Kevan and Pycelle’s death

[Seams]

On 2/4/2020 at 11:57 AM, Crona said:

Varys tells Kevan that he is doing this for the children:

"Ser Kevan. Forgive me if you can. I bear you no ill will. This was not done from malice. It was for the realm. For the children."

I have always wondered who the children were, but what if he meant Rhaenys and Aegon as "the children?"

 

 

On 2/5/2020 at 2:16 AM, Walda said:

It is a great catch - Pycelle and Kevan mimic the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys. 

Except, Aegon isn't dead, according to Varys. 

There is a 'for the children' theme with Ned as well as Varys, and we know in Ned's case, when he crossed his fingers and wrote 'heir' rather than 'son, Joffrey', telling himself that he was doing it 'for the children'... well, it didn't do much good for any children

I've been turning over in my mind this "for the children" motivation, and I think you have both raised some really interesting points.  What struck me is not a parallel between the deaths of Kevan and Pycelle with the deaths of Aegon an Rhaenys, but a parallel between Kevan/Pycelle and the deaths of Craster and Lord Commander Mormont.

We suspect that Craster's sons are being turned into wights or White Walkers or Others. What if the "for the children" phrase evokes a parallel to these monster "children" beyond the Wall? Bolstering the ranks of a force set to invade Westeros? I can see Varys as part of a huge scheme to undermine the entire civilization.

Craster and L. C. Mormont are killed by Night's Watch mutineers, a double-cross, sort of like the Lannister bannermen killing the royal family and/or Varys killing two fellow members of the small council. But there are details that tell us that the deaths of Craster and Mormont are inflicted with specific symbolism in mind. As is often the case, this is a little convoluted:

• Remember when Asha finally reveals that she is Theon's sister? To show him how tough and Ironborn she is, she tells him that an axe is her wedded husband and a dirk is her suckling babe.
• The axe is part of a throwing and catching game played by the Ironborn, so we know we are getting a big hint about the Game of Thrones when Asha skillfully catches the axe in mid-air. I think it's fair to say that Varys is engaging in the GoT when he takes out two of the Lannisters' key game pieces, Kevan and Pycelle.
• The guy who kills Craster is named Dirk.
• In other words, Craster is killed by a suckling babe. He is maybe even (symbolically) killed by an envoy of Asha Greyjoy. (But I need to see more chapters about Asha to understand why that might be the case.)

On 2/5/2020 at 2:16 AM, Walda said:

Also, I don't think Pycelle was clobbered by a crossbow administered by Varys, but by the huge iron reading candle stick, administered by the mute girl, the 'sweet child' that brought him his sweet milk and tended him so faithfully over the first five books.  That is why there were rivers of wax in his brains. It also means that both he and Kevan were killed by the children, not Varys.

Very nice catch. Love this. 

The mess of brains and wax also evokes that Asha scene with the axe and the dirk. I believe Asha uses the axe to destroy the bread trencher filled with chowder that Theon has in front of him, splashing chowder all over the nice outfit Theon selected to wear for the feast. I have suspected that this foreshadowed the castration of Theon and that may still be true. But there is also bread / beard wordplay. The destruction of the loaf of bread in front of Theon is probably connected to the cutting of Pycelle's beard in the earlier situation where Tyrion confronts Pycelle.

Remember the reason for Tyrion's anger toward Pycelle? The maester revealed the secret plan to create an alliance by marriage through Princess Myrcella; a plan that resulted in Myrcella being sent to (we believe for a time) a safe place away from the Battle of the Blackwater, bread riots and other threats around King's Landing.

I believe Tommen and Myrcella (not Kevan and Pycelle) are parallels for Aegon and Rhaenys.

More on the "for the children" line of thinking:

I don't want to leave out the kitchen sink, so I will also say that I don't believe Gregor Clegane killed the baby prince or raped Elia. My only evidence for this, really, is that he technically survived the trial by combat with Prince Oberyn. If he were guilty of the crime to which he confessed, he would have died. I think he confessed because he was still honoring a promise to keep the secret of the survival of the prince and the queen. So Young Griff and Septa Lemore are looking more and more legit to me.

I'm not sure what to do with this "evidence" but I think it's also important that Ser Gregor was knighted by Prince Rhaegar. Is he the only person we know of who was knighted by Rhaegar? There is a kind of magic handed down from the person doing the knighting to the person receiving the knighthood. Somehow, I don't think Gregor could have killed Rhaegar's family. Vague, I realize. I hope to put together more pieces about this knighthood magic over future re-reads.

On a similar note, Sandor Clegane wins the trial by combat with Beric Dondarrion, proving that he did not kill Arya's friend, Mycah. Mycah is the butcher's boy, and butcher kings are an ongoing motif in the books. Recall that Mycah was forced to engage in "combat" with Joffrey Baratheon. Mycah's supposed death takes place near the Ruby Crossing of the Red Fork, where Robert killed Rhaegar. I think Mycah is a symbolic Rhaegar.

I admit, I can't reconcile the description of Mycah's body slung over the back of Sandor's horse with the idea that Sandor didn't actually kill Mycah. Maybe my hunch about the truth of "verdicts" in trial by combat is completely wrong. Or maybe Mycah only symbolically survives or he is reborn - a very convenient excuse for all of my theories that might not pan out!

Anyway. This "for the children" phrase could be a major key to working out some of the symbolism that weaves together disparate characters and threads.

[Lord Varys]

On 2/5/2020 at 6:11 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The Martells are not scheming to seat themselves on the Iron Throne, but they are scheming to have one of their own become queen, with the pact of Arianne/Viserys or having Quentyn become Dany's consort. So it's not like there isn't something going on there. 

Yeah, but that's completely different from seating Arianne or Quentyn on the Iron Throne because they descend, like Doran and Oberyn, from King Aegon IV Targaryen, right? It is the same as Tywin scheming to make Cersei queen, or Mace scheming to make Margaery queen. It is a ploy to get close to the throne and wield great influence at court, perhaps even control policies for a time, but it is not a plan to make a Martell a monarch sitting the Iron Throne.

You can take other examples - there are Stark cousins in the Vale who are effectively next in line to Winterfell now that Eddard Stark's line is about to die - or has already been extinguished in the male line as far as the people in the Vale know. But are there any Waynwoods, Corbrays or Templetons scheming to lay claim to Winterfell and the North? Not as far as we know.

Also, the Targaryen-Baratheons are down to Shireen for Stannis and Myrcella for Tommen - do any Targaryen cousins (who would be the presumptive heirs of both Myrcella and Shireen Baratheon) prepare for the moment when they might get a shot at the throne? Not as far as we know, either. There should be people like Harry the Heir for Myrcella/Shireen - and if they are male they should prepare for the moment to push aside the minor female, because women do not sit the Iron Throne in the Seven Kingdoms.

All this makes it exceedingly unlikely that more distant cousins - like some Blackfyres, let alone cadet branches founded in the 1st or 2nd century AC would dream about a shot at the Iron Throne. That would be worse than Brown Ben Plumm planning to become King of Westeros.

And there are quite a few such cadet branches - there are the Tarths, the Penroses, the Plumms, the Martells - and there are potentially as many as six unknown houses if we consider the six daughters of Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower - the children of these women would all have their claim to the Iron Throne, too.

On 2/5/2020 at 6:11 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

As far as the Golden Company goes, the men want to go home. They were willing to go to Westeros with Viserys of all people leading them there. Jon Connington who is staunch of Targaryen became one of their members. I think things may have changed since the days of Aegor Rivers and Maelys the Monstrous.

There is some sort of blood contract between Illyrio and Myles Toyne. No idea what exactly, but the reason why the Golden Company play their part in the Aegon plan has nothing to do with them wanting to go home. They also want to go home, yes, but their captain-general didn't make his deal with Illyrio just because they wanted to go 'home'.

On 2/5/2020 at 6:11 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Would they, though? Saera's sons were all bastards. 

Saera's present-day descendants most likely wouldn't even know who Saera was. They would be about as 'royal' as Rennifer Longwaters is royal - whose bloodline is very Valyrian, actually, considering he is the descendant of a bastard son of Alyn Oakenfist by Princess Elaena Targaryen.

Depending how the Old Blood of Volantis deal with bastards Saera's descendants by way of the triarch's son might still be around in some capacity, and if George feels like it and Dany hangs out in Volantis for some time then Saera's stay there might actually be addressed in a future novel - the slavers would very likely bring such a kinship up to save their skins - but chances are very low that this matters much.

 

[lehutin]

22 hours ago, Seams said:

I don't want to leave out the kitchen sink, so I will also say that I don't believe Gregor Clegane killed the baby prince or raped Elia. My only evidence for this, really, is that he technically survived the trial by combat with Prince Oberyn. If he were guilty of the crime to which he confessed, he would have died. I think he confessed because he was still honoring a promise to keep the secret of the survival of the prince and the queen. So Young Griff and Septa Lemore are looking more and more legit to me.

Wait a minute, do you actually believe that the Gods directly determine the outcomes of Trials by Combat, as opposed to simply whoever wins was the better fighter (or the fighter that didn't make as many fatal mistakes)?

[Seams]

6 hours ago, lehutin said:

Wait a minute, do you actually believe that the Gods directly determine the outcomes of Trials by Combat, as opposed to simply whoever wins was the better fighter (or the fighter that didn't make as many fatal mistakes)?

Um, well. It's fiction so I don't actually believe in trials by combat, no.

Within the context of GRRM's world, however, I have come to suspect that trials by combat (and Trials of Seven) really do give us clues about guilt and innocence.

This aligns with examination of jousting and other tourney winners and losers. Those contests seem to indicate how the Game of Thrones will play out for the next generation or two.

And tourneys are a special example of the larger game of thrones symbolism in the series, with cyvasse, lord of the crossing, come into my castle, monsters and maidens and other games providing clues about conflict and victory for the characters.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Within the context of GRRM's world, however, I have come to suspect that trials by combat (and Trials of Seven) really do give us clues about guilt and innocence.

 

Are we to suppose then yo believe that Maegor was the rightful King of Westeros, orTyrion is guilty of killing Joffrey??

[lehutin]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Um, well. It's fiction so I don't actually believe in trials by combat, no.

 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

 Within the context of GRRM's world, however, I have come to suspect that trials by combat (and Trials of Seven) really do give us clues about guilt and innocence.

OK, so going back to your example of Tyrion's (second) trial by combat, it was Tyrion on trial. Not Gregor. So given that Tyrion lost his trial, do you believe that Tyrion poisoned Joffrey?

 

Going back to your example of Sandor's trial by combat, Sandor wasn't on trial for killing Mycah. Sandor admitted that he killed Mycah. The "trial" was about whether the killing was justified (as Sandor claimed) or unjustified murder (as Arya claimed).

 

Given that Sandor won his trial, do you believe that the killing was justified (i.e. Mycah attacked Joffrey)?

[Seams]

@frenin and @lehutin I do not want to derail this discussion, which focuses on the deaths of Kevan and Pycelle. I encourage either one or both of you to start a new thread on whether trials by combat are predictive of guilt or innocence. I bet others would like to discuss the examples you cite.

[lehutin]

Just now, Seams said:

@frenin and @lehutin I do not want to derail this discussion, which focuses on the deaths of Kevan and Pycelle. I encourage either one or both of you to start a new thread on whether trials by combat are predictive of guilt or innocence. I bet others would like to discuss the examples you cite.

???

 

You're the one who gave those examples in this thread to support your claim that the Gods actually directly influence the outcomes of Trials by Combat. If you didn't want others to pick apart your argument, then...you shouldn't have made it.

[Seams]

1 hour ago, lehutin said:

???

 

You're the one who gave those examples in this thread to support your claim that the Gods actually directly influence the outcomes of Trials by Combat. If you didn't want others to pick apart your argument, then...you shouldn't have made it.

My comments were intended to shed light on the "for the children" motive mentioned in the OP. Because the deaths of Kevan and Pycelle were compared to the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys, I threw in information I thought was relevant to that situation. You are mistaken if you thought I was trying to change the focus of the thread.

But no reason to get all italicized and bolded and even underlined. If you want to discuss a different topic, there is no charge for starting a new thread. Run along now.

[lehutin]

58 minutes ago, Seams said:

You are mistaken if you thought I was trying to change the focus of the thread.

You know, there's an easier option that you're not considering here. Instead of trying so hard to snark and sound all wicked smaht, you could have just repeated what you said earlier:

 

On 2/8/2020 at 12:41 PM, Seams said:

Maybe my hunch about the truth of "verdicts" in trial by combat is completely wrong.

 

You could have even thrown in some of your snark by prefacing it with, "maybe you didn't see this, but I said..."

 

Instead, you made a bizarre argument, and then when you got called out on how bad it was, you accused the people calling you out of derailing the thread. As if you weren't the one who made the argument and gave the examples.

 

Whatever. Thankfully the forum has an ignore list.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, lehutin said:

You know, there's an easier option that you're not considering here. Instead of trying so hard to snark and sound all wicked smaht, you could have just repeated what you said earlier

Or you could have just reread the comment. Why should he have to repeat himself when it is written down for all to read, again & again if they so wish? 

[lehutin]

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Or you could have just reread the comment. Why should he have to repeat himself when it is written down for all to read, again & again if they so wish? 

Strange. He didn't seem to have any problems "repeating himself" when he chose to double down on his argument in his first reply to me. Nor did you seem to have any problems with his "repeating himself" then.

 

Really, the reactions from the two of you are so bizarre to me. I just asked him a question. I didn't think I was being rude or impolite, but perhaps the two of you did?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, lehutin said:

Strange. He didn't seem to have any problems "repeating himself" when he chose to double down on his argument in his first reply to me. Nor did you seem to have any problems with his "repeating himself" then.

 

Really, the reactions from the two of you are so bizarre to me. I just asked him a question. I didn't think I was being rude or impolite, but perhaps the two of you did?

This is the first time I've spoke to you as far as I know so it's "strange" that you presume to know what I do or don't have a problem with. 

Yes, I did think your question was rude & impolite but what I thought was really rude was for you to say he should have repeated himself in order to de-escalate the situation. 

Clearly, he already stated it once so it was there for you to read. Of course if he or you or anyone else would like to repeat themselves they are completely within their rights to do so, but no one is under any obligation to repeat themselves simply because you needed to see it written again. 

[lehutin]

6 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is the first time I've spoke to you as far as I know so it's "strange" that you presume to know what I do or don't have a problem with.

Well, looks like this is the last time you'll be responding to me since the two of you are clearly birds of a feather.

 

For the record, I apologize if you misunderstood my question. I wasn't trying to be rude. I didn't call him any names. I just asked a question.

 

But I'm definitely not apologizing to you or him for what you consider "really rude." You even offhandedly admit that by that point, the cough "situation" had "escalated," yet you point fingers exclusively in my direction. No thanks. Bye.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 2/8/2020 at 11:56 PM, Lord Varys said:

There is some sort of blood contract between Illyrio and Myles Toyne. No idea what exactly, but the reason why the Golden Company play their part in the Aegon plan has nothing to do with them wanting to go home. They also want to go home, yes, but their captain-general didn't make his deal with Illyrio just because they wanted to go 'home'.

I don't know about this whole contracts writ in blood situation Illyrio mentions. 

One thing has sort of stood out a bit and that's Jon Connington's vow that he will make Varys pay for everything that he's done. Granted, Illyrio wasn't in King's Landing whispering in Aerys's ear and we don't know what other things he's done, although I do have a bit of an inkling about the other things Jon Connington might be blaming Varys for. 

Thing is, Illyrio is in on Varys's plotting to place Aegon on the throne. He is there when Varys recruits Jon Connington. I imagine this contract Illyrio mentions was signed once Jon Conn became part of this plot. Illyrio likely put up Aegon until Jon Conn took over. Illyrio has been pulling strings as much as Varys has. So what gives? I get that Connington might have more hatred for Varys than he does for Illyrio because of the nature of his work, but Varys also saved Rhaegar's son and heir, or allegedly saved, whichever one prefers.

I guess if I'm Jon Connington and I'm looking at how this Aegon situation unfolded, I would take a long hard look at Illyrio and his role in this and he simply isn't, which makes me wonder if it's because Illyrio was already a known variable to Connington.

[lehutin]

59 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

One thing has sort of stood out a bit and that's Jon Connington's vow that he will make Varys pay for everything that he's done. Granted, Illyrio wasn't in King's Landing whispering in Aerys's ear and we don't know what other things he's done, although I do have a bit of an inkling about the other things Jon Connington might be blaming Varys for. 

 

I thought JonCon held a grudge against Varys because Varys forced him to accept a very unflattering and negative "official story": JonCon was caught stealing from the Golden Company and died a disgraced drunk.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

4 minutes ago, lehutin said:

I thought JonCon held a grudge against Varys because Varys forced him to accept a very unflattering and negative "official story": JonCon was caught stealing from the Golden Company and died a disgraced drunk.

Yes. That is part of it and I should have clarified that in my original post. But for some reason I assume that everyone can read my mind when I post. I honestly don't know why I do that.

This is the full quote;

[snip] So far as most of them were concerned, Connington had drunk himself to dead in Lys after being driven from the company in disgrace for stealing from the war chest. The shame of the lie still stuck in his craw, but Varys had insisted it was necessary. "We want no songs about the gallant exile," the eunuch had tittered, in that mincing voice of his. "Those who die heroic death are long remembered, thieves and drunks and cravens soon forgotten."
What does a eunuch know of a man's honor? Griff had gone along with the Spider's scheme for the boy's sake, but that did not mean he liked it any better. Let me live long enough to see the boy sit the Iron Throne, and Varys will pay for that slight and so much more. Then we'll see who's soon forgotten. (The Lost Lord, ADwD 24)

[lehutin]

14 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Yes. That is part of it and I should have clarified that in my original post. But for some reason I assume that everyone can read my mind when I post. I honestly don't know why I do that.

This is the full quote;

[snip] So far as most of them were concerned, Connington had drunk himself to dead in Lys after being driven from the company in disgrace for stealing from the war chest. The shame of the lie still stuck in his craw, but Varys had insisted it was necessary. "We want no songs about the gallant exile," the eunuch had tittered, in that mincing voice of his. "Those who die heroic death are long remembered, thieves and drunks and cravens soon forgotten."
What does a eunuch know of a man's honor? Griff had gone along with the Spider's scheme for the boy's sake, but that did not mean he liked it any better. Let me live long enough to see the boy sit the Iron Throne, and Varys will pay for that slight and so much more. Then we'll see who's soon forgotten. (The Lost Lord, ADwD 24)

Ah, fair enough, I don't know what the "so much more" slights are referring to.

[The Fresh PtwP]

OP this is one of the best, new finds I've seen in awhile. Nice work.

and i'm adding this to the "Stop the f/" movement, and " I Believe in Harvey Dent "uh... Varys