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Will Sansa learn in TWOW of fArya's marriage?


Nagini's Neville

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For example from Miranda? She also was quick to talk about Ned Stark's bastard. Sansa knowing Arya is alive, might change things for her. (but I guess she also doesn't know Ramsey is a psychopath) Did LF truly not think about this possibility? Is he under the belief he can keep fArya's marriage a secret? 

1. Do you think it will happen? If yes, how? from whom? Will she also be informed, that Arya escaped? Will she know what a horrible person Ramsey is? How will Sansa's reaction be? Could this cause a break between her and LF even sooner? (maybe not completely but will aid the mistrust and wanting to escape his influence to maybe rescue/ reunite with her sister)

2. Is LF aware/prepared for this possibility? Has he made arrangements so Sansa won't hear about it? How might he deal with Sansa knowing? What will he tell her?

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I think it will definitely happen. She could learn it from the Redfort sons. They were close friends with Domeric Bolton. As to what Sansa would do in response. I think she will flee from the Vale and go North. I happen to believe she's the Girl in Grey. 

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1 minute ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

There are people besides LF who knows the truth.  I believe Kingslayer knows. 

Sure, but he is nowhere near Sansa

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Sansa is not the kind to put her family first.  She will continue playing LF's game because it is the only road to comfort and status for her.  

11 year old Sansa in AGOT, who didn't know the stakes and didn't know what it is like to lose your family didn't in some ways put her family first (but she also didn't know she would have to "chose"/would lose her family forever). Sansa had a lot of comfort and status in KL still all she wanted was to return home the whole time. I definitely don't think she would chose comfort over Arya. She might not have liked Arya in the past, but she for sure loves her. And it's pretty clear, that she doesn't care that much about status either anymore. She seems to enjoy the freedom, that comes with the bastard status and she's also not eager to marry Harry

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12 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

She will continue playing LF's game because it is the only road to comfort and status for her.  

But such news could make her snap at him. It doesn’t really matter if she learns the whole truth or only that “Arya” was forced to marry Ramsay, she just needs to know that Creepyfinger was behind this: she will be horrified and worried in both cases.

 

Yes, besides Creepyfinger, the Boltons & Theon, also Jaime and Brienne know.

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1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sure, but he is nowhere near Sansa

11 year old Sansa in AGOT, who didn't know the stakes and didn't know what it is like to lose your family didn't in some ways put her family first (but she also didn't know she would have to "chose"/would lose her family forever). Sansa had a lot of comfort and status in KL still all she wanted was to return home the whole time. I definitely don't think she would chose comfort over Arya. She might not have liked Arya in the past, but she for sure loves her. And it's pretty clear, that she doesn't care that much about status either anymore. She seems to enjoy the freedom, that comes with the bastard status and she's also not eager to marry Harry

I read her traits differently.  I think Sansa will continue to be selfish.  LF is offering something shiny and desirable, thus she will stick to his side.  

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1 minute ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I read her traits differently.  I think Sansa will continue to be selfish.  LF is offering something shiny and desirable, thus she will stick to his side.  

then please provide some quotes that support your argument from AFFC or any other book, but AGOT. Because as I recall she definitely doesn't want to remarry.

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9 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sansa had a lot of comfort and status in KL still all she wanted was to return home the whole time. 

Being constantly beaten, abused and humiliated, being forced into a marriage with an ugly dwarf who comes from the same family as your abusers/ tormenters, being defined as the daughter of a dead traitor... these are not by any stretch of the imagination indicators of “a lot of comfort and status”.  Sansa only longs for home after Ned is killed and she herself becomes a victim of abuse at KL. And besides, after Joffrey’s death, she’s suspected of regicide. So fleeing KL was her only option. Yes, she was hoping to go home to WF, instead LF first took her to the Fingers and then to the Vale and now she knows WF is in ruins and she has nowhere to go. 

As to your OP question, yes Sansa will prolly find out in the next book about FArya and her marriage to Ramsay. This is common knowledge and

Spoiler

Sansa is about to hold a tourney with all the Vale Lords and Ladies present.

In terms of what she will or rather can do with the information — she’s currently not in a position to take on LF. There’s not much Sansa can do with her position and dependency on LF at this point in time, so she will play along. Besides, there’s a war in the North and things will all depend on whoever comes out victorious. Perhaps, if and when Sansa gets the upper hand in the relationship (she is aware that LF wears a mask) she may seek out Arya or even (as so many of her fans hope she will) take the Vale army to the North. I just don’t see something like this happening well into the next book or even in ADOS. Or else, it will feel rushed and inorganic. GRRM has a lot of plots in the Vale to resolve before Sansa comes into her own and takes down LF, if that’s where her arc is going. Perhaps before Sansa is in a position to seek out Arya, Arya might just find Sansa. 

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@Widowmaker 811 Sansa never thought her father was a traitor despite the fact four adults tried to manipulate her. On top of that she also plead mercy for Ned too. Do you think that was a risk free action? She could have easily been labeled a traitor for speaking up for Ned, but Sansa didn't care. Since you seem to believe Sansa is this horrible selfish little twat how do you interpret this situation. Was she a selfish little brat in this too?

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Just now, Elegant Woes said:

@Widowmaker 811 Sansa never thought her father was a traitor despite the fact four adults tried to manipulate her. On top of that she also plead mercy for Ned too. Do you think that was a risk free action? She could have easily been labeled a traitor for speaking up for Ned, but Sansa didn't care. Since you seem to believe Sansa is this horrible selfish little twat how do you interpret this situation. Was she a selfless little brat in this too?

She's a Stark, that's all that's needed for her to be vilified by some. 

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Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell.

- FFC Alayne II

 

It's interesting, Petyr "gives" her "her birthright", but I can't find anything in any of her chapters to indicate that she even knows the Boltons are currently holding Winterfell. She thinks several time about Winterfell being fallen, silent, burned, and Petyr tells her the northmen are fighting amongst themselves, but it seems that she doesn't know anything about what happened in the North after the Ironborn supposedly sacked Winterfell. Granted, I may have left out the right keywords, but as far as I can tell, Sansa has no idea Roose is Warden of the North, and Ramsay has married "Arya". It's easy to imagine that Petyr would edit out that information, but it has to be common knowledge thoughout the Vale, and Petyr has to know that, as well. I wonder if he just figures when/if she hears it from Miranda (or anyone else, really) that he'll point out he sold the Boltons a knockoff in place of her sister--because he does seem quite keen to let her in on highlight reels of his clever little duplicities to "soothe" her fears. But I think it might not occur to him to keep Jeyne's actual identity to himself, and maybe not even what was done to her in advance of her marriage--and I wonder how Sansa will react to that.

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4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

For example from Miranda? She also was quick to talk about Ned Stark's bastard. Sansa knowing Arya is alive, might change things for her. (but I guess she also doesn't know Ramsey is a psychopath) Did LF truly not think about this possibility? Is he under the belief he can keep fArya's marriage a secret? 

1. Do you think it will happen? If yes, how? from whom? Will she also be informed, that Arya escaped? Will she know what a horrible person Ramsey is? How will Sansa's reaction be? Could this cause a break between her and LF even sooner? (maybe not completely but will aid the mistrust and wanting to escape his influence to maybe rescue/ reunite with her sister)

2. Is LF aware/prepared for this possibility? Has he made arrangements so Sansa won't hear about it? How might he deal with Sansa knowing? What will he tell her?

Petyr knows that she is not the real Arya, so if Sansa starts making noise about reconnecting with her sister, I'll bet he'll let her in on the secret -- probably not to the extent of revealing that it's actually Sansa's long-lost friend Jeyne though.

From there, I'm sure he can come up with some excuse as to why this little farce has to play out a while longer and how its in her best interests to leave it be, blah, blah. Sansa is still pretty gullible at this point.

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Can we please stay on topic and refrain from the typical Sansa bashing. I get that some of you don't like her, I have some characters that I despise, but guess what? I generally avoid topics about that said character. I suggest the Sansa haters to do the same. For once let's not allow Sansa related topic get off rails. Pretty please? 

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17 hours ago, teej6 said:

Being constantly beaten, abused and humiliated, being forced into a marriage with an ugly dwarf who comes from the same family as your abusers/ tormenters, being defined as the daughter of a dead traitor... these are not by any stretch of the imagination indicators of “a lot of comfort and status”.  Sansa only longs for home after Ned is killed and she herself becomes a victim of abuse at KL. And besides, after Joffrey’s death, she’s suspected of regicide. So fleeing KL was her only option. Yes, she was hoping to go home to WF, instead LF first took her to the Fingers and then to the Vale and now she knows WF is in ruins and she has nowhere to go.

Yes, you are 100% right. That was stupid of me to write. I 100% did not mean it like that. I wrote it just in response to @Widowmaker 811, who claimed that she would do anything for comfort and status. And in a very very superficial way she still had that in KL. She was still a noble lady and had servants and stuff and was married to a nobleman. So if status and comfort (in the most superficial way, don't know if that's the right way to say it) were the only things she was interested in she might have tried to "make something" out of that situation.

But you absolutly can't speak of "comfort", when you are constanly abused and threatend and forced into a marrige with your enemy as a child. And you are right being the daughter of a traitor takes status away as well, but she wasn't a bastard yet, she for example was highborn enough so LF couldn't marry her, was all I was trying to say. And if status was so important to her (more importnat than familiy) she wouldn't even have tried to save her father after his arrest.

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As to your OP question, yes Sansa will prolly find out in the next book about FArya and her marriage to Ramsay. This is common knowledge and

okay, didn't know this was common knowledge yet. She obviously hasn't done it yet. I guess most things are common knowledge, but we keep on discussing them, since there is nothing new to discuss.

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In terms of what she will or rather can do with the information — she’s currently not in a position to take on LF. There’s not much Sansa can do with her position and dependency on LF at this point in time, so she will play along. Besides, there’s a war in the North and things will all depend on whoever comes out victorious. Perhaps, if and when Sansa gets the upper hand in the relationship (she is aware that LF wears a mask) she may seek out Arya or even (as so many of her fans hope she will) take the Vale army to the North. I just don’t see something like this happening well into the next book or even in ADOS. Or else, it will feel rushed and inorganic. GRRM has a lot of plots in the Vale to resolve before Sansa comes into her own and takes down LF, if that’s where her arc is going. Perhaps before Sansa is in a position to seek out Arya, Arya might just find Sansa.

yes, I guess you are right. If the Vale plot ended to soon, it would be weird and kinda all for nothing. There are still to many plot lines to resolve and Sansa also has still a lot more to learn, as horrible as it is for me, that she has to learn from someon like LF. Maybe she can somehow along he way rebuff his advances. Maybe she can blackmail him in a sutble way so he will stopp molesting her. She just has been through enough IMO. It it's horrible and unfair, that the only way she can gain the knowledge, that might help her gain her independence is through a man, who abuses her yet again. But because the Vale plot can't end to soon, I find it weird, that there are so many threats to it: Everyone could recognize Sansa at anytime, the mad mouse is already in the Vale, there is a prize on Sansa's head, Sansa herself already mistrusts LF and if there'd be a way out rn, she might take it.

"And Littlefinger was no friend of hers. When Joff had her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her. Except to get me out. He did that for me. I thought it was Ser Dontos, my poor old drunken Florian, but it was Petyr all the while. Littlefinger was only a mask he had to wear. Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the man ended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go."

AFFC, Sansa I

"The Lord of Runestone stood as tall as the Hound....He will know me. How could he not? She considered throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection."

AFFC, Sansa II

Sansa herself already feels like she is in need of protection even though she isn't beaten up anymore, so I just don't see how she wouldn't take the opportunity to escape, if she could. She isn't power hungry after all.

All of that makes me think, that LF is just not as smart as I always thought. Taking so many risks. But yes, maybe he has that great master paln or something, but it seems unlikely to me rn.

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7 hours ago, Therae said:

 

It's interesting, Petyr "gives" her "her birthright", but I can't find anything in any of her chapters to indicate that she even knows the Boltons are currently holding Winterfell. She thinks several time about Winterfell being fallen, silent, burned, and Petyr tells her the northmen are fighting amongst themselves, but it seems that she doesn't know anything about what happened in the North after the Ironborn supposedly sacked Winterfell. Granted, I may have left out the right keywords, but as far as I can tell, Sansa has no idea Roose is Warden of the North, and Ramsay has married "Arya". It's easy to imagine that Petyr would edit out that information, but it has to be common knowledge thoughout the Vale, and Petyr has to know that, as well. 

Yes, Sansa doesn't know yet what happened. But since everyone else knows and LF doesn't isolate her it can only be a matter of time until she finds out, I agree.

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I wonder if he just figures when/if she hears it from Miranda (or anyone else, really) that he'll point out he sold the Boltons a knockoff in place of her sister--because he does seem quite keen to let her in on highlight reels of his clever little duplicities to "soothe" her fears. But I think it might not occur to him to keep Jeyne's actual identity to himself, and maybe not even what was done to her in advance of her marriage--and I wonder how Sansa will react to that.

That's an idea I haven't thought about. But it would be just incredibly stupid of him to reveal Jeyne's true identity. But IMO he does a lot of things, that don't seem so smart rn. So maybe he actually isn't after all.

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6 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

Can we please stay on topic and refrain from the typical Sansa bashing. I get that some of you don't like her, I have some characters that I despise, but guess what? I generally avoid topics about that said character. I suggest the Sansa haters to do the same. For once let's not allow Sansa related topic get off rails. Pretty please? 

I second that. Please everyone stay on topic :) ( but most posters did anyway :) so that's great)

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13 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That's an idea I haven't thought about. But it would be just incredibly stupid of him to reveal Jeyne's true identity. But IMO he does a lot of things, that don't seem so smart rn. So maybe he actually isn't after all.

I think he tends to disregard whatever isn't of value to him; he's quite arrogant, really, and he assumes that if he doesn't care about something, no one else will either--so Jeyne is just a useful body to him, and what matters is that she's a temporary Stark sister to give the Boltons some legitimacy until he's ready for the real Sansa Stark to stand up, whereupon, *poof!* that's not Arya, hahaha. I expect he takes it for granted that Sansa would be impressed by his cleverness, and never considered for a minute that it might really matter that Jeyne was Sansa's childhood friend.

He's had Dontos killed as a reward for getting Sansa out of King's Landing, explained that his plan involves framing Tyrion for Joffrey's murder, so T would be executed and make her a widow, also explained (albeit, not in so many words) that as a result of his assassination plan, Sansa herself is on the hook for it and now depends on him for safety, told her he slept with her mother, implied that he didn't think much of her father, killed her aunt right in front of her and framed Marillion for it, told her he planted a mole in the Lords Declarant, and stated flatly that Sweetrobin won't survive very long--after initiating the process of poisoning him, and, so far, none of that is leading her to mistrust his intentions, even though she's uncomfortable with his Creepyfinger kisses and touches, but what he has done to Jeyne could actually turn out to be the thing that makes her go cold on him. I sure hope so.

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28 minutes ago, Therae said:

I think he tends to disregard whatever isn't of value to him; he's quite arrogant, really, and he assumes that if he doesn't care about something, no one else will either--so Jeyne is just a useful body to him, and what matters is that she's a temporary Stark sister to give the Boltons some legitimacy until he's ready for the real Sansa Stark to stand up, whereupon, *poof!* that's not Arya, hahaha. I expect he takes it for granted that Sansa would be impressed by his cleverness, and never considered for a minute that it might really matter that Jeyne was Sansa's childhood friend.

He's had Dontos killed as a reward for getting Sansa out of King's Landing, explained that his plan involves framing Tyrion for Joffrey's murder, so T would be executed and make her a widow, also explained (albeit, not in so many words) that as a result of his assassination plan, Sansa herself is on the hook for it and now depends on him for safety, told her he slept with her mother, implied that he didn't think much of her father, killed her aunt right in front of her and framed Marillion for it, told her he planted a mole in the Lords Declarant, and stated flatly that Sweetrobin won't survive very long--after initiating the process of poisoning him, and, so far, none of that is leading her to mistrust his intentions, even though she's uncomfortable with his Creepyfinger kisses and touches, but what he has done to Jeyne could actually turn out to be the thing that makes her go cold on him. I sure hope so.

Yeah, it's really crazy how much he has revealed to her. He must feel very save for some reason. After all of that I just can't think of him as that smart anymore. Looking back he actually also had a ton of luck.

I disagree however, that Sansa doesn't mistrust him. She certainly does mistrust him already on a level. But firstly she really doesn't have any other place to go to and is now also wanted for killing the king and secondly Sansa has actually very good instincts, when it comes to people ( When she first met LF, she notices immediately that his eyes don't smile, when his mouth does- non of the adults have notice or describe anything like that), but she has very low self- esteem from being abused so much and also has been raised to obey authority figures (and also has the personality as a child to be inclined to do that), therefore she hasn't built up the confidence yet IMO to trust in herself and her instincts. But the instincts are certainly there. She makes the destination between LF and Petyr and knows LF has not necessarily her well- being in mind. Also Sansa has been abused so much and exposed to so much corruption and crimes, that it might be hard for her fully comprehend what is normal and necessary and what isn't. She certainly understands it somehow on an emotional level IMO, she just has to find the confidence to trust in and listen to her own morality opposed to LF's.

And Littlefinger was no friend of hers. When Joff had her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her. Except to get me out. He did that for me. I thought it was Ser Dontos, my poor old drunken Florian, but it was Petyr all the while. Littlefinger was only a mask he had to wear. Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the man ended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go."

AFFC, Sansa I

"The Lord of Runestone stood as tall as the Hound....He will know me. How could he not? She considered throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection."

AFFC, Sansa II

If she feels like she needs protection she definitely feels like she is in danger. Also IMO for us reader it is sometimes hard to "forget" all the horrible things, that LF has done and only focus on what Sansa knows about what LF has done and half of the horrible things he has done, that she knows of where done to save and protect her (Lysa &Marillion)

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but what he has done to Jeyne could actually turn out to be the thing that makes her go cold on him. I sure hope so.

If she knows the full extent of want LF has done to Jeyne, especially "the training in the whore-house" since she might not find out about what a psychopath Ramsay is, she must have become a very different person or he must find an excellent way to manipulate her (but I don't think so, that would be Joffrey all over again and she isn't that same 11 year old anymore and it would be repetitive), if that doesn't open her eyes about him completely (maybe she keeps on pretending towards him though) similarly to how Joffrey beheading Ned opened her eyes regarding him.

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@Nagini's Neville - all good points. It's just my take is the one thing we really see giving her the pause about Littlefinger is the icky molesting he does. It's the only specific thing she's reluctant about. The quote you've used doesn't question any of the actual horrible things she knows he's done; basically she's realizing that he has not let chivalry get in the way of his political standing when there were opportunities to help her and show her some kindness. I think she knows he isn't doing whatever he's doing out of good, clean, wholesome love for her poor murdered mother, or herself for that matter, but she doesn't seem to question his methods--or at least she is very good at suppressing thoughts of that kind and/or rationalizing them. But, as I said, I think what he's done to Jeyne could be the thing that breaks her from him.

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