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Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?


Alyn Oakenfist

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6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The Starks would vehemently disagree. Just as wrong as murdering Ned and the RW. They murdered her father, based on the accusation of being a traitor, which he was not. It was her father's right to give her away in marriage and to choose a good husband for her and to choose the time of the marriage. They kept her prisoner based on the accusation, that her father was a traitor, which he wasn't. They maliciously murdered her mother and brother, taking their right away to marry her off. And with forcing her into marriage with Tyrion, they are doing the same thing they did with the RW, conquering WF in another way, than on the battle field. Taking away Bran's right or possibly Jon's (as the heir) to find Sansa a good husband.

Oh for sure but Tyrion didn't do any of those things. Those were the doings of Cersei, Joffrey, Tywin, The Freys & The Boltons & while I completely understand why Sansa would not see Tyrion any differently than any other Lannister, we know he didn't partake or have any hand in those things. 

Marrying Sansa to Tyrion wouldn't take away Bran or Rickon's right to WF, the believe Sansa is the heir because they think Bran & Rickon are dead. If they show up, their right trumps hers. Jon would never be in the line of succession unless he is legitimized (in which case he would go ahead of Sansa, making the marriage worth nothing) or possibly if every other Stark child is dead, even then though I think some cousin or something would be next in line. 

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Even within universe this is a big crime (against the Starks) and Tyrion is participating whether he wants it or not, it is even worse for him in some ways, because he has sworn a sacred oath to her mother to return Sansa to her family. 

So, I agree Tyrion didn't do everything he could for Sansa but I don't think he is to blame for the crimes against the Starks. He's a Lannister & Master of Coin so he has some sway, but he isn't a particularly favored Lannister & actively plotting against his family would only serve to get him killed. Cersei has no qualms against sending someone to kill him & Tywin was going to allow him to be sent to the wall at the least, & be executed at worst, for something he didn't do. 

I don't blame him for not swooping in & removing Sansa & returning her to her family immediately because I think that ploy would have to be done carefully & would take time. There isn't any evidence to suggest he ever planned on doing that though. In his defense she doesn't have any family left except a bastard brother at the Wall, he could hardly send her there. 

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

My biggest problem with Tyrion here is that he absolutely knows this is wrong and cruel to her. He says and thinks it multiple time before he molests Sansa.  So I just don't understand how we keep given him leeway here.

I'm not giving him leeway here, I've said this is my issue also. 

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He is not some dumb little child, who had a gun against his head and accidentally touched her breast. Whether it is culturally wrong or not (I'm still convinced a lot of in-universe-good men would view it as very wrong to touch a 12-year old forced child bride, we only ever see Ramsey do that) he knows she is a child, it's cruel, she doesn't want him. The thing is that he isn't Victarion or Drogo or Ramesy or Gregor or even Theon before Reek. And if he was, we wouldn't even have this discussion. I also think Tyrion is aware, that it's a crime against the Starks and Sansa herself. He's not dumb.

Yeah, he is very smart. He knows she has married him against her will but really the only thing he can do about that is let her be forced to marry another Lannister. I initially commended him for marrying her, thinking he would be the kindest to her & if it is him or another, why not him? But then he took things too far on the wedding night & it is just bothersome. I don't think touching a 12 year old, or even having sex with her, is a crime in universe. There are likely any number of men that would refuse to consummate the marriage until the child is older (at least I hope) but she has flowered & that seems to be the only stipulation for a girl being old enough to consummate. 

I agree he knows she hates the Lannisters, knows she has every reason to, knows she is a child etc & that's what makes it so hard to swallow. He knows there have been crimes committed against the Starks & is complicit in the forced marriage definitely. I could & do  forgive him for that though, given the circumstances. 

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 Just as wrong as lot of other things in universe. Dany also frees the slaves, the Hound doesn't beat Sansa, Ned doesn't kill children, Jon doesn't kill Ygritte or sleeps with prostitutes, Robb marries Jeyne after taking her virginity, Sansa saves Dontos at risk to herself. The books full of "morally right acts", that go against certain cultural pressure. 

Yep & I very much wanted Tyrion to find away around the consummation (which he does & I'm glad for) but doing it after he has molested her takes from the rest. Had he got drunk, prepared himself for consummation, expected himself to go through with it, but then got in the room with Sansa & talked to her PRIOR to clothes coming off & decided you know what? I can't do this, she is a child, she has been through enough at the hands of my family, & she is clearly fearful I would have no qualms with him at all in this regard. I understand why he married her, I just don't understand why he went as far as he did on the wedding night. 

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Also if we are going to go by only Westeros' standards/law, than nothing is "wrong" anymore. Not Aerys raping Rhaella or Robert raping Cersei, not even the terror Gregor inflicts, because that's what his leash lord wants him to do, isn't it? Not Tywin having Tysha gang-raped, because she is just a commoner and his underage son was disobedient. Every man, who abuses his wife is then just as much of a good person as Ned Stark, because you can rape and beat your wife and force her to do all kinds of things she doesn't to do- by law.

Fact is Tyrion knew it was wrong, what he was doing and it would cause suffering and he did it anyway.

Certainly. The Kings word is law so it doesn't really do us any good to discuss things irt that. There are precedence though that suggest marrying & consummating a marriage with a 12 year old is legal within Westerosi standards. It seems to be on the "young side" of legal, but legal nonetheless. 

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5 hours ago, SeanF said:

He could ensure that Sansa is treated with the same degree of respect as someone like Alicent Hightower or Queen Helaena;. he could offer her as part of an exchange of prisoners with the Starks.  He could refrain from marrying her.  He's a big boy.  These are all in accord with in-universe ethical standards.  This was a wedding at sword point, as far as Sansa was concerned.

I’m tired of repeating myself. Tyrion did not disrespect or ill treat Sansa. The only argument for his disrespecting Sansa one can make is his marrying her when she clearly didn’t want it. In this situation my argument is that Tyrion was forced under the circumstances to marry Sansa. He could have said no, and suffered the wrath and further ostracism and ridicule of his father. Why even Cersei with all her blustering and feeling of self-import couldn’t refuse Tywin. And Cersei was not the black sheep and hated member of the family. Tyrion was never written as the noble hero, knight in shining armor. I don’t know why all of a sudden every one expects that of the character. 

As to your repeated assertions that Tyrion could exchange Sansa, I call that BS. There is no way (even for Jaime) he could expect to exchange Sansa and get away with it with Tywin or Cersei. Besides he’s fighting for his family to win and he’s smart enough to know that Sansa is perhaps the most valuable card the Lannisters have in their fight with the Starks. Tywin wasn’t willing to trade Sansa for his precious Jaime. That’s called strategy. 

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3 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I’m tired of repeating myself. Tyrion did not disrespect or ill treat Sansa. The only argument for his disrespecting Sansa one can make is his marrying her when she clearly didn’t want it. In this situation my argument is that Tyrion was forced under the circumstances to marry Sansa. He could have said no, and suffered the wrath and further ostracism and ridicule of his father. Why even Cersei with all her blustering and feeling of self-import couldn’t refuse Tywin. And Cersei was not the black sheep and hated member of the family. Tyrion was never written as the noble hero, knight in shining armor. I don’t know why all of a sudden every one expects that of the character. 

As to your repeated assertions that Tyrion could exchange Sansa, I call that BS. There is no way (even for Jaime) he could expect to exchange Sansa and get away with it with Tywin or Cersei. Besides he’s fighting for his family to win and he’s smart enough to know that Sansa is perhaps the most valuable card the Lannisters have in their fight with the Starks. Tywin wasn’t willing to trade Sansa for his precious Jaime. That’s called strategy. 

 I wouldn't dispute that if it's a choice between himself, any member of his family, or Sansa, Sansa loses.

 

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4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh for sure but Tyrion didn't do any of those things. Those were the doings of Cersei, Joffrey, Tywin, The Freys & The Boltons & while I completely understand why Sansa would not see Tyrion any differently than any other Lannister, we know he didn't partake or have any hand in those things. 

But he is benefitting from their crimes, working with and for them and by marrying Sansa he is also participating (not suggesting for him to do anything else, but it is what it is- if you work for the family's benefit, who murdered half of your family the Starks hardly are going to like you). I was not really arguing about inheriting WF, but that even by Westeros' standards Tyrion did a lot of wrong, when he sexually assaulting Sansa, because he did a lot of wrong by marrying Sansa in the first place. He knows Ned was unjustly killed, therefore Sansa unjustly imprisoned and unjustly given away in marriage by a false king. Ned was not a traitor and Joff not the son of Bobby. Therefore the right to chose a husband should only belong to her family. Tyrion has no right to marry her and therefore no right to sleep with her. What I'm trying to say Tyrion did molest Sansa, even in universe. 

I dont blame him for his family's crimes like the RW, ned's beheading or even marrying Sansa. But fact is, he is benefitting from all of it (without Ned's beheading + the RW + Sansa's captivity -->no WF for him) and by marrying Sansa he is part of that specific crime against the Starks (I have no alternative suggestions, except, for: Don't molest her, for a million reasons, but also it's unlawful within universe)

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I don't blame him for not swooping in & removing Sansa & returning her to her family immediately because I think that ploy would have to be done carefully & would take time. There isn't any evidence to suggest he ever planned on doing that though. In his defense she doesn't have any family left except a bastard brother at the Wall, he could hardly send her there. 

 

For most of her time in KL. Mom and bro where still alive though, they only died, when Tyrion and her were already married. But they had Jaime, so I get it.

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I'm not giving him leeway here, I've said this is my issue also. 

I know, I'm sorry. I wasn't really referring to you. I was ranting. I'm just upset lol.

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Yeah, he is very smart. He knows she has married him against her will but really the only thing he can do about that is let her be forced to marry another Lannister. I initially commended him for marrying her, thinking he would be the kindest to her & if it is him or another, why not him? But then he took things too far on the wedding night & it is just bothersome.

same.

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I don't think touching a 12 year old, or even having sex with her, is a crime in universe. There are likely any number of men that would refuse to consummate the marriage until the child is older (at least I hope) but she has flowered & that seems to be the only stipulation for a girl being old enough to consummate. 

Not because of her age, but because she wasn't Joffrey's to give away. He is not Robert's heir, but a bastard and Ned wasn't a traitor. 

54 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yep & I very much wanted Tyrion to find away around the consummation (which he does & I'm glad for) but doing it after he has molested her takes from the rest. Had he got drunk, prepared himself for consummation, expected himself to go through with it, but then got in the room with Sansa & talked to her PRIOR to clothes coming off & decided you know what? I can't do this, she is a child, she has been through enough at the hands of my family, & she is clearly fearful I would have no qualms with him at all in this regard. I understand why he married her, I just don't understand why he went as far as he did on the wedding night. 

Agreed would be even better, if he had decided that from the get go, when he was deciding to marry her. 

 

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55 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

In this hypothetical, if they show up they’ll get offed ASAP to ensure WF goes to the Lannisters. 

Yeah, the Lannisters may try. But WF currently resides with Ramsay & fArya - an "heir" the Lannisters helped create so I don't think killing off Bran or Rickon would necessarily be their first choice. They may try to control them like they do with the Boltons & ensure whoever holds WF is loyal to them. 

At any rate, my point was, marrying Sansa to Tyrion does not trump any right of the boys in itself. 

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16 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I’m tired of repeating myself. Tyrion did not disrespect or ill treat Sansa. The only argument for his disrespecting Sansa one can make is his marrying her when she clearly didn’t want it. In this situation my argument is that Tyrion was forced under the circumstances to marry Sansa. He could have said no, and suffered the wrath and further ostracism and ridicule of his father. Why even Cersei with all her blustering and feeling of self-import couldn’t refuse Tywin. And Cersei was not the black sheep and hated member of the family. Tyrion was never written as the noble hero, knight in shining armor. I don’t know why all of a sudden every one expects that of the character. 

As to your repeated assertions that Tyrion could exchange Sansa, I call that BS. There is no way (even for Jaime) he could expect to exchange Sansa and get away with it with Tywin or Cersei. Besides he’s fighting for his family to win and he’s smart enough to know that Sansa is perhaps the most valuable card the Lannisters have in their fight with the Starks. Tywin wasn’t willing to trade Sansa for his precious Jaime. That’s called strategy. 

He was kind to her mostly. He did molest her though. 

Sansa's ill treatment did not come (mostly) from Tyrion though. 

Tyrion certainly wasn't forced into anything either. He had much more choice in the matter than Sansa did. He chose the choice he thought was best. He didn't have to suffer any wrath from his father, his father told him exactly what he would do if he refused to marry Sansa - he would marry Sansa to someone else. That's no harm to Tyrion. Tyrion continues to defy his father with no consequences when he does not consummate the marriage. So, how exactly, was he forced? 

I agree he couldn't have exchanged her though, at least not with out planning & plotting & given some time & even then it would have been dangerous for himself. 

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3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

This is absolutely not true, Sansa was still beaten up by the KGs for half of Clash, while Tyrion was already Hand (which he became in the beginning of clash) and was in the city for a long while. He didn't bother to check, if she wasn't abused until he accidentally walked into one of her beatings.

Could you tell me where in ACOK Sansa is being beaten after Tyrion appears in KL? I will. It happens to be the third Sansa chapter. This is the only instance in the book we are shown Sansa being physically abused. It also happens to be the same chapter where Tyrion intervenes and puts a stop to her abuse. After that it is never stated or even hinted that Sansa was physically abused. Now your argument is that the first thing Martin should have depicted in ACOK once Tyrion arrived in KL was for him to have gone and told Joffrey not to abuse Sansa, is that it? I know you are a fervent Sansa fan but you really need to do better than this strawman argument. 

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7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tyrion certainly wasn't forced into anything either. He had much more choice in the matter than Sansa did. He chose the choice he thought was best. He didn't have to suffer any wrath from his father, his father told him exactly what he would do if he refused to marry Sansa - he would marry Sansa to someone else. That's no harm to Tyrion. Tyrion continues to defy his father with no consequences when he does not consummate the marriage. So, how exactly, was he forced? 

I did acknowledge in one of my earlier posts that Tyrion could have said no more easily that Sansa. But Tyrion was forced in my opinion, of course not at the fear of death as Sansa was. He didn’t want to marry Sansa that is clear. He even suggests to Tywin to return Sansa to her mother so as to keep her away from the Tyrells. Yes, Tywin suggested that he would marry Sansa to another Lannister if not Tyrion. But Tyrion also knew how much his father hated him and how precarious his position in the Lannister household was. Are you certain that Tywin wouldn’t have been angry with him if he refused? As to the consummation part we see that Tywin is annoyed and angry with Tyrion for not going through with it. He clearly makes his displeasure known. The fact that Tyrion does not cave and submit is a testament to Tyrion‘s character not Tywin’s.

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He wants to be loved, but never will be. Sansa and her response to him represents the truth. He is small, and disfigured and no maid wants him. Shae is the lie. Her love is bought and paid for. As is Bronn's loyalty. Tyrion prefers the lie. He can live with that. For a time, at least. Sansa couldn't even show the cool courtesy that she did for Joffery. Maybe, to some extent, Sansa preferred the lie too? 

Tyrion is small and ugly and everybody hates him. Even so, he has his pride; he is no martyr. If he cannot succeed as a just man he will become the villain people believe him to be. In aDwD, he does a decent job of doing exactly that. And it's getting him what he wants.

His story so far appears to be the makings of an antagonist.  With him, I think George will demonstrate what happens when you bully and marginalise a person(s) and never show them kindness. Jaime will be the only person who can give him pause for thought. If/when Tyrion returns to Westeros with power, then seven save them, he has been given no reason to be merciful. I think hatred is all he has left to him. 

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Just now, TheThreeEyedCow said:

He wants to be loved, but never will be. Sansa and her response to him represents the truth. He is small, and disfigured and no maid wants him. Shae is the lie. Her love is bought and paid for. As is Bronn's loyalty. Tyrion prefers the lie. He can live with that. For a time, at least. Sansa couldn't even show the cool courtesy that she did for Joffery. Maybe, to some extent, Sansa preferred the lie too? 

Tyrion is small and ugly and everybody hates him. Even so, he has his pride; he is no martyr. If he cannot succeed as a just man he will become the villain people believe him to be. In aDwD, he does a decent job of doing exactly that. And it's getting him what he wants.

His story so far appears to be the makings of an antagonist.  With him, I think George will demonstrate what happens when you bully and marginalise a person(s) and never show them kindness. Jaime will be the only person who can give him pause for thought. If/when Tyrion returns to Westeros with power, then seven save them, he has been given no reason to be merciful. I think hatred is all he has left to him

I think he's Richard III, more or less,

I expect him to function very much as Daenerys' evil genius, always urging her to be more cruel and ruthless.

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2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

What other weddings have we seen in Westeros, where the marriage to a 12 year old was consummated right away, except for poor Jeyne Poole? I can't think of a single one. The girls are all 15, 16 or above (Margaery to Renly, Jeyne W. Cersei, Catlyn, Lysa, Roslin, Alys Karstark, Lyanna (even though not married)) maybe I forget about a 14 year old.

Dany's mother. She gave birth to Rhaegar at either 13 or 14, which means she was married either at 12 or 13. Yes, Aerys wasn't that much older than her, but that birth might have left very lasting long effects on her.

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But there is no consummated marriage to to a 12/13 year old and even Tyrion himself says and thinks repeatedly it's too young.

Yes, there is. Dany herself was married at the age of 13 to Khal Drogo who was 30 years old. And he does have sex with her and it doesn't matter how ambiguous the writer decided to make it. It was dubious consent. 

I absolutely and completely acknowledge that all this stuff is over the top wrong and extremely uncomfortable. But I don't think judging the stuff in the books to our modern standards is the way to go. But did you know there are states in the US where 12 year olds are allowed to get married?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/02/10/why-does-the-united-states-still-let-12-year-old-girls-get-married/

This part below is about something that's happened in France recently with one of its more "celebrated" authors.

 

There's been massive controversy in France recently with a writer named Gabriel Matzneff who wrote about sleeping with girls and boys both, in their very early teens. He is in his early 80's now. No one as much as blinked at his writings and the things he said. Only one person took him to task sometime in the 90s, I think, about how what he's doing was wrong, he was pretty much a piece of shit for doing so. Recently, one of his victims wrote her own story about it, and now, decades later, he is being investigated for rape and a slew of other charges. He fled France like the big coward that he is and is hiding out in Italy and saying that people just wanna destroy his life. And his preying on these children happened within the last 50 years. You should look it up, see how society had no reaction to the vile things he was doing, or how society was not brave enough to tell him he was a pedo, except for the woman who took him to task. And how now he is living his reckoning because of the changes that happened in our society in the wake of the #metoo movement.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Could you tell me where in ACOK Sansa is being beaten after Tyrion appears in KL? I will. It happens to be the third Sansa chapter.

"Nervously, she rubbed her stomach. The angry purple bruise Ser Meryn had given her had faded to an ugly yellow, but still hurt. His fist had been mailed when he hit her. It was her own fault. She must learn to hide her feelings better, so as not to anger Joffrey. When she heard that the Imp had sent Lord Slynt to the Wall, she had forgotten herself and said, “I hope the Others get him.” The king had not been pleased."

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 2

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Now your argument is that the first thing Martin should have depicted in ACOK once Tyrion arrived in KL was for him to have gone and told Joffrey not to abuse Sansa, is that it? 

Why are you accusing me of strawman and doing it then yourself? 

I've never said that, I just mentioned that Tyrion doesn't go out of his way to make sure she won't be abused, before he walks in on her beatings and that's exactly what happened. Even though he suspects Joffrey might not treat her well. "I suspect Martell will treat Myrcella more kindly than Joffrey has treated Sansa Stark." 

I never said, this should be the first thing, that he does or anything like that. But we don't see him ever being worried about Sansa being possibly abused or doing something about that in all of his 7 chapters between her first (in which he comes back to KL) and her third (in which he saves her). You said otherwise, therefore I pointed it out. And we only have one Sansa chapter in between in which she is clearly still being beaten.

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I know you are a fervent Sansa fan but you really need to do better than this strawman argument. 

And could you please stop getting personal, what have I ever done to you?

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20 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But he is benefitting from their crimes, working with and for them and by marrying Sansa he is also participating (not suggesting for him to do anything else, but it is what it is- if you work for the family's benefit, who murdered half of your family the Starks hardly are going to like you).

Oh, I agree she, nor any of the Starks have any reason to like him. I just don't think he is complicit in their crimes just because his family & by extension he, benefits from those crimes. 

21 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I was not really arguing about inheriting WF, but that even by Westeros' standards Tyrion did a lot of wrong, when he sexually assaulting Sansa, because he did a lot of wrong by marrying Sansa in the first place. He knows Ned was unjustly killed, therefore Sansa unjustly imprisoned and unjustly given away in marriage by a false king.

I disagree he did anything wrong by marrying her, he is operating within the favor of his own family, which is understandable & expected. It was a political alliance. 

I don't know if he does know Ned was unjustly killed does he? Certainly he probably suspects Joff is the product of Jaime & Cersei's union but there really isn't any proof. 

Even if he did though he can't really be expected to go against his entire family to right this wrong. He would be killed in the process & while I agree he should do more to protect Sansa he should not be expected to do anything that will put himself at risk, at the cost of Sansa or anyone else. 

26 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Ned was not a traitor and Joff not the son of Bobby. Therefore the right to chose a husband should only belong to her family. Tyrion has no right to marry her and therefore no right to sleep with her. What I'm trying to say Tyrion did molest Sansa, even in universe. 

I don't recall if Tyrion knew Ned was not a traitor & Joff not the son of Robert but it doesn't make a lot of difference where Tyrion is concerned because he has no power to right those wrongs. There was certainly a disservice done to Sansa on several fronts, including Tyrion's molestation but her family being taken from her isn't Tyrion's fault & it wouldn't really do him any good to say "No, I'm not marrying her because Joff isn't Roberts, Ned was executed wrongfully, & it isn't the Lannisters choice to choose a husband for her." It wouldn't do Sansa much good either so, other than for the sake of being morally righteous, I can't think of any reason for him to do this. 

I don't think Sansa being forced to be married against her will makes it molestation in universe though. Idk it's hard for me to see it as anything other than molestation whether in or out of universe but because we don't really have any precedence for calling it molestation in universe, I understand that argument that it was legal there. 

58 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

For most of her time in KL. Mom and bro where still alive though, they only died, when Tyrion and her were already married. But they had Jaime, so I get it.

Yeah, true. It still would have put Tyrion in serious danger to try to send her back against the crowns wishes. 

59 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I know, I'm sorry. I wasn't really referring to you. I was ranting. I'm just upset lol.

No worries, I understand. I think the main thing to remember is that we are only discussing things, people are entitled to their own opinion, & what they think does not in anyway change your morals. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Not because of her age, but because she wasn't Joffrey's to give away. He is not Robert's heir, but a bastard and Ned wasn't a traitor. 

Sure but how much of this is known? I think we get into a sticky area here & I'm 100% in agreement it is morally wrong on all parts, regardless of the laws of Westeros. But if we are talking about individual culpability we have to know what they know irt Joff not being Roberts heir, Ned not being a traitor etc. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Agreed would be even better, if he had decided that from the get go, when he was deciding to marry her. 

Oh, yeah that absolutely would have been better, I was only saying the other to say I would have forgave him for not deciding right away that he wasn't going to touch her, if he ultimately decided it before he did it. 

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3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

"Nervously, she rubbed her stomach. The angry purple bruise Ser Meryn had given her had faded to an ugly yellow, but still hurt. His fist had been mailed when he hit her. It was her own fault. She must learn to hide her feelings better, so as not to anger Joffrey. When she heard that the Imp had sent Lord Slynt to the Wall, she had forgotten herself and said, “I hope the Others get him.” The king had not been pleased."

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 2

Why are you accusing me of strawman and doing it then yourself? 

I've never said that, I just mentioned that Tyrion doesn't go out of his way to make sure she won't be abused, before he walks in on her beatings and that's exactly what happened. Even though he suspects Joffrey might not treat her well. "I suspect Martell will treat Myrcella more kindly than Joffrey has treated Sansa Stark." 

I never said, this should be the first thing, that he does or anything like that. But we don't see him ever being worried about Sansa being possibly abused or doing something about that in all of his 7 chapters between her first (in which he comes back to KL) and her third (in which he saves her). You said otherwise, therefore I pointed it out. And we only have one Sansa chapter in between in which she is clearly still being beaten.

And could you please stop getting personal, what have I ever done to you?

What is your point if not the first thing Tyrion should have done once he got to KL was to go to Joffrey and tell him not to abuse Sansa? That’s what I’m hearing you say. You want GRRM to have written an earlier Tyrion/ Sansa chapter where he goes and enquires about Sansa’s well being, it’s as simple as that. That is a strawman argument. It is something that you want but the writer does not provide, not because he is implying in any way that Tyrion condones or allows Sansa’s abuse but simply because he first want to show Tyrion dealing with the mess in KL, which includes dealing with Cersei, dealing with Pycelle, LF, Varys and Slynt, which includes figuring out a way to keep Stannis at bay, and so on and so forth. GRRM clearly shows Tyrion intervening to stop the abuse when he has a chance but you are offended that it isn’t per your timeline. I’m sorry but this one is not on Tyrion.

As to getting personal, I wasn’t. Calling you a Sansa fan, which you very much are is not a “getting personal”. 

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28 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I did acknowledge in one of my earlier posts that Tyrion could have said no more easily that Sansa

But doesn't the fact that he could have said no at all prove he wasn't forced? I think unless the other choice/s are death, harm, dismemberment, torture something along those lines then it is a choice & not something being forced. A hard choice, certainly but a choice all the same. 

40 minutes ago, teej6 said:

But Tyrion was forced in my opinion, of course not at the fear of death as Sansa was.

Maybe we just disagree on the definition of forced. I think he was persuaded & coerced but not forced. 

42 minutes ago, teej6 said:

He even suggests to Tywin to return Sansa to her mother so as to keep her away from the Tyrells.

Absolutely & that was a good thing. I would have liked to see him try to persuade Tywin a little harder but in all reality Tywin would have to be an idiot to send Sansa back to her family & he is no idiot. It wouldn't have mattered what Tyrion said, he holds no power over Tywin. 

44 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Yes, Tywin suggested that he would marry Sansa to another Lannister if not Tyrion. But Tyrion also knew how much his father hated him and how precarious his position in the Lannister household was. Are you certain that Tywin wouldn’t have been angry with him if he refused?

Yeah, so I said something similar upthread. He was not a favored Lannister, that is clear. He was presented with an opportunity to help his family in a very large way & decided in the end, to seize it. It was a smart choice & one I don't disagree with. I just don't think this constitutes force. Tywin would have been angry I'm sure. But your decision making someone angry doesn't mean you were forced into it. 

46 minutes ago, teej6 said:

As to the consummation part we see that Tywin is annoyed and angry with Tyrion for not going through with it. He clearly makes his displeasure known. The fact that Tyrion does not cave and submit is a testament to Tyrion‘s character not Tywin’s.

Yes, Tywin is annoyed & angry & ultimately does absolutely nothing about it. I wasn't trying to give testament to either character, my point was Tyrion can refuse his father in this, he does, & there are no consequences. He can refuse his father in marrying Sansa & there would be little to no consequences for Tyrion. 

 

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44 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I expect him to function very much as Daenerys' evil genius, always urging her to be more cruel and ruthless.

I agree that Tyrion has turned dark and rather dislikable in his Essos chapters. But I disagree in that he will be the one to egg Dany on to be cruel and ruthless. Dany has a lot of advisors in her camp already doing just that. And if anything, based on Tyrion’s later ADWD chapters, I think he has put his hate and the kinslaying episode behind him and he’s beginning to become his old self again. As I mentioned before, we see his kindness towards Penny who is nothing but dead weight to him. He even saves Jorah who put him in the position of being a slave. Tyrion is not going to fully turn dark and evil IMO. He will redeem himself. GRRM likes him too much to turn him into the evil whisperer. As for Dany, I’m quite certain she is turning into the antagonist in the later books. She will have her reasons but I doubt it’s going to be due to any machinations on Tyrion’s part.

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11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But doesn't the fact that he could have said no at all prove he wasn't forced? I think unless the other choice/s are death, harm, dismemberment, torture something along those lines then it is a choice & not something being forced. A hard choice, certainly but a choice all the same. 

Maybe we just disagree on the definition of forced. I think he was persuaded & coerced but not forced. 

Absolutely & that was a good thing. I would have liked to see him try to persuade Tywin a little harder but in all reality Tywin would have to be an idiot to send Sansa back to her family & he is no idiot. It wouldn't have mattered what Tyrion said, he holds no power over Tywin. 

Yeah, so I said something similar upthread. He was not a favored Lannister, that is clear. He was presented with an opportunity to help his family in a very large way & decided in the end, to seize it. It was a smart choice & one I don't disagree with. I just don't think this constitutes force. Tywin would have been angry I'm sure. But your decision making someone angry doesn't mean you were forced into it. 

Yes, Tywin is annoyed & angry & ultimately does absolutely nothing about it. I wasn't trying to give testament to either character, my point was Tyrion can refuse his father in this, he does, & there are no consequences. He can refuse his father in marrying Sansa & there would be little to no consequences for Tyrion. 

We agree on much but the definition of forced. Yes, perhaps forced is too strong a word to describe the untenable situation Tyrion found himself in. Martin implies that everyone has a choice. Like Tyrion in one of his Essos chapters states, the slaves had a choice too, they could have chosen to die instead of being a slave. They chose bondage over death. In Tyrion’s case, it’s not so drastic a choice, but the options to him are accepting a bad situation or else being in a worse position. You can call it coercion or bullying or persuasion, but Tyrion was dealt a very bad hand and tried to make the best of it. I disagree with you that Tyrion would have faced no consequence had he not agreed to marry Sansa. I can’t say for sure what Tywin would have done, but I don’t see a situation where everything would have gone back to as they were had Tyrion disobeyed Tywin. I see the marriage and the consummation differently. The way I see it is that Tywin could exert more pressure in getting Tyrion to marry Sansa than in getting Tyrion to consummate the wedding. And in Tywin’s eyes, once he has secured the marriage, he is not anticipating the Lannisters defeat or Sansa escaping the marriage and her fate as Tyrion’s wife. He would prefer for his son to consummate the marriage but he doesn’t suspect that not doing so in the immediate future will in any way change the tide against the Lannisters. Through the marriage he secured his initial goal of disrupting the Tyrells’ plans and ambitions and he feels that eventually Tyrion will put a seed in Sansa and claim the North. So the marriage was more imperative to Tywin.

As I’ve said several times on this thread, Tyrion is not written as the noble hero, he is not Ned or Jon, and to compare him to these characters is disingenuous (I’m not saying you are). He is raised by a father who is a terrible role model but despite that comes out a better man. He is one of the characters in the series who clearly embodies Faulkner’s “human heart in conflict with itself” narrative. 

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37 minutes ago, teej6 said:

What is your point if not the first thing Tyrion should have done once he got to KL was to go to Joffrey and tell him not to abuse Sansa? That’s what I’m hearing you say. You want GRRM to have written an earlier Tyrion/ Sansa chapter where he goes and enquires about Sansa’s well being, it’s as simple as that. That is a strawman argument. It is something that you want but the writer does not provide, not because he is implying in any way that Tyrion condones or allows Sansa’s abuse but simply because he first want to show Tyrion dealing with the mess in KL, which includes dealing with Cersei, dealing with Pycelle, LF, Varys and Slynt, which includes figuring out a way to keep Stannis at bay, and so on and so forth. GRRM clearly shows Tyrion intervening to stop the abuse when he has a chance but you are offended that it isn’t per your timeline. I’m sorry but this one is not on Tyrion.

As to getting personal, I wasn’t. Calling you a Sansa fan, which you very much are is not a “getting personal”. 

Could you please stop putting words in my mouth of what I want, what you hearing me say, what i want GRRM to do. This is the definition of strawman. Maybe you could just read what I'm writing for a change.

I don't know what you want from me. You've stated something that wasn't true, therefore I've corrected you and IMO it's supporting @SeanF's arguments very well, that's all. You said Sansa isn't abused anymore after Tyrion arrives and that's obviously not true and if GRRM wanted us to believe, that things in that regard had changed for Sansa now that Tyrion was there, he obviously wouldn't have written that scene. In his 7 chapters Tyrion doesn't go out of his way to specifically protect Sansa and she is still been beaten up, it's half of the book, he has been the Hand for months now - that's just a fact. I'm not even criticizing him, I'm just observing it. And FYI I usually don't wish for certain things in books or want things to change, just because something isn't going so well. And I for sure don't want anything to change in Clash.

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8 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Could you please stop putting words in my mouth of what I want, what you hearing me say, what i want GRRM to do. This is the definition of strawman. Maybe you could just read what I'm writing for a change.

I don't know what you want from me. You've stated something that wasn't true, therefore I've corrected you and IMO it's supporting @SeanF's arguments very well, that's all. You said Sansa isn't abused anymore after Tyrion arrives and that's obviously not true and if GRRM wanted us to believe, that things in that regard had changed for Sansa now that Tyrion was there, he obviously wouldn't have written that scene. In his 7 chapters Tyrion doesn't go out of his way to specifically protect Sansa and she is still been beaten up, it's half of the book, he has been the Hand for months now - that's just a fact. I'm not even criticizing him, I'm just observing it. And FYI I usually don't wish for certain things in books or want things to change, just because something isn't going so well. And I for sure don't want anything to change in Clash.

Abuse comes in many forms.  She's abused relentlessly by Cersei, even though Cersei does not hit her.

A life with Tyrion would have been a nightmare for Sansa.  Once she had borne a child or two, the Lannisters would have had no more reason to allow her to live.

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