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Lord Varys

Drastic or unforgivable acts

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57 minutes ago, SeanF said:

1.  was horrible, but I can see that fighting their way into the mine was not practical.  I agree about the others.

9.  is perhaps even worse than you think, as one of the children might have been Theon's.  The miller's wife seems to have been more than just a one night stand (which makes his willingness to stand by as she was murdered all the worse).

I think that LF's treatment of Jeyne Poole was a special kind of evil, as well.  Also, the creation of the Unsullied.

 

Once the Reynes and all their surviving people went into the mines, Tywin could have had the water be send down at a much slower rate, so the Reynes would have to come out; or he could have sent a message down telling them that the place would be flooded in 12 hours and that he would spare the women and children if they came out.  

Yes, Theon could be a kinslayer.  But Theon hated being embarrassed or hypothetically mocked, so he killed kids and let their mother be murdered too.  I don't think Theon can really be redeemed for that; he's earned a quick death as far as I'm concerned.  (especially since he doesn't seem to regret their deaths in the same way he regrets turning on the Starks)

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3 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

Yes, Theon could be a kinslayer.  But Theon hated being embarrassed or hypothetically mocked, so he killed kids and let their mother be murdered too.  I don't think Theon can really be redeemed for that; he's earned a quick death as far as I'm concerned.  (especially since he doesn't seem to regret their deaths in the same way he regrets turning on the Starks)

This. There’s no possibility of redemption for Theon until he admits - to himself and the world - that killing the miller’s boys was a horrifically atrocious act, and maybe even worse than if he had killed Bran and Rickon.

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On 2/4/2020 at 5:45 PM, Raksha 2014 said:

Yes, Theon could be a kinslayer.  But Theon hated being embarrassed or hypothetically mocked, so he killed kids and let their mother be murdered too.  I don't think Theon can really be redeemed for that; he's earned a quick death as far as I'm concerned.  (especially since he doesn't seem to regret their deaths in the same way he regrets turning on the Starks)

Didn't he have nightmares about them?

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Just to speak up for Theon here.  I don't like the guy but we need to remember his condition.  He was a hostage and the Starks would have killed him if papa Balon rebel again.  So that mitigates his decision to take Winterfell.  The murder of the two farm children are unforgivable.  His turning his back on the Starks can be defended on the grounds that he was their prisoner.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Just to speak up for Theon here.  I don't like the guy but we need to remember his condition.  He was a hostage and the Starks would have killed him if papa Balon rebel again.  So that mitigates his decision to take Winterfell.  The murder of the two farm children are unforgivable.  His turning his back on the Starks can be defended on the grounds that he was their prisoner.  

 

I actually agree with most of this. I would only add that as bad as the murder of the Millers children is, he has paid & paid for it. I think he should either be left alone, or given a quick death. No one deserves what he has went through. 

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We don't judge characters or their actions in a vacuum. We judge them by comparing them to other characters and based on our own understanding of the world. What might be reprehensible for one person might not be for another. Many of Arya's kills could be considered unforgivable but many excuse it due to her age and the trauma she's been through. 

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On 2/10/2020 at 1:06 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I actually agree with most of this. I would only add that as bad as the murder of the Millers children is, he has paid & paid for it. I think he should either be left alone, or given a quick death. No one deserves what he has went through. 

Justice is sometimes impossible.  Those two peasant boys can't be given their lives back.  Theon deserves to be punished and he got punished.  At what level is it enough?  Can it ever be enough?  What benefit would further punishment bring to the parents?  The fitting punishment for the murder of the peasant kids is an execution.  Torture would be fine if there was benefit to it.  There isn't.  As it stands, he has suffered worse than death.  

Theon though is a nobleman and the murder of the peasant boys would have gone largely unpunished if the legal system was intact in the north.  We are talking philosophically.  

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On 2/11/2020 at 12:51 PM, EvanSol919 said:

We don't judge characters or their actions in a vacuum. We judge them by comparing them to other characters and based on our own understanding of the world. What might be reprehensible for one person might not be for another. Many of Arya's kills could be considered unforgivable but many excuse it due to her age and the trauma she's been through. 

War traumatized a lot of people.  Her own family is guilty of bringing suffering to a lot of people who have nothing to do with their feud.  It's not ok for them to murder.  It's not ok for her to murder.  The killing of the insurance agent in Braavos was unforgivable.

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4 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Justice is sometimes impossible.  Those two peasant boys can't be given their lives back.  Theon deserves to be punished and he got punished.  At what level is it enough?  Can it ever be enough?  What benefit would further punishment bring to the parents?  The fitting punishment for the murder of the peasant kids is an execution.  Torture would be fine if there was benefit to it.  There isn't.  As it stands, he has suffered worse than death.  

Theon though is a nobleman and the murder of the peasant boys would have gone largely unpunished if the legal system was intact in the north.  We are talking philosophically.  

Absolutely. I would be 100% behind Theon being executed for killing the kids. This torture though! It's so much. It's a hard thing that can make me sympathize with a child murderer. Of course I don't sympathize with him for killing the kids but for what he goes through afterwards. 

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You could argue that Theon has not been punished for those murders, not by proper proceedings anyway, if two guys in the modern world did that, and then one locked the other away and beat him daily, just for kicks, I would imagine that both would still see the inside of a jail cell.

 

But who has the right to punish Theon? Was it Ramsay? Certainly not, Ramsay needed Theon too whipped to admit those boys weren’t Bran and Rickon and he wanted to have some fun. Is it Stannis? As the only man in the vicinity with a crown you could make a case, but Theons crimes were against the Starks, who were rebels to Stannis, and does Stannis risk the possible emnity or lose a bargaining chip with the Ironborn over two Millers boys should he find out the truth. Is it Bran or Rickon? What is Bran or Rickon going to charge him with? Treason? He is Ironborn. 
 

Any sane person who sees Theon would think that he has suffered enough, but every pair of hands that gets hold of him will want to punish him for Bran and Rickon still, unless they all learn the truth, in which case it’s likely only Theons conscious will punish him at all. It’s a mad world they live in 

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Stannis killing Renly and burning people alive in my eyes are unredimeble acts, if the whole sacrifice of Shereen really comes, than he will deserves worst than what Theon got.

Burning his daughter would be the worst act in the series bar none.

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On 2/13/2020 at 5:53 AM, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

You could argue that Theon has not been punished for those murders, not by proper proceedings anyway, if two guys in the modern world did that, and then one locked the other away and beat him daily, just for kicks, I would imagine that both would still see the inside of a jail cell.

 

But who has the right to punish Theon? Was it Ramsay? Certainly not, Ramsay needed Theon too whipped to admit those boys weren’t Bran and Rickon and he wanted to have some fun. Is it Stannis? As the only man in the vicinity with a crown you could make a case, but Theons crimes were against the Starks, who were rebels to Stannis, and does Stannis risk the possible emnity or lose a bargaining chip with the Ironborn over two Millers boys should he find out the truth. Is it Bran or Rickon? What is Bran or Rickon going to charge him with? Treason? He is Ironborn. 
 

Any sane person who sees Theon would think that he has suffered enough, but every pair of hands that gets hold of him will want to punish him for Bran and Rickon still, unless they all learn the truth, in which case it’s likely only Theons conscious will punish him at all. It’s a mad world they live in 

Both would see the inside of a jail cell because he took the law in his hands.  Citizens may sit in judgment on the trials of their peers but may not carry out the sentence.  Today.

Ramsay got the right when he became Bolton's heir.  As a nobleman of the north tasked with its management during the absence of Roose, yeah, you could say he sort of has the right.  The sticking point is Theon's family are nobles too.  

The Starks and Stannis are labeled outlaws.  The Crown would not consider them to have this authority.  So sad as it may be, the Boltons have the law on their side to punish Theon.  They can also look away.  People did for Ramsay's crimes.  The man was tormenting women and the rest of the north looked away.  I suppose the Boltons could choose to let Theon's crimes slide.  

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