Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I didn't know that myself, but have seen many ppl among those some historians mention it. I think @Lord Varys was the first one to tell me, that death in childbed is depicted as even more frequent, than it actually happened in the MA. But yes the MA is a long time period.

Just to be clear: My point was that when you casually check the royal women of France and England then very few mothers died in childbirth - whereas up until the 19th century and modern medicine child mortality was insanely high.

George basically has far too many noble and royal mothers die in childbirth while having far too few children succumb to illness as infants or toddlers or preteens.

And George really seems to be obsessed with birth as something that kills women - not only did many mothers who birthed main characters in ASoIaF die in childbirth, but he even had that as a major plot point in Fevre Dream where he created a ridiculous 'natural vampire species' (looking like humans but biologically different) whose children routinely kill their mothers during birth.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

14 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah, but don't you think GRRM shows us a representative sample in the text? If he wanted to give the impression such young marriages were more common, wouldn't he give us other examples than Tywin, a man who doesn't care for children in general and ordered the gang rape of a young girl, just to teach his son a lesson,  ordering both and LF making both possible, a man without scruple, who made one 11 year old a prostitute and wanted to marry another 11 year old

Right, that's my point is he does give us other examples. A whole slew of Targ's plus a few others that PK posted. To remove that entire group from the equation, when for a very long time they were prominent in a ton of noble marriages, is making the sample not indicative of the whole. 

14 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

but you could never see that from the outside, which girl would be able to bear a healthy child yet, since not everything is developing at the same rate. So a very young looking bride could f.example be already able to bear a healthy child, while a girl who is other ways more developed is no

We know that but up until even my Grandmother's age people spoke of 'child bearing hips' believing fully that was some indication as to how well a woman would carry & birth a child. 

14 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'd say most husbands would not want to anger the father though, since in a political marriage the husband usually gets more than just a wife. The father probably negotiated certain terms and if those were broken it might be similar to Robb breaking his oath(not so extreme of course)Also the father could negotiate, that the daughter lives with the family, until she is old enough to live with husband. For example with Lysa and Jon, Jon wanted military support. Usually the husband gets a dowry as well

The issue here is if the groom believes angering the father in law may result in the marriage being reversed, that would give him all the more reason to want to consummate & finalize the marriage as soon as possible. 

If terms are negotiated irt consummation (something I don't recall hearing any examples of, but could be possible) and the terms are broken then the father may have a leg to stand on. I imagine the negotiations for the marriage are more centered around material things & alliances though. 

14 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

but there is still always the risk of getting pregnant, when having sex, so it's a risk to be considered

It should be considered but these aren't a medically advanced people & concern for the woman seems to be the very last thing on their mind the majority of the time. 

14 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

true, but I still don't think they are representative of what the rest of the Westerosi ppl are doing

I think they are probably representative of what the rest of Westerosi noble folk are doing. If we had information on large numbers of non-Targ noble people not doing this I could agree but as it stands the Targ's are a large part of the only information we have. IRL that wouldn't mean much but since it's fiction I have to imagine George gave us the information he did as a sample indicative of the whole. 

14 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

usually it's  done to make an alliance, so even if the woman's family is less powerful the husband would want to have them on his side, so he can count on them in times of conflict or something similar like the Starks could count on the Tullys. If Ned had mistreated Cat things might have been different, just like the Tyrells wanted to make sure Joff wouldn't mistreat Margaer

Certainly until the marriage is final. Because of the way the society is, if Ned & Cats marriage was final & part of the negotiations were for the Tully's to be his allies, then Ned started mistreating her so Hoster refused to be his ally it would be seen as Hoster backing out on his word & breaking his oath, not the other way around because Ned took no oath to not mistreat her & I highly doubt it was part of any negotiations. 

The Tyrell's are a special case but even then they know they don't have a lot of ground to stand on after the marriage is consummated, that's why they dealt with Joff before it was consummated. 

14 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Of course some fathers would just not really care about a daughter on a personal level just like Bolton f.example, but I still argue he'd care on a political level, that his daughter an grandchild wouldn't die, because then the alliance would also be questionable again, the father would lose at least some of his power over the husband

Yeah this would certainly be something to consider. I think the most important thing to the husband would be getting an heir. Once he has that it doesn't matter irt politics if the woman dies, he still has the blood of the woman's family & any such alliance would still be intact. 

On the other hand, as I said, low life expectancy, high infant mortality rate, & political reasons may necessitate producing an heir as soon as possible. So it would be a balancing act of sorts & sometimes they wouldn't come out on the winning side, they would try, of course. It's not really known what they think irt sex producing a baby. They may believe it near impossible to get a woman pregnant after one time, or maybe penetration alone is enough to consummate. Plus there is moon tea.

I think if there are political needs for a marriage to take place prior to 15-16 there are likely political needs for a consummation also. I think because of the reasons you have stated the man would take some care not to get her pregnant during consummation but fear for the woman's life or making the father angry wouldn't come into account a whole lot. Yes, if the bride does get pregnant & then dies, along with the child, the alliance & political gain would die along with them. But that's alot of ifs. If the woman gets pregnant & dies but the child lives the alliance is in tact. If the woman doesn't get pregnant the alliance is in tact. So I think in most cases it would be seen as a necessary risk. 

14 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

oh I certainly agree, that it definitely happened and obviously was legal, I just don't think it was the norm

Yeah, I mean it probably was not. I would hope so anyway. 

14 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

no, no war but they could certainly retaliate by not upholding their parts of the commitment. For example no military aid

If some part of the negotiations were broken on behalf of the man yes. If not though, it would be the wife's family being seen as breaking their word to withold military aid. 

14 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Girls got their periods apparently two years later on average in the MA, but that probably includes both noble and low-born. 12 today is actually exactly the average

I figured somewhere around there. 25 years ago when I was starting my trek into woman hood 12 seemed to be a tad young but not unheard of. I never read any studies about it or anything, just basing off of when I & my friends started. 

14 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

wow, yeah. I mean it definitely does happen. Nowadays the medical possibilities are of course much better. young girls often have a preterm birth. Today usually no problem, in the MA of course a different story. But I assume the 12 year old was pregnant by someone closer to her own age. I just find a weird, that so many men in their 20ties find sansa attractive at 12. Similar with Dany, but at least she is 14, when most men find her attractive except Drogo of course

For sure. Twins is already a higher risk pregnancy, let alone at 12. Yes, I think the father was 13 or 14. 

I find it weird too & a little disgusting but I think it must not be meant that way by GRRM. I honestly can't imagine a grown man finding most 12 year olds attractive. I think there would be the occasion exception where a 12 year old is extremely developed & doesn't know they are 12. But knowing they are 12 being a turn off would be a modern mindset & a result of being told for generations that to be attracted to a 12 year old as a grown man is perverse. They wouldn't have that mindset before 

[Nagini's Neville]

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right, that's my point is he does give us other examples. A whole slew of Targ's plus a few others that PK posted. To remove that entire group from the equation, when for a very long time they were prominent in a ton of noble marriages, is making the sample not indicative of the whole. 

Yes, I agree that young marriages happened/happen among non Targs, just that it isn't common. And that the Targs are not really representative of what non Targs are doing. tbh I might not completely understood what you are saying here - apologies! My english brain is on vacation today somehow 

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We know that but up until even my Grandmother's age people spoke of 'child bearing hips' believing fully that was some indication as to how well a woman would carry & birth a child. 

Gotcha

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The issue here is if the groom believes angering the father in law may result in the marriage being reversed, that would give him all the more reason to want to consummate & finalize the marriage as soon as possible. 

not that the marriage is reversed, but that the father will retaliate by not upholding his part of the commitment like providing military strength etc.

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If terms are negotiated irt consummation (something I don't recall hearing any examples of, but could be possible)

I think mostly the family will just wait until the daughter would be old enough for consummation with the marriage. So we don't really have examples from the text were the daughter wasn't old enough yet. Only Sansa and Jeyne and they weren't given away by there fathers/families. But if for example for Robb it hadn't been enough to arrange an engagement between Sansa and whomever, I could imagine, that he would have agreed to a marriage right away, but would have arranged for Sansa to still live with Cat until she is 15 for example. Or just in general waited with the marriage until she was 15, like he planed to wait until Arya and the Frey boy were off age.

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I imagine the negotiations for the marriage are more centered around material things & alliances though. 

but if a father doesn't want to risk his daughter's death in childbirth this could also be included, why not? Ned after all was very uneasy about Sansa being already engaged at 11 and Cat had to calm him down and tell him a young engagement does not equal an early marriage, using herself as an example.

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It should be considered but these aren't a medically advanced people & concern for the woman seems to be the very last thing on their mind the majority of the time. 

I agree, but I'd say, that a decent family and man will at least be concerned about, that the woman doesn't die.

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think they are probably representative of what the rest of Westerosi noble folk are doing. If we had information on large numbers of non-Targ noble people not doing this I could agree but as it stands the Targ's are a large part of the only information we have. IRL that wouldn't mean much but since it's fiction I have to imagine George gave us the information he did as a sample indicative of the whole. 

I disagree, because the Targs are also practicing incest and that is a taboo for the rest of Westerosi noble Society. And when they are marrying their siblings, those are usually closer in age then f.e. Jeyne and Ramsey or Sansa and Tyrion. It's more like Tysha and Tyrion then. And that's at least a bit better, when both are children

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Because of the way the society is, if Ned & Cats marriage was final & part of the negotiations were for the Tully's to be his allies, then Ned started mistreating her so Hoster refused to be his ally it would be seen as Hoster backing out on his word & breaking his oath, not the other way around because Ned took no oath to not mistreat her & I highly doubt it was part of any negotiations. 

sure, but if Cat had been 12/13 and Ned had sworn an oath to wait with consummation at least until she was 15 and she would have gotten pregnant at 13, Hoster backing out on this word would just be retaliating for ned not keeping his.

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The Tyrell's are a special case but even then they know they don't have a lot of ground to stand on after the marriage is consummated, that's why they dealt with Joff before it was consummated. 

I just mentioned them to illustrate, that there are families, who are concerned about their daughters well-being. Of course Margaery's case is different, because she is already 16 so she fore sure wouldn't die in childbirth, because of being to young.

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think the most important thing to the husband would be getting an heir.

Not if he is a good person

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

On the other hand, as I said, low life expectancy, high infant mortality rate, & political reasons may necessitate producing an heir as soon as possible. So it would be a balancing act of sorts & sometimes they wouldn't come out on the winning side, they would try, of course.

possible

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's not really known what they think irt sex producing a baby. They may believe it near impossible to get a woman pregnant after one time, or maybe penetration alone is enough to consummate. Plus there is moon tea.

yeah, we really don't know enough in that regard. But medical knowledge seems to be better, than in the actual MA, so I assume they would be aware, that you only have to have sex once for pregnancy. Just from experience. Roslin also got pregnant right away f.e.

But weird, that they didn't think about moon tea in regards to sansa. And I still don't really know what Tywin's goal was in regards to her. 

Because before the marriage he basically tells tyrion, the only important thing would be consummation once and he could wait after that a couple of years, but after consummation didn't happen he states there needs to be an heir as soon a possible. Feels like he doesn't know what he wants himself. But i guess the most important thing for him here is the consummation.

"You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as her husband.” "

 

"The north will go to your son by Sansa Stark … if you ever find enough manhood in you to breed one. Lest you forget, it is not only Joffrey who must needs take a maidenhead.” I had not forgotten, though I’d hoped you had. “And when do you imagine Sansa will be at her most fertile?” Tyrion asked his father in tones that dripped acid. “Before or after I tell her how we murdered her mother and her brother?” "

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think because of the reasons you have stated the man would take some care not to get her pregnant during consummation

That's good point, I hadn't considered yet.

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think because of the reasons you have stated the man would take some care not to get her pregnant during consummation but fear for the woman's life or making the father angry wouldn't come into account a whole lot.

IMO if the husband is a good person, it would. Not everyone is a calculating jerk IMO

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, if the bride does get pregnant & then dies, along with the child, the alliance & political gain would die along with them. But that's alot of ifs. If the woman gets pregnant & dies but the child lives the alliance is in tact. If the woman doesn't get pregnant the alliance is in tact. So I think in most cases it would be seen as a necessary risk. 

Still think a lot of husbands would have scruple to deliberately go against the father's/brother's wishes. If those were their wishes.

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

On 21. Februar 2020 at 11:41 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

oh I certainly agree, that it definitely happened and obviously was legal, I just don't think it was the norm

Yeah, I mean it probably was not. I would hope so anyway. 

On 21. Februar 2020 at 11:41 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

no, no war but they could certainly retaliate by not upholding their parts of the commitment. For example no military aid

If some part of the negotiations were broken on behalf of the man yes. If not though, it would be the wife's family being seen as breaking their word to withold military aid. 

agreed

 

Quote

 

I figured somewhere around there. 25 years ago when I was starting my trek into woman hood 12 seemed to be a tad young but not unheard of. I never read any studies about it or anything, just basing off of when I & my friends started. 

 

maybe it's now earlier on average. I think my friends had it all around 12. I think the normal range is between 10-15, but of course there are also girls, who already get it at 8 or 16 on occasion.

https://kidshealth.org/en/kids/menstruation.html

On 22. Februar 2020 at 2:29 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I find it weird too & a little disgusting but I think it must not be meant that way by GRRM.

Yeah, it seems like it. I find it weird though. Especially if it's known, that most noble girls were married in the MA earliest at 15.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yes, I agree that young marriages happened/happen among non Targs, just that it isn't common. And that the Targs are not really representative of what non Targs are doing. tbh I might not completely understood what you are saying here - apologies! My english brain is on vacation today somehow 

No worries! My English was not very clear. I was just basically saying I don't think it's fair to remove the Targ marriages from the rest even though they seem to marry younger because they were a large portion of the nobility for quite a while. 

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

not that the marriage is reversed, but that the father will retaliate by not upholding his part of the commitment like providing military strength 

Right but unless waiting to consummate was part of the negotiations it would be the brides family that were breaking their word. 

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

think mostly the family will just wait until the daughter would be old enough for consummation with the marriage. So we don't really have examples from the text were the daughter wasn't old enough yet. Only Sansa and Jeyne and they weren't given away by there fathers/families. But if for example for Robb it hadn't been enough to arrange an engagement between Sansa and whomever, I could imagine, that he would have agreed to a marriage right away, but would have arranged for Sansa to still live with Cat until she is 15 for example. Or just in general waited with the marriage until she was 15, like he planed to wait until Arya and the Frey boy were off age

It isn't just those two though. A poster above (I think PeachKing?) Posted a list of marriages made prior to 15/16. 

I think if there is no rush, certainly they would wait, why not? But there are times when there would be reason to solidify the marriage & the alliance asap. 

I don't think they would have arranged for the marriage right away but left Sansa living with Cat. More likely, they would just wait until she was old enough to marry. I think probably a married woman living with her mother instead of her husband would be quite unorthodox. 

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

but if a father doesn't want to risk his daughter's death in childbirth this could also be included, why not? Ned after all was very uneasy about Sansa being already engaged at 11 and Cat had to calm him down and tell him a young engagement does not equal an early marriage, using herself as an example

It's certainly possible, but we don't hear any example of it so I wouldn't think it would be the norm. 

I think if there is political reason to "rush" the marriage, & it is done after flowering but before 15/16, that same political reason would necessitate a consummation. If the marriage needs rushed but the bride is before flowering it would wait until at least after her flowering. If there is no political reason to rush the marriage they would just wait until the bride is 15/16 to be married

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

agree, but I'd say, that a decent family and man will at least be concerned about, that the woman doesn't die.

Sure, I would think most of the families would be concerned about that, I just don't think it's likely part of the marriage negotiations. Just because how women are viewed as a whole. Their main "purpose" is to produce heirs. As much as a family may want to include waiting to consummate in the negotiations, if there is a reason to be marrying before 15/16 anyway, refusing to consummate would likely be a deal breaker in the groom's families eyes. They may suspect treachery; as soon as their end of the bargain is held up they may back out. 

For instance, let's say Walder Frey was negotiating a marriage contract between Sweetie & one of his daughters who are 12/13. This hypothetical marriage is being made because Walder needs Sweeties army to defend his lands. In return Robb is getting a dowry of gold along with the promise of Walders army to return with Sweetie to retake WF from the nasty Boltons. But this is only to happen after the marriage & after Sweeties army helps Walders squash their foe. Walder being the sneaky snake he is puts into the marriage contract that Robb is not to consummate the marriage until Walders daughter becomes 15. Sweetie, being the trusting soul he is, agrees. Sweetie & young Walda get married, Sweeties men help Walders defeat his foes. After resting up a bit at the Twins Sweetie prepares his army to march North & retake WF. Upon inquiring about the men of Walders he was promised, Walder reneges on the promise & cites the marriage not being consummated & Robb being a rebel to the crown to get the marriage annulled. Now Sweetie is up a shit creek without a paddle. 

I'm being silly but you get the idea. Entering a "wait to consummate" addendum into a marriage made with a flowered girl, for a political alliance may be seen as leaving an opening to annul the marriage once one half of the party gets what they want from the other. 

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

disagree, because the Targs are also practicing incest and that is a taboo for the rest of Westerosi noble Society. And when they are marrying their siblings, those are usually closer in age then f.e. Jeyne and Ramsey or Sansa and Tyrion. It's more like Tysha and Tyrion then. And that's at least a bit better, when both are children

I agree it's better when they are closer in age, I just don't think the people of Westeros see much of a difference. 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

sure, but if Cat had been 12/13 and Ned had sworn an oath to wait with consummation at least until she was 15 and she would have gotten pregnant at 13, Hoster backing out on this word would just be retaliating for ned not keeping his

Yeah, absolutely. If Ned had sworn that oath or agreed to it as part of the marriage contract, then yeah, I agree. 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

just mentioned them to illustrate, that there are families, who are concerned about their daughters well-being. Of course Margaery's case is different, because she is already 16 so she fore sure wouldn't die in childbirth, because of being to young

For sure. I would think most families would be concerned about their daughters well-being but it's something to note that the Tyrell's had to deal with their "situation" out side of what is considered legal. They had to scheme to make sure Margaery was safe & not mistreated, likely because of the way women are looked at in universe they had no "legal" ways to deal with it. 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Not if he is a good person

Yeah, you're right. A decent person would be concerned about the life of another human being even if they weren't "in love" with them. 

I just don't see any way around it happening anyway, sometimes. 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah, we really don't know enough in that regard. But medical knowledge seems to be better, than in the actual MA, so I assume they would be aware, that you only have to have sex once for pregnancy. Just from experience. Roslin also got pregnant right away f.e.

True. They would likely know it can happen after only once. As you said Roslin & I'm sure it's happened lots before too. 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But weird, that they didn't think about moon tea in regards to sansa. And I still don't really know what Tywin's goal was in regards to her

Yeah, I don't know why they don't think of that. They don't seem to mention the fear of her dying during childbirth at all iirc. Which is odd because even if they don't give a damn about her, they need an heir, eventually, to keep hold on WF. 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Because before the marriage he basically tells tyrion, the only important thing would be consummation once and he could wait after that a couple of years, but after consummation didn't happen he states there needs to be an heir as soon a possible. Feels like he doesn't know what he wants himself. But i guess the most important thing for him here is the consummation

Yeah it is weird. The plan could have been ever evolving with Tywin, making consummation the most important in his opinion originally & then at some point thinking he needed an heir soon? Idk but I would assume his plans were not to let Ramsay & fArya hold WF, so there was likely some sort of the plan we didn't see, cut short by Tywin's untimely death.

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Still think a lot of husbands would have scruple to deliberately go against the father's/brother's wishes. If those were their wishes

Yeah, maybe you're right. I don't disagree the family would worry about that & a decent groom would worry about it as well. It's in the best interest of everyone if the bride lives, so it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility that there is something put in play to try to lower that risk. 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

maybe it's now earlier on average. I think my friends had it all around 12. I think the normal range is between 10-15, but of course there are also girls, who already get it at 8 or 16 on occasion

I could just be guessing the average from my teen years wrong. I think I'm a little older than you also though so maybe the average has lowered through the years. I was a little late, my younger sister & I started the same year. I was 14, she was 10 so the range you said seems pretty accurate. 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, it seems like it. I find it weird though. Especially if it's known, that most noble girls were married in the MA earliest at 15.

Yeah, that certainly puts an odd spin on things. He seems to like to write about sexual deviancy though, so maybe this is just another example of that. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Tyrion sympathized with Sansa and to stick it to his family .

[Nagini's Neville]

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's certainly possible, but we don't hear any example of it so I wouldn't think it would be the norm. 

We don't hear any examples of it, but GRRM said " however, even there, many husbands will wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth, which the maesters will have noted."

"Husbands" does imply, they were already married to a young girl, but waited. So that wasn't unusual.

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think if there is political reason to "rush" the marriage, & it is done after flowering but before 15/16, that same political reason would necessitate a consummation. If the marriage needs rushed but the bride is before flowering it would wait until at least after her flowering. If there is no political reason to rush the marriage they would just wait until the bride is 15/16 to be married

But I don't think, that usually there would be the risk of the bride being "stolen". So I don't see, why if she was married at 12/13 and already living with her husband, immediate consummation would be necessary. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

40 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

We don't hear any examples of it, but GRRM said " however, even there, many husbands will wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth, which the maesters will have noted."

"Husbands" does imply, they were already married to a young girl, but waited. So that wasn't unusual.

Yeah I see what you are saying. Definitely not unusual. I was saying there weren't any examples of the brides family putting in a "wait to consummate" clause in the marriage contract. But yeah it seems unless there is reason not to wait, they will wait, which makes sense. 

50 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But I don't think, that usually there would be the risk of the bride being "stolen". So I don't see, why if she was married at 12/13 and already living with her husband, immediate consummation would be necessary. 

No, not stolen but there would be cases where one or both parties would want the marriage final before proceeding with any further promises. 

[corbon]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No worries! My English was not very clear. I was just basically saying I don't think it's fair to remove the Targ marriages from the rest even though they seem to marry younger because they were a large portion of the nobility for quite a while. 

...

It isn't just those two though. A poster above (I think PeachKing?) Posted a list of marriages made prior to 15/16. 

Part of the problem with choosing to ignore Targ examples is that they make up the vast proportion of marriages where the brides age is known - because of the extra books specifically about them.

Basically we just have no information at all on 99.9% of the ages of marriage.

Of those we do know, 90%+ (rough estimate) are Targs.

Of the not-Targs we know, there are very few. How many exactly? Not sure. Maybe twenty, probably less (without making an effort to count them!)

Of those there are at least 3 or 4 IIRC from Peachking's list + Sansa that are clearly under 15.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Part of the problem with choosing to ignore Targ examples is that they make up the vast proportion of marriages where the brides age is known - because of the extra books specifically about them.

Basically we just have no information at all on 99.9% of the ages of marriage.

Of those we do know, 90%+ (rough estimate) are Targs.

Of the not-Targs we know, there are very few. How many exactly? Not sure. Maybe twenty, probably less (without making an effort to count them!)

Of those there are at least 3 or 4 IIRC from Peachking's list + Sansa that are clearly under 15.

Yeah exactly. 

If we had a bunch of non-targ ages & they were 15+ then we could say marrying under 15 was potentially a "Targ" thing. 

But since the lot of the info we have is on Targs all we can safely say is that it was done. 

I personally think George gave us these ages to representative of the whole but I could be wrong. 

[Nevets]

One thing to take note of is the in-world reaction to the fact that Sansa is not yet 13 when she marries.  There is none.  Unless I've forgotten something, Tyrion is the only person to object on the basis of her age.  No one else comments on it, even outside KL.  Not even her family objects on that basis.

It is also interesting to examine Jon's reaction to the news that Ramsay is to marry Arya.  Someone asks how old she is, and he thinks to himself "she's 11."  And while he is worried that she might fight back and get herself killed, this is probably mainly due to Ramsay's reputation.  At no time does he think that she is too young to marry.  Although if the real Arya had shown up, even the assembled Lords might have had questions about it considering her appearance.  I doubt that they know her actual age.

My point here is that while Sansa's age is on the low end, it does not appear to be so unusual as to attract comment, much less be regarded as unacceptable.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

46 minutes ago, Nevets said:

One thing to take note of is the in-world reaction to the fact that Sansa is not yet 13 when she marries.  There is none.  Unless I've forgotten something, Tyrion is the only person to object on the basis of her age.  No one else comments on it, even outside KL.  Not even her family objects on that basis

Indeed. Not even Sansa, herself, in her inner thoughts or her spoken words rejects the marriage on the basis of her or Tyrion's ages. 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Indeed. Not even Sansa, herself, in her inner thoughts or her spoken words rejects the marriage on the basis of her or Tyrion's ages. 

 

But to be fair she does think, when she is just a year younger, that Beric "was awfully old, almost twenty-two;" and Tyrion is 26. She has been beaten down so much at this point, that she "accepts" a lot of things now, she would have fought against just a year prior. And also Sansa isn't the best informed, when it comes to what is acceptable in this situation and what are her rights etc. what the adults tell her here, she thinks she has to accept. There are a lot of horrible things, that happen to her, that she doesn't reflect on being specifically horrible even though it's clearly wrong and inappropriate (the Hound's threats; LF's kisses; Joffrey groping her; Pycelle..)

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

But to be fair she does think, when she is just a year younger, that Beric "was awfully old, almost twenty-two;" and Tyrion is 26. She has been beaten down so much at this point, that she "accepts" a lot of things now, she would have fought against just a year prior. And also Sansa isn't the best informed, when it comes to what is acceptable in this situation and what are her rights etc. what the adults tell her here, she thinks she has to accept. There are a lot of horrible things, that happen to her, that she doesn't reflect on being specifically horrible even though it's clearly wrong and inappropriate (the Hound's threats; LF's kisses; Joffrey groping her; Pycelle..)

 

Yeah but she doesn't ever cite her or Tyrion's ages as a reason she doesn't want to be married to him.

If it were only her I wouldn't think much about it because of the reasons you say, but it's no one. Not one person, besides Tyrion, including her own family rejects the marriage on those grounds. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah but she doesn't ever cite her or Tyrion's ages as a reason she doesn't want to be married to him.

No, because it's probably the last reason on a long lists of reasons why she didn't want to marry him, doesn't mean this is what she wanted for herself. It obviously wasn't, since Beric was already to old at 21, which is reasonable for a 11 year old.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

No, because it's probably the last reason on a long lists of reasons why she didn't want to marry him, doesn't mean this is what she wanted for herself. It obviously wasn't, since Beric was already to old at 21, which is reasonable for a 11 year old.

 

She says Beric is old, not that he is too old to be married to. 

She didn't want it for herself for lots of reasons & one very well may have been that she envisioned herself being married to someone younger but the point is there doesn't seem to be any rejection by her or anyone else on the grounds that she is too young to be married or that he is too old for her to be married to. 

[Nagini's Neville]

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If it were only her I wouldn't think much about it because of the reasons you say, but it's no one. Not one person, besides Tyrion, including her own family rejects the marriage on those grounds. 

The Lannisters obviously don't care and the Starks don't expect differently from the Lannisters, so why especially mention it?, they think the worst of them already and it's obviously possibly to marry a girl so young, doesn't mean Robb and Cat agree with it or that's what they would have wanted for Sansa (obviously they wanted to wait for years until Sansa and Joff would be wed), but not really unexpected from Tywin, who has also no problems murdering children.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The Lannisters obviously don't care and the Starks don't expect differently from the Lannisters, so why especially mention it?, they think the worst of them already and it's obviously possibly to marry a girl so young, doesn't mean Robb and Cat agree with it or that's what they would have wanted for Sansa (obviously they wanted to wait for years until Sansa and Joff would be wed), but not really unexpected from Tywin, who has also no problems murdering children.

No, it's not that they would have wanted this for Sansa - they didn't or wouldn't have. It's that the reasons they cite why they don't or wouldn't want it have nothing to do with her or his age, meaning it's not odd or un-ordinary. 

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She says Beric is old, not that he is too old to be married to.  

she definitely says that in regards to marriage between him and Jeyne 

"he was awfully old, almost twenty-two; the Knight of Flowers would have been much better. Of course, Jeyne had been in love with Lord Beric ever since she had first glimpsed him in the lists. Sansa thought she was being silly; Jeyne was only a steward’s daughter, after all, and no matter how much she mooned after him, Lord Beric would never look at someone so far beneath him, even if she hadn’t been half his age."

6 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

there doesn't seem to be any rejection by her or anyone else on the grounds that she is too young to be married or that he is too old for her to be married to. 

Sansa doesn't reject openly or in her thoughts a lot of things, that are obviously wrong, she doesn't want and are harmful to her. 

[Nagini's Neville]

6 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No, it's not that they would have wanted this for Sansa - they didn't or wouldn't have. It's that the reasons they cite why they don't or wouldn't want it have nothing to do with her or his age, meaning it's not odd or un-ordinary. 

It's acceptable. But that doesn't mean it's common.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

she definitely says that in regards to marriage between him and Jeyne 

"he was awfully old, almost twenty-two; the Knight of Flowers would have been much better. Of course, Jeyne had been in love with Lord Beric ever since she had first glimpsed him in the lists. Sansa thought she was being silly; Jeyne was only a steward’s daughter, after all, and no matter how much she mooned after him, Lord Beric would never look at someone so far beneath him, even if she hadn’t been half his age."

Indeed. I had forgotten the context. Ty

1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sansa doesn't reject openly or in her thoughts a lot of things, that are obviously wrong, she doesn't want and are harmful to her.

Yeah for sure. There's an easy answer for why Sansa doesn't but why not anyone else? Why not her family?