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Alyn Oakenfist

Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

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Just to get things out of the water, had he done that there would be many, many things very, very with it (and quite a lot of prison years in our world). However what I'm asking is why did Tyrion decide not to go through with it. There are probably 3 plausible reasons that might have influenced him:

1. Sansa's innocence

2. Her clear revulsion and unwillingness to do it (even though she doesn't say it, it's all too obvious)

3. Spitting Tywin by not doing it.

I'm personally not sure which one of them it's intended to be, probably a mix of all 3, but what I think what weighed in the most for Tyrion was Sansa's fear and revulsion.

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Nah, nr 2 had a spurring effect on him, the slave girls he rapes in Essos are revolted and that doesn't stop him but rather the opposite.

Nr 1 doesn't work either, if it were down to Sansas innocence maybe he wouldn't force her to undress and all that.

Nr 3 is what I think lies closest to the truth - adding that Tywin already made him rape a wife so I propose; nr 4 he can't do it because it re-enacts the Tysha trauma and Tyrion doesn't want that for himself.

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9 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Nah, nr 2 had a spurring effect on him, the slave girls he rapes in Essos are revolted and that doesn't stop him but rather the opposite.

Nr 1 doesn't work either, if it were down to Sansas innocence maybe he wouldn't force her to undress and all that.

Nr 3 is what I think lies closest to the truth - adding that Tywin already made him rape a wife so I propose; nr 4 he can't do it because it re-enacts the Tysha trauma and Tyrion doesn't want that for himself.

Sansa is noble, which means Tyrion thinks of her as a fellow human being.  He doesn't view the Eastern slaves in the same light.

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I have written about the Tyrion- Sansa wedding night lately in many threads in great detail already. So I guess I will be mostly repeating myself in this thread, but well...

Tyrion is a smart man and he is also quite well capable of empathy (bastards, cripples and broken things). So what is actually interesting is that Tyrion is well aware of three things before even agreeing to marry Sansa:

1. this is cruel to her ("That seems singularly cruel. Even for you, Father.” " )--> the whole situation, she is forced into it->therefore she does not content, she is a prisoner, she will forever be separated from her family, marry into the family, who murdered her father before her eyes, has betrayed her trust and has severely abused/beaten her up and threatened her (yes, this was mostly done by Cersei and Joffrey, but Tyrion also never goes out of his way to make sure Sansa is save from Joffrey, before he accidentally walks into one of her beatings, even though he not blind to the possibility of Joff abusing Sansa "I suspect Martell will treat Myrcella more kindly than Joffrey has treated Sansa Stark." 

2. she is a child ("She is no more than a child.”) --> he knows she is to young for all of this, therefore he should know, that regardless of anything else she is not ready for any of this. And sexual desire towards any man should not be expected of her. (the most she has done up until her wedding day is fantasizing about kissing Loras Tyrell and caressing his chest- very normal 12 year old girl fantasy, but she hasn't even kissed a boy before)

3. regardless of anything else she would also never want him/ he is not what she had envisioned ("Soft-spoken sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces.")

 

So he knows fully well that none of this is consensual (not even by the weird standards of Westeros) going into it and wrong given she is still a child, but he is still planing to go through with the consummation. So her unwillingness (also she can't outright say it, she has to obey her husband by law, she doesn't get to chose and Tyrion knows that) is not the reason, he isn't dumb, he knows she is unwilling, also not her innocence, since he is also very aware, that she is a child.

Sansa cries during the wedding ceremony, refuses to bend the knee for him (even though always being obedient otherwise) and when they are alone she is shaking so much she has trouble undressing. Again Tyrion is not dumb, he is fully aware of how wrong this is and that she doesn't want it. 

All of the things he knew prior already are confirmed again on the wedding night:

1.He looks at her and tells her: " “You’re a child,” he said." She tells him her age and and he says " “Gods have mercy.” The dwarf took another swallow of wine. “Well, talk won’t make you older." " (waiting would have though)

2. this is cruel to her; she tells him with words she is frightened. “A child,” he repeated, “but I want you. Does that frighten you, Sansa?” “Yes.” But instead of  listening to her yes, stopping right there or at least asking her about her fear. He than replies, he is frightened too putting his "fear" on the same level with hers, starting to talk about his insecurities wanting the frightened 12 year old forced child-bride to comfort him about them, right before he is about to rape her, which is just absurd. This tells me again, that she, as a person and her fear and needs as a child really don't matter that much to him, at least not nearly as much as his own insecurities.

3. When she doesn't know how to answer, he says : " “I understand,” he said bitterly." so again it is confirmed she is not attracted to him, what he already knew before.

 

But after all of this he still tells her to get on the bed, tells her "No", when she wants to cover herself with a blanket and gropes her breast. 

Just then, when she lays there with her eyes closed, while he touches her, he stops. Since he was fully aware of her innocence and age, her not wanting any of this, her fear and her not being attracted to him and he still took it this far.

So IMO the main reason he stops is because she is reminding him, through her actions (laying there with her eyes closed, shuddering at his touch, not telling him something nice about his looks) to much of his own insecurities, with other words she doesn't make him feel good about himself, like a prostitute would and that's to much for him to bear.

Sticking it to Tywin however might be an added bonus as well. Since he makes no attempts whatsoever to fake the consummation, which would have been the easiest thing in the world (and a good way to protect Sansa), and he also doesn't even try to deny the fact to his father, that he didn't consummate the marriage. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

When she doesn't know how to answer, he says : " “I understand,” he said bitterly." so again it is confirmed she is not attracted to him, what he already knew before

I agree with your whole post. The only thing I would add is that here he is "bitter" when he has no right to be. He is bitter because he thinks she doesn't want him because he is a dwarf & not handsome but in all reality she probably wouldn't have "wanted" any man under these same conditions & he is so wrapped up in his own pity & self-loathing to even consider that. 

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Tyrion’s thoughts on the situation... 

Quote

And their nights together in the great bed were another source of torment. He could no longer bear to sleep naked, as had been his custom. His wife was too well trained ever to say an unkind word, but the revulsion in her eyes whenever she looked on his body was more than he could bear. Tyrion had commanded Sansa to wear a sleeping shift as well. I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust. 

Tyrion wants reciprocal love, and, though he knows he’s deluding himself into thinking she could ever give it to him, he wants it from his wife, from Sansa. 

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7 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Tyrion’s thoughts on the situation... 

Tyrion wants reciprocal love, and, though he knows he’s deluding himself into thinking she could ever give it to him, he wants it from his wife, from Sansa. 

Isn't it a little creepy & unwarranted to recognize she is just a child & to still want her though? 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree with your whole post. The only thing I would add is that here he is "bitter" when he has no right to be. He is bitter because he thinks she doesn't want him because he is a dwarf & not handsome but in all reality she probably wouldn't have "wanted" any man under these same conditions & he is so wrapped up in his own pity & self-loathing to even consider that. 

Yeah, which is so weird since, he is aware of her being a child and the whole situation being cruel, but when it is just her and him naked it's his own insecurities, that weigh the most heavy to him.

Edited by Nagini's Neville
spelling

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26 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Tyrion’s thoughts on the situation... 

Tyrion wants reciprocal love, and, though he knows he’s deluding himself into thinking she could ever give it to him, he wants it from his wife, from Sansa. 

It's so fucking self-centered and cruel to want this from her given her age and situation, which he is both well aware of.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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51 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Isn't it a little creepy & unwarranted to recognize she is just a child & to still want her though? 

That's what Tyrion seems to think too. He always was a man with great lust (probably derived from the fact that women were always rejecting him), however he also always craved a reciprocal, loving relation and was quite capable of deceiving himself in that regard, as we see from the Shae story. So he's really torn between his lust for Sansa, him trying to delude himself that maybe Sansa cares for him, despite every rational urge that tells him otherwise. In the end I think Sansa's fear combined with his memory of Tysha's rape made him stop, realising he couldn't have a normal relationship with her. That's the reason for the final dialogue of the chapter, when we see Tyrion's hope that someday Sansa will love or at least tolerate him. A particular side effect of his wedding is him deceiving himself even more that his relationship with Shae is anything more then prostitution.

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Combination of everything , she was too young , Sansa suffers and Tirion shows empathy , He knows that she feels disgust towards him, plot armour , provoking his father.


 

 

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree with your whole post. The only thing I would add is that here he is "bitter" when he has no right to be. He is bitter because he thinks she doesn't want him because he is a dwarf & not handsome but in all reality she probably wouldn't have "wanted" any man under these same conditions & he is so wrapped up in his own pity & self-loathing to even consider that. 

Well, Tyrion is a manchild, a very curious pathology that half, being quite generous here,  the male nobles, including his father, suffer.

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

In the end I think Sansa's fear combined with his memory of Tysha's rape made him stop, realising he couldn't have a normal relationship with her. That's the reason for the final dialogue of the chapter, when we see Tyrion's hope that someday Sansa will love or at least tolerate him. A particular side effect of his wedding is him deceiving himself even more that his relationship with Shae is anything more then prostitution.

Why did he take it so far then however? He must have been crazy deluded to think she was not afraid, she even tells him and he still molests her. Similar with Shae, he knows the whole time she is a prostitute. Tyrion has a heart for "bastards cripples and broken things", expect, when it comes the women he wants to sleep with, then he puts his needs above everything else and he stops looking at them as human beings, who suffer as well and have needs themselves. The same thing with the salve girl.

 

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Because courtesy is a lady's armor; and Sansa was courteous.

Or, to but it another way, because he prefers happy love-sex (when he can get it), and because he was not yet angry enough to rape her.

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5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Well, Tyrion is a manchild, a very curious pathology that half, being quite generous here,  the male nobles, including his father, suffer.

Not all menchildren molest and plan to rape afraid 12 year olds however or rape slave girls or kill prostitutes 

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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Not all menchildren molest and plan to rape afraid 12 year olds however or rape slave girls or kill prostitutes 

Never said otherwise, but Tyrion and his actions and reasonings are  ones of a entitled manchild. 

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3 minutes ago, frenin said:

Never said otherwise, but Tyrion and his actions and reasonings are  ones of a entitled manchild. 

Oh okay, I guess I have to apologize to some people, I've called menchildren before - never thought that was quite so serious 

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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Oh okay, I guess I have to apologize to some people, I've called menchildren before - never thought that was quite so serious 

Not at all, lmao. I guess we're just not understanding each other. Prolly your idea is correct but i think that Tyrion's inmaturity about certains aspects of himself qualify to call him manchild and that there are a lot of very emotionally inmatures men with too power, influence or skill at arms around Westeros. 

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3 minutes ago, frenin said:

Not at all, lmao. I guess we're just not understanding each other. Prolly your idea is correct but i think that Tyrion's inmaturity about certains aspects of himself qualify to call him manchild and that there are a lot of very emotionally inmatures men with too power, influence or skill at arms around Westeros. 

I see what you mean. For me there is just a big difference between being immature and being cruel. Robb was immature, when sleeping with Jeyne, Sansa when being in love with Joffrey. Of course they also had a reason to be immature, because of their age.

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