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I hate Roose Bolton

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Sweetie? You mean Robb? I think all the northern lords save the Karstarks are working to bring Roose down, in part because he betrayed their king but in part because they never really liked him anyway. He's creepy and weird.

I just love everything about this paragraph. @John Suburbs, you have made my day. :rofl:

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40 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Nah, I remember seeing it in another thread. Some guy referred to someone as sweetie and that person had a go at him for calling her sweetie. So he doubled back and said that he was calling Robb sweetie. 

Yeah that was this same person, they just changed their name. 

ETA: Sorry didn't see KBF already answered you. 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, she knows Theon is Ramsay’s plaything, and she knows very well what kind of stuff Ramsay’s into. So she has to feed Theon a story that is both credible and that doesn’t put her position in jeopardy w/ the Boltons. And what she tells Theon achieves both.

@John Suburbs, yeah, as @Lyanna<3Rhaegar said, Robb is now known as Sweetie. :wub:

I see your point. I still think she just wanted to visit Brandons grave and she hates Ned but I could be wrong. 

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18 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

No, she hated Ned. Her reason for finding the crypts was to visit Brandons grave, at least that what she tells Theon (I think). She has no reason to then tell Theon about why she hates Ned and talking about making plans to take Ned's bones on there way back WF. 

Sorry dude, but she's lying. It was a ruse to open up the secret passage into Winterfell. All will be made clear soon, I hope.  ;)

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Meh. I don't know. Just seems another Stark fanboy vs anti Stark thread Nothing's accomplished by rehashing it over and over again. Everyone's going to have their personal opinions, and that's great, but things are never simple.

Robb was an interesting character to me, but he did screw up. Bad. Roose never would've struck at Robb if the blood wasn't already in the water. Had Frey just closed the Twins and declared for Tywin, I would've shrugged and said Robb had it coming for betraying him. The way the Red Wedding went down was excessive though.

The Starks aren't infallible perfect human beings anymore than they're the master villains who oppress downtrodden people like Janos Slynt and Roose Bolton. They're part of an oppressive feudal system, but that's the normal for this setting.

Edited by Lord Lannister

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Traitor, rapist, and a murderer with few tricks up his sleeve that he already used.

He is not what he shows he is, but a weak man who has to leech himself to escape his pathetic reality.

Politically, he is worth next to nothing. One trick pony used by bigger players, usurper of the North, big deal.

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22 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Meh. I don't know. Just seems another Stark fanboy vs anti Stark thread Nothing's accomplished by rehashing it over and over again. Everyone's going to have their personal opinions, and that's great, but things are never simple.

Robb was an interesting character to me, but he did screw up. Bad. Roose never would've struck at Robb if the blood wasn't already in the water. Had Frey just closed the Twins and declared for Tywin, I would've shrugged and said Robb had it coming for betraying him. The way the Red Wedding went down was excessive though.

The Starks aren't infallible perfect human beings anymore than they're the master villains who oppress downtrodden people like Janos Slynt and Roose Bolton. They're part of an oppressive feudal system, but that's the normal for this setting.

Would Robb be any less responsible for his "screw up" if it turns out that both he and Jeyne were dosed with one of Grandma Maggy's love potions?

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5 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Would Robb be any less responsible for his "screw up" if it turns out that both he and Jeyne were dosed with one of Grandma Maggy's love potions?

Interesting question. I think he is probably still as responsible because it was marrying her that went back on his word to Walder. He could have had sex with her & loved her for the rest of his life & still upheld his betrothal. At the end of the day I don't think he married her because he loved her (although he may have) I think he married her because his honor would not allow him to 'dishonor' her. Which would be the case whether he loved her or not I think. 

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13 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Traitor, rapist, and a murderer with few tricks up his sleeve that he already used

Lord Bolton may be amoral. But he is one of best players of the game in Westeros. After all he is one of very few lords in the North that still  has almost full army and assuming that granaries of Dreadfort are full he may even keep himself and some of his men fed very long time. Naturally assuming that he will be smart enough to keep gates and walls of Winterfell well guarded and closed and send unnecessary or unreliable people away to safe some food then he will just have to wait long enough that anyone outside WF will either die or goes away.  Or he should have enough food in WF to outlast anyone outside of castle.

 

14 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He is not what he shows he is, but a weak man who has to leech himself to escape his pathetic reality.

That man has almost wiped out Starks and really weakened most of his potential enemies. So instead of weak I would call him very smart man. Just now Roose Bolton has 2 very strong castles and he should have enough food to outlast his potential enemies. So his chances of success should be very good.

14 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Politically, he is worth next to nothing. One trick pony used by bigger players, usurper of the North, big deal.

Actually unless someone has dragons or Others get through the wall as long as Roose stays in WF and do not do anything stupid like open the gates of WF his position seems very strong.

IMHO Roose has used other players as much those had used him and I do not think that he has been really loyal to anyone except himself and so I assume that he is real player instead of tool.

Besides if lord Bolton survives siege of WF he could always run to Dreadfort and just wait who wins the game and if that winner would be powerful enough to became a danger to him he could made a deal with that person. After all there is always demand of competent governors in Westeros.

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5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Interesting question. I think he is probably still as responsible because it was marrying her that went back on his word to Walder. He could have had sex with her & loved her for the rest of his life & still upheld his betrothal. At the end of the day I don't think he married her because he loved her (although he may have) I think he married her because his honor would not allow him to 'dishonor' her. Which would be the case whether he loved her or not I think. 

A love potion can be a powerful thing, and it doesn't appear that MtF was a fraud. So now we are asking Robb to withstand this artificial, possibly magical, assault on his brain and endocrine system, coupled with his ingrained commitment to duty and honor, in order to do what's right by his kingdom? That's an awfully tall order. I doubt very many men, or women, would be able to overcome that.

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5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Would Robb be any less responsible for his "screw up" if it turns out that both he and Jeyne were dosed with one of Grandma Maggy's love potions?

That's an interesting notion. The short answer is I don't know. It's a hypothetical at this point to be certain. 

Other than having the ability, and perhaps the Westerlings getting off light for their flirtation with the North, I'm not sure how much evidence there is. Maybe Rolph Spicer being named Lord of Castamere would lend weight to this. That would definitely seem a gift with barbs. Then again Ser Raynald freeing Grey Wind and potentially dying during the Red Wedding lends weight against it. 

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4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

A love potion can be a powerful thing, and it doesn't appear that MtF was a fraud. So now we are asking Robb to withstand this artificial, possibly magical, assault on his brain and endocrine system, coupled with his ingrained commitment to duty and honor, in order to do what's right by his kingdom? That's an awfully tall order. I doubt very many men, or women, would be able to overcome that.

So originally I was thinking because it was his honor that essentially led him to marry her & his honor is something ingrained in him & also something a love potion wouldn't affect that he would be just as responsible BUT reading your post I starting thinking that he may have never had sex with her if he hadn't been dosed (assuming he was) & the sex is what led him to marry her so I change my answer. No, he wouldn't be responsible if he was given a love potion. 

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18 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

That's an interesting notion. The short answer is I don't know. It's a hypothetical at this point to be certain. 

Other than having the ability, and perhaps the Westerlings getting off light for their flirtation with the North, I'm not sure how much evidence there is. Maybe Rolph Spicer being named Lord of Castamere would lend weight to this. That would definitely seem a gift with barbs. Then again Ser Raynald freeing Grey Wind and potentially dying during the Red Wedding lends weight against it. 

Well, take a look at the history of house Spicer. First we have the original spice merchant who could have married the daughter of a business partner or a magistrate, most likely from Yi Ti, the spice capital of the Jade Sea, which would have gotten him a nice fat dowry and cemented his business relationships. But instead he takes a strange witch priestess from Asshai by the Shadow, which is known mostly for its trade in amber, dragonglass and other relatively low-value goods. Ultimately, this woman is banished or removes herself from her house and lives as a wretched old hag telling fortunes and selling love potions on the streets of Lannisport.

Then we have the son of this woman who, for no discernible reason, receives a lordship from Tytos Lannister. Now, lordships can be an empty title, as Varys and Petyr B demonstrate, but even these are not handed out for nothing. Kennelmaster Clegane was knighted and given lands and a keep for saving Tytos' life, so a lordship wouldn't require that level of service, but there should be something there -- something more important than introducing a particularly tasty saffron.

Next, we have Sybelle, who manages to land herself a Westerling who has "more honor than sense" by marrying the daughter of an upjumped merchant. Now, his children are not likely to increase the dwindling fortunes of his house because of their low pedigree.

Finally, we have Jeyne who, despite her low pedigree, manages to land not just a powerful lord but a king -- again, one who placed his honor above his kingdom.

So in four generations, the Spicer women have made three lucrative matches to men who should have known better, rising from creepy Asshai priestess to Queen in the North. Quite impressive.

There is also the matter of Jeyne's heart-shaped face. Only two other women are described in this way: Melisandre, creepy weird shadowbinder/whatever from Asshai, and Shiera Seastar, magical-type daughter of Aegon IV and magical-type Serenai of Lys. Shiera was also the object of ardent, even violent, passion from Brynden Bloodraven Rivers and Aegor Bittersteel Rivers.

And finally, if you look close, you can see Robb becoming increasingly cold and distant toward Jeyne as time goes by -- to the point where Jeyne seeks advice about it from Catelyn. Sure, this could just be the pressures of the crown weighing on him, but this girl he was so madly in love with just a few months before is no longer a source of strength and comfort to him -- a pretty rapid turnaround IMO.

Of course, none of this is absolute proof, but it does fit perfectly with Martin's style of seeding the text with clues before revealing it outright -- just enough to make you go hmmmmm.

So before we hang Robb out to dry for making a stupid mistake, I think we ought to give him the benefit of the doubt until all the facts are in. It could very well be that he was not in his right mind when all of this happened.

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15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So originally I was thinking because it was his honor that essentially led him to marry her & his honor is something ingrained in him & also something a love potion wouldn't affect that he would be just as responsible BUT reading your post I starting thinking that he may have never had sex with her if he hadn't been dosed (assuming he was) & the sex is what led him to marry her so I change my answer. No, he wouldn't be responsible if he was given a love potion. 

Even if we do separate the potion-induced act of sleeping with her and the honor-driven decision to marry her, I still don't think we can hold Robb accountable.

I think most people hear "love potion" and think of teenage, crushy puppy love. But MtF is the real deal, so I can imagine her potions are pretty powerful. This would be a love so strong and so obsessive that you will do anything for that person: kill for them, die for them even at your own hand, make any sacrifice to be with them, desire to possess them at all times, never to be parted. It is an overwhelming, all-consuming, painful, aching love that drives people into irrationality.

So IMO, blaming Robb for marrying Jeyne would be like blaming someone under the influence of a truth serum for revealing state secrets. They are drugged, not thinking with their own rational minds, and therefore not responsible for their actions.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Even if we do separate the potion-induced act of sleeping with her and the honor-driven decision to marry her, I still don't think we can hold Robb accountable.

I think most people hear "love potion" and think of teenage, crushy puppy love. But MtF is the real deal, so I can imagine her potions are pretty powerful. This would be a love so strong and so obsessive that you will do anything for that person: kill for them, die for them even at your own hand, make any sacrifice to be with them, desire to possess them at all times, never to be parted. It is an overwhelming, all-consuming, painful, aching love that drives people into irrationality.

So IMO, blaming Robb for marrying Jeyne would be like blaming someone under the influence of a truth serum for revealing state secrets. They are drugged, not thinking with their own rational minds, and therefore not responsible for their actions.

Yeah I get it. To be fair I think Robb would marry her if he had sex with her under a potion or no. So, that's why the potion didn't make a whole lot of difference to me when I first answered. 

It's reasonable to think he might not have slept with her at all knowing he was betrothed to someone else if he were not under the potion. The flip side is he may have just fallen in love with her on his own volition, having never met his betrothed, not even having a name since he hadn't picked anyone yet, being so young etc makes it realistic for him to have fallen into this without a potion as well. 

I agree there are some weird things going on with the Spicer's though.

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah I get it. To be fair I think Robb would marry her if he had sex with her under a potion or no. So, that's why the potion didn't make a whole lot of difference to me when I first answered. 

It's reasonable to think he might not have slept with her at all knowing he was betrothed to someone else if he were not under the potion. The flip side is he may have just fallen in love with her on his own volition, having never met his betrothed, not even having a name since he hadn't picked anyone yet, being so young etc makes it realistic for him to have fallen into this without a potion as well. 

I agree there are some weird things going on with the Spicer's though.

What reason did they have to do what they did? Wouldn't it have been more beneficial for them to have political ties with someone who was, for all intents and purposes, winning the war? Instead, they chose to degrade themselves to Tywin's professional bootlickers, even though he was losing on the battlefield. Which was kinda stupid IMO.

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12 minutes ago, Robb4Ever said:

What reason did they have to do what they did? Wouldn't it have been more beneficial for them to have political ties with someone who was, for all intents and purposes, winning the war? Instead, they chose to degrade themselves to Tywin's professional bootlickers, even though he was losing on the battlefield. Which was kinda stupid IMO.

Sorry, I'm not sure who you are talking about. Are you asking what reason the Spicer's had to do what they did? 

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12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sorry, I'm not sure who you are talking about. Are you asking what reason the Spicer's had to do what they did? 

I think so. That the Spicers should have sided w/ Sweetie instead of kissing Tywin’s bum. 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sorry, I'm not sure who you are talking about. Are you asking what reason the Spicer's had to do what they did? 

Yes, I am asking why they degraded themselves to being professional bootlickers of the man who was losing the war. Tywin even admitted that if it weren't for his arrangement of RW, he would have lost to Robb.

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