Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

[corbon]

52 minutes ago, Mystical said:

It's not just about the wedding but the bedding ceremony. It's literally the topic title. And during the bedding/wedding parts in the books it's made very clear that Tyrion knows...

1) She is a child.

2) She is a prisoner of his family and therefor him as well.

3) His family has killed hers and is still actively trying to kill the rest of f them (which also clears the line of succession for his and Sansa's possible child).

4) His family ordered her abuse.

5) That her miserable lot goes far beyond the typical arranged marriage, due to points 1-4.

Agreed.

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It's also made clear that...

1) Tyrion wants Winterfell.

Agreed. But he's also prepared to give it up if only she says the word.
Wanting is not a sin. Acting is a sin.

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2) Tyrion is a huge classist and only wants a beautiful wife with the right name. Minor houses and average looking or comely looking women need not apply.

Tysha points you wrong. 
Sure, Tyrion wants a beautiful and rich and high class wife. In exactly the same superficial way that every man would prefer those thing, just as every woman would prefer the equivalent things.
But his thoughts about what he could possibly have with Sansa betray what he really wants.

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 I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust.

He wants a true partner who loves him, not a trophy wife.
Its his family's 'honour' and 'position' that demand he have such a high class wife, not him.

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3) He never bothers to help better Sansa's position (warning her about the wedding, making sure she isn't beaten, helping her escape etc.)

Thats a straight out falsehood. He did stop the beatings, such as he could. He sent KG after her after the riot when everyone else ignored her. He let her know he couldn't warn her of the wedding, though he wanted to. He offered to not go through with the wedding if she preferred a different Lannister. He protected her from the bedding ceremony, from Joffrey - literally threatened the King in public for her, and even insulted and disparaged himself to do so.

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4) He wants Sansa sexually despite her being a child.

You women all seem to forget what the text tells us about Sansa, and focus on her mentally. Sansa is a beautiful young woman, 12 going on 18. She is physically developed ahead of her age, tall,, graceful, beautiful. She is the epitome of female beauty in his culture. 
And men are visual much more, women are mental much more (or so I'm told). His physical desire for her is based in a large part on that she is physically a beautiful young woman, not a little girl.
Yet in the end, his physical desire is not what rules his actions.

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5) He would have gone through with raping his 12 year old child prisoner bride if her revulsion at the prospect hadn't triggered his own issues.

I don't know where to start that. Its so wrong.

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6) He didn't have to marry her.

He gave her the opportunity to get out of marriage to him. Even though he wanted her and Winterfell.

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Sorry but 100% of my empathy lies with the abused and used 12 year old child prisoner bride and not with the guy who didn't have to marry her, is a borderline pedophile, who didn't lift a finger to help her (coming across one of her public beatings by accident doesn't count), who is helping eradicating her family and who is also a misogynist and classist.

But that's just me.

And thats the problem. thats the only reason i'm here making points in a conversation I don't need to be a part of.
100%-0% is evil, and its a choice. This is not a zero sum game. 

[Mystical]

54 minutes ago, corbon said:

Tysha points you wrong. 
Sure, Tyrion wants a beautiful and rich and high class wife. In exactly the same superficial way that every man would prefer those thing, just as every woman would prefer the equivalent things.
But his thoughts about what he could possibly have with Sansa betray what he really wants.

I'm not talking about 13 year old Tyrion. I'm talking about adult Tyrion. So Tysha doesn't matter. Current Tyrion seems somehow so dense that he doesn't get that the only way to get someone of Sansa's name and beauty is exactly in the way he got her. As a prisoner of his family. No one of high caliber wanted to marry their daughter to Tyrion, for several understandable reasons. If Tyrion hadn't adopted such insane high standards he might have found a woman, even if she was from a more minor house.

54 minutes ago, corbon said:

He wants a true partner who loves him, not a trophy wife.
Its his family's 'honour' and 'position' that demand he have such a high class wife, not him.

That's why he doesn't rape her. It's his issue of wanting someone who wants him. He hopes if he is kind to her now, she will come to care for him later. And willingly open up to him and want too sleep with him. But he totally ignored the reality of HER situation when he thought that. Tyrion is nothing if not self-deluded even when he knows the truth.

And iirc, Lollys Stokeworth was on the table as a marriage prospect. So no, it didn't have to be a high class wife.

54 minutes ago, corbon said:

Thats a straight out falsehood. He did stop the beatings, such as he could. He sent KG after her after the riot when everyone else ignored her.

Yes, lets forget the actual reason why he stops her public beating and later sends the KG for her in the riots. His main concern was Jamie NOT Sansa. He was worried about what would happen to Jamie if word got back to the Starks about what was being done/what happened to Sansa. It's not about her or her well being for Sansa's sake.

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He let her know he couldn't warn her of the wedding, though he wanted to.

Oh please. He had every opportunity to do so and he didn't even have to do it in person if he was worried about spies or whatever.

54 minutes ago, corbon said:

I don't know where to start that. Its so wrong.

It's not because it's right there in the text. The reason he doesn't rape her was made clear. 'If I'm nice to her now and not force her at this moment, we will be a lovey dovey couple in the future'. And his trigger was her revulsion.

54 minutes ago, corbon said:

You women all seem to forget what the text tells us about Sansa, and focus on her mentally. Sansa is a beautiful young woman, 12 going on 18. She is physically developed ahead of her age, tall,, graceful, beautiful. She is the epitome of female beauty in his culture.

What does her early development have to do with it? Even Tyrion, despite her womanly curves, continually calls her a CHILD. She is a child to him despite her appearance. And that's, again, in the text.

54 minutes ago, corbon said:

He gave her the opportunity to get out of marriage to him. Even though he wanted her and Winterfell.

Hey, here is a novel concept. Why didn't he say NO right from the start? Sansa didn't have a choice to get out of the marriage, she would have been married to a Lannister regardless. Tyrion was the one who really had the choice from the very beginning. He could have said no when the choice was offered to him.

And you know what else would have happened? He would have been spared the embarrassment of her not kneeling. He would have been spared the dreadful bedding night. He would have not been the laughing stock of the court for his inability to take her maiden head. And he would have spared Sansa the dreadful bedding night as well because Lancel was in no shape to consummate. He would have also been spared a wife who was nice and courteous but didn't fulfill his fantasy of the perfect wife and married life.

54 minutes ago, corbon said:

And thats the problem. thats the only reason i'm here making points in a conversation I don't need to be a part of.
100% is evil, and its a choice. This is not a zero sum game.

Why? It was his choice 100% despite the fact that he knew she was a child prisoner who was being held hostage and abused by his family (and he was also her jailer for life via the marriage), his family was killing off hers and using her for her birth right. Anyone with a functioning brain would know that this is not a recipe for any sort of a good marriage. He chose to delude himself into thinking otherwise.

[Nagini's Neville]

5 minutes ago, corbon said:

You women all seem to forget what the text tells us about Sansa, and focus on her mentally.

Why focus so much on gender all the time? There are men, who agree with @Mystical's (don't even know, if they are female) and my opinion as there are women like teej6, who lean towards yours. I assure you, if the genders were reversed I'd feel exactly the same way. It has nothing to do with gender at all.

11 minutes ago, corbon said:

Sansa is a beautiful young woman, 12 going on 18. She is physically developed ahead of her age, tall,, graceful, beautiful. She is the epitome of female beauty in his culture. 

How do we actually know that though? Sansa was perceived as very beautiful at 11 as well and everyone looked at her back then 100% as a child. Brooke Shields, Natalie Portman were beautiful at 11 and also 100% looked like children.

Sansa is describing how her breasts have grown, that's not unusual most 12 year olds have boobs, but they still have the faces of children.

And it's actually never said, that Sansa is specifically very tall. The Hound calls her tallER. She has grown, because, that's what children do.

Tyrion actually looks at her naked body and says "you are a child" what more proof do we need, that she still looks like a child. A very beautiful one at that, but a child. He calls her so himself.

30 minutes ago, corbon said:

And men are visual much more, women are mental much more (or so I'm told). His physical desire for her is based in a large part on that she is physically a beautiful young woman, not a little girl.
Yet in the end, his physical desire is not what rules his actions.

Yeah, that's not true. Women are just as visual. As you can see from Sansa's reaction to Tyrion. Maybe we are politer about it though and that's where that rumor comes from dunno

34 minutes ago, corbon said:

He did stop the beatings, such as he could. 

I mean he could have tried to make sure Sansa wasn't abused before accidentally walking into one of her beatings. That happens right in the middle of clash. Half a book she is still beaten without him going out of his way to make sure this isn't the case.

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He sent KG after her after the riot when everyone else ignored her. 

Both Cersei and Tyrion did, because of Jaime.

"Tyrion glanced round the yard. “Where’s the Stark girl?” For a moment no one answered. Finally Joffrey said, “She was riding by me, I don’t know where she went.” Tyrion pressed blunt fingers into his throbbing temples. If Sansa Stark had come to harm, Jaime was as good as dead. Ser Mandon Moore remained untroubled. “When they mobbed the Hound, I thought first of the king.” “And rightly so,” Cersei put in. “Boros, Meryn, go back and find the girl.” “And my daughter,” Lady Tanda sobbed. “Please, sers …” Ser Boros did not look pleased at the prospect of leaving the safety of the castle. “Your Grace,” he told the queen, “the sight of our white cloaks might enrage the mob.” Tyrion had stomached all he cared to. “The Others take your fucking cloaks! Take them off if you’re afraid to wear them, you bloody oaf … but find me Sansa Stark or I swear, I’ll have Shagga split that ugly head of yours in two to see if there’s anything inside but black pudding.” Ser Boros went purple with rage. “You would call me ugly, you?” He started to raise the bloody sword still clutched in his mailed fist. Bronn shoved Tyrion unceremoniously behind him. “Stop it!” Cersei snapped. “Boros, you’ll do as you’re bid, or we’ll find someone else to wear that cloak. Your oath—”

57 minutes ago, corbon said:

And thats the problem. thats the only reason i'm here making points in a conversation I don't need to be a part of.
100% is evil, and its a choice. This is not a zero sum game.

Are you seriously calling @Mystical evil, because of their opinion?  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Yes, lets forget the actual reason why he stops her public beating and later sends the KG for her in the riots. His main concern was Jamie NOT Sansa. He was worried about what would happen to Jamie if word got back to the Starks about what was being done/what happened to Sansa. It's not about her or her well being for Sansa's sake

Is this stated in the text? If so I don't recall it. At any rate I don't think it's fair to say he does nothing to stop any of it & then say well, yeah he does that but that doesn't count because reasons. 

14 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Hey, here is a novel concept. Why didn't he say NO right from the start? Sansa didn't have a choice to get out of the marriage, she would have been married to a Lannister regardless. Tyrion was the one who really had the choice from the very beginning. He could have said no when the choice was offered to him.

He could have said no, certainly, but why would he? He literally had not one single reason to say no to the marriage. 

Also, to be fair, it wasn't just "offered" to him. He was told he would marry her. He obviously has some say here else Tywin wouldn't have told him what he would do if Tyrion refused but it wasn't an offer either. 

16 minutes ago, Mystical said:

What does her early development have to do with it? Even Tyrion, despite her womanly curves, continually calls her a CHILD. She is a child to him despite her appearance. And that's, again, in the text

I think the poster explained what he thinks it has to do with it pretty plainly but I'll give it a go. Men are very visual, when a naked woman (yes she was a child but looks like a woman) is in front of them any straight man would have a pretty hard time not responding physically. That sort of thing isn't really in their control. 

So, at the chance of sounding vulgar, his mind knew she was a child but his penis did not. 

19 minutes ago, Mystical said:

He would have not been the laughing stock of the court for his inability to take her maiden head. 

He has no inability to take her maidenhead. He is quite capable, as we are reminded again & again through out the series. 

20 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Why? It was his choice 100% despite the fact that he knew she was a child prisoner who was being held hostage and abused by his family (and he was also her jailer for life via the marriage), his family was killing off hers and using her for her birth right. Anyone with a functioning brain would know that this is not a recipe for any sort of a good marriage. He chose to delude himself into thinking otherwise

He was faced with some pretty rough choices. This doesn't negate Sansas trauma in the slightest but marrying her was the best option presented to him. 

I don't know if he was deluding himself there. That's an interesting concept though. Do you think if the groom were, say, Jaime, instead of Tyrion he would still be deluding himself? 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, that's not true. Women are just as visual. As you can see from Sansa's reaction to Tyrion. Maybe we are politer about it though and that's where that rumor comes from dunno

I would disagree here. I think women, generally, are much more mental. It's part of the reason women are made "beautifully". Of course there are exceptions to every rule, I just know I'm more mental & have read that women generally are. 

14 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Are you seriously calling @Mystical evil, because of their opinion?

No he isn't. He is saying the issue isn't 100% evil on one side & 0%on the other. Or that it isn't black & white, but a mixture of gray. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

17 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

How do we actually know that though? Sansa was perceived as very beautiful at 11 as well and everyone looked at her back then 100% as a child. Brooke Shields, Natalie Portman were beautiful at 11 and also 100% looked like children

I would be interested in this though, as it would change some things for me. 

[corbon]

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

Why focus so much on gender all the time? There are men, who agree with @Mystical's (don't even know, if they are female) and my opinion as there are women like teej6, who lean towards yours. I assure you, if the genders were reversed I'd feel exactly the same way. It has nothing to do with gender at all.

It does. 
There are people of both sexes on both sides, yes. 
But on this particular issue its relevant. Every single person in this thread, as best I can tell, that focuses on Sansa being 12 and therefore Tyrion's desire for her being evil pedophilia, seems to be coming at the issue in a typically feminine way - desire is mentally based, more than physically based. 
Tyrion is a man and male desire is more physically based than mentally based. 
Sansa is physically quite advanced according to the text.

There are spectrums of course, and there is no doubt a lot of overlap. But in general, male desire is physical more than mental and female desire the other way.
Tyrion is consistently being vilified as a pedophile by people who ignore that his view of her as a child is her mental state and her physical state is more womanly than these people seem to remember.
I don't think thats fair.

I also think he's being vilified for his desires, not his actions, in this particualar sub-case. And I think thats evil.

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

How do we actually know that though? Sansa was perceived as very beautiful at 11 as well and everyone looked at her back then 100% as a child. Brooke Shields, Natalie Portman were beautiful at 11 and also 100% looked like children.

Sansa is describing how her breasts have grown, that's not unusual most 12 year olds have boobs, but they still have the faces of children.

And it's actually never said, that Sansa is specifically very tall. The Hound calls her tallER. She has grown, because, that's what children do.

The evidence has been presented in the text already, I think it was @Alexis-something-Rose?

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

Tyrion actually looks at her naked body and says "you are a child" what more proof do we need, that she still looks like a child. A very beautiful one at that, but a child. He calls her so himself.

He looked at her then and saw not just her nakedness, but her inexperience, uncertainty and discomfort. 
The text tells us elsewhere that she is very much a woman.

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, that's not true. Women are just as visual. As you can see from Sansa's reaction to Tyrion. Maybe we are politer about it though and that's where that rumor comes from dunno

It is true. there's a spectrum and it overlaps and the same person can be on diffferent parts of the spectrum at different time. But in general, men are more visual, less mental. Tyrion is being castigated from a point of view that ignores the physical aspect and focuses on the mental.

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

Are you seriously calling @Mystical evil, because of their opinion?  

No, I'm saying that attitude is evil. She can choose to keep it, or not. Even keeping it won't make her evil. Only acting evil will do that.

[corbon]

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He could have said no, certainly, but why would he? He literally had not one single reason to say no to the marriage. 

He was willing to say no. It was his judgement that the result of that would be worse for her.
He offered to her to say no anyway. She turned down the offer.

[Nagini's Neville]

18 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I would disagree here. I think women, generally, are much more mental. It's part of the reason women are made "beautifully". Of course there are exceptions to every rule, I just know I'm more mental & have read that women generally are. 

I've talked to quite a lot of men about that issue and all of them have said, that "knowing" certain things like distress of their partner, their partner not enjoying themselves, them not wanting it, being to young etc. has a direct impact on their arousal. And it does absolutely not matter how beautiful the girl/woman is.  

So I certainly don't think most men would be aroused by a forced afraid 12 year old, just because she is beautiful.

And that women are very visual as well, we can see here with Sansa. We also don't want to sleep with someone that we don't find physically attractive. 

So I guess we just happen to disagree here.

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No he isn't. He is saying the issue isn't 100% evil on one side & 0%on the other. Or that it isn't black & white, but a mixture of gray. 

He edited his post. now it's clear what he meant. Before it said 100% is evil.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, corbon said:

He was willing to say no. It was his judgement that the result of that would be worse for her.
He offered to her to say no anyway. She turned down the offer.

Oh for sure. Mystical was saying he should or could have said no immediately when it was told to him so that's what I was referring to. 

Also for what it's worth the wiki says 

"As she has grown up, her figure has been described as tall, graceful, and womanly"

[Mystical]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Is this stated in the text? If so I don't recall it. At any rate I don't think it's fair to say he does nothing to stop any of it & then say well, yeah he does that but that doesn't count because reasons. 

Only if ignored the above evidence presented by @Nagini's Neville. That's the text right there. If he stops it for Sansa's sake, then we can talk. And coming across a beating by accident and never at any other point make sure she isn't beaten again won't get him a cookie from me. Because he clearly doesn't care about her well being.

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He could have said no, certainly, but why would he? He literally had not one single reason to say no to the marriage. 

Also, to be fair, it wasn't just "offered" to him. He was told he would marry her. He obviously has some say here else Tywin wouldn't have told him what he would do if Tyrion refused but it wasn't an offer either.

Why would he? Again such an easy answer. Not add himself to the list of Lannisters who mistreat and hold prisoner a poor 12 year old girl (and he was already on the list by supporting his family by proxy). Apparently it needs to be repeated but for Sansa's sake. If he's such a swell guy, that's the reason right there.

He was told to marry her and then somehow he's like 'but you have the option of choosing another Lannister Sansa'? Yeah that sounds like he didn't have have a way out at all.

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think the poster explained what he thinks it has to do with it pretty plainly but I'll give it a go. Men are very visual, when a naked woman (yes she was a child but looks like a woman) is in front of them any straight man would have a pretty hard time not responding physically. That sort of thing isn't really in their control. 

So, at the chance of sounding vulgar, his mind knew she was a child but his penis did not.

Again why make this about gender? As if the female gaze doesn't exist? I'm sure Marvel has all their main male stars beef up to the max and then take their shirt off in movies for the male gaze. And you ignore one very vital point and it's an important one. He might not have control of his penis' reaction but he sure as hell has control over his actions. If he knew she was a child and on some level thought it was wrong (which he did), then he shouldn't have touched her and almost raped her. The former he did and the latter only didn't happen because of his issues.

14 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He has no inability to take her maidenhead. He is quite capable, as we are reminded again & again through out the series.  

What does that have to do with what I wrote? When did I say he had trouble with that? Reading more carefully might be in order.

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He was faced with some pretty rough choices. This doesn't negate Sansas trauma in the slightest but marrying her was the best option presented to him. 

I don't know if he was deluding himself there. That's an interesting concept though. Do you think if the groom were, say, Jaime, instead of Tyrion he would still be deluding himself?

Tyrion's best option in the marriage department is literally a beautiful child prisoner. That's the only way he has to get such a wife. And that's utterly selfish on his end and completely ignores the child prisoner.

Of course he was deluded. He knew, and we know he knows via his thoughts, that Sansa had no reason to trust him or like him or have any positive feelings towards him because of what his family was doing to her and her family. Yet he still expected her to be a picture perfect wife (partly due to the role women serve in their system) that will eventually fulfill his fantasy. The same way he deluded himself with Shae.

Jamie doesn't matter to this topic. As Jamie is a different character with very different issues so any discussion about that is moot.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I've talked to quite a lot of men about that issue and all of them have said, that "knowing" certain things like distress of their partner, their partner not enjoying themselves, them not wanting it, being to young etc. has a direct impact on their arousal. And it does absolutely not matter how beautiful the girl/woman is.

Oh yeah, I don't mean to imply those things don't matter at all, only that superficially, men are attracted to what pleases their eyes, while women are attracted to what pleases their minds. 

4 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He edited his post. now it's clear what he meant. Before it said 100% is evil

Oh good

[corbon]

33 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Both Cersei and Tyrion did, because of Jaime.

Fair cop guv. I don;t get everything right all the time.
It was Tyrion that thought of her though, and reminded the others.

The tall thin is explicit later, in AFFC. But if she's developing her chest, she'll also be developing her height. Growth spurts tend to go in sync.

[Mystical]

15 minutes ago, corbon said:

No, I'm saying that attitude is evil. She can choose to keep it, or not. Even keeping it won't make her evil. Only acting evil will do that.

Calling my attitude evil makes it sooooo much better. /s And if choosing to empathize with the child prisoner bride that has no choice instead of the adult with all the choices makes me evil, then I don't want to be good anyway.

If that's the best defense you have in regards to my opinion you might not understand the first rule of discussion. Attack the post, not the poster.

[Nagini's Neville]

13 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh yeah, I don't mean to imply those things don't matter at all, only that superficially, men are attracted to what pleases their eyes, while women are attracted to what pleases their minds. 

Hm, okay but I'd still argue, that's very much a generalization since men are also attracted to personality and what not. It's not just what's in front of their eyes. 

And when it comes to most women, looks are very much part of what pleases their minds as well. Otherwise nobody would care about Jason Mamoa 

So I just don't think there is a big difference in that regard. Both men and women on average prefer attractive partner. 

And someone's personality can turn an attractive person into an unattractive one for both genders as well.

Cordon did actually mean mystical's attitude was evil, so I was not far of.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Why would he? Again such an easy answer. Not add himself to the list of Lannisters who mistreat and hold prisoner a poor 12 year old girl (and he was already on the list by supporting his family by proxy). Apparently it needs to be repeated but for Sansa's sake. If he's such a swell guy, that's the reason right there.

Well, to begin with I'm not saying he is such a swell guy. I'm saying he made the best choice for himself. It would have been very heroic of him, for all his actions to have been in the best interest of Sansa but that isn't the story nor am I arguing as such. But ultimately he did think marrying her was the better choice for her as well. 

He is a Lannister, not a Stark. He has to live with & be a part of the Lannister family. He owes no allegiance to Sansa or the Starks. It would have been great for Sansa if he decided he was just only going to operate in what is the best for Sansa but it wouldn't be in his own best interest. 

14 minutes ago, Mystical said:

He was told to marry her and then somehow he's like 'but you have the option of choosing another Lannister Sansa'? Yeah that sounds like he didn't have have a way out at all

Who said he didn't have any way out? I certainly didn't. I specifically said he did so either you didn't read my post or you are deliberately making up arguments. 

15 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Again why make this about gender? As if the female gaze doesn't exist? 

I don't know any other way to explain it to you. No one is "making it about gender". This is one part of explaining why Tyrion may have been sexually aroused by someone as young as Sansa. 

I never suggested the female gaze doesn't exist either, nothing remotely close to that. 

18 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I'm sure Marvel has all their main male stars beef up to the max and then take their shirt off in movies for the male gaze

Again, nothing close to what I argued. 

19 minutes ago, Mystical said:

He might not have control of his penis' reaction but he sure as hell has control over his actions. If he knew she was a child and on some level thought it was wrong (which he did), then he shouldn't have touched her and almost raped her. The former he did and the latter only didn't happen because of his issues.

I didn't ignore that point, I was only speaking to the other one. 

Yes, he has control over his actions. I never said otherwise. 

21 minutes ago, Mystical said:

What does that have to do with what I wrote? When did I say he had trouble with that? Reading more carefully might be in order

"He would have not been the laughing stock of the court for his inability to take her maiden head."

Those are your words. Maybe you should read more carefully. 

22 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Tyrion's best option in the marriage department is literally a beautiful child prisoner. That's the only way he has to get such a wife. And that's utterly selfish on his end and completely ignores the child prisoner

That may be his only option (it wasn't, it was just the best option) & it may be selfish & ignoring that she is a child prisoner. The fact remains that as much as Sansa needed a hero, Tyrion isn't it. He had every reason to, and did, act in his own best interest. 

24 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Jamie doesn't matter to this topic. As Jamie is a different character with very different issues so any discussion about that is moot

Well that's convenient isn't it? 

If the thought that Sansa may eventually come to love or care for her husband is a delusion but wouldn't be a delusion if it weren't Tyrion then it matters greatly irt if Tyrion is deluding himself & why. If another person would be reasonable in thinking this then every single reason you gave for him being delusional (she's a prisoner, held hostage, abused by his family, his family killing hers, being used for her birthright) don't matter one iota & the only reason she couldn't/wouldn't come to care for him in time is that he is a dwarf. (By your given reasonings)

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

25 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Hm, okay but I'd still argue, that's very much a generalization since men are also attracted to personality and what not. It's not just what's in front of their eyes. 

And when it comes to most women, looks are very much part of what pleases their minds as well. Otherwise nobody would care about Jason Mamoa 

So I just don't think there is a big difference in that regard. Both men and women on average prefer attractive partner. 

And someone's personality can turn an attractive person into an unattractive one for both genders as well.

Cordon did actually mean mystical's attitude was evil, so I was not far of.

Oh yeah it's definitely a generalization. Absolutely looks matter to an extent to everyone. I only mean that as women we are much more inclined to fall in love with someone's personality (of course if the person isn't visually pleasing to begin with we may never give them the chance to get to know their personality)

I, along with many of my friends, have discussed lots of times -so & so is so cute! Not so much when you first see them, but when you get to know them. I haven't heard many men have that same convo but maybe I'm talking to the wrong men? Lol

I'm pretty sure there are studies that state the same but I'd have to look for them. 

 

As to the bolded it seems I misunderstood. 

ETA: To keep in line with Jason Momoa - he is very visually pleasing to me but he does not make me aroused. While I imagine a man looking at a very attractive, half naked woman would arouse him, generally speaking. 

[Nagini's Neville]

13 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh yeah it's definitely a generalization. Absolutely looks matter to an extent to everyone. I only mean that as women we are much more inclined to fall in love with someone's personality (of course if the person isn't visually pleasing to begin with we may never give them the chance to get to know their personality)

I, along with many of my friends, have discussed lots of times -so & so is so cute! Not so much when you first see them, but when you get to know them. I haven't heard many men have that same convo but maybe I'm talking to the wrong men? Lol

I'm pretty sure there are studies that state the same but I'd have to look for them. 

 

As to the bolded it seems I misunderstood. 

I actually think women tend to be not so honest about how much looks matter to them. I think there was a study about that not so long ago,  that actually detected there wasn't a big difference. maybe I find it.

I certainly have a lot of very "superficial" female friends in that regard, who have precise visions of how a man should look like. And I also have male friends to whom personality is hugely important. And who have fallen in love with women they didn't find initially attractive. Even Hugor said in one of his posts, the more time he sends with someone he likes the more attractive she becomes.

And in general there are a lot of very attractive men, who are with women, who aren't considered traditionally attractive, just as there are attractive women, who are with men, who aren't considered traditionally attractive.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar that's not the study I'm referring to, but something in that direction.

https://www.livescience.com/58607-mens-looks-may-matter-more-than-personality.html

[corbon]

46 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He edited his post. now it's clear what he meant. Before it said 100% is evil.

Yes, I reallised that it wasn't clear how I wrote it, and in fact gave the wrong impression. I was in the process of tidying that up when the reply post popped up. Sorry, I can't really control that, other than being perfect and not making any errors, which ain't ever gonna happen.

28 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Cordon did actually mean mystical's attitude was evil, so I was not far of.

Yes. An attitude of having 100% empathy one one side and 0% empathy with the other is evil. Nothing wrong with the 100%, but plenty with the 0%. And nothing to do with the 100% deserving empathy more. As I said, this is not a zero sum game.
Absolutely, consciously, refusing to share any empathy at all for anyone, is a conscious choice for evil. Luckily for us, there are no consequences here because we are discussing fiction. But it is precisely this attitude that leads to young men who made foolish choices having their lives destroyed by young women who also made foolish choices and regretted it afterwards when both are equally complicit in the choices they made.