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Kevan and Pycelle’s death


Crona

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1 hour ago, Crona said:

Could you tell me what is straw man about the argument.

The dichotomy that you presented, as if no other option was possible.

 

1 hour ago, Crona said:

Which begs the question of why even make Aegon fake, when if he’s real it still makes sense without making the storyline complicated.

The other way round then: why make the murdered baby unrecognisable, why invent the Blackfyres at all and why plant the mummer's dragon?

1 hour ago, Crona said:

i don’t get it, are you saying he killed in this manner to mimic the kids death to throw off Cersei only?

"Only?" He's doing all kinds of things to rob her of sensible advice and allies. Dorne still - at least officially - suppors the IT.

1 hour ago, Crona said:

Even if he done it for this reason only, it still does not prove Aegon is fake, he could still do this even if Aegon is real.

Right. It doesn't point one way or the other.

1 hour ago, Crona said:

we don’t have much information from Varys time during Aerys reign. He seemed to not care for Rhaegar but we don’t know how he felt towards Elia. Perhaps, he felt that his council was rejected and lead to their horrible deaths and feels guilt. He also always talked about Rhaenys and Aegon in a sad or deep tone. Elia found Tyrion cute and was described as having sweet wit, perhaps Varys and her got along. We also don’t know Elia’s mother’s consort, who may be related. We just don’t know yet.

Yep. But we should already have some concealed hints, here and there. Things that seemingly contradict, scattered bits of information here and there... so far, what we have from two independent sources (Barristan and Jaime) who were first-hand witnesses, is that Varys had a negative influence on Aerys and was fuelling his paranoia. Now, was he doing it in order to make Aerys intolerable for everyone, so that Rhaegar could swoop in and save the day? Or was he simply ingratiating himself to the king to gain more power for himself? Was he purposefully creating a volatile situation to bring down the Targaryens?

And still: why so taken with the children? Lots of people speak fondly about Rhaegar and Barristan about Elia. Varys never does - why? What made Rhaenys and Aegon so special that made him care (if he did)?

1 hour ago, Crona said:

Thats really not the argument, Aegon and Rhaenys are just two people he cares for and others not. Going by your example, Cat treating Jon bad would mean that she was a bad mother for her children or would not be able to empathize with Brienne. 

But you see Cat interact with other people, you know that she cares and sympathizes with a whole lot of them. We never, ever, see Varys care about anyone, the single person he seems to have a relationship is Illyrio. Why care about the two dragonling, ho easily could have grown up spoiled entitled brats?

1 hour ago, Crona said:

i don’t think the same thing applies to Varys, I think it only applies to some scenarios. Varys was able to listen to the council meeting undetected, and had kids hidden in the chambers, I am pretty sure he would know if there are others around. Also, if he wasn’t sure of the ears around him then he shouldn’t have said anything, which Varys should know. 

There were ears around, a whole lot of them, the little birds. Yeah, he should have shut up, whether telling the truth or a lie. But he didn't. People sometimes do things they know they shouldn't, they just succumb to their impulses. We just cannot be sure about the truth of it. Now, if you take as a starting premise that if you do talk, you should stay in your role even if you are alone, what does it say about Varys' little speech to the dying Kevan with witnesses around? That if he is following the rules of the game, he is inevitably lying. Is he following the rules? Dunno.

 

2 hours ago, Therae said:

Just to add to this, we also have the vision of the Mummer's Dragon; to be fair, that could suggest a puppet Targaryen as easily as a fake one, but fake seems more likely.

Yes, that too. There are a couple more things, like complete lack of corroboration of the babyswap story from other sources. Compare to the babyswap at the Wall - Gilly is terribly distraught by something Jon told her, keeps crying a lot (whereas, Elia is holding onto a substitute while her own biological daughter is left alone.) We don't encounter a crazy woman wailing for a babe that was sold for arbor wine three books prior we learn about the Pisswater Prince.... nothing.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

We don't encounter a crazy woman wailing for a babe that was sold for arbor wine three books prior we learn about the Pisswater Prince.... nothing.

This element (the absence of wailing mother of the supposed pisswater prince) is incoclusive. What if, for example, that baby's mother died in childbirth, or some time after it, so the father had to take care of that baby on his own, and when he was given an opportunity to get rid of that baby, he did it, by selling the baby to Varys. Maybe the mother or even the father too both got killed during the Sack of KL, thus even if the mother was still alive at the time when the baby was sold, later the absence of the baby didn't became a problem for the mother, because either the mother got killed during the Sack, or the father together with the baby went missing. First he sold the baby, then went drinking, then got killed during the Sack, thus the mother had no idea that her baby was taken away before the Sack, and wasn't killed together with the father at the time of the Sack. There are many possibilitites of what could have happened, but either way the absence of wailing mother doesn't prove or disprove anything.

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8 hours ago, Megorova said:

This element (the absence of wailing mother of the supposed pisswater prince) is incoclusive. What if, for example, that baby's mother died in childbirth, or some time after it, so the father had to take care of that baby on his own, and when he was given an opportunity to get rid of that baby, he did it, by selling the baby to Varys. Maybe the mother or even the father too both got killed during the Sack of KL, thus even if the mother was still alive at the time when the baby was sold, later the absence of the baby didn't became a problem for the mother, because either the mother got killed during the Sack, or the father together with the baby went missing. First he sold the baby, then went drinking, then got killed during the Sack, thus the mother had no idea that her baby was taken away before the Sack, and wasn't killed together with the father at the time of the Sack. There are many possibilitites of what could have happened, but either way the absence of wailing mother doesn't prove or disprove anything.

It was just an example of the way the swap could have been hinted at. Instead, there could have been an old drunkard boasting how, once in his miserable existence, he got to get drunk on arbor gold. - Again, just an example. There could have been something to connect the dots in retrospect. The lack of such hints doesn't mean that Aegon is necessarily fake, it means that he is suspicious, and intentionally written that way.

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One more thing: when Tywin found out that the baby's face had been disfigured and his identity thus uncertain, Pycelle would have been the one approached to confirm the identity. If the baby could be identified as Aegon with certainty, then Tywin had nothing to fear and Pycelle absolutely had to die. If the baby wasn't Aegon or Pycelle was unable to tell, the best course for Tywin would have been to swear Pycelle to silence and proclaim the baby Aegon, solidify his power, wait if Aegon ever comes up with his claim, and then have Pycelle proclaim him as an impostor. In the current situation, with Tywin dead and Cersei bringing house Lannister to ruin, the coward Pycelle might have been convinced to verify that Aegon is the real deal, so, IMHO, a living Pycelle would have been better for the cause. It has been argued that Pycelle was a trusted advisor for Cersei and therefore had to go, but I don't recall her paying much attention to his advice, and unlike Kevan, he had no means to rein her in. Either way, the fact that Pycelle was murdered might be pointing towards Aegon being fake, or Pycelle unsure of the baby's identity at best.

 

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19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Removing the real Aegon & leaving another in his place?

I don't have a problem with him removing the real Aegon - that would show an unexpected loyalty to the dragons, to Rhaegar's line of descent.

The problem I have is with "leaving" another in his place. Another, whose skull had fortuitously been caved in, disguising the baby's features. Elia raped and murdered, Rhaenys stabbed hundreds of times. Varys not going to the trouble of getting Elia and Rhaenys out of there, going to considerable trouble to find a baby that could be brained - paying for it with arbor gold rather than a sliver stag. Did he kill a puppy before that? Has he trained in the art of three spears and short sword, as well as the crossbow and poisons? It seems to me that he couldn't personally care much for any of them, to either leave them to die brutal deaths, or to administer or arrange them to die brutal deaths, whichever. 

The only advantage to this tale is, it gives Aegon or fAegon a reason to believe he is the real deal. Aegon is a bit lacklustre for an 18 year old. He is not as street-smart or as book-smart as Dany or Robb, he is used to being told what to do, he has had a Lord's education, but an indifferent one (Tyrion could put the Half-maester right in half a dozen places, and Haldon doesn't like being answered back,  he has a half-septa too, and a knight can make a knight, so what sort of master at arms is Duck?) I don't think he has a snowflakes chance of getting his bum on the iron throne, for all that Varys can do.

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3 hours ago, Walda said:

The problem I have is with "leaving" another in his place. Another, whose skull had fortuitously been caved in, disguising the baby's features. Elia raped and murdered, Rhaenys stabbed hundreds of times. Varys not going to the trouble of getting Elia and Rhaenys out of there, going to considerable trouble to find a baby that could be brained - paying for it with arbor gold rather than a sliver stag. Did he kill a puppy before that? Has he trained in the art of three spears and short sword, as well as the crossbow and poisons? It seems to me that he couldn't personally care much for any of them, to either leave them to die brutal deaths, or to administer or arrange them to die brutal deaths, whichever. 

Oh I agree it's horrendous, no matter who the baby is. I would assume the reason the baby could get swapped & not Elia & Rhaenys is because Elia & Rhaenys would be easily recognizable. Tywin would have been told that Elia & Rhaenys weren't there, the baby isn't going to be as easy to recognize. Not to mention he would be easier to sneak out. 

 

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7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Instead, there could have been an old drunkard boasting how, once in his miserable existence, he got to get drunk on arbor gold.

Though, if the story with the baby swap is real, then isn't it logical for Varys to poison that wine, to prevent the daddy from revealing one of Varys' greatest secrets? Just an example.

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

There could have been something to connect the dots in retrospect. The lack of such hints doesn't mean that Aegon is necessarily fake, it means that he is suspicious, and intentionally written that way.

Unless Varys got rid of all those dots. Though, you're right - the absence of evidence is not an evidence, just because there was no clues in the previous books to support credibility of that story about baby swap, doesn't mean that there was no baby swap.

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6 hours ago, Walda said:

The problem I have is with "leaving" another in his place. Another, whose skull had fortuitously been caved in, disguising the baby's features. Elia raped and murdered, Rhaenys stabbed hundreds of times. Varys not going to the trouble of getting Elia and Rhaenys out of there, going to considerable trouble to find a baby that could be brained - paying for it with arbor gold rather than a sliver stag. Did he kill a puppy before that? Has he trained in the art of three spears and short sword, as well as the crossbow and poisons? It seems to me that he couldn't personally care much for any of them, to either leave them to die brutal deaths, or to administer or arrange them to die brutal deaths, whichever. 

You can hide one child, but you can't hide two of them. We're told a couple of times that even in her state, Rhaenys was recognizable. And Elia didn't even need to die or be raped for that matter, but Tywin's men are as savage as he is, so that's that. It's really bad luck. If Ned had arrived first to King's Landing, the end result of this might have been completely different.

In any case, Rhaenys wasn't even in the nursery with her mother and brother. And that's where she should have been and I imagine that's where Elia would have wanted her, with her, so that she could try and protect her. Rhaenys was in her father's chambers instead. If Rhaenys was going to die either way, she might as well have died alongside her mother and brother, but she somehow ended up in her father's chambers and there she was murdered. And it doesn't even seem like there were guards protecting the nursery either. 

I think if the baby hadn't gotten his brains bashed in, we would have had a Gaemon Palehair sort of scenario on our hands. 

ETA - There can be a small parallel drawn between what Varys would have tried to accomplish with Aegon, saving him by switching him and keeping Rhaenys back vs him getting Gendry out of King's Landing for his protection but not doing the same with little Barra. Gendry was more dangerous to Cersei because he was a boy and because of his looks. But Barra was just an infant and a girl to boot, so technically, she would not have posed as much danger to Cersei's children, but she had her killed anyway.

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7 hours ago, Walda said:

The problem I have is with "leaving" another in his place. Another, whose skull had fortuitously been caved in, disguising the baby's features.

This is the weakest part of Varys' baby-swap story. I could buy expecting someone to come for Rhaegar's children if the Lannisters got into the city, but how on earth could he have known the Mountain would smash the baby's head in? At that point, even Tywin hadn't realized "what he had" (by which I expect he meant something more like Gregor was too much of a brute to consider that ideally the corpses of assassinated heirs should be easily identifiable, than that he would also rape and murder Elia), and Varys couldn't have even known really that it would be the Mountain who was sent for Aegon.

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I think we may never know whether Young Griff is the "real" Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar.

  • As others have already pointed out, the body of the dead "Aegon" presented to Robert and others was unidentifiable.
  • The only other person who could have verified the baby swap (Elia Martell) is dead.
  • I had not thought of it before, but to the extent that Kevan and Pycelle recall some uniquely identifying feature of the real Aegon, they are now dead too.
  • So the only surviving person who truly knows whether Young Griff is "real" is Varys, who isn't a neutral third-party and can't be trusted on this matter.

I personally believe Young Griff is a fake (maternal Blackfyre descendant or just some random kid), but FWIW

  • GRRM is a huge fan of The Accursed Kings by Maurice Druon, and in that series, there was a baby swap, and the real King survived.
  • As others have already said, the War of the Roses is another inspiration for ASOIAF; and there were two "long-lost heirs come to reclaim their birthrights": Perkin Warbeck and Lambert Simnel. History has deemed them both to be fake, but if you want to have fun with it (this is a novel after all), who's to say they weren't real and were forced to lie like Ned Stark?
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3 hours ago, Therae said:

This is the weakest part of Varys' baby-swap story. I could buy expecting someone to come for Rhaegar's children if the Lannisters got into the city, but how on earth could he have known the Mountain would smash the baby's head in? At that point, even Tywin hadn't realized "what he had" (by which I expect he meant something more like Gregor was too much of a brute to consider that ideally the corpses of assassinated heirs should be easily identifiable, than that he would also rape and murder Elia), and Varys couldn't have even known really that it would be the Mountain who was sent for Aegon.

I guess the logical question if Griff is a fAegon, then when did Varys decide on this plan?  Did he only decide to attempt this after he observed the condition of Aegon's body?

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19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I guess the logical question if Griff is a fAegon, then when did Varys decide on this plan?  Did he only decide to attempt this after he observed the condition of Aegon's body?

If Young Griff is fake, then yes, it's likely Varys decided on the plan after he observed the condition of the real, dead Aegon's body. The fact that the body was not clearly identifiable provides the perfect setup for the plan: it was never definitely proved that the dead body actually Aegon's.

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On 2/4/2020 at 9:57 AM, Crona said:

 

The epilogue chapter of ADWD has the death of Kevan and Pycelle. During this chapter, I believe we find out how Varys truly feels about the Aegon and Rhaenys deaths. @Alexis-something-Rosemay be interested in this topic, feel free to chime in. :)

SNIP

Bravo @Crona   Examining the text and coming up with something that has to do with the existing story. It is nice to see a good thread like this with a genuine new observation about the text.

(I am sick of useless "What if" nonsense and "Character X is 'insert adjective here' " threads. Those are not about the text, those are about opinion.)

Again, bravo!!

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12 hours ago, lehutin said:

GRRM is a huge fan of The Accursed Kings by Maurice Druon, and in that series, there was a baby swap, and the real King survived.

True - but, IIRC, the King then lived the life of a normal child and never came into his inheritance.

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19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I guess the logical question if Griff is a fAegon, then when did Varys decide on this plan?  Did he only decide to attempt this after he observed the condition of Aegon's body?

The plan to spirit away Aegon could have been decided on following Rhaegar's death at the Trident. We know Elia tried to leave King's Landing with her children and accompany Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone, but that Aerys would not allow her to. 

If Elia is trying to leave, it's because she knows her children are in danger of death. It's not like Tywin never had children from a rival family eliminated before. If Varys approached Elia with his plan, the odds that she would jump at the chance of saving her son are pretty good. That's not even mentioning that Varys would have had knowledge of the wildfire plot. 

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26 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The plan to spirit away Aegon could have been decided on following Rhaegar's death at the Trident. We know Elia tried to leave King's Landing with her children and accompany Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone, but that Aerys would not allow her to. 

If Elia is trying to leave, it's because she knows her children are in danger of death. It's not like Tywin never had children from a rival family eliminated before. If Varys approached Elia with her plan, the odds that she would jump at the chance of saving her son are pretty good. That's not even mentioning that Varys would have had knowledge of the wildfire plot. 

I think it was actually very similar to the switch at the Wall. I believe the “Gilly” in this scenario would be Septa Lemore. If Septa Lemore was the wet nurse for Aegon (Elia was noted as having small breasts) then it would mean there would be another infant roughly the same age as Aegon and she does have stretch marks indicating pregnancy. I think she switched her child with Aegon, this would also explain why only one child was switched and Elia protecting the baby as the child would be familiar to her. 

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6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

True - but, IIRC, the King then lived the life of a normal child and never came into his inheritance.

For the most part, yes. However, The Lily And The Lion (the last of the original series) ends with an "epilogue" that concludes the baby swap plot that began earlier in the series. The minimal spoiler tl;dr I can make is that the guy claiming to be the real King really was the real King, but he had no army and couldn't effectively press his claim. So that's already quite different from Young Griff, who has the backing of the Golden Company.

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6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

True - but, IIRC, the King then lived the life of a normal child and never came into his inheritance.

He tried and failed after he learned who he truly was.

The parallels are rather striking there.

Chances are very high that George will have a true 'hidden prince' who is going to turn out to fail - either Aegon or Jon Snow. Because both in the real world as well as in a fantasy world with as realistic power structures as Westeros there is no chance that somebody not raised a prince will ever sit a throne - because these people don't give peasants any power. And anyone raised like Jon or Aegon who doesn't have powerful backers behind them (which Aegon does) would inevitably fail.

On 2/6/2020 at 7:01 AM, Ygrain said:

One more thing: when Tywin found out that the baby's face had been disfigured and his identity thus uncertain, Pycelle would have been the one approached to confirm the identity. If the baby could be identified as Aegon with certainty, then Tywin had nothing to fear and Pycelle absolutely had to die. If the baby wasn't Aegon or Pycelle was unable to tell, the best course for Tywin would have been to swear Pycelle to silence and proclaim the baby Aegon, solidify his power, wait if Aegon ever comes up with his claim, and then have Pycelle proclaim him as an impostor. In the current situation, with Tywin dead and Cersei bringing house Lannister to ruin, the coward Pycelle might have been convinced to verify that Aegon is the real deal, so, IMHO, a living Pycelle would have been better for the cause. It has been argued that Pycelle was a trusted advisor for Cersei and therefore had to go, but I don't recall her paying much attention to his advice, and unlike Kevan, he had no means to rein her in. Either way, the fact that Pycelle was murdered might be pointing towards Aegon being fake, or Pycelle unsure of the baby's identity at best.

There is no indication that Tywin ever cared about identifying Aegon - he was the child Elia died to protect, after all. Also, there is no indication whatsoever that Pycelle knew the babe well enough to be able to identify it. He was the Grand Maester, not the maester of Dragonstone who would have helped with Aegon's and Rhaenys' birth and who would have been the one to care for the children up to the point Elia came to KL with the children - and then she might have brought her own maester with her. Something must have happened to the maester of Dragonstone, anyway - else Cressen, the maester of Storm's End, would have never accompanied Stannis to Dragonstone when Robert made him Lord of Dragonstone.

The Baratheon-Lannister-Tyrell is going to declare Aegon a fake in any case - just as Stannis declared Cersei's children bastards and Cersei declared Shireen a bastard. Nobody would give two groats about the senile Grand Maester and known Lannister toady Pycelle denouncing Aegon as a fake. If Aegon doesn't have military success, he will be a fake. If he wins, he will be Rhaegar's son - no matter what people who claim to have known him as a babe say about him. We would never get a scenario where a victorious Aegon's cause would be undone by a man like Pycelle who claims to have identified the real dead Aegon as a child.

That's a scenario for work where power is portrayed less realistically.

Not to mention, you know, that the ladies and companions and servants of Princess Elia would be the ones to be called upon such a task, anyway, not the Grand Maester. Elia was a Dornish princess and the wife of the Prince of Dragonstone. She would have had dozens of people around her, and not all of them would have been killed during the Sack.

On 2/6/2020 at 3:03 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

You can hide one child, but you can't hide two of them. We're told a couple of times that even in her state, Rhaenys was recognizable. And Elia didn't even need to die or be raped for that matter, but Tywin's men are as savage as he is, so that's that. It's really bad luck. If Ned had arrived first to King's Landing, the end result of this might have been completely different.

In any case, Rhaenys wasn't even in the nursery with her mother and brother. And that's where she should have been and I imagine that's where Elia would have wanted her, with her, so that she could try and protect her. Rhaenys was in her father's chambers instead. If Rhaenys was going to die either way, she might as well have died alongside her mother and brother, but she somehow ended up in her father's chambers and there she was murdered. And it doesn't even seem like there were guards protecting the nursery either. 

I think if the baby hadn't gotten his brains bashed in, we would have had a Gaemon Palehair sort of scenario on our hands. 

ETA - There can be a small parallel drawn between what Varys would have tried to accomplish with Aegon, saving him by switching him and keeping Rhaenys back vs him getting Gendry out of King's Landing for his protection but not doing the same with little Barra. Gendry was more dangerous to Cersei because he was a boy and because of his looks. But Barra was just an infant and a girl to boot, so technically, she would not have posed as much danger to Cersei's children, but she had her killed anyway.

If there was a baby swap then the point could have been to save Aegon both from the victorious rebels as well as from Aerys II's madness. When Elia was not allowed to leave with Rhaella and Viserys (and the king had disinherited Rhaegar's son in favor of his own son, the future Viserys III) she may have started thinking whether her son would be save from the madness of his grandfather. She and her children had already been used as hostages by Aerys II against Dorne, making it not all that likely that the king would spare their lives if push came to shove.

Varys could have offered Elia to swap Aegon for a baby resembling him closely enough to fool both the king and his thugs as well as the rebels who were already threatening the city. If Cersei can think about getting Tommen out of the capital to save him from Stannis, Elia and Varys could do the same.

The Pisswater Prince story just seems to be a nice little story they told Aegon to feel less guilty about the fact that a child to save him. If Varys had a child to pass for Aegon Targaryen it was more likely some slave's child provided by Illyrio, not some child procured by a Kingslander family. In fact, it seems that the point of this story is that Aegon feels a connection with the smallfolk of the Seven Kingdom and especially the poor people of KL.

7 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Why should Varys not tell the truth to Kevan? There was no risk at all that Kevan was ever able to spread it.

He was dying and Varys had all under control to make sure that Kevan really died in time.

The way Varys is presented there does indicate he is telling the truth. His voice changes the same way it does when he tells Tyrion the story about his castration.

One can make a case that he never explicitly say that his Aegon is the son of Rhaegar, but he very much implies that he is.

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1 hour ago, Crona said:

I think it was actually very similar to the switch at the Wall. I believe the “Gilly” in this scenario would be Septa Lemore. If Septa Lemore was the wet nurse for Aegon (Elia was noted as having small breasts) then it would mean there would be another infant roughly the same age as Aegon and she does have stretch marks indicating pregnancy. I think she switched her child with Aegon, this would also explain why only one child was switched and Elia protecting the baby as the child would be familiar to her. 

I have a fairly set speculation about Septa Lemore. Small breasts don't mean a woman doesn't produce milk. It just means they're small. And Cersei is a complete asshole when it comes to other women and the way she views them vs the way she views herself. 

In any case, we have seen Varys sending Gendry away from King's Landing to save him from Cersei. And he was sending him off to the Wall with Ned (Arya I, ACoK 1), who knew who he was and would have protected him just as he had promised Robert he would. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Aegon being put under Jon Connington's protection for longer than a decade. 

It's not like Varys is a novice at this. If he did it with Gendry, he could have done it with Aegon too.

While I think the Blackfyre is the man that Dany has taken into her bed, one thing I can agree with is that this debate is one that will go on even after all the books have been published.

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40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys could have offered Elia to swap Aegon for a baby resembling him closely enough to fool both the king and his thugs as well as the rebels who were already threatening the city.

Or could be that Tywin knew that that baby was not Aegon. We know how "Aegon" supposedly died, based on Ned's memories, but Ned wasn't there, when that happened. So could be that Ned was wrong.

Maybe this is what happened - Tywin sent the Mountain and that other guy to scale the wall of Red Keep, they got into the castle, then from the place that they got in, they went towards the gates, on their way there killing guards, to clear the way for Tywin. They got to the gates and let Tywin and his people into the castle. After that Tywin went after Rhaegar's family. He knew what Aegon looked like, so when he saw that baby with Elia, he realised that that's not Aegon. He asked Elia where is the prince, but she refused to tell him. Thus he ordered the Mountain to rape Elia, to force her to reveal Aegon's whereabouts. But even after that she didn't told them. So Tywin ordered to torture Rhaenys, to force her mother to tell them where's Aegon. They stabbed Rhaenys multiple times and eventually killed her. Then, seeing that Elia won't tell them what they want, they killed her too. And then Tywin ordered the Mountain to kill the boy in such a way, that his body will be unrecognizable. Then Tywin wraped their bodies in crimson cloaks, and brought them into the Throne room to Robert, who by that time had arrived to Red Keep.

When Ned arrived to Red Keep and went into the Throne room, Jaime was there sitting on Iron Throne. After Jaime killed Aerys, Ned was the first person who came into the Throne room. Then Jaime left. Then arrived Robert. Then Tywin brought Elia's and her children's bodies to Robert. Rhaegar asked Jaime to guard his family, thus it's likely that after Jaime left Throne room, he went to check on Elia and her kids, and that's where he found Tywin, and the children by that time were already dead. Jaime told Tywin that he killed Aerys, and that Ned Stark with his people have already arrived. So Tywin went to the Throne room.

Isn't this sort of scenario is a viable possibility?

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