Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not WF particularly & not only that. 

A wife. Particularly one that brought lands & a keep so that he can remove himself from court & get away from Cersei & Tywin. 

 But when he thinks about a wife, that comes with lands. He already knows, it is Sansa, Tywin wants to marry him to.

"A wife might be the very thing he needed. If she brought him lands and a keep, it would give him a place in the world apart from Joffrey’s court … and away from Cersei and their father. On the other hand, there was Shae. She will not like this, for all she swears that she is content to be my whore. That was scarcely a point to sway his father, however, so Tyrion squirmed higher in his seat and said, “You mean to wed me to Sansa Stark. But won’t the Tyrells take the match as an affront, if they have designs on the girl?” "

And to me it didn't come across like Tyrion wanted Sansa specifically in this conversation (since he only speaks or thinks of her as a child here in comparison to woman Shae). IMO Tyrion is here still very attached to  Shae she is  "all the woman I need just now", so I actually  think he doesn't want to have a wife right now, since things are so good with shae and Tyrion is "accepted" and "loved" by her. To have a wife come in to ruin things between him and Shae and treat his like a demon monkey is nothing he wants, but I do think he wants the lands, power and independence, which is understandable, who wouldn't wanna get away from this family.

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And btw. I'm super tired, so my English in these posts will probably suffer a bit -"extra much" might happen again

Haha! No worries!

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

guess my argument here just was, if the thought of marriage to Sansa would have been horrible to him

 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Tyrion would have said something similar like about the Lollys scenario. That he didn't,shows, despite the outside pressure he liked the idea himself already at least partly during the conversation.

Do you agree?

Yeah I agree. I don't think Tyrion saw the marriage to Sansa as something horrible, I think it's unfortunate that his father & he have convinced himself that no one "worth anything" would ever love him for who he is - because ultimately that's what he wants. He thinks he will never get that but with Sansa he would have the rest of what is considered a good marriage. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Why would that actually be that bad? He is not dimwitted, but also not attractive and comes without lands. But I understand nothing would be gained from this marriage for him. I just find his attitude towards Sansa then hypocritical. Because for Sansa not only doesn't she gain anything from the marriage, but actually looses everything. Why does he still expect her to have a different attitude towards him, than he has towards Lollys

The idea of making a successful marriage match is to make yourself & your house better, more than, richer, have more lands etc. It would be a very poor match for Tyrion to set out to make because he is essentially gaining nothing. As it stands Lollys wouldn't be getting much either from Tyrion so it's a poor match on her part as well. Although, if Tywin needed the match for some reason he could certainly sweeten the pot & make Tyrion more desirable, at least materialistically. 

I don't think he does expect Sansa to have a different attitude toward him as a marriage prospect. He seems to understand very well that he isn't a great prospect & says so to Sansa. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But when he thinks about a wife, that comes with lands. He already knows, it is Sansa, Tywin wants to marry him to

Yes, but he doesn't follow that exchange by thinking: I want Sansa or I want WF. He says a wife with lands & a keep. There is nothing he wants about Sansa specifically at that point, he realizes he wants her as an individual, specifically later. But at this point it would be the same if it were Sansa or any other high born maid that came with lands & a keep to allow him to remove himself far from court. 

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And to me it didn't come across like Tyrion wanted Sansa specifically in this conversation (since he only speaks or thinks of her as a child here in comparison to woman Shae). IMO Tyrion is here still very attached to  Shae she is  "all the woman I need just now",

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Nothing to do with Sansa in particular. 

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

so I actually  think he doesn't want to have a wife right now, since things are so good with shae and Tyrion is "accepted" and "loved" by her. To have a wife come in to ruin things between him and Shae and treat his like a demon monkey is nothing he wants, but I do think he wants the lands, power and independence, which is understandable, who wouldn't wanna get away from this family

Absolutely that's what he wants. He believes no one, let alone Sansa, is going to be able to give him what he truly wants - which is love, a companion etc. He gets this in Shae even though it isn't real, and on some level he knows that but it's easier on his heart to have it falsely then to not have it at all. 

The marriage would be just another thing thrown in the bunch & not a particularly pleasing thing to Tyrion either. 

[Nagini's Neville]

14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

There were no immediate threats to Tyrion but I don't see how that relates to the length of time or number of arguments he raises against it. To determine if he gave in quickly, I would measure the length of time &/or the number of arguments he presents against the proposal. Maybe you are measuring differently but I don't come to the conclusion he gave in quickly in my measurements.

yeah, I didn't wanna make a sciences out of it lol.  What I was ultimately was trying to get at was, that even though there are some negatives about the wedding, that made him feel uneasy he ultimately wants it for reasons we both have mentioned and you can notice that in this conversation. But since we seem to agree there anyway no point in discussing it any further. I also never held it against Tyrion, that he married Sansa. That she had to marry a Lannister is not his doing and he gave her the only choice he could at the only time he could so not to hurt his family and their plans. I also always thought it would have been excellent way for Tyrion to protect Sansa, if they didn't consummate, he still might have found a way to release Sansa and get the marriage annulled, after getting Jaime back and the war had ended.

I only ever had a big problem with how he behaves on their wedding night. Because that is the first moment, that when Tyrion would have behaved differently, things would have been different. That's the moment Tywin has passed the ball Tyrion. If Tyrion would have behaved differently before nothing would have been ultimately different for sansa and he gave her the only choice he could give her. So I agree he treated her as kindly as he possibly could given his duties as Lannister, clearly separating himself from the other Lannisters, except for on the wedding night. And there I hold him personally accountable for his actions. Are there explanations for his behavior? For sure. But IMO there aren't excuses. It's similar to when the Hound threatens to kill Sansa. IMO he is fully himself responsible and to blame for his actions here. I also believe not taking Sansa's age into account from Tyrion's perspective isn't truthful to the situation, since it's Tyrion's own opinion, that Sansa is to young for marriage and therefore for consummation as well and in my opinion, it's one of the main reasons he is hesitant about the marriage, because he thinks, that "Sansa is a girl, no matter what you say" in comparison to Shae's "woman". 

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It was certainly all a benefit to Tyrion but that wasn't Tywin's main priority or motivation. Having the heir to WF married to a Lannister was of great benefit to Tywin, Cersei & the Lannisters as a whole. 

Agreed 

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He did think of Sansa when he tells his father it seems especially cruel, even for him, to marry Sansa to the likes of him. He thinks of Sansa when he notes she is a child. He thinks about it being cruel that Joffrey has treated her badly. The fact that he is a dwarf & she a child are really the only harsh aspects of this situation Tyrion has any control over so it's not surprising those are what he thinks about first. The fact that she is being held a hostage & forcibly married is cruel but that isn't anything Tyrion has control over. 

Later he thinks of Sansa, in her own POV, evidenced by his actions. 

Definitely he thought of himself too & likely that was his main priority, that would be the case for anyone I think. 

 

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He could hardly say it without thinking about it though right? It would be very redundant of George to have Tyrion say something & then note him thinking the same thing. It certainly has to do with his hesitation. He names it as such. He says it's cruel because of this. What would be the point in him saying that if it made no difference to him or it had nothing to do with his hesitation? 

Yes, I guess I was unfair to him here. Your right. I just thought, because he doesn't take those things into account anymore on the wedding night, or at least it doesn't matter enough for him anymore, that it changed his initial intention and actions. But you are right her being a girl and it's being cruel to her are main reasons he is hesitant.

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's very odd to me the different things we read when we read the same passage. While I agree the entire thing was unbelievably cruel to Sansa, my first thought after reading that passage was how cruel it was what Tywin said to Tyrion - you will never have CR. He is the rightful heir but Tywin will not accept him because of something completely out of Tyrion's control; he is a dwarf. He has proved himself worthy time & again, yet Tywin continues to deny him & offers in its place a wife with little reason to love or even like him & expects Tyrion to view it as his reward. Taking Sansa to bride isn't bad on the outside of things but the fact that Sansa is likely never going to trust, care for, like, or even be a friend to Tyrion is cruel to Tyrion as well.

I dont disagree with any of that. Tywin is an absolute monster, that's a given. But I can also see from Tywin's perspective how he views this as a reward, since marriages are not about love at the time, and WF would be a huge reward and he is already planing the Red Wedding so Robb's death is around the corner and from Tywin's perspective Tyrion won't get love anyway in his life. But that's of course not why he wants Tyrion to marry Sansa, it might even pain him, that Tyrion could get anything out of this. 

I just think Tyrion's expectations of Sansa on the wedding night, him being bitter, that she wants nothing to do with him are unjustified. 

[Mystical]

On 2/15/2020 at 5:41 AM, Nagini's Neville said:

That knowledge would certainly change things for Sansa. Cersei gives her justifications right away, why Joffrey has the right to marry her off. IMO it plays a big part in why she is so defeated.

" “No,” Sansa blurted. “No.” “Yes. You are a ward of the crown. The king stands in your father’s place, since your brother is an attainted traitor. That means he has every right to dispose of your hand." -that's all a lie

No way Sansa would have just accepted the consummation had she known, that Joffrey is a bastard and had proof/conformation, that her father wasn't a traitor. She is all about duty and everything being rightful and honorable after all. And at this point she is still quite classist. As often mentioned she makes a clear distinction between herself, her Stark siblings and Jon. But Joffrey has the same status as Jon. He is a Lannister bastard (out of incest, which is sinful, if you're not Targaryen) the same as Jon is a Stark bastard. 

"The king was resplendent in crimson and gold, his crown on his head. “I’m your father today,” he announced. “You’re not,” she flared. “You’ll never be.” "

A little off-topic but wouldn't Joffrey's (and the Lannisters) illegitimacy be grounds for Sansa to annul her marriage to Tyrion? On the grounds of non-consummation doesn't seem to be enough (especially if she loses her hymen in some way) and probably requires both to agree (and Tyrion is a spiteful person these days so fat chance). So wouldn't Joffrey's illegitimacy be the ground on which to annul the marriage then? Because I don't see any other way. Unless Tysha pops up randomly and her marriage to Tyrion was never annulled (again fat chance).

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Mystical said:

A little off-topic but wouldn't Joffrey's (and the Lannisters) illegitimacy be grounds for Sansa to annul her marriage to Tyrion? On the grounds of non-consummation doesn't seem to be enough (especially if she loses her hymen in some way) and probably requires both to agree (and Tyrion is a spiteful person these days so fat chance). So wouldn't Joffrey's illegitimacy be the ground on which to annul the marriage then? Because I don't see any other way. Unless Tysha pops up randomly and her marriage to Tyrion was never annulled (again fat chance).

I don't know. I'm really not an expert, when it comes to those things. But could very well be. A bastard giving away a noble girl in marriage was for sure unlawful, that much I know.

[sweetsunray]

On 2/9/2020 at 11:48 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

For the Un-Sexual assault?

Omg if this is true, things really are getting out of hand lol

Nobody will take poor Sansa seriously anymore.

There are a couple of differences however: Sansa doesn't tell us in the moment, that Sandor kissed her, but afterwards. And also GRRM lets us know about it. IMO it would be very unlike GRRM to not give us at least some clues, if something else happened. Otherwise we could just suspect totally different things happening all the time.

This... Sansa's POV is accurate at the time events happen. It's only over time that her memory of it alters.

We know from Sansa's own POV at the time that Sandor did not kiss her. The un-kiss was invented later on. Same thing with the Trident incident between Joffrey and Arya. In it, Sansa perceives correctly that Mycah never threatened Joffrey whatsoever, but that Joffrey forced Mycah to pick up a stick and defend himself against real steel. Long afterwards however she defends Sandor for killing Mycah, because Mycah threatened Joffrey. So, Sansa's POV is reliable at the time the events occur. Her memory of it afterwards is unreliable.

[Nagini's Neville]

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

This... Sansa's POV is accurate at the time events happen. It's only over time that her memory of it alters.

We know from Sansa's own POV at the time that Sandor did not kiss her. The un-kiss was invented later on. Same thing with the Trident incident between Joffrey and Arya. In it, Sansa perceives correctly that Mycah never threatened Joffrey whatsoever, but that Joffrey forced Mycah to pick up a stick and defend himself against real steel. Long afterwards however she defends Sandor for killing Mycah, because Mycah threatened Joffrey. So, Sansa's POV is reliable at the time the events occur. Her memory of it afterwards is unreliable.

It's quite clear actually, but still gets discussed a lot.

[Nagini's Neville]

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Indeed & that's why the reward is tainted. This isn't something Tyrion would look positively on - the fact that Sansa will likely never like him but I don't know why he shouldn't attempt it. He is a bit of a romantic himself & knows he has been kind to Sansa & that generally speaking he is better than the rest of the Lannisters. I don't think he shouldn't hope for the best & make the best out of what he is given. This is, for all it's poisons, the best marriage opportunity he will ever receive. 

but he still agrees to it. So he must take it with all it's poison IMO. I guess, that it's just me, that it annoys me how much pities himself during their marriage, even though IMO he really couldn't have expected anything differently. On the contrary sansa could have yelled at him and could have been mad and hurtful, but she still always stays polite. That's the best he could have expected, after such a short period of time. So it just annoys me that he doesn't see that. But I can see your point.

 

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It is indeed a reason he feels uneasy about the marriage, he tells us so & as you said repeats it often. I don't mean to ignore his disagreement to society here but nor do I think it's fair to judge him for acknowledging it but trying to proceed with the bedding anyway. His uneasiness with Sansa being a child wouldn't be along the lines of her being too young to bed or that bedding her would paint him in a negative light - because it wouldn't & she isn't in universe.

It's perverse to me, but I see your point

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It has more to do with his presumable preference for someone more his own age, coupled with the fact that her being young makes it more cruel (in his opinion) to marry her off to someone such as his self; a malformed, scarred, noseless, dwarf.

I don't know, if I completely agree however, because he says: "You are a child, but I want you." Again, when it comes to how society sees her, I agree. But I don't think for Tyrion seeing her as a child is disconnected from the bedding. A child is someone in their world you wouldn't bed, so IMO it means something, that he repeatedly calls her that. And than add, but I want you. for me that sounds like, despite me perceiving you as a child, I want you sexually.

And they have the "child talk" specifically on their wedding night. Is a hint that it definitely does matter to him in this regard, psychologically.

IMO from how she acts to telling him she is frightened it's plain she doesn't want to sleep with him (plain to Tyrion as well) and that she is merely doing her duty, but since Tyrion knows this isn't her duty and he also knows she doesn't know it's not her duty, IMO it's horrible of him to take advantage of the situation.

“How old are you, Sansa?” asked Tyrion, after a moment. “Thirteen,” she said, “when the moon turns.” IMO he asks for a reason for her age on the wedding night, before getting undressed.

“Gods have mercy.” The dwarf took another swallow of wine. “Well, talk won’t make you older. Shall we get on with this, my lady? If it please you?” “It will please me to please my lord husband.” she tells him here she is only doing her duty, which is obeying her husband, it pleases her to do her duty basically That seemed to anger him. “You hide behind courtesy as if it were a castle wall.” actually what he wants her to do here is outright tell him, "I don't want to sleep with you, but I have to because it's my duty." But she actually already did that, she just left out the first part. Or maybe he just wants to find a connection with her I dunno “Courtesy is a lady’s armor,” Sansa said. Her septa had always told her that. “I am your husband. You can take off your armor now.” “And my clothing?” he doesn't wait until she has taken off her Lady's armor before he answers “That too.” All he knows she is doing it right now out of duty because, that's what she has told him, but she just refuses to speak about herself personally He waved his wine cup at her. “My lord father has commanded me to consummate this marriage.” Her hands trembled as she began fumbling at her clothes. She had ten thumbs instead of fingers, and all of them were broken. Yet somehow she managed the laces and buttons, and her cloak and gown and girdle and undersilk slid to the floor, until finally she was stepping out of her smallclothes. Gooseprickles covered her arms and legs. She kept her eyes on the floor, too shy to look at him, but when she was done she glanced up and found him staring. he looks at her naked There was hunger in his green eye, it seemed to her, and fury in the black. Sansa did not know which scared her more. and  “You’re a child,” he said. and calls her a child She covered her breasts with her hands. “I’ve flowered.” she reminds him of her status in society  “A child,” but he disagrees he repeated, “but I want you. for me that implies I see you as a child and children, should not be wanted, but I do Does that frighten you, Sansa?” And do you have a problem with that? “Yes.” Yeah, she kinda does. Not with the child part, because she doesn't get that. But it frightens her to be wanted in a sexual way. Here she gets rid of her courtesy armor the fist time, doing, what he wanted her to. Now he has a personal opinion of hers, but it doesn't change anything. That's what is so upsetting to me. Especially with him knowing she is only doing all of this for a false reason, out of false duty.

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah I mean I don't think anyone would want someone that brought up their insecurities right? Especially not in bed but I think Tyrion telling Bronn to tell Shae who & what he is is an effort to prevent embarrassment on both their parts. 

I just don't think he cares for the embarrassment of a whore, he hasn't even met yet. But that's just my personal opinion of course.

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He acknowledges to Sansa directly that he knows he isn't the ideal mate but brings forth his other redeeming qualities in an effort to out weigh his ugliness. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to think another person may look past their looks to see the true person beneath. And if it is unreasonable given the bigger picture then he is hoping beyond hope but he isn't being cruel to Sansa.

It's not unreasonable in general (actually great), but in this situation it is, as you say, it's hope beyond hope in the given situation and unfair to hope for a positive response form her side at the given time and situation and then being bitter about it, while he on the other side prepares to take her body unlawfully also knowing she is afraid and it's not what she personally wants

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

How are you measuring or determining that this argument means everything while all the others he gives mean nothing? Or even that this argument means the most while the others are of no real concern to him? He thinks of them, he speaks of them, the same as he does Shae so I don't see how one can come to the conclusion that this matters more to him than any of the others. 

 

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He could hardly say it without thinking about it though right? It would be very redundant of George to have Tyrion say something & then note him thinking the same thing. It certainly has to do with his hesitation. He names it as such. He says it's cruel because of this. What would be the point in him saying that if it made no difference to him or it had nothing to do with his hesitation?

Yeah, I guess that's, where I was mean lol. I see your point. And I do think he also thinks about Sansa and how it's cruel to her and how she is also so young. I do think he has empathy for her. But IMO he mainly (not only, but mainly) thinks about what consequences, that would have for himself to have a very young wife, who doesn't want him and had been treated so curly for such a long time before, otherwise, if his empathy for her was greater, I just can't explain to me why he didn't behave differently on their wedding night.

[sweetsunray]

On 2/10/2020 at 6:16 AM, Nagini's Neville said:

Girls weren't married normally at 12 in the Middle Ages though and if they were, it wasn't consummated right away, because getting such a young girl pregnant is not healthy and dangerous for mother and child and given the high number of childbed deaths girls were for the most part quite a bit older, when the got married for that reason and they also hit puberty on average two years later.

I also never got the impression, that it was normal to get married and have the marriage be consummated at 12 in Westeros. The only other person, who does that is Ramsey, if I recall correctly. 

^this. It isn't normal in Westeros to wed girls that young (or younger) to a grown man, let alone have it consummated. The Lannisters seem to be fond of this tactic, especially Tywin, but Tywin isn't the norm of Westerosi society. The man is ruthless and machiavellan beyond the immoral and normal, on every level in his society. The reason why he wins so effectively is because he dares to do things that everyone else would be appalled at doing to anyone, except for the monsters. 

Normally betrothals may take place around this age, but either the marriage is postponed or the bedding is symbolic only, as we see Cersei insist on there being people with Margaery and Tommen.

[Nagini's Neville]

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

^this. It isn't normal in Westeros to wed girls that young (or younger) to a grown man, let alone have it consummated. The Lannisters seem to be fond of this tactic, especially Tywin, but Tywin isn't the norm of Westerosi society. The man is ruthless and machiavellan beyond the immoral and normal, on every level in his society. The reason why he wins so effectively is because he dares to do things that everyone else would be appalled at doing to anyone, except for the monsters. 

Normally betrothals may take place around this age, but either the marriage is postponed or the bedding is symbolic only, as we see Cersei insist on there being people with Margaery and Tommen.

That's what I've been saying. But most ppl in the tread have a different opinion. 

Especially because we only see two marriages that young to older men and both were arranged by Tywin. We have Dany, but even Viserys asks, whether the Khal will like such a young woman. And is without scruple as well. Other than that every girl is at least 15 at her wedding. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah, I didn't wanna make a sciences out of it lol

Haha! Sorry!

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

What I was ultimately was trying to get at was, that even though there are some negatives about the wedding, that made him feel uneasy he ultimately wants it for reasons we both have mentioned and you can notice that in this conversation. But since we seem to agree there anyway no point in discussing it any further.

Yep I agree

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That she had to marry a Lannister is not his doing and he gave her the only choice he could at the only time he could so not to hurt his family and their plans. I also always thought it would have been excellent way for Tyrion to protect Sansa, if they didn't consummate, he still might have found a way to release Sansa and get the marriage annulled, after getting Jaime back and the war had ended

Oh me too. It was a big let down that wasn't what happened. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

that when Tyrion would have behaved differently, things would have been different. That's the moment Tywin has passed the ball Tyrion. If Tyrion would have behaved differently before nothing would have been ultimately different for sansa and he gave her the only choice he could give her. So I agree he treated her as kindly as he possibly could given his duties as Lannister, clearly separating himself from the other Lannisters, except for on the wedding night. And there I hold him personally accountable for his actions. Are there explanations for his behavior? For sure. But IMO there aren't excuses. It's similar to when the Hound threatens to kill Sansa. IMO he is fully himself responsible and to blame for his actions here. I also believe not taking Sansa's age into account from Tyrion's perspective isn't truthful to the situation, since it's Tyrion's own opinion, that Sansa is to young for marriage and therefore for consummation as well and in my opinion, it's one of the main reasons he is hesitant about the marriage, because he thinks, that "Sansa is a girl, no matter what you say" in comparison to Shae's "woman

Yeah things certainly could have been different if he had decided to fake the consummation from the beginning or something like that. 

Sure, he is responsible for his actions 100%. I think we mostly agree honestly. Where we differ some is that while I agree the entire thing, including the bedding are terrible for Sansa & I also agree Tyrion is responsible for his own actions, I understand why his actions were what they were & don't think there was anything malicious intended on his part. 

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

just think Tyrion's expectations of Sansa on the wedding night, him being bitter, that she wants nothing to do with him are unjustified

Yeah, I mean it's certainly understandable that Sansa doesn't want him but I also understand why that would hurt Tyrion. 

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That's what I've been saying. But most ppl in the tread have a different opinion. 

Especially because we only see two marriages that young to older men and both were arranged by Tywin. We have Dany, but even Viserys asks, whether the Khal will like such a young woman. And is without scruple as well. Other than that every girl is at least 15 at her wedding. 

Yes, and the Targaryen child brides aren't representative of Westerosi norm either, just the warped Targ "exceptionalism". We have one family who believe they're above the law, god-like and wed brother to sister, at young ages if they must for machiavellan power reasons, and then another family with characters also believing they are above any moral or law. George doesn't write these situations to say "this is normal in Westerosi society". On the contrary, he's showing how the hunger for power and keeping power has these people behave immoral and just be plain abusive of everyone.

Tyrion is introduced to us as a sympathetic guy initially, though with a penchant for being petty to people who have done him no wrong. In aCoK he tries to be the "good Lannister", but he cooperates and aids and abets in something he knows is wrong on so many levels. Some argue it's because family trumps everyone else, but Tyrion does not just do it "for family" (hell he hates Cersei and Joffrey), but because he wants and enjoys the power he has. Ultimately he's like Kevan and what Varys condemns him for. He starts with promising he will bring justice back, sends Janos Slynt to the Wall for the murder of the bastards, but despite knowing Cersei is behind it he doesn't do anything, except poison her once to keep her abed. He knows Joffrey is not Robert's son and a despiccable king, makes promises to Sansa he will get her back to her family, yadiyada, but when Robb starts negotiations, he sends men with his cousin to rescue Jaime out of Riverrun. Finally he's told he'll wed Sansa, but if he won't then Lancel will be wed to her. He only talks of not marrying Sansa, until Lancel will be the alternative. A Lannister is going to be Sansa's husband and would get Winterfell, come high or low, so suddenly he will marry her. He knows this for weeks and never ever tells Sansa and allows his family to spring this on her on the day of the marriage. He then resents her for not kneeling and such. And then we have the wedding night.

Tyrion's tale is that of the man who's not necessarily evil, promises to do right, but every step of the way, always chooses the selfish choice. He was intent on raping her, and did molest her, and he didn't. I do think his better half eventually did win out here, at least at the time, but not because it was 'the right thing to do'. I think he entered in a new type of fantasy - that in time he could make Sansa love him, and he knew that would only happen if he was at his best behaviour with her. And this can be inferred, because he resents Sansa for not starting to love him and for running away during the Purple Wedding. So, Tyrion in the end of the wedding didn't choose to do the right thing, because it was the right thing, but as a tactic he hoped would pay off. But doing the right thing, isn't a "strategy to get what you want". You do it, exactly because it is the right thing and that itself is the reward.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

This... Sansa's POV is accurate at the time events happen. It's only over time that her memory of it alters.

We know from Sansa's own POV at the time that Sandor did not kiss her. The un-kiss was invented later on. Same thing with the Trident incident between Joffrey and Arya. In it, Sansa perceives correctly that Mycah never threatened Joffrey whatsoever, but that Joffrey forced Mycah to pick up a stick and defend himself against real steel. Long afterwards however she defends Sandor for killing Mycah, because Mycah threatened Joffrey. So, Sansa's POV is reliable at the time the events occur. Her memory of it afterwards is unreliable.

Yeah, for my part when we discussed this earlier in the thread it was half-heartedly & grasping at straws. It wasn't anything I seriously considered. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It's quite clear actually, but still gets discussed a lot

I hadn't seen it discussed before it was brought up briefly in this thread, but it wouldn't surprise me if it had been discussed a lot. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

but he still agrees to it. So he must take it with all it's poison IMO. I guess, that it's just me, that it annoys me how much pities himself during their marriage, even though IMO he really couldn't have expected anything differently. On the contrary sansa could have yelled at him and could have been mad and hurtful, but she still always stays polite. That's the best he could have expected, after such a short period of time. So it just annoys me that he doesn't see that. But I can see your point

Yeah he agrees & takes it with it's poisons because it's still the best he will ever get. He has his own defense mechanisms just like anyone else. I'm sure it's pretty hard to accept in full the total reality of the situation. Also, he is likely thinking more of himself than he is of Sansa thus the self-pity.

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It's perverse to me, but I see your point

Oh, it's perverse to me also. It's very perverse, especially with my modern day mindset but if you put it in universe it's never looked at as such. I don't recall a single instance of anyone calling anyone else out because their bride is too young. If she is flowered she is old enough according to them. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

don't know, if I completely agree however, because he says: "You are a child, but I want you." Again, when it comes to how society sees her, I agree. But I don't think for Tyrion seeing her as a child is disconnected from the bedding. A child is someone in their world you wouldn't bed, so IMO it means something, that he repeatedly calls her that. And than add, but I want you. for me that sounds like, despite me perceiving you as a child, I want you sexually.

Yeah, it's definitely not completely disconnected from the bedding but initially we were talking about him telling Tywin she is a child & it's cruel etc. 

Here I think it falls in line with what Corbon said earlier. He knows she is a child mentally, he has acknowledged that from the beginning. Then, seeing her naked he realizes child or not she is sexually attractive, has a womanly body. I don't think he was prepared to view her like that, he expected to continue to see her as a child both physically & mentally. Upon seeing her body he realizes, she is a child mentally but physically, I want her - in contrast to earlier when he thought he only needed Shae, she's a woman. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And they have the "child talk" specifically on their wedding night. Is a hint that it definitely does matter to him in this regard, psychologically

Oh, I'm sure it does. Regardless of how much her body may turn him on, he knows she is mentally a child. Apparently other people in universe (at least some) don't care so much about what the woman is mentally as long as physically they are considered a woman (flowered)

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

IMO from how she acts to telling him she is frightened it's plain she doesn't want to sleep with him (plain to Tyrion as well) and that she is merely doing her duty, but since Tyrion knows this isn't her duty and he also knows she doesn't know it's not her duty, IMO it's horrible of him to take advantage of the situation

So I agree he knows she is only doing her "duty" & I understand what you mean by saying Tyrion knows this isn't truly her duty but I don't think it's that clear cut in Tyrion's mind. He understands his sister has been sleeping with his brother & that there is at least a possibility that Joff is not Robert's heir (I can't remember if Cersei told him or if he knows for sure or not) but Joff sits the throne, is named King, & is ruling with Cersei as regent. The Lannisters have effectively ursurped the throne from Robert Baratheon in every way that matters. Not wholly unlike Robert taking the throne from the Targaryens. Robert did it by force & Cersei by deceit but they are ruling. 

My point being is that I just don't think Tyrion would view things like this. I don't think he would think that because Joff is Jaime & Cersei's & not Robert's that he is an unlawful King who has given an unlawful order. There are likely Targ supporters that insisted until the day Robert died that he was an unlawful King giving unlawful orders but it didn't lessen the power behind his command or change the fact that, unlawfully or no, he was sitting the throne & ruling as King, just like Joff. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

actually what he wants her to do here is outright tell him, "I don't want to sleep with you, but I have to because it's my duty." But she actually already did that, she just left out the first part. Or maybe he just wants to find a connection with her I dunno

I disagree here. I think he is fishing for her true feelings on the matter but all she will give him is that she is willing to do her duty. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

he doesn't wait until she has taken off her Lady's armor before he answers “That too.” All he knows she is doing it right now out of duty because, that's what she has told him, but she just refuses to speak about herself personally 

Yeah but we need to remember this is the 3rd time she has asked if she should take her clothes off. To me, without Sansa's inner thoughts (which Tyrion doesn't have) this would read very much like someone who isn't particularly pleased with being married to him, who is willing to do her duty, & who wants to get on with it & get it over with. Because it's Tyrion's duty as well he is proceeding. Sansa is much more appealing physically & that certainly makes things easier for Tyrion (among other reasons it's easier for Tyrion) but he doesn't really want someone to sleep with him out of duty either. 

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, she kinda does. Not with the child part, because she doesn't get that. But it frightens her to be wanted in a sexual way. Here she gets rid of her courtesy armor the fist time, doing, what he wanted her to. Now he has a personal opinion of hers, but it doesn't change anything. That's what is so upsetting to me. Especially with him knowing she is only doing all of this for a false reason, out of false duty

Yeah, he should have & could have been much more attentive to her being afraid. He is kind of self-centered. I think he thinks because he is afraid too that her being afraid is similar to his being afraid & that isn't the case. Had he thought more about her & her feelings here he would have realized that. 

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

just don't think he cares for the embarrassment of a whore, he hasn't even met yet. But that's just my personal opinion of course

Not truly, no. It's more a matter of if she doesn't know who/what he is & walks in & sees him & gets embarrassed, expresses shock with facial expressions &/or words it is going to hurt his feelings - so really he is doing it to protect himself from her embarrassment. 

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It's not unreasonable in general (actually great), but in this situation it is, as you say, it's hope beyond hope in the given situation and unfair to hope for a positive response form her side at the given time and situation and then being bitter about it, while he on the other side prepares to take her body unlawfully also knowing she is afraid and it's not what she personally wants

Well we disagree on the unlawfully part but yeah he is probably hoping where there is little to hope for. Maybe not beyond hope though, you stated yourself that if Tyrion had gone about things differently on the wedding night Sansa may have come to at least care for him, respect him, trust him, even if she never loved him.

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, I guess that's, where I was mean lol. I see your point. And I do think he also thinks about Sansa and how it's cruel to her and how she is also so young. I do think he has empathy for her

I think almost the opposite here. He seems to have sympathy for her but not much empathy. He certainly cannot even begin to put himself in her shoes, nor does he try. Like he tries to sympathize with the situation she is in but it doesn't go to the level that he tries to understand how she must truly feel or try to imagine how he would feel in the same situation.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

5 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, he is responsible for his actions 100%. I think we mostly agree honestly. Where we differ some is that while I agree the entire thing, including the bedding are terrible for Sansa & I also agree Tyrion is responsible for his own actions, I understand why his actions were what they were & don't think there was anything malicious intended on his part. 

yeah, maybe I've been a bit too extreme in my expression of how I feel about it, that mostly happens when ppl completely speak Tyrion free from responsibility in this situation. When I say it's cruel, I don't think Tyrion wants to be intentionally cruel to Sansa or hurt her in any way. But IMO he also fails to empathize with her in the situation properly. His own desire for love acceptance and sexaul fulfillment with a wife and maybe doing his job as a Lannister come before his empathy for her in the situation. I just don't know how I could read the text any other way. And in some ways that's just cruel to be putting your own needs and desires over the needs of such a young, helpless and abuse person. But I'm completely fine with disagreeing  

Quote

Yeah, I mean it's certainly understandable that Sansa doesn't want him but I also understand why that would hurt Tyrion. 

But "hurt" IMO has a lot to do with expectations. He didn't have to put himself in the position to be hurt by her rejection. He for example also makes sure to not be hurt by Shae, when telling Bronn he should warn her.

IMO it is ridiculous to be hurt by a young abused child bride, when being aware of her situation and of her not wanting him from the beginning ergo there being plenty of reasons for her rejection. To me it seems just incredibly self-centerd. He is not the only one in the world, who is suffering.

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

^this. It isn't normal in Westeros to wed girls that young (or younger) to a grown man, let alone have it consummated. The Lannisters seem to be fond of this tactic, especially Tywin, but Tywin isn't the norm of Westerosi society. The man is ruthless and machiavellan beyond the immoral and normal, on every level in his society. The reason why he wins so effectively is because he dares to do things that everyone else would be appalled at doing to anyone, except for the monsters. 

Normally betrothals may take place around this age, but either the marriage is postponed or the bedding is symbolic only, as we see Cersei insist on there being people with Margaery and Tommen.

I agree irt to Tywins character & have & do agree 12 going on 13 is probably on the young side of acceptable but we do have other examples of such that don't have anything to do with Tywin (Rhaella I think was mentioned along with some others) I'll try to look later today to see how often this happens but we don't hear any one saying anything against it, other than Tyrion himself that I recall. 

Sansa was actually originally betrothed at 11 so it may not happen often (I'm not sure) but it certainly happens. 

Tommen is 9 when he marries Margaery & presumably unable to produce a child, so this would be the equivalent of an pre- flowered girl being married & isn't comparable IMO. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah, maybe I've been a bit too extreme in my expression of how I feel about it, that mostly happens when ppl completely speak Tyrion free from responsibility in this situation. When I say it's cruel, I don't think Tyrion wants to be intentionally cruel to Sansa or hurt her in any way. But IMO he also fails to empathize with her in the situation properly. His own desire for love acceptance and sexaul fulfillment with a wife and maybe doing his job as a Lannister come before his empathy for her in the situation. I just don't know how I could read the text any other way. And in some ways that's just cruel to be putting your own needs and desires over the needs of such a young, helpless and abuse person. But I'm completely fine with disagreeing

Yeah I agree mostly. The only place I would differ is in that it is definitely selfish & self-centered to put your own needs above a helpless abuse victim but to me "cruel" implies there is some intent to harm the person & I don't think he had that. 

12 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But "hurt" IMO has a lot to do with expectations. He didn't have to put himself in the position to be hurt by her rejection. He for example also makes sure to not be hurt by Shae, when telling Bronn he should warn her.

Oh absolutely. It's not Sansa's fault he is hurt by this in the slightest. He set himself up for failure here. It's a pattern of his in a way. He does take care to avoid being hurt by Shae initially but then later allows him self to entertain the idea that Shae isn't just his "whore" & that she may actually care for him, effectively setting himself up to be hurt again.

[sweetsunray]

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree irt to Tywins character & have & do agree 12 going on 13 is probably on the young side of acceptable but we do have other examples of such that don't have anything to do with Tywin (Rhaella I think was mentioned along with some others) I'll try to look later today to see how often this happens but we don't hear any one saying anything against it, other than Tyrion himself that I recall. 

Rhaella is a Targ, and I don't consider what Targs do the norm. Rhaella was also unwilling but forced to wed her brother by her father and raped by her brother. Aegon V didn't like it, but he went along with it. Poor Rhaella.

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sansa was actually originally betrothed at 11 so it may not happen often (I'm not sure) but it certainly happens. 

Tommen is 9 when he marries Margaery & presumably unable to produce a child, so this would be the equivalent of an pre- flowered girl being married & isn't comparable IMO. 

Bethrothals may be arranged in Westerosi society even when both parties are children. But the marriage tends to be delayed until the daughter is 15-16.

Arianne - Viserys

Cat - Brandon

Lysa - Jaime

etc...

The child marriages are far more dubious. Even Westerosi law calls a marriage without consent by the marriage partners unlawful, and it requires an adult to give consent. In fact, this is exactly the legal pretext that Tywin used to have Tyrion's marriage to Tysha annulled - a septon wed two thirteen year olds, and Tyrion was a minor (not yet 16). The loophole that some of the nobility seem to rely on is that a girl who has flowered suddenly can be regarded as an adult, but as Tyrion's own opinion makes clear - such girls are still a "child". It's a rationalisation to make sure a girl who might become sexually active is wed off before being deflowered. But even in these cases, the consummation tends delayed with only a symbolical bedding ceremony. A very small portion of nobility, those with machiavellan and mercenary attitudes, have the groom rape this child to make it a fait accompli. What we see here are some using exceptionalism by changing goalposts of when a girl is a legal adult, and rape to make a marriage stand that is by law unlawfal, when it is worth their while. Those same people use the same law to annul a marriage they don't want to happen. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Rhaella is a Targ, and I don't consider what Targs do the norm. Rhaella was also unwilling but forced to wed her brother by her father and raped by her brother. Aegon V didn't like it, but he went along with it. Poor Rhaella.

Bethrothals may be arranged in Westerosi society even when both parties are children. But the marriage tends to be delayed until the daughter is 15-16.

Arianne - Viserys

Cat - Brandon

Lysa - Jaime

etc...

The child marriages are far more dubious. Even Westerosi law calls a marriage without consent by the marriage partners unlawful, and it requires an adult to give consent. In fact, this is exactly the legal pretext that Tywin used to have Tyrion's marriage to Tysha annulled - a septon wed two thirteen year olds, and Tyrion was a minor (not yet 16). The loophole that some of the nobility seem to rely on is that a girl who has flowered suddenly can be regarded as an adult, but as Tyrion's own opinion makes clear - such girls are still a "child". It's a rationalisation to make sure a girl who might become sexually active is wed off before being deflowered. But even in these cases, the consummation tends delayed with only a symbolical bedding ceremony. A very small portion of nobility, those with machiavellan and mercenary attitudes, have the groom rape this child to make it a fait accompli. What we see here are some using exceptionalism by changing goalposts of when a girl is a legal adult, and rape to make a marriage stand that is by law unlawfal, when it is worth their while. Those same people use the same law to annul a marriage they don't want to happen. 

I'm in agreement that it is not the norm. I said it seems to be on the young side of acceptable. I went through the Stark lineage in aWoIaF & looked up the ages at which these women were married, there's very little information on most of them but of note:

Gilliane Glover born approx 96 A.C. died approx 109 A.C. (at 13) and gave birth to 2 sons before that so had to be married at approximately 11-12 years old depending on when exactly she was born.

Marna Locke born approximately 236 A.C. with the birth of her first child approximately 249 A.C. at age 13 so presumably married at approximately 12 years old. 

This is only two examples but it was only out of 4 that I could find any info on in the Stark Lineage (barring Catelyn) so I just don't think we can say it's outside of acceptable. 

I would be interested in reading where it says being married requires the consent of an adult party to the marriage if thats what you mean. I'm under the impression that the adult giving consent would be the father or guardian of the person being married, since Tywin didn't give his for Tyrion, the marriage was able to be removed. 

I don't disagree that the marriage & consummation practices are horrific & barbaric, what I disagree with is that only the Targ's & Tywin do it. I believe there is precedence set for a girl who is flowered, regardless of her age, to be married & that marriage to be consummated. It certainly doesn't seem to be illegal by westerosi standards & law.