Fez Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 So rare to genuine courage in politicians, especially in Republicans these days. Romney has gained a lot of respect in my eyes today. Also, I find it interesting that, despite crossing the Rubicon, he's only voting to convict on the first charge, abuse of power; and not the second charge, obstruction of Congress. It does make me wonder if Democrats would've had more success on the witness vote if the House had waited to try to enforce the subpoenas in court before voting to impeach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, Fez said: So rare to genuine courage in politicians, especially in Republicans these days. Romney has gained a lot of respect in my eyes today. Also, I find it interesting that, despite crossing the Rubicon, he's only voting to convict on the first charge, abuse of power; and not the second charge, obstruction of Congress. It does make me wonder if Democrats would've had more success on the witness vote if the House had waited to try to enforce the subpoenas in court before voting to impeach. Didn't the Trump defense use the failure to attempt to enforce the subpoenas as part of their defense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Simon Steele said: This is true. I saw this in one of Michael Moore's documentaries about how Germany treats WW2 as part of their history. They face it, and they are determined to never become that country again. I know that not all regions of the country follow this, but that it is the national ethos makes me ashamed of how we treat our history in the U.S. Yep. It would be interesting to see how Germans react to things like Civil War reenactments by Southerners. And on that note, also worth mention that neo-Nazi groups in Germany often rock the Stars and Bars because Nazi paraphernalia is banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 It is not courage to do your job unless your job is like a firefighter or in the armed forces or something. Not being a coward doesn't mean you're brave, it just means you're not spineless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 6 minutes ago, Kalbear said: It is not courage to do your job unless your job is like a firefighter or in the armed forces or something. Not being a coward doesn't mean you're brave, it just means you're not spineless. I know some people who'd disagree with this narrow assessment of where courage may be displayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrist Simon Steele Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Maithanet said: I vividly remember being on college spring break in Savannah, GA during the days before the Iraq invasion. Drunk guys kept spontaneously yelling U-S-A and God Bless America. One of my teammates was yelling back FA-CI-SM, FA-CI-SM. I was worried he'd start a brawl because some of those guys were itching to fight. I loathe to write this (but in the spirit of facing the bad parts of our past) I was one of those guys in that time period. It wasn't until my subsequent deployment and witnessing of atrocity that I was forced to face what a corrupt, monstrous force I represented. Edit: On Romney's decision, I find it very courageous given the current political climate. I am (at times) a militant atheist, but I do think Romney's religion had to play a crucial role in this. While I can't defend many aspects of LDS, I do admire them for sometimes looking at an issue and considering it so opposed to the spirit of the gospels. Romney's choice here, for example, in standing up to corruption in the face of potential backlash. More so, I think about Salt Lake City's work to give all homeless people a home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrist Simon Steele Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I had a thread, years ago, where I pointed out why I don't like to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. I got push back here and this was in like 2010-2012. The song "Proud to be an American" is so saccharine it makes my stomach turn over every time I hear it played. I can't stand for it either. I get a pass if people know I'm a veteran, but I just can't be part of that anymore. If you ask me, Scot, I think your choice is very representative of the U.S. ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 10 minutes ago, Ran said: I know some people who'd disagree with this narrow assessment of where courage may be displayed. They did a bit more than just doing their job. They went above and beyond in deciding what to do, and it cost them politically. They also led the field at the time in encouraging others to do what they felt is right. Romney voting against Trump in a meaningless protest vote is not this. Maybe this costs Romney - my suspicion is that Utahns will vote him in without issue and that he has a seat on the senate for as long as he wants it in Utah. In that case, it's not particularly courageous because it's not particularly harmful. ETA: mostly, I get really tired of the McCain lighting that gets thrown at various moderate Republicans now and then because very rarely they have a modicum of decency, almost always when it doesn't matter and costs them nothing. Romney might not be the first one who should be voted out, but he should still be removed with the lot of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Kalbear said: Maybe this costs Romney - my suspicion is that Utahns will vote him in without issue and that he has a seat on the senate for as long as he wants it in Utah. In that case, it's not particularly courageous because it's not particularly harmful. Even if that's the case with Utahns (which it might be). He will still be subject to constant abuse from out-of-state Trump supporters and Trump himself, which can be extremely wearying. He will also be facing new hostility from his co-workers and friends that won't go away. One of the GOP Senators who doesn't hate him, Braun, has already felt the need to publicly announce that he would be opposed to any effort to expel Romney from the GOP caucus. And he is causing a permanent split within his own family; at the very least he is unlikely to see his niece or her family again. And there may be other Trump supporting family members as well, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Fez said: Even if that's the case with Utahns (which it might be). He will still be subject to constant abuse from out-of-state Trump supporters and Trump himself, which can be extremely wearying. He will also be facing new hostility from his co-workers and friends that won't go away. One of the GOP Senators who doesn't hate him, Braun, has already felt the need to publicly announce that he would be opposed to any effort to expel Romney from the GOP caucus. And he is causing a permanent split within his own family; at the very least he is unlikely to see his niece or her family again. And there may be other Trump supporting family members as well, I don't know. Plus, even though it's still unlikely, his vote will be more likely to put him into actual physical danger than any of the Democrats voting for impeachment. "Traitors" always arouse more anger in potentially violent crazies than those who were never perceived as being "on our side." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Not to mention Romney appears to be near the top of Trump’s enemy list, right after Bolton. I don’t for one minute doubt Trump will take some kind of action against the people in his list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IheartIheartTesla Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 I've never said the Pledge of Allegiance since I became a citizen in 2014 (my judge also changed our swearing in oath so we didnt reference god either). I wont be part of any ridiculous goosestepping ritual, thank you very much. I don't know about courage, but it shows Romney to be somewhat principled, and that's good enough for me. Makes me feel I could have good-faith disagreements with him, and that's a precious commodity right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, Fez said: Even if that's the case with Utahns (which it might be). He will still be subject to constant abuse from out-of-state Trump supporters and Trump himself, which can be extremely wearying. He will also be facing new hostility from his co-workers and friends that won't go away. One of the GOP Senators who doesn't hate him, Braun, has already felt the need to publicly announce that he would be opposed to any effort to expel Romney from the GOP caucus. And he is causing a permanent split within his own family; at the very least he is unlikely to see his niece or her family again. And there may be other Trump supporting family members as well, I don't know. I wonder if there will be an attempt to beat him in his next primary race using his vote here as proof of his lose of influence within his own party? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 This is another way of expressing how I feel. https://twitter.com/petridishes/status/1225147309425668097?s=20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, Kalbear said: This is another way of expressing how I feel. https://twitter.com/petridishes/status/1225147309425668097?s=20 From the Twitter feed you linked to: https://bigleaguepolitics.com/bye-mitt-utah-legislature-prepares-senator-recall-process/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I wonder if there will be an attempt to beat him in his next primary race using his vote here as proof of his lose of influence within his own party? Trump will not be on the ballot in 2024, and his influence with the Republican party may be very different then than it is now. At the very least, I'm skeptical that Trump loyalty will be the #1 issue on Utahans minds in 2024. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Maithanet said: Trump will not be on the ballot in 2024, and his influence with the Republican party may be very different then than it is now. At the very least, I'm skeptical that Trump loyalty will be the #1 issue on Utahans minds in 2024. See my most recent post above. They may not have to wait to attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: See my most recent post above. They may not have to wait to attack. I'm doubtful any effort like that will get anywhere, but I suppose we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 I would recommend reading Romney's speech. It's not bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 he was reading bolt's man for all seasons before he wrote-- Quote For Trump? Why, Mitch, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world . . . But for Trump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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