of our own crazy right wing nutbag politicians without taking the UK's too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Which Tyler said: Have some pity man! They're in the midst of successive natural disasters, let's not add insult to injury! Make him go fight it. What could go wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 Is there some notion that you can't be racists against people with a similar skin tone? That seems rather a nonsense. There are plenty of examples of racism between people who to outside observers look the same. There is a lot of intra-Asian racism including between China, Japan and Korea, and those ethnicities are as similar as English, Romanian and Albanian. Heck I would call Anglo-Saxons telling Irish jokes racist. Would have been a time when Angles would have looked at Celts and said "we are not the same race as them". And those prejudices haven't entirely disappeared just because we've become progressively more colour-centric about our bigotry. The notion that I must have a different skin colour to someone to be able to be racist towards them is ridiculous. Perception of race is also quite varied. A Chinese friend of mine sometimes complained about people saying Barak Obama is "black". She correctly pointed out that his mother is white and to her eyes Obama looks more white than black, and of course a lot of Chinese people have darker skin than Obama and they would not be considered black. Admittedly she is a conservative and so didn't like Obama at all, so maybe she was looking for ways to claim that Obama is not the first black president. But still going purely or mostly by skin colour is relative to the observer's own perspective. And skin colour is a very poor way to define race, notwithstanding the very notion of race itself is pretty worthless in all respects except when wanting to identify a group of people in order to oppress them but exempt yourself from the same oppression. Interestingly with talk of Australia, in recent years there's been some friction between us and Aussie about the deportation of New Zealand citizens who were convicted criminals (and in some cases not convicted of anything but known to be associated with the wrong people) in Aus. Many such people went to Aussie as children under 10 and their criminality is arguably a product of their environment since arriving in Australia. Without going further, as far as I know anyone who became an Australian citizen before being convicted of any serious crime has not been stripped of citizenship and deported to NZ. So as xenophobic as Aussie often seems to be it appears on this one aspect the UK might be more xenophobic. ISIS / Al Qaeda fighters do seem to be a special case, both in NZ and Aus, and both govts seem to be more than happy to strip citizenship if there is any possible way to do so. One problem we have is that a natural born, white NZer was an ISIS (or Al Qaeda?) fighter and he wants to come back to NZ. There are people who want to deny him his return, so I guess at least in this case it's "only" Islamophobia . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 10 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said: Is there some notion that you can't be racists against people with a similar skin tone? That seems rather a nonsense. There are plenty of examples of racism between people who to outside observers look the same. There is a lot of intra-Asian racism including between China, Japan and Korea, and those ethnicities are as similar as English, Romanian and Albanian. Heck I would call Anglo-Saxons telling Irish jokes racist. Would have been a time when Angles would have looked at Celts and said "we are not the same race as them". And those prejudices haven't entirely disappeared just because we've become progressively more colour-centric about our bigotry. The notion that I must have a different skin colour to someone to be able to be racist towards them is ridiculous. There is a very long and constant history of racism towards the (fundamentally identical) Irish in the UK, which is then significantly increased if they are Irish Travellers. The ease with which it has blazed back into life in the last few years is startling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maarsen Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 4 hours ago, Werthead said: There is a very long and constant history of racism towards the (fundamentally identical) Irish in the UK, which is then significantly increased if they are Irish Travellers. The ease with which it has blazed back into life in the last few years is startling. Racism has never been just about skin tone. Skin tone, culture, language, even which side of a river on which you live serves as a marker to differentiate 'us' from 'them'. It pains me to say this but I suspect as humans we all have these biases. The better amongst us realize this and being aware of it refuse to let it control our thoughts and actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 Quite honestly, racism is just an extension of tribalism. Whether you hate someone because of their skin colour, or their shirt colour doesn't matter - you hate them because they're "them" not "us" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 Since the thread hasn't moved on... 23 hours ago, Heartofice said: Begum went off to join ISIS and help the effort to fight UK soldiers, that is why her nationality is being removed, nothing to do with the colour of her skin. So again, please tell me where this evidence of racism is. Evidence will be hard to provide because right-wing parties or politicians now operate with a combination of plausible deniability and doghwhistling. In the Begum case the problem is that she was not a dual citizen and depriving her of British citizenship left her stateless. Basically, while I think terrorism should be severely punished by the law, it is still up to the terrorist's nation to deal with them. On the surface, she was deprived of her nationality for good reasons (plausible deniability) ; but the severity of the punishment in this case leads to a state abandoning their responsibility. One way of looking at it is that depriving a terrorist of their citizenship is also dumping a problem on other countries. Behind the Begum case thus hides another principle (a dogwhistle): that citizenship has to be deserved. On the surface, again, this isn't necessarily absurd, depending on the social contract of a given nation. However, it is an odd principle for Britain, and I have yet to see this applied to someone of anglo-saxon ethnicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 18 minutes ago, Rippounet said: Evidence will be hard to provide because right-wing parties or politicians now operate with a combination of plausible deniability and doghwhistling. so... you don't have any then. Ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/12/one-rule-for-black-boys-and-another-for-white-jeremy-corbyn-boris-johnson-deportation-pmqs Also amusing that Corbyn is exactly as confused on the issue as a number of people here. Bit embarrassing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 38 minutes ago, Heartofice said: so... you don't have any then. Ok. How about you provide legal precedent, and legal basis for revoking the citizenship of Begum. I mean for a (self-proclaimed) legal professional this should not be a problem. If you manage to get around that for starters, you might get closer to having a defendable position on this one. Like Rippounet said, this is legally questinable, and morally even less tenable, as in dumping an unwanted person onto a third country. Deal with your own terrorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: Like Rippounet said, this is legally questinable, and morally even less tenable, as in dumping an unwanted person onto a third country. Deal with your own terrorists. Not disagreeing with any of that, which is one of the reasons I think blaming the whole thing on racism without basis is so counter productive. It’s made everyone look rather foolish and distracted from the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 Listen, if I'm standing in an orchard and demanding evidence that there are apples, nobody with any sense is going to bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 11 minutes ago, mormont said: Listen, if I'm standing in an orchard and demanding evidence that there are apples, nobody with any sense is going to bother. I’m not going to go back and count the amount of times I’ve asked you for evidence of racism in these cases, but it’s quite a lot. Two pages worth. You’ve continued to post on the topic for some reason but have provided nothing. Not a thing. You’re pretty consistent I’ll give you that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 So you admit there's no precedent for the UK revoking the citizenship for one of its subjects? Now then, what's the big difference between Begum and some Brit who picked up arms to fight for let's say the IRA (too lazy to look who brought up the IRA). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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