Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

There is no evidence that his offer was sincere

The evidence is that the author put the line in the story with nothing to refute it. 

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

Except his marriage with Sansa wouldn't have been normal considering their families were at war and she was a 12 year old hostage but he went through with it anyway because as I said he wanted a pretty wife and a castle

You're right, it isn't the marriage he wanted, but he went through with it anyway. It's not the marriage Sansa wanted either, but she went through with it anyway. 

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

She is. Tyrion himself acknowledges it.

Just so I understand, when he says he will call off the marriage - that's not the truth even though there is nothing to suggest otherwise, when he says what he really wants in the marriage - that's not the truth either even though there is nothing to suggest otherwise but when he says Sansa is a child - that's the truth even though the entire story tells us otherwise? 

Gotcha. 

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

never said that. the looks is not the only thing that matters but it does matter especially to someone like Tyrion that rejected Penny because she is a dwarf and not his usual beautiful and normal height type of woman

Oh my. No we weren't talking about Tyrion being worried about looks, you said Tyrion should have refused to marry her knowing he is ugly, noseless, & a dwarf. 

When does Tyrion reject Penny on those grounds anyway? 

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

never said that either. Getting humiliated and rejected were not  punishments but consequences of his selfish choice

No, you didn't say punishment, that was my word. I'll rephrase the question then:

Are you proposing that Tyrion's consequence for "marrying a helpless, child bride that he cared nothing for her feelings all for his own selfish reasons of wanting WF" (seems pretty ridiculous laid out all together doesn't it?) Was to be a little embarrassed? That doesn't seem like much of a consequence. 

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

Nope. as I said above, it was a consequence of his selfish choice

Right & according to you his "selfish choice" was what? Marrying her right? & The reason it was selfish, according to you - because he knew he wasn't Sansa's type because he is ugly, noseless, a dwarf, & wanted WF. 

Listen I'm not trying to be rude but you are making false claims & cannot provide one shred of evidence for them, nor did you try with most of what you originally claimed, you just edited it out. 

Maybe you should reread the chapter or read some of the thread & refresh your memory. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

16 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

You didn't ask for that, no more, than I did." Which is not true. He did ask for it more, than she did, since by his own admission: he wants WF and he wants Sansa. 

Wanting something is not the same as asking for it. We know very well he didn't ask for it & his claim that he didn't is true. 

It's the same as someone saying hey take this chocolate & u taking it & saying later I didn't ask for the chocolate. 

You didn't ask for the chocolate whether or not you wanted it. 

19 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

By saying "no more" he puts himself on the same level as her. Communicating to her: I am a victim, just as much as you are.

You are putting things in the text that aren't there though. He says he didn't ask for this anymore than she did & he didn't. Neither of them asked for it. He isn't communicating to her that he is any kind of victim, he is communicating to her that this is not something he set in motion or something that he asked for. 

21 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The same way as he does later, when he says "we must do our duty", it might be his duty towards House Lannister, but it is definitely not her duty, given she forcefully married by a not rightful king and her father, who she actually belongs to was murdered under false claims. 

I'm sorry but you cannot just attribute meanings to things that do not exist. He doesn't say "We must do our duty" he says let's do our duty. It's his duty as a married man & hers as a married woman & that's all that's meant by what is said. Nothing to do with being a victim or trying to make himself one. If he is trying to paint himself as a victim there has to be something indicating that. Him stating the truth - that he didn't ask for it, in an effort to make her aware that this wasn't something he set up or that he put upon her & him saying Let's do our duty - when consummation is repeatedly referred to as the married couples duty is not any means to manipulate her or paint himself in any untrue light. 

26 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Tyrion is playing a role himself in unlawfully marrying her, by initially wanting to consummate.

Well, again it isn't unlawful according to the King of Westeros but "initially wanting to consummate"? That's what they do when they get married. It's what is expected of them, it's what every single married couple in universe does directly after they get married. It wasn't a matter of wanting to or wanting not to, it was a matter of completing the ceremony. 

[Nagini's Neville]

4 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Now I'm not sure if I remember it correctly but didn't Tywin tell Tyrion not to tell Sansa about the impromptu wedding beforehand? That's the only thing I remember (and I could be wrong there) from the books as to why he doesn't. And considering that Tyrion loves going against his daddy, I wonder what made him follow this particular order.

Because if the Tyrells would hear about it from Sansa, before it was officially announced. They could have found a way to sneak her out to marry Willas. But IMO that would have been quite difficult, since given Sansa was the Lannisters' hostage, the Tyrells would have needed permission to take her to Highgarden. And since the Lannisters knew about their plans, they wouldn't have let her go.

So either Tyrion wasn't aware of that or he was to afraid it would get to, that he was the one that told Sansa and consequently the Tyrells and that would have consequences for him.

What is your opinion about that @Lyanna<3Rhaegar ? What was the problem with the Tyrells knowing, if they needed the Lannisters' permission to take Sansa to Highgarden? Tyrion didn't even have to tell her in person. He could have put a letter under her pillow the way LF did.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

What is your opinion about that @Lyanna<3Rhaegar ? What was the problem with the Tyrells knowing, if they needed the Lannisters' permission to take Sansa to Highgarden? Tyrion didn't even have to tell her in person. He could have put a letter under her pillow the way LF did.

The problem with the Tyrell's knowing was that they could have announced their proposed betrothal of Sansa to Willas. The Lannisters could not afford to offend the Tyrell's by then marrying her to a Lannister. The reason they can get away with it right now is that they can claim they didn't know of the Tyrells intentions to marry Sansa to Willas & the Tyrell's can't take offense because they are the ones who didn't tell the Lannisters. The need the Tyrell's very badly at this point. 

[winter daughter]

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The evidence is that the author put the line in the story with nothing to refute it. 

Except the fact that it was said in a Sansa pov and we don't know if he actually meant it. What we do know is that he wanted this marriage because of the reasons I've already mentioned.

5 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You're right, it isn't the marriage he wanted, but he went through with it anyway. It's not the marriage Sansa wanted either, but she went through with it anyway.  

They are not in the same position. One of them is a grown ass adult completely capable of rejecting his father's offer and the other is a helpless 12 year old hostage.

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh my. No we weren't talking about Tyrion being worried about looks, you said Tyrion should have refused to marry her knowing he is ugly, noseless, & a dwarf.  

I meant that looks does matter, Tyrion himself is all about looks so he should have known very well that a young and romantic girl like Sansa is not interested in someone like him that not only is an enemy but also a very ugly one in that matter.

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Are you proposing that Tyrion's consequence for "marrying a helpless, child bride that he cared nothing for her feelings all for his own selfish reasons of wanting WF" (seems pretty ridiculous laid out all together doesn't it?) Was to be a little embarrassed? That doesn't seem like much of a consequence. 

I neve said it was an appropriate consequence just that it was a consequence.

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Gotcha.  

No you didn't unfortunately.

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right & according to you his "selfish choice" was what? Marrying her right? & The reason it was selfish, according to you - because he knew he wasn't Sansa's type because he is ugly, noseless, a dwarf, & wanted WF.  

The reason it was selfish was because she was a helpless child hostage with no desire to marry an ugly, nonseless dwarf like him who was an enemy that wanted to usurpe her ancestral home after his family get rid of her brother.

23 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Listen I'm not trying to be rude but you are making false claims & cannot provide one shred of evidence for them, nor did you try with most of what you originally claimed, you just edited it out.  

Then maybe you should stop being sarcastic if you don't want to be rude. And I don't edit my posts to change my answers I do it to correct my errors because English is not first language and mistakes get on my nerves and when I notice them I want to correct them. And just because you don't agree whith my opinions doesn't mean they are false. we just have different opinions.

34 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe you should reread the chapter or read some of the thread & refresh your memory.  

Thanks for your advice but as I said above just because I have a different opinion doesn't mean I'm wrong.

[Nagini's Neville]

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Wanting something is not the same as asking for it. We know very well he didn't ask for it & his claim that he didn't is true. 

It's the same as someone saying hey take this chocolate & u taking it & saying later I didn't ask for the chocolate. 

Technically you are right. They both technically didn't ask to get married, but adding the no more than you did is ridiculous, since it is a ridiculous idea she would ever ask for a marriage between the two of them. It would have been enough to led her know: I didn't ask for this. No need to add the no more than you did to it. It's an option, that's out of question, so doesn't need any mentioning. 

That he does mention it anyhow implies: see we are in the same boat here: you didn't ask for it, I didn't ask for it.

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You didn't ask for the chocolate whether or not you wanted it. 

IMO it is just a very cleverly chosen verb, because any other verb like "want" or "forced" would have pointed out how different their situations are. 

Don't get me wrong I think it's nice, that he lets her know he was not the initiator of her pain, but it is also ridiculous to add the no more than you did, because her asking to be married to Tyrion is ridiculous of the table scenario, so there was no need to make a direct comparison to her actions here.

Sorry for repeating myself a bit here.

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm sorry but you cannot just attribute meanings to things that do not exist. He doesn't say "We must do our duty" he says let's do our duty. It's his duty as a married man & hers as a married woman & that's all that's meant by what is said. Nothing to do with being a victim or trying to make himself one. If he is trying to paint himself as a victim there has to be something indicating that. Him stating the truth - that he didn't ask for it, in an effort to make her aware that this wasn't something he set up or that he put upon her & him saying Let's do our duty - when consummation is repeatedly referred to as the married couples duty is not any means to manipulate her or paint himself in any untrue light. 

Yes, I was paraphrasing here. but my point was not the "must", but the "our". Okay I take the victim part back. I try to be more precise. Also, I understand that I frustrate you or my opinion does, but I'm not doing it on purpose. I'm not trying to interpret something falsely on purpose. There are others, who share my opinion. So it's not unusual to understand the text the way I do. You yourself had a different understanding of the text as well. So please don't be impatient with me now. If you didn't mean to I apologize for perceiving it that way.

I stand by my opinion however, that it's not her duty, because of reasons I've already given, reasons Tyrion is aware of. Therefore IMO Tyrion is presenting the situation in an untrue light.

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, again it isn't unlawful according to the King of Westeros but "initially wanting to consummate"? That's what they do when they get married. It's what is expected of them, it's what every single married couple in universe does directly after they get married. It wasn't a matter of wanting to or wanting not to, it was a matter of completing the ceremony. 

He is not the rightful king, he is a bastard and Tyrion knows that. And consummating is part of finalizing the marriage.

Joffrey executed Ned = wrong and unlawful; You agree? Otherwise why would Robb start a war.

Joffrey marrying Sansa equally wrong and unlawful. Consummation puts the nail in the coffin, that's why Tywin wants Tyrion to do it right away. Therefore wanting to consummate it is just as wrong as Joffrey marrying Sansa. 

If Sansa knew Joffrey was a bastard she might have protested (maybe not since might have been to afraid to get punished) and told Tyrion, that it is not her duty to consummate, the same way, that is was not her duty to marry.

There is a reason after all, that unconsummated marriages can be annulled.

Quote

The problem with the Tyrell's knowing was that they could have announced their proposed betrothal of Sansa to Willas. The Lannisters could not afford to offend the Tyrell's by then marrying her to a Lannister. The reason they can get away with it right now is that they can claim they didn't know of the Tyrells intentions to marry Sansa to Willas & the Tyrell's can't take offense because they are the ones who didn't tell the Lannisters. The need the Tyrell's very badly at this point. 

I see your point.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

35 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Except the fact that it was said in a Sansa pov and we don't know if he actually meant it. What we do know is that he wanted this marriage because of the reasons I've already mentioned

I guess it can be argued but there really isn't anything to base it on. He says it & there really isn't any reason to think he is lying. 

I don't understand how him stating he wants WF is evidence that he wouldn't have done what he offered. At any rate though he gives other reasons for wanting the marriage also. I don't think it's fair to take half the reasons but not the other half. 

39 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

They are not in the same position. One of them is a grown ass adult completely capable of rejecting his father's offer and the other is a helpless 12 year old hostage.

Certainly, they are different positions but that doesn't take from the fact that he wanted a companion, someone to love, to love him etc. 

41 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

meant that looks does matter, Tyrion himself is all about looks so he should have known very well that a young and romantic girl like Sansa is not interested in someone like him that not only is an enemy but also a very ugly one in that matter

They matter to an extent to everyone & he does know his shortcomings in the looks department, he says as much to Sansa. He does, however, have good attributes. 

Tyrion isn't all about looks. What makes you say so? You said he rejected Penny on those grounds but I don't recall that at all. 

Tyrion did know all of the above but what difference does that make? She was going to be married to a Lannister any which way it went. He knows he isn't handsome so he offers to call it off so she can be married to someone closer to her age & more handsome & she declines.

Marriages between the highborn in a society such as Westeros are not made based on looks. Looks has nothing to do with it most of the time. 

45 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

neve said it was an appropriate consequence just that it was a consequence

Gotcha. 

45 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

The reason it was selfish was because she was a helpless child hostage with no desire to marry an ugly, nonseless dwarf like him who was an enemy that wanted to usurpe her ancestral home after his family get rid of her brother.

This is exactly what I said? 

Quote

Right & according to you his "selfish choice" was what? Marrying her right? & The reason it was selfish, according to you - because he knew he wasn't Sansa's type because he is ugly, noseless, a dwarf, & wanted WF

49 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Then maybe you should stop being sarcastic if you don't want to be rude

Sorry but you keep making claims that are false & when I ask for evidence you ignore it. It can be very frustrating  

49 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

And I don't edit my posts to change my answers I do it to correct my errors because English is not first language and mistakes get on my nerves and when I notice them I want to correct them. 

I didn't even notice you edited anything nor did I comment on it?

50 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

And just because you don't agree whith my opinions doesn't mean they are false. we just have different opinions

Yes, an opinion is one thing & can take many different forms & not be correct or incorrect but when you state things like:

His offering to call off the marriage was a stunt - as a fact with no evidence to back it it isn't a matter of opinion it just isn't true . You can think he may not have went through with it but there is nothing to prove it. 

If he truly cared about her feelings he would have come to her sooner - in light of the fact that he makes it abundantly clear he does care, in numerous instances, & gives a plausible reason for not coming to her sooner - makes this untrue unless there is evidence to the contrary, which as of yet you have not presented. 

That he accepted Tywin's offer because he wanted a pretty wife & a big castle, ignoring the rest of why he says he agreed is disingenous. 

Tyrion is all about looks & rejected Penny on those grounds - I could be remembering incorrectly but if there is indeed no proof for this either then it's another case of a false claim on your part  

58 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Thanks for your advice but as I said above just because I have a different opinion doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Again, I take no issue with any differing of opinion as long as it is based in evidence from the text. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Technically you are right. They both technically didn't ask to get married, but adding the no more than you did is ridiculous, since it is a ridiculous idea she would ever ask for a marriage between the two of them. It would have been enough to led her know: I didn't ask for this. No need to add the no more than you did to it. It's an option, that's out of question, so doesn't need any mentioning. 

That he does mention it anyhow implies: see we are in the same boat here: you didn't ask for it, I didn't ask for it.

IMO it is just a very cleverly chosen verb, because any other verb like "want" or "forced" would have pointed out how different their situations are. 

Don't get me wrong I think it's nice, that he lets her know he was not the initiator of her pain, but it is also ridiculous to add the no more than you did, because her asking to be married to Tyrion is ridiculous of the table scenario, so there was no need to make a direct comparison to her actions here.

Sorry for repeating myself a bit here.

Yes, I was paraphrasing here. but my point was not the "must", but the "our". Okay I take the victim part back. I try to be more precise. Also, I understand that I frustrate you or my opinion does, but I'm not doing it on purpose. I'm not trying to interpret something falsely on purpose. There are others, who share my opinion. So it's not unusual to understand the text that way I do. You yourself had a different understanding of the text as well. So please don't be impatient with me now. If you didn't mean to I apologize for perceiving it that way.

I stand by my opinion however, that it's not her duty, because of reasons I've already given, reasons Tyrion is aware of. Therefore IMO Tyrion is presenting the situation in an untrue light.

He is not the rightful king, he is a bastard and Tyrion knows that. And consummating is part of finalizing the marriage.

Joffrey executed Ned = wrong and unlawful; You agree? Otherwise why would Robb start a war.

Joffrey marrying Sansa equally wrong and unlawful. Consummation puts the nail in the coffin, that's why Tywin wants Tyrion to do it right away. Therefore wanting to consummate it is just as wrong as Joffrey marrying Sansa. 

If Sansa knew Joffrey was a bastard she might have protested (maybe not since might have been to afraid to get punished) and told Tyrion, that it is not her duty to consummate, the same way, that is was not her duty to marry.

There is a reason after all, that unconsummated marriages can be annulled.

I see your point.

I have to run & will reply to the rest later but just wanted to quick tell you I'm sorry if I sounded impatient. I value your opinion & I definitely see where you are coming from, I don't think you are making things up or pulling them out of thin air or anything like that. Gtg ttyl

[winter daughter]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I didn't even notice you edited anything nor did I comment on it?

Sorry I thought by "edited out" you meant editing my comments.

Btw my opinions are based on what I have read many times before but tbh I'm tired and no longer interested in this discussion so I'm not gonna dig up evidence for them and it's fine if you think I'm making false claims. But this is a discussion about what I said regarding Tyrion and Penny that was easy to find lol

 

 

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

41 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Sorry I thought by "edited out" you meant editing my comments.

Btw my opinions are based on what I have read many times before but tbh I'm tired and no longer interested in this discussion so I'm not gonna dig up evidence for them and it's fine if you think I'm making false claims. But this is a discussion about what I said regarding Tyrion and Penny that was easy to find lol

 

 

 

 

A post on Reddit making a similar claim to yours isn't proof. I meant like actual words from the text. 

Nice chatting with ya. 

[winter daughter]

Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

A post on Reddit making a similar claim to yours isn't proof. I meant like actual words from the text.  

I didn't say it was. I just want you to know that I was not the only one reaching to this conclusion.

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Nice chatting with ya. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Technically you are right. They both technically didn't ask to get married, but adding the no more than you did is ridiculous, since it is a ridiculous idea she would ever ask for a marriage between the two of them. It would have been enough to led her know: I didn't ask for this. No need to add the no more than you did to it. It's an option, that's out of question, so doesn't need any mentioning

I get what you're saying but I just don't read it like that. I think he is just using the "no more than you did" to say - I didn't ask for it & I'm acknowledging that I'm aware you didn't ask for it. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That he does mention it anyhow implies: see we are in the same boat here: you didn't ask for it, I didn't ask for it

Maybe, that's just not what I gather from it. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

, I was paraphrasing here. but my point was not the "must", but the "our". Okay I take the victim part back. I try to be more precise. Also, I understand that I frustrate you or my opinion does, but I'm not doing it on purpose. I'm not trying to interpret something falsely on purpose. There are others, who share my opinion. So it's not unusual to understand the text that way I do. You yourself had a different understanding of the text as well. So please don't be impatient with me now. If you didn't mean to I apologize for perceiving it that way

I'm sorry, again. I don't mean to sound impatient & I definitely don't want you to think I believe you are pulling something out of thin air. I should have worded that much differently. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sansa knew Joffrey was a bastard she might have protested (maybe not since might have been to afraid to get punished) and told Tyrion, that it is not her duty to consummate, the same way, that is was not her duty to marry

You certainly have a point here. I never thought of it this way. It could have made Sansa behave completely differently if she understood it wasn't her "duty" 

Tyrion definitely knows & doesn't tell her so I guess the question would be does he not tell her because he knows it will change her behavior? Or because it's his families secret, that, unleashed could bring them all down? 

That's actually not a fair question because we know his main motivation would be to keep his family safe so a better question would be did Tyrion understand that if Sansa had this information it could potentially change her entire outlook on things & thus her behavior? Did he knowingly allow her to continue thinking it was her duty with the purpose of curbing her behavior? 

Very interesting, I need to dwell on that a while. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

I didn't say it was. I just want you to know that I was not the only one reaching to this conclusion.

Oh ok, thanks then. 

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I get what you're saying but I just don't read it like that. I think he is just using the "no more than you did" to say - I didn't ask for it & I'm acknowledging that I'm aware you didn't ask for it. 

Maybe, that's just not what I gather from it. 

I acknowledge, that it's subjective. And I also don't think Tyrion is doing it on purpose. I think it's subconscious. I truly believe he is unhappy about the situation. IMO there are two devils fighting with each other in his heart. The one is his empathy with Sansa, his knowledge about the whole situation and context and the other one is his longing and desire for Sansa (someone like her) and WF and what that represents, IMO this desire is so strong, that it sort of overpowers him at times and his rational thinking. The same way it did with Shae, even though this case was absolutely clear to him as well and IMO it is the same with Sansa. Intellectually he is aware of everything, but his emotions are blind in a way.

So he subconsciously puts himself on the same level than her, because he wants something to connect with her over, totally forgetting the outside circumstances and that that's just in no way possible right now (it could have been possible over a long, long period of time). Sansa doesn't know he is the victim of his family, I think he wants to connect with her over that, but he still works with them, he still benefits from their success, he is still one of them so connection over that so quickly is not possible. He wants "to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust." That already shines through IMO. That what he wants from his dream girl, who might look like Sansa, but isn't her. It has everything to do with him and nothing with her. But this longing is so strong, that it overrides a lot of things. IMO it's not fair to Sansa. He is incapable emotionally to suppress his desire and longing and see her as the person she truly is (hurt, child, lost everything, incapable of falling in love with a dawn right now) and not again and again change her into his object of his desire- fantasy- creature.

[Nagini's Neville]

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm sorry, again. I don't mean to sound impatient & I definitely don't want you to think I believe you are pulling something out of thin air. I should have worded that much differently. 

No worries  I guess I just didn't want you to have the wrong idea. I'm glad you don't. 

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You certainly have a point here. I never thought of it this way. It could have made Sansa behave completely differently if she understood it wasn't her "duty" 

Tyrion definitely knows & doesn't tell her so I guess the question would be does he not tell her because he knows it will change her behavior? Or because it's his families secret, that, unleashed could bring them all down? 

That's actually not a fair question because we know his main motivation would be to keep his family safe so a better question would be did Tyrion understand that if Sansa had this information it could potentially change her entire outlook on things & thus her behavior? Did he knowingly allow her to continue thinking it was her duty with the purpose of curbing her behavior? 

Very interesting, I need to dwell on that a while. 

 

Yeah, he doesn't tell her for the same reasons, he doesn't tell her about the wedding beforehand. Before the wedding he also already knows an unlawful king will give her away, without her knowledge instead of her father. The whole power of the Lannisters "as rulers" is based on that lie.

That knowledge would certainly change things for Sansa. Cersei gives her justifications right away, why Joffrey has the right to marry her off. IMO it plays a big part in why she is so defeated.

" “No,” Sansa blurted. “No.” “Yes. You are a ward of the crown. The king stands in your father’s place, since your brother is an attainted traitor. That means he has every right to dispose of your hand." -that's all a lie

No way Sansa would have just accepted the consummation had she known, that Joffrey is a bastard and had proof/conformation, that her father wasn't a traitor. She is all about duty and everything being rightful and honorable after all. And at this point she is still quite classist. As often mentioned she makes a clear distinction between herself, her Stark siblings and Jon. But Joffrey has the same status as Jon. He is a Lannister bastard (out of incest, which is sinful, if you're not Targaryen) the same as Jon is a Stark bastard. 

"The king was resplendent in crimson and gold, his crown on his head. “I’m your father today,” he announced. “You’re not,” she flared. “You’ll never be.” "

If she knew, there was a way for her to protest even more, I'm sure she'll do it. She goes along with it because she thinks, it's rightful and she doesn't have different choice but to obey them.

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Did he knowingly allow her to continue thinking it was her duty with the purpose of curbing her behavior? 

 

well he says "lets do our duty." 

Tyrion is a smart man, he knows, what they did to her family and what they are doing to her.

[Nagini's Neville]

On 13. Februar 2020 at 6:44 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

@corbon posted most of the exchange so I think it is false to say he gave in surprisingly quickly. As a matter of fact, it took him much longer to give in then it did Sansa.

It's not a fair comparison IMO

On 13. Februar 2020 at 6:44 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Of course the stakes were different for the two of them but my point is how quickly or not someone gave in is no clear indication of who is to blame & who is the victim.

I have read that chapter recently and I agree mostly with NLG's perception here.

Given there was no immediate threat made to Tyrion you can draw conclusions about how quickly he gave in/ he did voice doubts, complains, hesitation, but he never outright refused, the way, when Lollys was brought up shortly :

"Lady Tanda has offered Lollys …” Tyrion gave a shudder of dismay. “I’d sooner cut it off and feed it to the goats.”  If he felt the same way about marrying Sansa, he would have voiced it the same way as well. He is quite rude and sarcastic in this interation, so I don't see, why he wouldn't.

The reason, why he doesn't, Tyrion actually wants WF right from the start of the conversation:

"A wife might be the very thing he needed. If she brought him lands and a keep, it would give him a place in the world apart from Joffrey’s court … and away from Cersei and their father." (here he has already figured out it will be Sansa, it's the next thing he' ll tell his father)

Later in the conversation:

"it was all for his benefit, he knew."

“You shall never have Casterly Rock, I promise you. But wed Sansa Stark, and it is just possible that you might win Winterfell.” Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill."

“You asked me to reward you for your efforts in the battle,” Lord Tywin reminded him forcefully. “This is a chance for you, Tyrion, the best you are ever likely to have.”

This is all pretty cruel, when you consider, that he is aware, than his future wife's brother, who is not dead yet, has to still to die, so that he can get WF. Under those circumstances, how can he ever expect Sansa to ever accept, let alone love him. That's really just impossible IMO. And he shouldn't even attempt. And she is right it wouldn't "work" with any Lannister. And yes his phrase, "I did not ask for this" sounds pretty hypocritical in this context IMO. This is really the only thing Tyrion can say, that doesn't make him look bad, that he didn't actually verbally asked for WF and consequently marriage to her himself.

It makes it even worse, that at the end of the conversation, he is also already aware of what's up with the Westerlings: “Jeyne Westerling is her mother’s daughter,” said Lord Tywin, “and Robb Stark is his father’s son.” This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he’d heard “The Rains of Castamere” echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. “The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere,” Tyrion pointed out. “You’d think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there.” “Mayhaps they have,” Lord Tywin said. “They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you.” “Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?”

 

His main reason, why he hesitates about the marriage, seems to be Shae and that he wants to have sex with someone, who is willing ( he's aware Sansa won't be willing):

-"On the other hand, there was Shae. She will not like this, for all she swears that she is content to be my whore."

-" “She is no more than a child.” “Your sister swears she’s flowered. If so, she is a woman, fit to be wed. You must  needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as her husband.” Shae is all the woman I need just now, he thought, and Sansa’s a girl, no matter what you say." ( another acknowledgment, that Tyrion sees Sansa still as a child and it's another reason he might feel uneasy about the marriage, he takes deliberately opposition to societal conventions here: "no matter what you say" to his credit, but I also think we should, than not just ignore his disagreement with society here, when it comes to his behavior on the wedding night, especially when he brings it up sooo many times)

-"Sansa Stark, he mused. Soft-spoken sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces. He felt as though he was back on the bridge of boats, the deck shifting beneath his feet."

-"Why would you hesitate?” Why indeed? “A quirk of mine. Strange to say, I would prefer a wife who wants me in her bed.” "  (I presume he doesn't want a partner, who would reminds him of his insecurities, since he told Bronn he should warn Shae exactly about who and what he is and she never looked at his with disgust or repulsion, but always mad him feel great about himself ("my giant of Lannister"); but also Tyrion also verbally acknowledges, that Sansa wouldn't want him in her bed)

 

At the wedding night he tells Sansa, "that he wants her." in combination with a physical reaction, that's the first real indication we get from his part, that he wants her as a woman too, despite calling her child and not just Winterfell.

 

Later we get an admission/realization about this in his POV

"I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is."

 

So how I read that chapter, it was mainly WF, that motivated him to get away from his family. And what held him back was not wanting to ruin his relationship with Shae. He thought about, how she wouldn't like it and how she is all the woman he needs, while Sansa is a girl.

He did actually not think so much about Sansa, except, that she has an ideal of how a man should be like, that is  unattainable for him and the thought of that made him sick. (so he mainly thought about, which consequences her ideal would have for himself IMO)

He did tell his father, how it was cruel, because Joffrey tortured her beforehand, but he did not think about that, so I don't think it had anything to do with his hesitation.

His hesitation right from the beginning is mainly, because of Shae, but:

"She will not like this, for all she swears that she is content to be my whore. That was scarcely a point to sway his father, however,"

So Tyrion gives a bunch of other reasons, which aren't however a real concern to him, except maybe, that Sansa is still child in his eyes, which he also thinks about.

the main reason is:

"Why would you hesitate?” Why indeed? “A quirk of mine. Strange to say, I would prefer a wife who wants me in her bed.” " 

Sadly Tyrant-Tywin is right here:

" “If you think your whores want you in their bed, you are an even greater fool than I suspected,” said Lord Tywin."

 

On 13. Februar 2020 at 6:44 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I've never claimed he was a victim. 

 I wasn't sure. To many different opinions. Thanks for the clarification. My apologies.

On 13. Februar 2020 at 6:44 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Certainly & so is Sansa. She knows women are trained to & expected to obey their husbands, thats why she does. I disagree Sansa did anything she could to fight the marriage before hand because she did have the option to say to Tyrion "Yes, call off the wedding, I would rather marry another Lannister."

I correct myself: she did everything she could to fight a marriage to a Lannister. That's what I meant.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, he doesn't tell her for the same reasons, he doesn't tell her about the wedding beforehand. Before the wedding he also already knows an unlawful king will give her away, without her knowledge instead of her father. The whole power of the Lannisters "as rulers" is based on that lie

Yeah absolutely the power they hold is based on a lie but Tyrion, being a Lannister himself, wouldn't expose that lie unless he wanted to bring about the downfall of himself & his house right? 

I would think this would be his number 1 reason for not telling Sansa or anyone else. 

11 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That knowledge would certainly change things for Sansa. Cersei gives her justifications right away, why Joffrey has the right to marry her off. IMO it plays a big part in why she is so defeated

I agree it would have definitely changed things for Sansa, at least in her own mind. She still didn't have much of a choice but to play along with their facade, so she may not have acted any differently outwardly, in that she may not have fought more or yelled louder because it ultimately still wouldn't have gotten her anywhere but it certainly would have changed her mind as far as what her "duty" was & that probably would have changed her behavior during the bedding. 

11 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

No way Sansa would have just accepted the consummation had she known, that Joffrey is a bastard and had proof/conformation, that her father wasn't a traitor. She is all about duty and everything being rightful and honorable after all. And at this point she is still quite classist. As often mentioned she makes a clear distinction between herself, her Stark siblings and Jon. But Joffrey has the same status as Jon. He is a Lannister bastard (out of incest, which is sinful, if you're not Targaryen) the same as Jon is a Stark bastard

Yeah, in her mind she wouldn't have accepted it but her actions prior to the bedding would likely have been much the same I think. She knows she is stuck in a lose-lose situation. She may have spoke up & announced her discovery to the entire court but without proof (because she wouldn't even be able to prove Tyrion said it, let alone that it was actually the truth) it would have had very negative consequences for her. 

During the bedding, however, she wouldn't have felt internally like it was her "duty" because she would know it wasn't truly. That, IMO, is where she may have been more likely to express her negative feelings outwardly. Possibly by being angry, saying as such to Tyrion etc. That may have led to the bedding never being started, let alone get to the point it got to. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

she knew, there was a way for her to protest even more, I'm sure she'll do it. She goes along with it because she thinks, it's rightful and she doesn't have different choice but to obey them

Sorry to keep repeating my self but I don't think she would have still had much choice in marrying him, she would understand though that it was being done deceitfully & who knows maybe she would have protested the wedding more but I do think she would have understood that wrongfully or no, these are the people in power & they mean to force her. I would think more likely Sansa would have went along but knowing that Joff was a bastard would have comforted herself in the fact that because he wasn't Robert's heir, at some point this marriage would be considered null & void on those grounds - she would have to get to a position to be able to alert someone who could do something about it first though, and at that point she was not.

I think where the biggest difference would come in, is during the actual bedding. She would be armed with the knowledge, coming from Tyrion, that this was not truly her duty & possibly would have felt comfortable enough to express that to him when they were alone. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

well he says "lets do our duty." 

Tyrion is a smart man, he knows, what they did to her family and what they are doing to her

He is smart & he does know but I don't think that in & of itself proves his motive behind not telling Sansa is to get her to go along or to be more acquiescent. He does have a much larger reason to not tell her or anyone & while we don't have his POV in the moment to be certain I would think this would be his main motivation for not spilling the beans. 

He never thinks anything like this in any of his POV's either. I suppose it could be a reason on a subconscious level but to me the more likely explanation is that it would cause the downfall of his house if the information was loosed & proved & not proved would only cause there to be negative consequences for himself & Sansa if it were repeated. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It's not a fair comparison IMO

It certainly isn't the same but my point was how quickly or not someone gives in is not directly related to their guilt or blame in the matter. As evidenced by Sansa holding no guilt or blame yet giving in fairly quickly. 

My second point was that I disagree he gave in quickly at all. It's a lengthy exchange between Tyrion & Tywin where Tyrion presents several points of contention - doesn't constitute quickly IMO.

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Given there was no immediate threat made to Tyrion you can draw conclusions about how quickly he gave in/ he did voice doubts, complains, hesitation, but he never outright refused, the way, when Lollys was brought up shortly

There were no immediate threats to Tyrion but I don't see how that relates to the length of time or number of arguments he raises against it. To determine if he gave in quickly, I would measure the length of time &/or the number of arguments he presents against the proposal. Maybe you are measuring differently but I don't come to the conclusion he gave in quickly in my measurements. 

I also wouldn't take into count here that he didn't outright refuse. I would measure from when he is given the proposal to when he agrees to said proposal. Not refusing is also not agreeing, especially in light of the fact that he is presenting arguments against what he is being told to do. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

If he felt the same way about marrying Sansa, he would have voiced it the same way as well. He is quite rude and sarcastic in this interation, so I don't see, why he wouldn't

He certainly doesn't feel the same way about marrying Sansa as he would Lollys - why would he? 

Nor is he meant to, that's why Tywin uses Lollys as a manipulation tool here. It wouldn't work if he felt the same way about both marriages. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The reason, why he doesn't, Tyrion actually wants WF right from the start of the conversation

Not WF particularly & not only that. 

A wife. Particularly one that brought lands & a keep so that he can remove himself from court & get away from Cersei & Tywin. 

At this point Lollys doesn't come with lands & a keep (iirc) & doesn't remove him very far from court either. Not to mention she is pregnant with another man's baby (had that happened yet?) & Is said to be dimwitted. There are tons of reasons for Sansa to be a better marriage prospect that Lollys & that's the whole point of Tywin suggesting her. His point is - you will never have a better opportunity than this. You only other prospect is a dimwitted woman, pregnant with another man's baby (if she was) who does not come with any lands or keep & also is not near the noble birth Sansa is. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

it was all for his benefit, he knew."

It was certainly all a benefit to Tyrion but that wasn't Tywin's main priority or motivation. Having the heir to WF married to a Lannister was of great benefit to Tywin, Cersei & the Lannisters as a whole. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

This is all pretty cruel, when you consider, that he is aware, than his future wife's brother, who is not dead yet, has to still to die, so that he can get WF

It's very odd to me the different things we read when we read the same passage. While I agree the entire thing was unbelievably cruel to Sansa, my first thought after reading that passage was how cruel it was what Tywin said to Tyrion - you will never have CR. He is the rightful heir but Tywin will not accept him because of something completely out of Tyrion's control; he is a dwarf. He has proved himself worthy time & again, yet Tywin continues to deny him & offers in its place a wife with little reason to love or even like him & expects Tyrion to view it as his reward. Taking Sansa to bride isn't bad on the outside of things but the fact that Sansa is likely never going to trust, care for, like, or even be a friend to Tyrion is cruel to Tyrion as well. 

Tyrion doesn't know about the RW but he does know Sansa is Robb's heir & that Robb is in the middle of fighting a war. So no guarantee he will ever even get WF, which is the only reward handed him that isn't tainted. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That's really just impossible IMO. And he shouldn't even attempt. And she is right it wouldn't "work" with any Lannister

Indeed & that's why the reward is tainted. This isn't something Tyrion would look positively on - the fact that Sansa will likely never like him but I don't know why he shouldn't attempt it. He is a bit of a romantic himself & knows he has been kind to Sansa & that generally speaking he is better than the rest of the Lannisters. I don't think he shouldn't hope for the best & make the best out of what he is given. This is, for all it's poisons, the best marriage opportunity he will ever receive. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And yes his phrase, "I did not ask for this" sounds pretty hypocritical in this context IMO. This is really the only thing Tyrion can say, that doesn't make him look bad, that he didn't actually verbally asked for WF and consequently marriage to her himself

I disagree & it isn't the only thing he can say nor is it the only thing he does say. 

He acknowledges she has been drug to her own wedding, letting her know he understands her situation. He tells her if he did not marry her she would be married to another Lannister - letting her know that he did argue against the marriage because of the situation she is in & offers to call it off if she prefers another Lannister. He acknowledges that he isn't handsome & not what a young girl dreams to marry but that he is not Joffrey either - letting her know, I'm not cruel & I won't be cruel to you. 

He could have said much more even, he could have let her know all the arguments he presented against the marriage if his purpose was to use the only words he had to remove the blame from himself or to make himself look better, but he didn't. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

t makes it even worse, that at the end of the conversation, he is also already aware of what's up with the Westerlings

I think that passage shows Tyrion does not know what is up with the Westerlings. He knows Robb married Jeyne & notes that his father doesn't seem as angry as he should over the Westerlings betrayal. We know he isn't angry over it because Sybelle is plotting with Tywin to bring down Robb Stark but Tyrion clearly does not know this. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

His main reason, why he hesitates about the marriage, seems to be Shae and that he wants to have sex with someone, who is willing ( he's aware Sansa won't be willing

Of course, who wouldn't prefer someone coming to their bed willingly rather than out of duty? 

He is aware Sansa would only be coming to his bed out of duty. 

Tywin cuts that idea where it stands though, reminding Tyrion, that whores are coming to his bed for coin, not out of desire or love, they are just better actors. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

another acknowledgment, that Tyrion sees Sansa still as a child and it's another reason he might feel uneasy about the marriage, he takes deliberately opposition to societal conventions here: "no matter what you say" to his credit, but I also think we should, than not just ignore his disagreement with society here, when it comes to his behavior on the wedding night, especially when he brings it up sooo many times

It is indeed a reason he feels uneasy about the marriage, he tells us so & as you said repeats it often. I don't mean to ignore his disagreement to society here but nor do I think it's fair to judge him for acknowledging it but trying to proceed with the bedding anyway. His uneasiness with Sansa being a child wouldn't be along the lines of her being too young to bed or that bedding her would paint him in a negative light - because it wouldn't & she isn't in universe. It has more to do with his presumable preference for someone more his own age, coupled with the fact that her being young makes it more cruel (in his opinion) to marry her off to someone such as his self; a malformed, scarred, noseless, dwarf.

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

presume he doesn't want a partner, who would reminds him of his insecurities, since he told Bronn he should warn Shae exactly about who and what he is and she never looked at his with disgust or repulsion, but always mad him feel great about himself ("my giant of Lannister"); but also Tyrion also verbally acknowledges, that Sansa wouldn't want him in her bed)

Yeah I mean I don't think anyone would want someone that brought up their insecurities right? Especially not in bed but I think Tyrion telling Bronn to tell Shae who & what he is is an effort to prevent embarrassment on both their parts. 

He acknowledges to Sansa directly that he knows he isn't the ideal mate but brings forth his other redeeming qualities in an effort to out weigh his ugliness. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to think another person may look past their looks to see the true person beneath. And if it is unreasonable given the bigger picture then he is hoping beyond hope but he isn't being cruel to Sansa. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So how I read that chapter, it was mainly WF, that motivated him to get away from his family. And what held him back was not wanting to ruin his relationship with Shae. He thought about, how she wouldn't like it and how she is all the woman he needs, while Sansa is a girl

Yeah, not particularly WF but a bride that comes with lands & a keep, certainly that would have been his main positive point. 

His only argument against it is not just Shae though. Shae is one thought but she isn't the only thing that holds him back. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He did actually not think so much about Sansa, except, that she has an ideal of how a man should be like, that is  unattainable for him and the thought of that made him sick. (so he mainly thought about, which consequences her ideal would have for himself IMO

He did think of Sansa when he tells his father it seems especially cruel, even for him, to marry Sansa to the likes of him. He thinks of Sansa when he notes she is a child. He thinks about it being cruel that Joffrey has treated her badly. The fact that he is a dwarf & she a child are really the only harsh aspects of this situation Tyrion has any control over so it's not surprising those are what he thinks about first. The fact that she is being held a hostage & forcibly married is cruel but that isn't anything Tyrion has control over. 

Later he thinks of Sansa, in her own POV, evidenced by his actions. 

Definitely he thought of himself too & likely that was his main priority, that would be the case for anyone I think. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He did tell his father, how it was cruel, because Joffrey tortured her beforehand, but he did not think about that, so I don't think it had anything to do with his hesitation

He could hardly say it without thinking about it though right? It would be very redundant of George to have Tyrion say something & then note him thinking the same thing. It certainly has to do with his hesitation. He names it as such. He says it's cruel because of this. What would be the point in him saying that if it made no difference to him or it had nothing to do with his hesitation? 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So Tyrion gives a bunch of other reasons, which aren't however a real concern to him, except maybe, that Sansa is still child in his eyes, which he also thinks about.

How are you measuring or determining that this argument means everything while all the others he gives mean nothing? Or even that this argument means the most while the others are of no real concern to him? He thinks of them, he speaks of them, the same as he does Shae so I don't see how one can come to the conclusion that this matters more to him than any of the others. 

12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

correct myself: she did everything she could to fight a marriage to a Lannister. That's what I meant

Agreed 

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He certainly doesn't feel the same way about marrying Sansa as he would Lollys - why would he? 

Nor is he meant to, that's why Tywin uses Lollys as a manipulation tool here. It wouldn't work if he felt the same way about both marriages. 

Yeah, tbh because you changed your mind on a lot of issues I actually don't really know, where your standing at right now, since I also haven't read every post of yours to other posters.

I guess argue Tyrion didn't want to be married to Sansa, but you also believe, that he personally wanted to, after in was offered to him or Am I wrong about that? 

And btw. I'm super tired, so my English in these posts will probably suffer a bit -"extra much" might happen again 

I guess my argument here just was, if the thought of marriage to Sansa would have been horrible to him. Tyrion would have said something similar like about the Lollys scenario. That he didn't,shows, despite the outside pressure he liked the idea himself already at least partly during the conversation.

Do you agree?

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

At this point Lollys doesn't come with lands & a keep (iirc) & doesn't remove him very far from court either. Not to mention she is pregnant with another man's baby (had that happened yet?) & Is said to be dimwitted. There are tons of reasons for Sansa to be a better marriage prospect that Lollys & that's the whole point of Tywin suggesting her. His point is - you will never have a better opportunity than this. You only other prospect is a dimwitted woman, pregnant with another man's baby (if she was) who does not come with any lands or keep & also is not near the noble birth Sansa is

Why would that actually be that bad? He is not dimwitted, but also not attractive and comes without lands. But I understand nothing would be gained from this marriage for him. I just find his attitude towards Sansa then hypocritical. Because for Sansa not only doesn't she gain anything from the marriage, but actually looses everything. Why does he still expect her to have a different attitude towards him, than he has towards Lollys.