Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

I don't believe he even molested her. It reads to me as a gentle natural progression towards the inevitable next step. Its not a fondle. It is implicitly sexual due to the location, but its not for his pleasure, its a questioning move forward - they are supposed to be having sex next.
The proof that it was  a question for her, and he accepted her response, is what happened next. Her feelings overcame her conscious choices and he stopped immediately, even when she had actively given assent. 

She had not given actively assent. She never consented to the marriage. He tells her to get on the bed and tells her "No", when she wants to cover herself. You don't have to fight with nails and teeth to be molested or raped. If your consent is not given and the other person does it anyway, it's rape or sexual assault.

If a kidnap victim gives in to their kidnappers sexual advances, without being explicitly forced to, this is also considered rape. Same situation here. 

Definition of sexual assault:

Sexual assault is an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.[1] It is a form of sexual violence, which includes rape (forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), groping, child sexual abuse or the torture of the person in a sexual manner.[1][2][3]

Child sexual abuse, also called child molestation, is a form of child abuse in which an adult or older adolescent uses a child for sexual stimulation.[1][2] Forms of child sexual abuse include engaging in sexual activities with a child (whether by asking or pressuring, or by other means), indecent exposure (of the genitals, female nipples, etc.), child grooming, child sexual exploitation [3][4][5] or using a child to produce child pornography

 

I also call what Robert did to Cersei and Aerys did to Rhaella rape, even though in universe they do nothing against the law.

But Tyrion molests Sansa even in universe, because Joffrey is a bastard and no son of Robert's, therefore has no right to give her away in marriage and her father was no traitor, but was executed unjustly. Therefore the right to give her away in marriage belongs only to her older brother Robb.

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

@Nagini's Neville here's another one that says a little more

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evolution-the-self/201205/the-triggers-sexual-desire-men-vs-women%3famp

Thanks! As a psychology student I hate Psychology today. So much drama LOL- dunno, how often I've read " the war between the sexes" haha but they of course always write articles based real empirical studies so thanks, that was a good one.

So yes I guess you do have a point, at least in regards to men  But I do think the study has for sure some flaws and there must be also some newer ones out on this topic, since it's from 2012, but that would be now my job to find those  

I dont disagree, that a lot of men "work" that way, but I'd say a lot women work more similarly, then presented here. Probably not exactly the same. Visual stimuli do probably not activate arousal as quickly as they do for men, but IMO they still play a major role. For example 1/3 of pornography viewer are actually female.

And what is also interesting is what a strong stimulus women's sexual pleasure is. And that's also what my male friends/ my bf reports. 

And this is actually what I mostly tried to get at, that a lot of men maybe even most, would not be sexually aroused by a beautiful girl, that' s obviously very distressed and afraid, who is genuinely suffering in the scenario. Even ppl, who are into BDSM report, that a major factor for their arousal is the consent of their partner and the knowledge, that they are experiencing genuine pleasure as well. And I also think the child part, especially when you are completely aware of it would be a major turn off for a most men. So the mental part IMO does matter in those cases.

But thinking about it a bit and reading this article made me agree with you, that for a lot of women it is not just about seeing a beautiful man, but also about the scenario, that is connected to him. So our brains in general probably need a little bit more time "to get there".

That's why I'm always so frustrated, when ppl bash Twilight for example. Because even though there is no sex in it and I definitely didn't explicitly fantasize about sex while reading it as a kid, IMO it is the equivalent for what probably porn is for teenage boys. It is a fantasy, that speaks to some baser evolutionary instincts. So yeah, it's not "real literature", but there is a reason, why it's so successful.

I think women swooning over the Hound is a good example of how the scenario is very important as well. The Hound is an incredibly violent man in an incredibly violent world, who happens to protect two relatively powerless little girls and even though being abusive (which we get a backstory for so can "be excused") he never physically harms them, while harming a lot of other people though.

I also believe swooners would see him completely differently, if Mycah was a girl, even tough he tells us he has killed other children and women or we'd knew he was a rapist.

Take the Hound out of his world, a lot of admirers would probably feel differently about him.

What is interesting however is, that the guys in those stories are usually other worldly good-looking, always tall and muscular and young and often perfect in every way. So looks do matter in those scenarios as well very much (even the Hound is depicted in fan art mostly as attractive, even though we know, he is not), but I guess the impact of good-looks is not so immediate, than it is for men. 

It is the whole scenario,  not just singled out body parts.

Given that those scenarios often depict utterly unattainable ideals of men, I actually argue, that women objectify men just as much as men objectify women, just in a different way.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Is this stated in the text? If so I don't recall it. At any rate I don't think it's fair to say he does nothing to stop any of it & then say well, yeah he does that but that doesn't count because reasons. 

When he stops her public beating I can't recall him thinking this will look bad, because of Jaime. Maybe @Mystical can provide some quotes for that? And he obviously takes care of her after and offers her protection. So that's great. During the riot Tyrion's and Cersei's concern for her is however clearly mainly because of Jaime. Which is understandable since he is their brother and Sansa is ultimately nobody to them. I've provided the quote for that somewhere I think.

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He has no inability to take her maidenhead. He is quite capable, as we are reminded again & again through out the series. 

 

I think Mystical was referring to that he could have refused the marriage and therefore wouldn't have been in this position. Not that he wash't physically capable of doing it.

[Nagini's Neville]

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, to begin with I'm not saying he is such a swell guy. I'm saying he made the best choice for himself. It would have been very heroic of him, for all his actions to have been in the best interest of Sansa but that isn't the story nor am I arguing as such. But ultimately he did think marrying her was the better choice for her as well. 

Do you have a quote for that please?

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If the thought that Sansa may eventually come to love or care for her husband is a delusion but wouldn't be a delusion if it weren't Tyrion then it matters greatly irt if Tyrion is deluding himself & why. If another person would be reasonable in thinking this then every single reason you gave for him being delusional (she's a prisoner, held hostage, abused by his family, his family killing hers, being used for her birthright) don't matter one iota & the only reason she couldn't/wouldn't come to care for him in time is that he is a dwarf. (By your given reasonings)

hm, I don't really understand the Jaimie question. And I know it's not for me but want to answer anyway 

But I think if Tyrion had treated her differently, as a friend, protector and the child she still is. Being interested in her and her well-being, listening, when she tells him she is afraid, reassuring her. Not sexualizing her. Doing nothing forceful against her will, showing her that he is on her side, he could have won her trust over time. He just had to be really, really patient and prove to her over time, that he won't hurt her. She is so traumatized she can't trust anyone. I think she even could have grown to love him. It would have of course been stockholm syndrome, but I'm kinda sure it could have worked. Sansa actually already liked him beforehand, she prayed for him and didn't forget he saved her from the beating. The main thing, that was "wrong" with him was him being a Lannister.

If he would have been the only person, who was nice and caring to her, she would have grown to love him over time. And very important siding with her over Cersei and Joffrey, maybe telling her how much he hated them etc...Kinda sad, but I think it could have worked.

But IMO with the pity is the death of desire line GRRM wanted to put an end to this possibility. I think Sansas story will be about her free choice in this regard in the end.

[Sigella]

11 hours ago, corbon said:

In their culture, and I suspect law, a wedding needs to be consummated to be finalised. And this is a political/dynastic wedding. For those reasons it is going to be finalised so that it can't be broken.
Sansa is in fact a woman, in these terms, for all that she is still psychologically a child. She also looks like a woman, not a child. She is, unfortunately, one of those kids who looks 12 going on 18, rather than 12 going on 11. She is in fact the very personification of feminine beauty in their culture. 
The price for all that wealth and privilege is that you necessarily don't get to pick whom you marry. And thus sleep with. Sansa knew and understood that.

He gave her an opportunity to cancel the whole thing and marry someone she might prefer more (he didn't have the power to give her real choice).
He protected her from the traditional bedding ceremony (and the predator-in-chief) at great risk and cost to himself.
She assented, limited choice or not, at each step along the way.
And in the end, when her revulsion (and just as much, uncertainty at what to do next) overcame her deliberate conscious choices, he stopped. He gave her that time, even though he was not supposed to. And even at the stated by her risk of there never being a change in their relationship, at the ultimate rejection she gave him, personally, uniquely. He still gave her that.

I cannot see a single time on that whole day that he did not put her needs above his own. 
Even the uncovered nakedness. No doubt he enjoyed it in part, very few men would not in part - because of how she looks and what she represents, not because she is in fact only 12, and completely 12 on the inside, which isn't visual. But I don't think, given the rest of the day and what follows, that it was done for his pleasure in truth. It was to force her to face what was happening. To give her a chance to try and make something good out of the bad. It also gave her the gift of exposing his vulnerability and weakness.

He could very easily have just followed along the day's pre-ordained and inescapable path, married her, bedded her, gotten much of what he wanted. He didn't follow that path at any step along the way.

Instead, he protected her as best he could throughout the day. And beyond. He's giving her those few years you just asked for, even in the explicit rejection she gave him that those few years might stretch forever. He's still giving them to her.

I suspect its actually this event, more even than his conviction for Joffrey's murder and the conversation with and murder of his father, that pushes him into such a dark and destructive path that he follows later.
 

 

I see your point but I disagree with it.

Forcing her to undress and exposing himself I count as bedding related activities, so he gave her no time at all imo.

I think if the Tysha rape never happened Tyrion wouldnt have hesitated to rape Sansa.

None of us can know what the truth to it is, unless gGRRM decides to elaborate on it in the comong books. Still very interesting to see how differently people interpret the story though.

[Nagini's Neville]

On 12. Februar 2020 at 4:50 AM, corbon said:

I think that the text says otherwise. She's not just 'budding' (I don't get how that works as a term, for developing breasts), she's developed well enough to have trouble lacing her jerkin top and to have stableboys staring open-mouthed at her cleavage.

12 going on 18 is purely physical, and deliberately exaggerated to make the point (and because in some cases 12 going on 16 could still be accused of pedophilia and distract from the point, which is that she is physically quite womanly, even though emotionally a child.

She is still a child, yes. She is going through changes yes. But whether its GRRM's writing at fault or not, some of those changes, the most visual ones, are much further ahead than others.

Thin was supposed to be thing, BTW. 

I know this is a WF- response, but since you said something similar to me as well and I haven't answered yet, I'll do that to this post  

I actually have never called Tyrion a pedophile. He is from a different culture.

But I still don't think Sansa's physical description gives us reason to believe, that she is that much more developed, than the average 12 year old.

Having breasts as a 12 almost 13 year old is quite the norm and if they grow, you don't fit into your clothing anymore. That doesn't mean however, that she has suddenly adult women's breasts, just that her clothing, that were made for a child, doesn't fit her anymore.

And yeah sadly as soon as you do have breasts people stare at them/you. That happens even in our culture, I worked as child model so I know all about that. But IMO every 12 year old still always have the face of a 12 year old. I pretty much have now the same seize as I had as a 12 year old and height as well. But when I look at old pictures I still see a normal 12 year old, I didn't look that much older, than my peers IMO.

That being said. I think we would consider the Westerosi society/culture just a bit pedophilic in general. There are cultures like that today and most men of those cultures arent biologically pedophiles.

Still except for Dany and her mom and Jeyne nobody else marries at 12/13 in the text, the vast majority of the brides are 15 or older( Margaery to Renly, Jeyne W. Cersei, Catlyn, Lysa, Roslin, Alys Karstark, Lyanna) so I also don't think it's the norm to marry that young.

I don't hold Tyrion physical response to Sansa against him. However I've spoken to some male friends and bf and they all say, that distress, fear and in general unwillingness would be the number one reason to kill their arousal. Also knowing someone is a too young is a big turn off. But people are different from one another. I wouldn't even be mad at Tyrion, if he was biologically a pedophile, that's nobody's fault as long as he doesn't act on it. But I hold against him, that he took his clothes of and made her do the same and everything that followed. Even though he perceived her as a child in combination with all of the other issues.

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It is true. there's a spectrum and it overlaps and the same person can be on diffferent parts of the spectrum at different time. But in general, men are more visual, less mental. Tyrion is being castigated from a point of view that ignores the physical aspect and focuses on the mental.

I never castigated him for that. I have mainly a problem with his actions not his physical response. And I changed my opinion on the visual vs. mental thing, L<3 R provided me with an article, that made me understand what you were talking about. My answer in #182, if you are interested.

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No, I'm saying that attitude is evil. She can choose to keep it, or not. Even keeping it won't make her evil. Only acting evil will do that.

I personally don't find that very nice. Ppl could have opinions about your attitude as well and they don't say that to you.

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Yes. An attitude of having 100% empathy one one side and 0% empathy with the other is evil. Nothing wrong with the 100%, but plenty with the 0%. And nothing to do with the 100% deserving empathy more. As I said, this is not a zero sum game.
Absolutely, consciously, refusing to share any empathy at all for anyone, is a conscious choice for evil. Luckily for us, there are no consequences here because we are discussing fiction. 

Say that to a rape victim or a victim of any other horrible crime like that. Sometimes your empathy is just exhausted for the other side and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Society has plenty of empathy for the predators left usually, often more than for the victims, depending, who the predator and where (country) it happens of course. That doesn't mean, that you want those ppl being treated inhumanly or suffer or anything. But it's not evil to have no empathy for them. Ppl like you, who are capable of that(I don't mean that as a negative thing) can do that then, usually there are enough ppl, who can do that.

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But it is precisely this attitude that leads to young men who made foolish choices having their lives destroyed by young women who also made foolish choices and regretted it afterwards when both are equally complicit in the choices they made.

 @Mystical not having any empathy for Tyrion in this scenario has absolutely nothing to do with women accusing someone falsely of sexual assault. 

Thanks for the tall quote. I guess she is tall then.

[Mystical]

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

When he stops her public beating I can't recall him thinking this will look bad, because of Jaime. Maybe @Mystical can provide some quotes for that? And he obviously takes care of her after and offers her protection. So that's great. During the riot Tyrion's and Cersei's concern for her is however clearly mainly because of Jaime. Which is understandable since he is their brother and Sansa is ultimately nobody to them. I've provided the quote for that somewhere I think.

I'm not sure if this is Tyrion's thought when he interrupts her beating (it's not his POV chapter right?). But there are only 2 options for me that make any logical sense in regards to Tyrion's character. He is worried about word getting back to the Starks at how Sansa is treated and that they could retaliate by doing something to Jamie. He is after all worried about Jamie when it comes to the riots so it's a normal conclusion to come to. Or, since he is fully on board the Lannister power train, he's worried about the public image of their regime and how this could damage their image in the eyes of Lords who the Lannisters might need an alliance with.

I thinks it's safe to say thought that it has nothing to do with Sansa's well being at all. The riot is after the beating incident and he's not worried about her for her sake in the riot. And since he never takes any steps to prevent further beatings, it's IMO a natural conclusion that he doesn't give a damn about her or her safety.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And yeah sadly as soon as you do have breasts people stare at them/you. That happens even in our culture, I worked as child model so I know all about that. But IMO every 12 year old still always have the face of a 12 year old. I pretty much have now the same seize as I had as a 12 year old and height as well. But when I look at old pictures I still see a normal 12 year old, I didn't look that much older, than my peers IMO.

I'm going to share a little anecdote as why this talk every page about Sansa being womanly enough below the neck to be considered a woman rather than a child is disturbing to me. I have a friend who developed early, like really early. She had her first period at age 9, started developing breasts at age 10 and stopped physically growing at age 12-13. Apparently to some in this thread that means she would be considered a woman at 10 (just because her curves were starting to develop), therefor it's fine for men to be attracted to her and want to sleep with her. And as you said, faces however don't look much different that a regular child that age. I even looked at old photos because of this discussion. She towers over everyone (and is twice the height of the smallest in the class which looks hilarious to be honest) but just comparing their faces, she looks just as much a child as everyone else.

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I think Mystical was referring to that he could have refused the marriage and therefore wouldn't have been in this position. Not that he wash't physically capable of doing it.

Which is what I said in my original post but the person chose to ignore it and twist it into something else.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 @Mystical not having any empathy for Tyrion in this scenario has absolutely nothing to do with women accusing someone falsely of sexual assault.

My not having empathy for Tyrion in this specific situation comes down to a very simple fact. Choice. Sansa has absolutely no choice in anything that's going on. Even the 'choice' of Lancel is not a choice because he is a Lannister and the goal was to marry Sansa into their family no matter what. They could have paraded 50 guys in front of Sansa and told her to pick one but those 50 guys would all be Lannisters. So it's not a choice.

Tyrion had choices every step of the way. It was ultimately his choice to marry her or not. He could have chosen to tell her beforehand what was going to happen. And as her now husband, all the choices in regards to what happens in the bedroom are his. And Tyrion chose to marry her to further benefit himself. He chose to make her a Lannister prisoner for life for his own ambition. He wanted to sleep with his child prisoner bride (that he keeps referring to as a child, as do other people in the story). He chose not to go through with it in the end because of his issues and not for her sake.

I have plenty of empathy for Tyrion in parts of the story, for example when it comes to how he is treated by his own family (I would have empathy for anyone who is abused), how society views him and the Tysha reveal. I just don't in this situation with Sansa.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 hours ago, Mystical said:

And he knows that how? Because I'm sure if you asked Sansa, she would have said that her best option was Willas Tyrell. But Tyrion's daddy took that opportunity away from her

He doesn't know it, he thinks it. That's why I said he thinks it. 

I agree Tywin took her best opportunity away, maybe we should be blaming him here. 

11 hours ago, Mystical said:

So why am I supposed to give him any leeway? He is helping his family to destroy hers and advance himself over their dead bodies and making her his prisoner for life.

You don't have to give him leeway if you don't want but to say his motives should have been what is best for Sansa is ridiculous. 

11 hours ago, Mystical said:

You are backtracking. Because in the quote I responded to, you specifically said 'it wasn't really an offer'. I certainly didn't make that up

I said it was not really an offer & it wasn't. I did not say he had no way out. I went on to explain he actually DID have some say (or a way out) but that he was not merely "offered" Sansa's hand. The two things are not mutually exclusive. It doesn't have to be an offer OR no way out. 

11 hours ago, Mystical said:

More backtracking. You specifically singled out the male gaze in your reply to me. If you didn't mean to make it gender specific or say there is a female gaze, then you shouldn't have singled out the male gaze and/or included that a female gaze exists. I can only reply to what you actually answer, not what you potentially leave unsaid

Yes I singled out male gaze because that's what I'm speaking on but you are the one that talks/thinks in absolutes. Had you been following the discussion you would see that in several places I have specifically said, over & over, that I'm speaking in general terms, that looks matter to females also, & that there are exceptions always. I haven't once changed my stance on that. You assumed because I said males are generally more visually stimulated that means females are not visually stimulated at all. 

I haven't backtracked anything, you are using a straw man argument. 

11 hours ago, Mystical said:

Very convenient that every reply of yours is 'I never said otherwise'. How would I know what you would or wouldn't say otherwise? My reply is a direct response to what you wrote. Not what you potentially left out. And that's all I can do

No that's the issue. You are using straw man to make up arguments I never made. You are using something I said to assume something more - I said males are more visually stimulated = females are not visually stimulated at all, I said Tyrion wasn't really "offered" Sansa's hand = he had no way out of marrying her, I didn't reply to your assertion originally that Tyrion has control over his actions = I think Tyrion doesn't have control over his actions. (The reason I didn't speak on it to begin with, is because I agree so there was nothing to debate)

It's classic straw man tactic. 

11 hours ago, Mystical said:

You accused me of insinuating that Tyrion had trouble performing and then went on about how we and everyone else knows he doesn't.

No, I accused you of saying, not insinuating, that he was unable to take her maidenhead, which is what you said. "his inability to take her maidenhead" I went on to explain that there is no inability to take it so that statement is false. He was capable & chose not too. 

11 hours ago, Mystical said:

So again I ask. Why am I supposed to feel sympathy for him? Or empathize with him? He only cared about himself and not about her at all, THE END. Which is the point you just made. But I'm sure you will backtrack on that, again

My argument is not against your sympathy or lack there of for Tyrion. My argument is against your assertion that Tyrion is the bad guy or wrong for operating in his own best interest instead of someone else's. 

11 hours ago, Mystical said:

No. You tried to move the goal post. We were not discussing Jamie because Jamie is in fact not in this position. So he's not a factor in this discussion. It's not convenient, I just decided not to engage in your attempt to move the goal post. Simple really

It is very simple, but no goal posts have been moved. I was comparing Tyrion to Jaime. 

11 hours ago, Mystical said:

LMAO. I never once mentioned his dwarfism. Thanks for proving that you love twisting what someone writes and put words in their mouth they haven't even said and deliberately ignore the point. And the hilarious part is that we know Tyrion has had these thoughts consciously about their situation (it's literally in the text). The mental gymnastics you went through to arrive at 'by your given reasonings' is impressive though, so props for that.

I think you are very confused. 

1. You said Tyrion is deluding himself by thinking Sansa would or could ever care for him because of x,y,z.

2. I asked if you would think the same if it were Jaime in Tyrion's position

3. You refused to answer citing Jaime is irrelevant in this discussion. 

4. I explained to you why I asked & what the relevancy is, going a step further to give you my argument if you did think Jaime wouldn't be deluding himself.

5.  Your reply: I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT DWARVES

I think you are purposefully twisting things here but maybe you sincerely don't understand. 

If that has tired or frustrated your brain in some manner it does shed some light on this discussion though. 

[Nagini's Neville]

7 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I'm not sure if this is Tyrion's thought when he interrupts her beating (it's not his POV chapter right?). But there are only 2 options for me that make any logical sense in regards to Tyrion's character. He is worried about word getting back to the Starks at how Sansa is treated and that they could retaliate by doing something to Jamie. He is after all worried about Jamie when it comes to the riots so it's a normal conclusion to come to. Or, since he is fully on board the Lannister power train, he's worried about the public image of their regime and how this could damage their image in the eyes of Lords who the Lannisters might need an alliance with.

I thinks it's safe t say thought that it has nothing to do with Sansa's well being at all. The riot is after the beating incident and he's not worried about her for her sake. And since he never takes any steps to prevent further beatings, it's IMO a natural conclusion that he doesn't give a damn about her or her safety.

Could be, could not be. We don't know. Its probably both. Jaime is obviously his priority.

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I'm going to share a little anecdote as why this talk every page about Sansa being womanly enough below the neck to be considered a woman rather than a child is disturbing to me. I have a friend who developed early, like really early. She had her first period at age 9, started developing breasts at age 10 and stopped physically growing at age 12-13. Apparently to some in this thread that means she would be considered a woman at 10 (just because her curves were starting to develop), therefor it's fine for men to be attracted to her and want to sleep with her. And as you said, faces however don't look much different that a regular child that age. I even looked at old photos because of this discussion. She towers over everyone (and is twice the height of the smallest in the class which looks hilarious to be honest) but just comparing their faces, she looks just as much a child as everyone else.

 

I agree especially in combination with Tyrion obviously knowing she is a child. But I also have to keep in mind, that this is kinda a pedophilic culture, where it is just possible to marry a girl, that had her period and I guess they'd done the same with your friend at ten, if there was no good father to protect her. But it's irrelevant for Tyrion, since he tells us repeatedly he knows she is a child.

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My not having empathy for Tyrion in this specific situation comes down to a very simple fact. Choice. Sansa has absolutely no choice in anything that's going on. Even the 'choice' of Lancel is not a choice because he is a Lannister and the goal was to marry Sansa into their family no matter what. They could have paraded 50 guys in front of Sansa and told her to pick one but those 50 guys would all be Lannisters. So it's not a choice.

Tyrion had choices every step of the way. It was ultimately his choice to marry her or not. He could have chosen to tell her beforehand what was going to happen. And as her now husband, all the choices in regards to what happens in the bedroom are his. And Tyrion chose to marry her to further benefit himself. He chose to make her a Lannister prisoner for life for his own ambition. He wanted to sleep with his child prisoner bride (that he keeps referring to as a child, as do other people in the story). He chose not to go through with it in the end because of his issues and not for her sake.

I have plenty of empathy for Tyrion in parts of the story, for example when it comes to how he is treated by his own family (I would have empathy for anyone who is abused), how society views him and the Tysha reveal. I just don't in this situation with Sansa.

 

100%  And it's really bugging me out, that corbon keeps on talking about her choice and how she gave consent. I don't even know where to start with that. That's some serious victim-shaming IMO. And then he even says the "evil attitude" of not having empathy with Tyrion in this situation is the same women have, when they falsely accuse men of rape. Implying we could possibly accuse someone wrongly of rape, if we don't empathize with Tyrion in this specific situation? I find this really inappropriate and beyond insulting.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I would like to point out here that while she did not consent to the marriage, actively refused it even, she agrees eventually. Of course this is only under threat of being forced violently to do it - so no true agreement. It's important though that the person forcing her here is Cersei, Tywin, & even Joffrey throws in a couple of threats. Sansa ultimately decides it would be better for her to go along quietly rather than be carried & forced, a good decision on her part, I think. 

She also notes He is not so bad as the rest of them "I'll go" 

My point is that she does recognize Tyrion as not being as bad as the rest of them, he hasn't mistreated her at this point, he has been relatively kind to her & she recognizes this. I don't think it's fair to say Tyrion never thought of her or could have cared less how she was treated etc 

This certainly doesn't take from Sansas trauma & I just want to make clear ahead of time that any thing I say to seemingly defend Tyrion, isn't a defense or to take away from Sansas pain, it's only to clarify, or give potential reasons for his behavior. This is such a touchy subject & emotions get so high here that I feel like I have to repeatedly reaffirm that I'm not trying to downplay the terrible situation Sansa is in. I do think though that maybe some of my anger was misguided irt Tyrion originally. I think much more of this anger should lie with Cersei & Tywin, because they are the ones who ultimately forced Sansa & (to a much lesser degree) Tyrion into this situation. 

That being said I would like to go through the chapter a little bit & explain myself a little further. After Sansa refuses to marry Tyrion & is told she will be forced to & hence decides she will go along quietly instead Tyrion asks to have a moment alone with her.

"You are very beautiful, Sansa," he told her

"It is good of you to say so, my lord." She did not know what else to say. Should I tell him he is handsome? He'll think me a fool or a liar. She lowered her gaze & held her tongue. 

"My lady, this is no way to bring you to your wedding. I am sorry for that. And for making this so sudden, and so secret. My lord father felt it necessary, for reasons of estate. Else I would have come to you sooner, as I wished." He waddled closer. "You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce." 

I don't want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas, I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge, and sons named Eddard and Bran and Rickon. But then she remembered what Dontos had told her in the godswood. Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, it's not me they want, only my claim. "You are kind, my lord," she said, defeated. "I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands. 

He studied her with his mismatched eyes. "I know I am not the sort of husband young girls dream of, Sansa," he said softly, "but neither am I Joffrey." 

"No," she said. "You were kind to me, I remember." 

Tyrion offered her a thick, blunt-fingered hand. "Come, then. Let us do our duty."

A couple things of note here - First & foremost he recognizes this is not an ideal situation for her & is kind to her, offers her another option, & sympathizes with her. More importantly though, he cannot hear her thoughts. Outwardly she very much assents to the marriage when speaking to Tyrion. Even inwardly she comes to the conclusion that the "who" of it doesn't matter, they only want her claim. 

She does her "duty" through out the ceremony but refuses to bend down for him to put on the bride's cloak, something she feels ashamed about almost immediately. She feels ashamed because her anger & bitterness is misguided as well & she recognizes this. She is taking it out on the only person she can take it out on - she has no power to punish Cersei, Tywin, or Joffrey, she only holds this very little power to punish Tyrion & so she does. I do not blame her in the slightest, I only note she is ashamed because it lends credence to the fact that she recognizes this is no more his fault than hers. 

After they kiss, she notes: He is so ugly, Sansa thought when her face was close to hers. He is even uglier than the hound. 

She doesn't seem to note his age at all, which is what I & others get hung up on. 

Throughout the feast Sansa is bitter & Tyrion drank heavily & ate little. They are both clearly distressed here. Again, I don't mean to imply Tyrion's distress is more or comparable to Sansas only that neither of them are having a great time. 

Garlan while dancing with her says:

"My lady wife is most concerned for you, he said quietly, one such time. 

"Lady Leonette is too sweet. "Tell her I am well." 

"A bride at her wedding should be more than well." His voice was not unkind. "You seemed close to tears." 

"Tears of joy, ser." 

"Your eyes give the lie to your tongue." Ser Garlan turned her, drew her close to his side. "My lady, I have seen how you look at my brother. Loras is valiant and handsome, and we all love him dearly... but your Imp will make a better husband. He is a bigger man than he seems, I think." 

This is Sansa's armor, these lies. Ser Garlan sees through them but a less observant person would not. The point being that by all outward appearances Sansa seems to be assenting to her marriage. The only ones that know the full truth of the matter are Cersei & Sansa & Joff to an extent. Even Tywin doesn't know she refused, not that he would care or that it would make any difference to him. 

Also of note is that Ser Garlan speaks highly of Tyrion. 

Joff then tells Sansa, in no uncertain terms, that he will bed her when & if he wishes. That Tyrion will bring her to his bed if he commands it. 

Sansa says he won't. So she does have some faith in Tyrion. 

Then the bedding, Tyrion vehemently refuses the bedding ceremony & threatens to geld the King if he pushes the issue. This is as much for himself as it is for Sansa. 

Sansa goes willingly to the bed chambers. She thinks to her self "What choice do I have" & indeed she has very little choice but my point is that again, outwardly she is assenting. 

Into the chamber Tyrion drinks some more & Sansa thinks it will be easier if she were drunk as well. She drinks but is too nervous to taste it. It is Sansa who initiates the bedding: 

"Would you have me undress, my lord?"

"Tyrion." He cocked his head. "My name is Tyrion, Sansa."

Sansa asks the question, Tyrion ignores it. 

"Tyrion. My lord. Should I take off my gown, or do you want to undress me?" She took another swallow of wine. 

Tyrion ignores the question again, instead deflecting & speaking on his first marriage. 

He then asks her how old she is. She answers 13 when the moon turns. Tyrion says

"Gods have mercy." The dwarf took another swallow of wine. "Well, talk won't make you older. Shall we get on with this, my lady? If it please you?"

"It will please me to please my lord husband." 

Ok so now he recommends getting on with it but still asks her if it's ok, to which she assents. He tells her he is her husband now & that she can remove her armor (speaking of her courtesy, that uses as armor) inviting her to be truthful with him in regards to what she wants & is comfortable with. Now I cannot blame Sansa for not trusting Tyrion with the truth, even though he has been kind to her, he is still a Lannister. But I cannot either blame Tyrion for not being able to read her mind. By all outward appearances she is consenting to this, she is bringing up the undressing & not once, or twice, but 3 times asks him if he wants her to take her clothes off. 

After they have removed their clothes, Sansa is shy & looking at the ground. Tyrion remarks that she is a child, to which she replies she has flowered. Seemingly arguing with him about her child status. 

"...I know I am ugly-"

"No, my -"

He pushed himself to his feet. "Don't lie, Sansa. I am malformed, scarred, and small but..." she could see him groping "...abed, when the candles are blown out, I am made no worse than other men. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers." He took a draught of wine. "I am generous. Loyal to those who are loyal to me. I've proven I'm no craven. And I am cleverer than most, surely wits count for something. I can even be kind. Kindness is not a habit with us Lannisters, I fear, but I know I have some somewhere. I could be... I could be good to you." 

So, contrary to what has been stated earlier Tyrion did not reach out to her expecting her to comfort him, but rather was stating a hard truth. He is ugly. She, being the courteous lady she is tries to argue but he will have none of it. He is telling her yes, I am ugly, but I have other redeeming qualities. 

He is as frightened as I am, Sansa realizes. 

When she has no reply to this, Tyrion says "I understand" bitterly. He isn't bitter because she didn't comfort him, or because she doesn't want him, but because he has given her these other redeeming qualities & it appears to him those mean nothing to her, that she only cares about looks. Of course that isn't the case. She is frightened & pities him & she says "Pity was death to desire" He is probably somewhat bitter over being pitied as well. He announces at this point for her to get in bed & for them to do their duty. This is, in their society, their duty. That Sansa is beautiful & Tyrion experienced makes this much easier on Tyrion than Sansa. As a man, in this world, Tyrion already holds much more power than Sansa but when you put on top of that that Sansa is being held prisoner she ultimately holds no power. We understand this & to a degree Tyrion understands this as well. BUT he has tried to make it perfectly clear to her that she can be honest with him. He has tried to make it clear to her that he will be kind to her, he means her no harm. He comes to understand that she isn't going to enjoy this but is assenting anyway, because it is her duty. So he gets on the bed & puts his hand on her breast. At that point Sansa can no longer maintain her facade of outward assent & involuntarily shudders. It is at this point that Tyrion understands that she isn't merely trying to do her duty, but that for all outward appearances this is traumatizing to her & he stops. 

He swears on his honor that he will never touch her until she wants him too & while it does hurt him when she says 'what if I never want you to?' He still maintains he will not. 

Before I get lynched here I would like to say, again, I am not downplaying the trauma Sansa is going through. She has watched her father be murdered, been mistreated & abused verbally & physically, held captive & forced to wed against her will. What I'm trying to say here is that this isn't Tyrion's fault. All those things have been done to her & she has every right & reason to feel the way she does. From Tyrion's point of view though she has assented to this every step of the way. Of course he is aware this is not her dream wedding, but he offers her the only other option it is within his power to offer her & she declines. I do not blame her for declining or for not trusting Tyrion but he did make an effort to get her to trust him, for her to understand he is not the enemy, & that he will not go further into this without her permission. 

As to her age. I think this is where things get really touchy because, in universe, this is not child molestation. IRL, the age of consent differs from place to place but below that age of consent, a person is considered molested if they are touched by someone regardless of their consent or lack of because a child of that age is said to not be able to consent. In universe that isn't the case. Here, Sansa is a woman flowered & is capable of giving what little consent remains to a women in universe, according to Westerosi standards and she does give that consent to Tyrion, on several occasions. 

The real culprits here are Tywin & Cersei & LF IMO. Little Finger made certain her wedding to Willas could not happen & Tywin decided she would be married to either Tyrion or another Lannister. Cersei drove that point home by threatening to have her carried, kicking & screaming, if need be, to the alter. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But I think if Tyrion had treated her differently, as a friend, protector and the child she still is. Being interested in her and her well-being, listening, when she tells him she is afraid, reassuring her. Not sexualizing her. Doing nothing forceful against her will, showing her that he is on her side, he could have won her trust over time. He just had to be really, really patient and prove to her over time, that he won't hurt her. She is so traumatized she can't trust anyone. I think she even could have grown to love him. It would have of course been stockholm syndrome, but I'm kinda sure it could have worked. Sansa actually already liked him beforehand, she prayed for him and didn't forget he saved her from the beating. The main thing, that was "wrong" with him was him being a Lannister.

I'll try to explain a little more. It is your assertion that, given certain things, over time, Sansa could have grown to love him. I agree with this. Mystical said Tyrion is delusional to think this. I disagree but was asking them if they would feel the same if Jaime were in Tyrion's position instead of Tyrion. Because you think, given certain things, that Sansa may have grown to care for him this question doesn't really apply well to you. 

My point was this: IF it's true that Tyrion is deluding himself by thinking if he is kind to her, loyal to her, etc she may grow to care for him BUT it wouldn't be true if Jaime were in that position instead of Tyrion, then the fact that his family killed hers, held her captive, mistreated her etc doesn't matter because all of those things would be true for Jaime as well. The only thing that would be different is that Jaime is handsome & Tyrion is not. 

 

[Mystical]

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'll try to explain a little more. It is your assertion that, given certain things, over time, Sansa could have grown to love him. I agree with this. Mystical said Tyrion is delusional to think this. I disagree but was asking them if they would feel the same if Jaime were in Tyrion's position instead of Tyrion. Because you think, given certain things, that Sansa may have grown to care for him this question doesn't really apply well to you. 

My point was this: IF it's true that Tyrion is deluding himself by thinking if he is kind to her, loyal to her, etc she may grow to care for him BUT it wouldn't be true if Jaime were in that position instead of Tyrion, then the fact that his family killed hers, held her captive, mistreated her etc doesn't matter because all of those things would be true for Jaime as well. The only thing that would be different is that Jaime is handsome & Tyrion is not. 

 

Why do you keep bringing up Jamie? I just don't understand what the point of that is other than shifting the goal post of the discussion. And for the record, we are talking about the wedding/bedding time only. Never in my discussion did I bring up the long term prospect of his wooing technique, only that I can't see someone ever getting over the fact that her spouse and their family jailed her for life, mistreated her, killed her family and her spouse advanced themselves over the dead bodies of her family and used her and her body to get themselves some prime real estate.

But by the time of the wedding/bedding we know that Tyrion knows what his family did to her, that she has no reason to trust or like him, that she is a prisoner who was abused by his family and that his family his killing hers. These are things Tyrion has acknowledged but for some reason slip his mind in their chamber when he thinks 'I will give her time, she will come to appreciate me and want me eventually'. In that moment it was complete self-delusion. And it's not like this isn't in his character. He does the exact same thing with Shae. He knows he is only paying for a fantasy but for some reason treats the situation as real despite knowing she has no feelings for him, no obligation to him beyond what he paid for and is only acting out his fantasy. And when he gets a reality check, that it is in fact a fantasy, he gets pissed off. He does the same thing with Sansa, when she doesn't act like the perfect fantasy wife that he imagined, he throws himself a pity party and is even angry with her.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes I singled out male gaze because that's what I'm speaking on but you are the one that talks/thinks in absolutes. Had you been following the discussion you would see that in several places I have specifically said, over & over, that I'm speaking in general terms, that looks matter to females also, & that there are exceptions always. I haven't once changed my stance on that. You assumed because I said males are generally more visually stimulated that means females are not visually stimulated at all. 

I haven't backtracked anything, you are using a straw man argument.

You included the female gaze only after my reply to you so again, my point stands. No straw man on my end.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No, I accused you of saying, not insinuating, that he was unable to take her maidenhead, which is what you said. "his inability to take her maidenhead" I went on to explain that there is no inability to take it so that statement is false. He was capable & chose not too.

And my point was that him not doing it was amusement to the court. That was the entire point in my little paragraph where I mentioned that (and that's exactly what I wrote). You chose to turn it around and act as if I insinuated he can't actually physically do it. @Nagini's Neville understood the difference perfectly, you just chose to put words in my mouth.

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

2. I asked if you would think the same if it were Jaime in Tyrion's position

3. You refused to answer citing Jaime is irrelevant in this discussion.

Again, Jamie is irrelevant. He is not in this situation. Tyrion is and that's the only man we need to discuss. How hard is that to understand?

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

5.  Your reply: I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT DWARVES

I think you are purposefully twisting things here but maybe you sincerely don't understand. 

If that has tired or frustrated your brain in some manner it does shed some light on this discussion though. 

Keep your polite insults to yourself. You keep putting words in my mouth, purposefully twisting what I say, moving goal posts and back tracking. If I was as stupid as you call me here, oh sorry I mean my brain was as tired/frustrated as you insinuate, I would probably not even recognize your attempts to invalidate my points with the aforementioned techniques.

Quote

If the thought that Sansa may eventually come to love or care for her husband is a delusion but wouldn't be a delusion if it weren't Tyrion then it matters greatly irt if Tyrion is deluding himself & why. If another person would be reasonable in thinking this then every single reason you gave for him being delusional (she's a prisoner, held hostage, abused by his family, his family killing hers, being used for her birthright) don't matter one iota & the only reason she couldn't/wouldn't come to care for him in time is that he is a dwarf. (By your given reasonings)

This was your post just 2 pages back. Notice a word in there that you just denied having used? DWARF. I never even mentioned his dwarfism as a reason for anything or made comparisons with other non-dwarves (like you tried to do by bringing in Jamie). You basically twisted everything I said, bring another person into it (Jamie or non-dwarves) and then said everything I brought up as to what Tyrion consciously has acknowledged about the situation with Sansa becomes a non issue if it was anyone but Tyrion. So the only reason why she wouldn't care for her hubby was his physical disability. Maybe it's not my brain that's tired...

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Why do you keep bringing up Jamie?

NN asked for clarification on the question. So I was giving it to her. 

10 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I just don't understand what the point of that is other than shifting the goal post of the discussion.

It's to further the discussion irt your assertion that Tyrion is deluding himself by believing that Sansa could or would ever grow to care for him. 

12 minutes ago, Mystical said:

And for the record, we are talking about the wedding/bedding time only. Never in my discussion did I bring up the long term prospect of his wooing technique, only that I can't see someone ever getting over the fact that her spouse and their family jailed her for life, mistreated her, killed her family and her spouse advanced themselves over the dead bodies of her family and used her and her body to get themselves some prime real estate.

Which is precisely what I am talking about. 

12 minutes ago, Mystical said:

But by the time of the wedding/bedding we know that Tyrion knows what his family did to her, that she has no reason to trust or like him, that she is a prisoner who was abused by his family and that his family his killing hers. These are things Tyrion has acknowledged but for some reason slip his mind in their chamber when he thinks 'I will give her time, she will come to appreciate me and want me eventually'. In that moment it was complete self-delusion

I understand your assertion just fine, I was challenging it. I don't know what the point is in repeating it if you aren't going to answer the question I gave about it.

13 minutes ago, Mystical said:

You included the female gaze only after my reply to you so again, my point stands. No straw man on my end.

No, I had said several times before that, females enjoy visually pleasing things as well. Furthermore, the post that you quoted said men, generally, find visuals MORE stimulating. As in MORE than women. It is absolutely a straw man whether or not I ever mentioned the female gaze because you replied to my statement about men being more stimulated by visuals with an argument that females find things visually stimulating also - an argument I never made & one I specified in previous posts I didn't feel either. 

16 minutes ago, Mystical said:

And my point was that him not doing it was amusement to the court. That was the entire point in my little paragraph where I mentioned that (and that's exactly what I wrote). You chose to turn it around and act as if I insinuated he can't actually physically do it. @Nagini's Neville understood the difference perfectly, you just chose to put words in my mouth.

I can't put words in your mouth when we are writing things out. YOU said "his inability", I don't know if you meant a physical or emotional inability, but either way it was false because he had no inability of any kind. I quoted twice now what you said. If that's not what you meant then fine, but it is what you said. I took your words & responded to them. There was no way for me to know you meant something different than what you stated. 

Again, I didn't insinuate anything, I stated it out, clear & plain that you said he had an inability to take her maidenhead, which is precisely what you said. 

19 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Again, Jamie is irrelevant. He is not in this situation. Tyrion is and that's the only man we need to discuss. How hard is that to understand?

See, the thing is you don't make the rules for the rest of us. So while you may only want to discuss Tyrion, & so is your right, any or all of the rest of us may compare & contrast Tyrion to any other character we wish. If you don't want to engage in that discussion, that is fine but don't act as if I have attempted to "trick" you into something or that I'm moving goal posts or arguing in bad faith simply because you don't want to discuss Jaime. 

21 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Keep your polite insults to yourself. You keep putting words in my mouth, purposefully twisting what I say, moving goal posts and back tracking.

It was no insult, polite or otherwise. Just a statement. I haven't put any words in your mouth or twisted anything you've said - In fact I've pointed out a couple instances where you have done that to me. 

Can you point out to me where I have put words in your mouth or twisted what you said? Just to clarify, this isn't a "feeling" you have. To point it out you would need to say what you originally said & then what I said to twist it or change it. 

Nor have I backtracked or moved goal posts in our conversation. Can you give me an example of where I've done that? Just for clarification purposes: 

Backtrack: If you backtrack on a statement or decision you have made, you do or say something that shows that you no longer agree with it or support it.

To be fair, I have somewhat changed my view on Tyrion's culpability in the whole thing but we didn't discuss things before that so my stance has been the same throughout. 

Moving goal posts: Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt. The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the result is changed, too.

 

So, please, show me where I've done these things. Actually done them, not anything you assumed or made up. Where I have asked for evidence & when presented with it called for more or greater evidence. 

27 minutes ago, Mystical said:

If I was as stupid as you call me here, oh sorry I mean my brain was as tired/frustrated as you insinuate, I would probably not even recognize your attempts to invalidate my points with the aforementioned techniques.

You are the one that likened my post to mental gymnastics, I assumed that meant they tired or frustrated your brain. For what it's worth I do think you understand & are purposefully changing things to fit your agenda, but I don't like to converse in that manner because it doesn't get us anywhere. 

28 minutes ago, Mystical said:

This was your post just 2 pages back. Notice a word in there that you just denied having used? DWARF.

No, you are misunderstanding again. My # 5 claim said : Your reply - so the text following that statement is something you said, not me. "I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT DWARVES."

That was your reply to my question & explanation about Jaime, I'm not saying I never said anything about a dwarf. Maybe reading more closely is in order. 

30 minutes ago, Mystical said:

 I never even mentioned his dwarfism as a reason for anything or made comparisons with other non-dwarves (like you tried to do by bringing in Jamie). You basically twisted everything I said, bring another person into it (Jamie or non-dwarves) and then said everything I brought up as to what Tyrion consciously has acknowledged about the situation with Sansa becomes a non issue if it was anyone but Tyrion. So the only reason why she wouldn't care for her hubby was his physical disability. Maybe it's not my brain that's tired...

Yes, if it were the case that you believe Jaime would not be deluding himself in the same situation it comes to show that YOU believe the only issue Sansa really has is with his looks. Because all the other things you listed as reasons why Tyrion is deluding himself would be the same for Jaime. If there is something that differs Jaime from Tyrion irt this situation I would expect  you would have named it by now but there aren't any I can think of. 

I'm quite aware you didn't mention his dwarfism as a reason, I mentioned it. I'm making comparisions to non-dwarves. I haven't twisted anything you said, you haven't said anything except "Jaime is irrelevant" "Jaime is moot" "We aren't discussing Jaime" 

At any rate I'm pretty sure I understand where you stand irt Tyrion deluding himself so you don't have to keep referring to it. It was a simple question, meant to discuss whether or not you felt the issues Sansa had with Tyrion were really all the things his family did or if they were more to do with his looks, or a combination of both. Not to try to trick you into anything, not to twist your words, just a simple conversation because it was interesting to me that you thought Tyrion was deluding him self there. It is no longer very interesting to me. 

[teej6]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I would like to point out here that while she did not consent to the marriage, actively refused it even, she agrees eventually. Of course this is only under threat of being forced violently to do it - so no true agreement. It's important though that the person forcing her here is Cersei, Tywin, & even Joffrey throws in a couple of threats... 

Snip...

The real culprits here are Tywin & Cersei & LF IMO. Little Finger made certain her wedding to Willas could not happen & Tywin decided she would be married to either Tyrion or another Lannister. Cersei drove that point home by threatening to have her carried, kicking & screaming, if need be, to the alter. 

Thank you for this very thoughtful and thorough analysis on the topic . I think most posters on this thread that are arguing to look at Tyrion’s merits (as few as they maybe) in this very unfortunate situation is in no way discounting the awful plight Sansa is in. Sansa is the victim in all this and no one is disputing this fact. But to paint Tyrion as the perpetrator of the crime is disingenuous and a gross misunderstanding of the author’s intent in my opinion. Tyrion is acting in his self interest but he is also trying to make the best of a bad situation that he was put in, which he didn’t want or ask for. Empathizing with Tyrion does not in any way diminish the sympathy and pain I feel for Sansa’s position.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

9 minutes ago, teej6 said:

But to paint Tyrion as the perpetrator of the crime is disingenuous and a gross misunderstanding of the author’s intent in my opinion. Tyrion made the best of a bad situation that he was put in that he didn’t want or ask for.

I think it's notable that Tyrion did as much internal persuading of himself to agree to marry Sansa as Tywin did. Tyrion made some fairly feeble objections, but dropped them quite quickly once the idea of marriage to a gorgeous, high-status lady and the prospect of the huge estate of Winterfell took hold. Even the idea that he would be better for her than some other Lannister strikes me as his rationalization to do what he wanted to do, to make it more palatable to himself and overcome his own objections.

In response to Tyrion's objection, Tywin merely says that some other, less-noble lady will be found for him to marry and makes no comment over Tyrion's crude rejection of Lollys Stokeworth. Clearly Tywin was only offering options that Tyrion himself would find objectionable, to better persuade him to come to agreement himself. I think it's notable how quickly Tyrion let himself be persuaded, even aided and abetted that persuasion.

But marriage to some other less-noble lady - even Lollys Stokeworth - would hardly be a fate worse than death for Tyrion. There's a likely possibility that a less-noble lady might be more amenable to being a companionable marriage partner to him than Sansa Stark ever would. I think it's notable that the "bad situation" wasn't really all that bad - for Tyrion.

But that isn't what he wanted. He wanted the status: the status of Winterfell and a highly-desirable wife. He thought it. And by persuading himself to take the opportunity he was being offered to marry Sansa, he asked for it. That makes him a perpetrator.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

18 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I think it's notable that Tyrion did as much internal persuading of himself to agree to marry Sansa as Tywin did. Tyrion made some fairly feeble objections, but dropped them quite quickly once the idea of marriage to a gorgeous, high-status lady and the prospect of the huge estate of Winterfell took hold. Even the idea that he would be better for her than some other Lannister strikes me as his rationalization to do what he wanted to do, to make it more palatable to himself and overcome his own objections.

In response to Tyrion's objection, Tywin merely says that some other, less-noble lady will be found for him to marry and makes no comment over Tyrion's crude rejection of Lollys Stokeworth. Clearly Tywin was only offering options that Tyrion himself would find objectionable, to better persuade him to come to agreement himself. I think it's notable how quickly Tyrion let himself be persuaded, even aided and abetted that persuasion.

But marriage to some other less-noble lady - even Lollys Stokeworth - would hardly be a fate worse than death for Tyrion. There's a likely possibility that a less-noble lady might be more amenable to being a companionable marriage partner to him than Sansa Stark ever would. I think it's notable that the "bad situation" wasn't really all that bad - for Tyrion.

But that isn't what he wanted. He wanted the status: the status of Winterfell and a highly-desirable wife. He thought it. And by persuading himself to take the opportunity he was being offered to marry Sansa, he asked for it. That makes him a perpetrator.

I'd have to re-read that chapter but I don't remember any internal persuading or feeble objections. The only thing I recall him saying or thinking is that he would be better than another Lannister & in fact he would be. He isn't even the only one who says it. We don't know much about Lancel to say he would be better than him but Tyrion does offer Sansa the opportunity to tell him she would prefer that. 

The situation wasn't bad for Tyrion because of who he was marrying. Sansa is beautiful, noble, of a great house, & the heir to WF. There is nothing bad in that. It's bad for Tyrion because he knows he is being married to someone who does not & who will likely never want him. He will forever be in a loveless marriage & potentially a marriage where there is never even the slightest bit of trust. He is not physically attractive & Sansa is never going to want him for his other attributes. That's a rough situation to be in no matter who you are. 

He states explicitly that he wants a partner to love him, that he can love, a companion. He may also want the status (but I think we would be hard pressed to find a highborn person that didn't - it's literally their means to survival) but he didn't always. Look what happened when he married below his station - it's no secret why he would want to marry someone of noble birth. 

[teej6]

45 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

But that isn't what he wanted. He wanted the status: the status of Winterfell and a highly-desirable wife. He thought it. And by persuading himself to take the opportunity he was being offered to marry Sansa, he asked for it. That makes him a perpetrator.

You and I are reading and interpreting the Tywin/ Tyrion conversation very differently and neither of us is going to convince the other on our respective views of how things transpired. And I’d rather take Tyrion and the author literally when Tyrion states the following to Sansa: 

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You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce.

So yeah, we are not going to convince each other. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Do you have a quote for that please?

Sorry, just saw this. I was only referring to Tyrion thinking he would be the better Lannister. I can look up the quote if you want but it'll take a little bit. 

[Nagini's Neville]

On 12. Februar 2020 at 4:54 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I would like to point out here that while she did not consent to the marriage, actively refused it even, she agrees eventually. Of course this is only under threat of being forced violently to do it - so no true agreement. It's important though that the person forcing her here is Cersei, Tywin, & even Joffrey throws in a couple of threats. Sansa ultimately decides it would be better for her to go along quietly rather than be carried & forced, a good decision on her part, I think. 

She also notes He is not so bad as the rest of them "I'll go" 

My point is that she does recognize Tyrion as not being as bad as the rest of them, he hasn't mistreated her at this point, he has been relatively kind to her & she recognizes this. I don't think it's fair to say Tyrion never thought of her or could have cared less how she was treated etc 

This certainly doesn't take from Sansas trauma & I just want to make clear ahead of time that any thing I say to seemingly defend Tyrion, isn't a defense or to take away from Sansas pain, it's only to clarify, or give potential reasons for his behavior. This is such a touchy subject & emotions get so high here that I feel like I have to repeatedly reaffirm that I'm not trying to downplay the terrible situation Sansa is in. I do think though that maybe some of my anger was misguided irt Tyrion originally. I think much more of this anger should lie with Cersei & Tywin, because they are the ones who ultimately forced Sansa & (to a much lesser degree) Tyrion into this situation. 

That being said I would like to go through the chapter a little bit & explain myself a little further. After Sansa refuses to marry Tyrion & is told she will be forced to & hence decides she will go along quietly instead Tyrion asks to have a moment alone with her.

"You are very beautiful, Sansa," he told her

"It is good of you to say so, my lord." She did not know what else to say. Should I tell him he is handsome? He'll think me a fool or a liar. She lowered her gaze & held her tongue. 

"My lady, this is no way to bring you to your wedding. I am sorry for that. And for making this so sudden, and so secret. My lord father felt it necessary, for reasons of estate. Else I would have come to you sooner, as I wished." He waddled closer. "You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce." 

I don't want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas, I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge, and sons named Eddard and Bran and Rickon. But then she remembered what Dontos had told her in the godswood. Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, it's not me they want, only my claim. "You are kind, my lord," she said, defeated. "I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands. 

He studied her with his mismatched eyes. "I know I am not the sort of husband young girls dream of, Sansa," he said softly, "but neither am I Joffrey." 

"No," she said. "You were kind to me, I remember." 

Tyrion offered her a thick, blunt-fingered hand. "Come, then. Let us do our duty."

A couple things of note here - First & foremost he recognizes this is not an ideal situation for her & is kind to her, offers her another option, & sympathizes with her. More importantly though, he cannot hear her thoughts. Outwardly she very much assents to the marriage when speaking to Tyrion. Even inwardly she comes to the conclusion that the "who" of it doesn't matter, they only want her claim. 

She does her "duty" through out the ceremony but refuses to bend down for him to put on the bride's cloak, something she feels ashamed about almost immediately. She feels ashamed because her anger & bitterness is misguided as well & she recognizes this. She is taking it out on the only person she can take it out on - she has no power to punish Cersei, Tywin, or Joffrey, she only holds this very little power to punish Tyrion & so she does. I do not blame her in the slightest, I only note she is ashamed because it lends credence to the fact that she recognizes this is no more his fault than hers. 

After they kiss, she notes: He is so ugly, Sansa thought when her face was close to hers. He is even uglier than the hound. 

She doesn't seem to note his age at all, which is what I & others get hung up on. 

Throughout the feast Sansa is bitter & Tyrion drank heavily & ate little. They are both clearly distressed here. Again, I don't mean to imply Tyrion's distress is more or comparable to Sansas only that neither of them are having a great time. 

Garlan while dancing with her says:

"My lady wife is most concerned for you, he said quietly, one such time. 

"Lady Leonette is too sweet. "Tell her I am well." 

"A bride at her wedding should be more than well." His voice was not unkind. "You seemed close to tears." 

"Tears of joy, ser." 

"Your eyes give the lie to your tongue." Ser Garlan turned her, drew her close to his side. "My lady, I have seen how you look at my brother. Loras is valiant and handsome, and we all love him dearly... but your Imp will make a better husband. He is a bigger man than he seems, I think." 

This is Sansa's armor, these lies. Ser Garlan sees through them but a less observant person would not. The point being that by all outward appearances Sansa seems to be assenting to her marriage. The only ones that know the full truth of the matter are Cersei & Sansa & Joff to an extent. Even Tywin doesn't know she refused, not that he would care or that it would make any difference to him. 

Also of note is that Ser Garlan speaks highly of Tyrion. 

Joff then tells Sansa, in no uncertain terms, that he will bed her when & if he wishes. That Tyrion will bring her to his bed if he commands it. 

Sansa says he won't. So she does have some faith in Tyrion. 

Then the bedding, Tyrion vehemently refuses the bedding ceremony & threatens to geld the King if he pushes the issue. This is as much for himself as it is for Sansa. 

Sansa goes willingly to the bed chambers. She thinks to her self "What choice do I have" & indeed she has very little choice but my point is that again, outwardly she is assenting. 

Into the chamber Tyrion drinks some more & Sansa thinks it will be easier if she were drunk as well. She drinks but is too nervous to taste it. It is Sansa who initiates the bedding: 

"Would you have me undress, my lord?"

"Tyrion." He cocked his head. "My name is Tyrion, Sansa."

Sansa asks the question, Tyrion ignores it. 

"Tyrion. My lord. Should I take off my gown, or do you want to undress me?" She took another swallow of wine. 

Tyrion ignores the question again, instead deflecting & speaking on his first marriage. 

He then asks her how old she is. She answers 13 when the moon turns. Tyrion says

"Gods have mercy." The dwarf took another swallow of wine. "Well, talk won't make you older. Shall we get on with this, my lady? If it please you?"

"It will please me to please my lord husband." 

Ok so now he recommends getting on with it but still asks her if it's ok, to which she assents. He tells her he is her husband now & that she can remove her armor (speaking of her courtesy, that uses as armor) inviting her to be truthful with him in regards to what she wants & is comfortable with. Now I cannot blame Sansa for not trusting Tyrion with the truth, even though he has been kind to her, he is still a Lannister. But I cannot either blame Tyrion for not being able to read her mind. By all outward appearances she is consenting to this, she is bringing up the undressing & not once, or twice, but 3 times asks him if he wants her to take her clothes off. 

After they have removed their clothes, Sansa is shy & looking at the ground. Tyrion remarks that she is a child, to which she replies she has flowered. Seemingly arguing with him about her child status. 

"...I know I am ugly-"

"No, my -"

He pushed himself to his feet. "Don't lie, Sansa. I am malformed, scarred, and small but..." she could see him groping "...abed, when the candles are blown out, I am made no worse than other men. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers." He took a draught of wine. "I am generous. Loyal to those who are loyal to me. I've proven I'm no craven. And I am cleverer than most, surely wits count for something. I can even be kind. Kindness is not a habit with us Lannisters, I fear, but I know I have some somewhere. I could be... I could be good to you." 

So, contrary to what has been stated earlier Tyrion did not reach out to her expecting her to comfort him, but rather was stating a hard truth. He is ugly. She, being the courteous lady she is tries to argue but he will have none of it. He is telling her yes, I am ugly, but I have other redeeming qualities. 

He is as frightened as I am, Sansa realizes. 

When she has no reply to this, Tyrion says "I understand" bitterly. He isn't bitter because she didn't comfort him, or because she doesn't want him, but because he has given her these other redeeming qualities & it appears to him those mean nothing to her, that she only cares about looks. Of course that isn't the case. She is frightened & pities him & she says "Pity was death to desire" He is probably somewhat bitter over being pitied as well. He announces at this point for her to get in bed & for them to do their duty. This is, in their society, their duty. That Sansa is beautiful & Tyrion experienced makes this much easier on Tyrion than Sansa. As a man, in this world, Tyrion already holds much more power than Sansa but when you put on top of that that Sansa is being held prisoner she ultimately holds no power. We understand this & to a degree Tyrion understands this as well. BUT he has tried to make it perfectly clear to her that she can be honest with him. He has tried to make it clear to her that he will be kind to her, he means her no harm. He comes to understand that she isn't going to enjoy this but is assenting anyway, because it is her duty. So he gets on the bed & puts his hand on her breast. At that point Sansa can no longer maintain her facade of outward assent & involuntarily shudders. It is at this point that Tyrion understands that she isn't merely trying to do her duty, but that for all outward appearances this is traumatizing to her & he stops. 

He swears on his honor that he will never touch her until she wants him too & while it does hurt him when she says 'what if I never want you to?' He still maintains he will not. 

Before I get lynched here I would like to say, again, I am not downplaying the trauma Sansa is going through. She has watched her father be murdered, been mistreated & abused verbally & physically, held captive & forced to wed against her will. What I'm trying to say here is that this isn't Tyrion's fault. All those things have been done to her & she has every right & reason to feel the way she does. From Tyrion's point of view though she has assented to this every step of the way. Of course he is aware this is not her dream wedding, but he offers her the only other option it is within his power to offer her & she declines. I do not blame her for declining or for not trusting Tyrion but he did make an effort to get her to trust him, for her to understand he is not the enemy, & that he will not go further into this without her permission. 

As to her age. I think this is where things get really touchy because, in universe, this is not child molestation. IRL, the age of consent differs from place to place but below that age of consent, a person is considered molested if they are touched by someone regardless of their consent or lack of because a child of that age is said to not be able to consent. In universe that isn't the case. Here, Sansa is a woman flowered & is capable of giving what little consent remains to a women in universe, according to Westerosi standards and she does give that consent to Tyrion, on several occasions. 

The real culprits here are Tywin & Cersei & LF IMO. Little Finger made certain her wedding to Willas could not happen & Tywin decided she would be married to either Tyrion or another Lannister. Cersei drove that point home by threatening to have her carried, kicking & screaming, if need be, to the alter. 

Tyrion is however not so stupid as you paint him here IMO. After he rescued her, he saw right through her lies, even though he called her a good liar. And after they are married, even though she keeps her armor of courtesy, he sees her misery grows everyday. He is a good observer, when it comes to Sansa throughout the books, he always notices, that something is wrong with her, one time earlier in clash he calls her white as milk. When they are married he notices, how her eyes are red from crying over mom and bro, he notices, that she has a haunted look and that grief made her only more beautiful... well yeah. Why should he suddenly be less good of an observer during their wedding ceremony and night, why should he suddenly not be able to look through her courtesy and recognize her misery?

But all of that doesn't matter anyway. Because Tyrion knew from the start, while he was still talking about it with his father, that Tywin would force her. That is a given. And if you have no choice, you can not consent, that's just a fact. Doesn't matter how she apparently behaved or not. Doesn't matter who forced her, she is forced into it. And how please can you tell me, that a smart man like Tyrion wouldn't know that? He lived with this family his whole life, they have been abused him themselves, he knows how Tywin and Cersei operate. Tywin decided, that Sansa would be married and there is no way that doesn't happen and if they have to torture her to make it happen. Tyrion does not force Sansa, but she is forced and Tyrion knows that. 

You do not have to fight with nails and teeth to be raped or sexual assaulted though. Victims display a brought range of behavior while being abused, to deal with the trauma. It doesn't matter, that she offered to take her clothes off, Tyrion knows she was forced. He knows he now as the husband holds all the power, she has 0. Those are the laws, he knows the law. Now, that she is married she tries to play the role, that she was trained her whole life to fulfill. She was forced to promise to Tyrion to obey him. Tyrion knows that. The knowledge that she was forced should be enough for Tyrion.

If a kidnapp victim doesn't rebuff the advances of their captor, it is still considered rape. 

But another very important thing is, that in universe Sansa was unlawfully married. Her father was not a traitor, Joffrey is not Robert's heir. The killing of Eddard Stark was committed based on a lie and Joffrey giving Sansa away in marriage is unlawful - he is nothing but a bastard and Tyrion knows that. He knows, that Ned discovered the truth, he knows, that Joffrey is Jaime's son.

"Who murdered Jon Arryn?” Cersei yanked her hand back. “How should I know?” “The grieving widow in the Eyrie seems to think it was me. Where did she come by that notion, I wonder?” “I’m sure I don’t know. That fool Eddard Stark accused me of the same thing. He hinted that Lord Arryn suspected or … well, believed …” “That you were fucking our sweet Jaime?” She slapped him. “Did you think I was blind as father?” Tyrion rubbed his cheek. “Who you lay with is no matter to me … although it doesn’t seem quite just that you should open your legs for one brother and not the other.” "

A Clash of Kings, Tyrion 1

So Tyrion touching Sansa sexually is unlawful since she "belongs" to her family. Just as it is unlawful that they killed Ned on charges of being a traitor.

Of course Sansa thinks Tyrion is kind, she has never thought differently of him. But just because Sansa doesn't 100% recognize her abuse or that Tyrion is not equally a victim the same way like her or that it is not her duty to sleep with him, that doesn't mean it's not abuse. Sansa also only thinks fondly of the Hound, even though he threatened to kill her to the extent that she actually thought she was going to die that night. She doesn't acknowledge, when Joffrey kisses her and gropes her breast, she doesn't acknowledge LF's forced kisses in her thoughts after the initial shock of him kissing her.

Sansa only 12/13 and has been abused to the point, that every small act of kindness means the world to her. And of course she doesn't think of herself as a child, children never do.

I've never said, that Tyrion spoke unkindly to her or that it wasn't great of him to make sure the bedding ceremony wouldn't happen. I also never said it was Tyrion, who forced her or that it was Tyrion's fault she was forced in the first place. But since he knows she was forced he is now also bearing the responsibility for what happens next. 

If a client knows, that a woman is being forced into prostitution, it doesn't matter, that he is not the one, who forces her. If he touches her he becomes guilty of sexual assault.

Sansa and Tyrion are also intellectually and maturity wise far from equals. So it doesn't really matter what sansa is doing or saying and Tyrion should know that since he is 100% aware of her age, and repeatedly tells her she is a child, so we are aware, that he knows, how immature she is. And he has known her since she was 11, when she still 100% believed in the songs, he knows, that didn't just change over night. He says the last thing my wife needs are more songs. He acknowledges her being a child, or child-women. So making the right decision here should have been on him. If you have the knowledge, but still make the wrong decision, the responsibility is yours. A ton of children are manipulated into initiating their own abuse, that doesn't mean, that the person with the power in the situation is not to blame, just because they didn't start it.

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As to her age. I think this is where things get really touchy because, in universe, this is not child molestation. IRL, the age of consent differs from place to place but below that age of consent, a person is considered molested if they are touched by someone regardless of their consent or lack of because a child of that age is said to not be able to consent. In universe that isn't the case. Here, Sansa is a woman flowered & is capable of giving what little consent remains to a women in universe, according to Westerosi standards and she does give that consent to Tyrion, on several occasions. 

As for the age of consent 12 is still incredibly young even for Westerosi standards. We only see Dany marry with 13 and even Viserys remarks on how young she is. And then we have of course poor Jeyne, but nobody cares about her well-being. And apparently Dany's mom was also 13, but her husband was young as well. So thats more a tysha tyrion situation.

“Are you sure that Khal Drogo likes his women this young?” “She has had her blood. She is old enough for the khal,” Illyrio told him, not for the first time. “Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes … she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt … and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo.” When he released her hand, Daenerys found herself trembling. “I suppose,” her brother said doubtfully. “The savages have queer tastes. Boys, horses, sheep …”

A Game of Thrones, Dany 1

Illyrio says old enough for the Khal. Implying, that she wouldn't be old enough for every man. Ned thought 11 was to young to get engaged. Cat says she was only 12, when she was engaged to Brandon. So I really don't think Ned and Cat would have wanted her to marry at 12. they were both 19,20.

Every other girl is 15 or above at her wedding: Roslin,Cat, Cersei, margaery to renly, Alys Karstark, Lyanna, the girl lyn corbray marries.

No matter how the law is, Tyrion himself recognizes, that Sansa is still a child even before the marriage. When he tells Tywin, he tells Tyrion, he only has to sleep with her once and then can wait a couple of years. Tyrion continues to make the observation that she is a child. We should believe him, when he tells us. This is his opinion. So knowing this it's now also Tyrion's responsibly how to act after he is aware of that information.

Lastly it is not Sansa's duty to sleep with him. Never has and never will be. Even if he tries to make her (and maybe himself) believe that.

 

To what Tyrion has done for her:

1. he was always very polite and nice to her in person, which is amazing since Sansa doesn't experiences much kindness. So that definitely leaves a big impact on her. And I think she likes him right away after their first conversation. ( maybe I'm wrong, thats how I recall it r.n.)

2. He saved her from the continuation of having horrible, cruel sexualized violence imposed on her. For which I'll be forever thankful. He also took care of her wounds, was kind to her and told her wanted to provide her with guards to protect her.

3. He stood up to Joffrey and threatened him and spared Sansa the bedding ritual. But I also think he didn't want to undress himself.

 

But fact is that he didn't actively tried to make sure Sansa wasn't being abused, before he walked in to her beating. And that happened exactly in the middle of the books. 7 Tyrion chapters and several months have passed until then, he has been Hand for quite a while.

This is their first scene:

" “You hurt your arm,” she managed at last. “One of your northmen hit me with a morningstar during the battle on the Green Fork. I escaped him by falling off my horse.” His grin turned into something softer as he studied her face. “Is it grief for your lord father that makes you so sad?” “My father was a traitor,” Sansa said at once. “And my brother and lady mother are traitors as well.” That reflex she had learned quickly. “I am loyal to my beloved Joffrey.” “No doubt. As loyal as a deer surrounded by wolves.” “Lions,” she whispered, without thinking. She glanced about nervously, but there was no one close enough to hear. Lannister reached out and took her hand, and gave it a squeeze. “I am only a little lion, child, and I vow, I shall not savage you.” Bowing, he said, “But now you must excuse me. I have urgent business with queen and council.” "

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 1

So this is great and everything and he is nice, but in the end it's also kind of useless, because all that it does is tell her that she won't get a third active abuser. It still won't help her with Joff an cersei.

 

"“One parting request. Kindly make certain no harm comes to Sansa Stark. It would not do to lose both the daughters.”"

A Clash of Kings, Tyrion 1

I wanna give him credit here, but given to whom he says it (Cersei) this basically just means, after you scurried up with killing the dad and let the other daughter escape you better not let this one die or escape otherwise Jaime is a dead man.

This attitude was stressed during the riot scene as well.

 

Before the riot, we have also this quote to Cersei, suggests that he is aware of the possibility Joff could mistreat Sansa.

"I suspect Martell will treat Myrcella more kindly than Joffrey has treated Sansa Stark." 

A Clash of Kings, Tyrion 4

 

The fact, that he had the highest position in the government after Joffrey and Tywin had given him a lot of power, I agree with SeanF here, that IMO he definitely could have done something to help Sansa sooner. She was also after all an important hostage. 

 

I did not provide quotes for everything. If you want them, please let me know.

[Nagini's Neville]

52 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sorry, just saw this. I was only referring to Tyrion thinking he would be the better Lannister. I can look up the quote if you want but it'll take a little bit. 

I just can not remember him ever thinking, that he'd be better for Sansa as a husband, than any other Lannister. If you know in which "area" it is, I can search myself.