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Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

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4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I would like to point out here that while she did not consent to the marriage, actively refused it even

Outstanding post.
I never got the time or energy to break the whole thing down this way, only bits at a time for people, some private, some public, but it captures what I read exactly. Thank you.

Some excerpts to reflect upon how a 0% empathy point of view is dangerous...

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

"My lady, this is no way to bring you to your wedding. I am sorry for that. And for making this so sudden, and so secret. My lord father felt it necessary, for reasons of estate. Else I would have come to you sooner, as I wished." He waddled closer. "You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce." 

...

"You are kind, my lord," she said, defeated. "I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands

 

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He studied her with his mismatched eyes. "I know I am not the sort of husband young girls dream of, Sansa," he said softly, "but neither am I Joffrey." 

"No," she said. "You were kind to me, I remember.

Tyrion offered her a thick, blunt-fingered hand. "Come, then. Let us do our duty."

 

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It is Sansa who initiates the bedding

"Would you have me undress, my lord?"

"Tyrion." He cocked his head. "My name is Tyrion, Sansa."

Sansa asks the question, Tyrion ignores it. 

"Tyrion. My lord. Should I take off my gown, or do you want to undress me?" She took another swallow of wine. 

Tyrion ignores the question again, instead deflecting & speaking on his first marriage. 

He then asks her how old she is. She answers 13 when the moon turns. Tyrion says

"Gods have mercy." The dwarf took another swallow of wine. "Well, talk won't make you older. Shall we get on with this, my lady? If it please you?"

"It will please me to please my lord husband." 

Ok so now he recommends getting on with it but still asks her if it's ok, to which she assents.

 

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He tells her he is her husband now & that she can remove her armor (speaking of her courtesy, that uses as armor) inviting her to be truthful with him in regards to what she wants & is comfortable with. Now I cannot blame Sansa for not trusting Tyrion with the truth, even though he has been kind to her, he is still a Lannister. But I cannot either blame Tyrion for not being able to read her mind. By all outward appearances she is consenting to this, she is bringing up the undressing & not once, or twice, but 3 times asks him if he wants her to take her clothes off. 

After they have removed their clothes, Sansa is shy & looking at the ground. Tyrion remarks that she is a child, to which she replies she has flowered. Seemingly arguing with him about her child status. 

 

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So, contrary to what has been stated earlier Tyrion did not reach out to her expecting her to comfort him, but rather was stating a hard truth.

 

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He is as frightened as I amSansa realizes. 

 

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

BUT he has tried to make it perfectly clear to her that she can be honest with him. He has tried to make it clear to her that he will be kind to her, he means her no harm. He comes to understand that she isn't going to enjoy this but is assenting anyway, because it is her duty. So he gets on the bed & puts his hand on her breast. At that point Sansa can no longer maintain her facade of outward assent & involuntarily shudders. It is at this point that Tyrion understands that she isn't merely trying to do her duty, but that for all outward appearances this is traumatizing to her & he stops. 

 

We have seen, through this discussion, misrepresentations and outright lies about how this scene is played. I don't believe they were deliberate. I believe they come because of a 0% empathy point of view allows utterly ignoring , to the point where it can't even be seen, anything that does not fit with the empathy for the other side.
And Sansa deserves every bit of empathy we can give her.

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57 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I just can not remember him ever thinking, that he'd be better for Sansa as a husband, than any other Lannister. If you know in which "area" it is, I can search myself.

I don't think its a direct quote. Its a combination of many things.
 

Quote

ASoS Tyrion III - the council scene, Tyrion figures out Tywin is going to have him marry Sansa.

That was scarcely a point to sway his father, however, so Tyrion squirmed higher in his seat and said, "You mean to wed me to Sansa Stark. But won't the Tyrells take the match as an affront, if they have designs on the girl?"
...

Tyrion objects the first time.

Quote
Tyrion rubbed at the raw stub of his nose. The scar tissue itched abominably sometimes. "His Grace the royal pustule has made Sansa's life a misery since the day her father died, and now that she is finally rid of Joffrey you propose to marry her to me. That seems singularly cruel. Even for you, Father."
"Why, do you plan to mistreat her?" His father sounded more curious than concerned. "The girl's happiness is not my purpose, nor should it be yours. Our alliances in the south may be as solid as Casterly Rock, but there remains the north to win, and the key to the north is Sansa Stark."
 

He says this is cruel to Sansa - his father asks if he will mistreat her. 

Quote
"She is no more than a child."
"Your sister swears she's flowered. If so, she is a woman, fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as her husband."

He objects again, with a new tack.
Note that the consummation is critical.
Note also that thereafter he is explicitly free to wait - so I very much had a mis-idea earlier when I talked about pregnancy (or something like that) quickly. Its just the consummation once to seal that marriage that matters.

Quote

Shae is all the woman I need just now, he thought, and Sansa's a girl, no matter what you say. "If your purpose here is to keep her from the Tyrells, why not return her to her mother? Perhaps that would convince Robb Stark to bend the knee."
Lord Tywin's look was scornful. "Send her to Riverrun and her mother will match her with a Blackwood or a Mallister to shore up her son's alliances along the Trident. Send her north, and she will be wed to some Manderly or Umber before the moon turns. Yet she is no less dangerous here at court, as this business with the Tyrells should prove. She must marry a Lannister, and soon."

Tyrion tries another tack again. The answer is that Sansa must marry a Lannister, and soon.

Quote
"The man who weds Sansa Stark can claim Winterfell in her name," his uncle Kevan put in. "Had that not occurred to you?"
"If you will not have the girl, we shall give her to one of your cousins," said his father. "Kevan, is Lancel strong enough to wed, do you think?"
Ser Kevan hesitated. "If we bring the girl to his bedside, he could say the words . . . but to consummate, no . . . I would suggest one of the twins, but the Starks hold them both at Riverrun. They have Genna's boy Tion as well, else he might serve."
Tyrion let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew. Sansa Stark, he mused. Soft-spoken sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces. He felt as though he was back on the bridge of boats, the deck shifting beneath his feet.

His father and uncle are trying to convince him. So he's not all over this for his own benefit. Making it clear while they do so that if not him, another Lannister, no matter whom they have to find.

Quote

"Then open your eyes. The Stark girl is young, nubile, tractable, of the highest birth, and still a maid. She is not uncomely. Why would you hesitate?"
Why indeed? "A quirk of mine. Strange to say, I would prefer a wife who wants me in her bed."

He's still not convinced. He literally wants a willing wife.

Quote

"Yes, we all know how important my pleasure is to you, Father. But there's more to this. The key to the north, you say? The Greyjoys hold the north now, and King Balon has a daughter. Why Sansa Stark, and not her?" He looked into his father's cool green eyes with their bright flecks of gold.

He's still objecting. Now its only because its Sansa, and he knows how bad it will be for her. He's trying to get out of doing this to her.

Quote

Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill. "Very good, Father," he said slowly, "but there's a big ugly roach in your rushes. Robb Stark is as capable as I am, presumably, and sworn to marry one of those fertile Freys. And once the Young Wolf sires a litter, any pups that Sansa births are heirs to nothing."

He's still objecting. 

Eventually he runs out of objections. There's a combination of:
1. This is happening to her regardless of what he chooses.
2. He doesn't want Sansa for a wife as she is too young, not ready, and not willing
3. Yes, Winterfell is a huge bonus. Someone's going to get it and her, why shouldn't it be him? 
Tyrion is the hero of his own story. He will (does) treat Sansa as well as she can possibly be treated. He does, later, give her every possible opportunity and opening to make things better. I don't think there is any reason he should expect that consideration, to her, from any other member of his family. As far as he can tell he very very much will be the best possible option for her in this circumstance.
I expect that he would expect any other Lannister to treat her with considerably less consideration than he does. They'd only be doing it on orders, and for the same Winterfell benefit, and with no more, probably less, regard for Sansa as a person.

But, note, even after all that, he's still willing to give up Winterfell, and Sansa, if only she says the word.

Edited by corbon
note->note

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55 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Tyrion is however not so stupid as you paint him here IMO. After he rescued her, he saw right through her lies, even though he called her a good liar. And after they are married, even though she keeps her armor of courtesy, he sees her misery grows everyday. He is a good observer, when it comes to Sansa throughout the books, he always notices, that something is wrong with her, one time earlier in clash he calls her white as milk. When they are married he notices, how her eyes are red from crying over mom and bro, he notices, that she has a haunted look and that grief made her only more beautiful... well yeah. Why should he suddenly be less good of an observer during their wedding ceremony and night, why should he suddenly not be able to look through her courtesy and recognize her misery?

Because she's going to be miserable regardless of what happens. She's a hostage and her family is dying and she's being abused and mistreated by his family. Nothing he can do will change any of that. "Recognising her misery" doesn;t absolve any of those things. He supports and protects her as best he can and gives her every opportunity. 
Yet, she's actively working through that and actively making choices and actively giving him every signal to keep go forward despite all the opportunities he gives her to pull out.

People are capable of making conscious choices that go against their feelings because they know its in their best interest due to circumstances.
Sansa did that. Although she was never in a position to give true, absolute, consent, she gave consent and encouragement to him personally at multiple times through the day and refused every opportunity he gave her to pull back.
Until finally, her feelings overcame her conscious will, and her consent was clearly withdrawn, whereupon he stopped immediately, for her sake, despite his desires and feelings, despite the legal rights and obligations they both had at that point, despite her utter rejection of him after he gave her his vulnerability, despite the humiliation he suffered for her sake.
Even she recognised that after he made himself vulnerable to her, he was as frightened as she was. And sadly, that ruined any tiny chance they had together, as pity kills desire. Sansa's own thoughts.
But 0% empathy ignores everything and says "he's a monster because she was frightened".

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@Nagini's Neville & @Mystical, I 100% understand that you might feel personally attacked by some comments made here. I haven’t been participating lately, but I have been reading. And I get it. But I must say I also get what @corbon is saying. And @Lyanna<3Rhaegar and @teej6. In fact, on most topics I agree w/ corbon, L<3R and teej6 100% 99,9% of the time. This is a difficult and delicate topic. My go-to reaction is to side w/ Sansa, she’s so obviously the victim here, and, IMO, very clearly a victim of sexual abuse. Or, better said, what we would see as sexual abuse nowadays. Even in Westeros though, she is very clearly the abused individual here. And it obviously doesn’t help that I am not Tyrion’s biggest fan, to put it mildly. 

But if I manage to detach myself from my it all, I can see how Tyrion is, in a different way, also a victim, and therefore also worthy of empathy and sympathy. 

Do I think he did all he could have done to help Sansa and make her feel safe? Fuck, no. But I think he did do the best he could do, given the circumstances. 

:dunno:

 

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1 minute ago, Wall Flower said:

Well if I was Queen of Westeros (Wallflower for Queen!) I would ban all arranged marriages unless the participants had the right to choose whether or not to be married or to freely accept/refuse the proposed candidate. Anything less than that is a forced marriage in my opinion (as a 21st century reader).

Agreed. I don;t think you'd last long as Queen though. :)

1 minute ago, Wall Flower said:

In Sansa's case it is clearly a forced marriage. She may have expected her husband to be chosen for her but by her parents to benefit and strengthen her family and House Stark. She is being forced into a marriage by the enemies of her family in order to use her to steal House Stark's inherited power and property. Sansa is a child, trying to react to this abnormal situation in the ways her septa had instructed her to act as a wife to a husband. It's only a facade, which is why it breaks down so quickly when Sansa is faced with the reality of a marriage bed she doesn't want and is in no way ready for.

Agreed.

1 minute ago, Wall Flower said:

It is to Tyrion's credit that he does stop and accepts that she may never want him.

Agreed.

1 minute ago, Wall Flower said:

However, I think other posters have a point that he is aware that Sansa is a child and being forced into the marriage and therefore he does bear responsibility for letting things go as far as they did.

What should he have done differently?

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4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Tyrion is however not so stupid as you paint him here IMO.

That wasn't my intention, I think Tyrion is very smart, smarter than most even. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

After he rescued her, he saw right through her lies, even though he called her a good liar. And after they are married, even though she keeps her armor of courtesy, he sees her misery grows everyday. He is a good observer, when it comes to Sansa throughout the books, he always notices, that something is wrong with her, one time earlier in clash he calls her white as milk. When they are married he notices, how her eyes are red from crying over mom and bro, he notices, that she has a haunted look and that grief made her only more beautiful... well yeah. Why should he suddenly be less good of an observer during their wedding ceremony and night, why should he suddenly not be able to look through her courtesy and recognize her misery?

He isn't less of a good observer during their wedding night. If he were he could have mistaken her shudder for passion or wanting. I'm saying he is a very good observer that's why he notices. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But all of that doesn't matter anyway. Because Tyrion knew from the start, while he was still talking about it with his father, that Tywin would force her

Yes, that Tywin would force her. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And if you have no choice, you can not consent, that's just a fact. 

But he offered her a choice. Tyrion did. He offered to call off the whole thing & she declined. If she has to be married (and she does because Tywin will force it) she has consented to be married to Tyrion. Not because she wanted to be married to Tyrion, but because she is in a horrible situation & I assume, thinks this is the lesser of two evils. 

So, no she didn't consent to be married, but she did consent to be married to Tyrion. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Doesn't matter how she apparently behaved or not. Doesn't matter who forced her, she is forced into it. And how please can you tell me, that a smart man like Tyrion wouldn't know that? He lived with this family his whole life, they have been abused him themselves, he knows how Tywin and Cersei operate. Tywin decided, that Sansa would be married and there is no way that doesn't happen and if they have to torture her to make it happen. Tyrion does not force Sansa, but she is forced and Tyrion knows that

Of course it matters how she behaves. The moment she behaves as if what he is doing is bothering her beyond the normal being shy & nervous he stops. 

It matters who forced her if we are placing blame right?

I'm not arguing Tyrion wouldn't have known she was being forced. He knows, he says it to her (paraphrasing) "you didn't ask for this any more than I did"

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And I know you don't mean it that way, but it still comes across to me as victim- blaming

I take great offense to this. I have never, nor would I ever blame a victim for their circumstances & if you know that isn't what I mean how does it come across that way? 

I've specifically said, repeatedly, that Sansa is the victim & this is not her fault. 

Saying Sansa showed outward signs of assent is NOT in anyway, shape, or form saying any of this is her fault. This is her means for survival, her armor. She has built those walls of courtesy to protect herself & she holds them high. There is nothing to blame her for. She did what she needed to do to survive. I'm only saying that her armor gives the appearance of assent, against her actual feelings & this is what Tyrion is seeing. 

He knows the situation she is in & he can imagine how she may feel or what she may want but what she says is going to Trump that for him, he isn't in her mind. Until she can no longer hold up that wall of courtesy he does not see behind it. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Victims display a brought range of behavior while being abused, to deal with the trauma. It doesn't matter, that she offered to take her clothes off, Tyrion knows she was forced. He knows he now as the husband holds all the power, she has 0. Those are the laws, he knows the law. Now, that she is married she tries to play the role, that she was trained her whole life to fulfill. She was forced to promise to Tyrion to obey him. Tyrion knows that. The knowledge that she was forced should be enough for Tyrion.

We may have to agree to disagree here because it matters greatly that she offered to take her clothes off. It matters irt Tyrion's culpability. 

Yes, Tyrion holds the power & tries to give some to her. He asks her if she is ready to take her clothes off. Tyrion knows she was forced to be wed. He also knows he isn't forcing her to bed. She is trying to be a "good girl" & do her duty & what is expected of her but in doing so is giving Tyrion confirmation to continue. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

kidnapp victim doesn't rebuff the advances of their captor, it is still considered rape

Tyrion has not kidnapped her though. He tells her, he isn't like the rest of them, something she knows & agrees with because she has witnessed it. He tells her to remove her armor & be truthful with him. He is giving her choices where she believes she has none. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But another very important thing is, that in universe Sansa was unlawfully married. Her father was not a traitor, Joffrey is not Robert's heir. The killing of Eddard Stark was committed based on a lie and Joffrey giving Sansa away in marriage is unlawful - he is nothing but a bastard and Tyrion knows that. He knows, that Ned discovered the truth, he knows, that Joffrey is Jaime's son

Absolutely. All the more reason Tywin & Cersei are wrong for forcing her into this. 

Tyrion knowing is not the same as Tyrion participating. He didn't kill Ned, didn't have bastards with his sibling & pawn them off as the Kings, didn't arrange & force Sansa into a marriage. He had no power to stop any of these things & no one to tell to get help to stop them if he wanted to. The people committing the crimes are the highest law there is in Westeros. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So Tyrion touching Sansa sexually is unlawful since she "belongs" to her family. Just as it is unlawful that they killed Ned on charges of being a traitor

One thing just does not equate the other. Tyrion has lawfully married her, under the eyes of the King. As unfair as it is that they have taken Sansa from her family & killed her father, the wedding isn't unlawful. 

I don't think there are any laws about being forced against your will, by your King, to wed but if there are then I would agree the wedding is unlawful. 

Of course it's wrong & amoral & heinous but the law is amoral & wrong & heinous. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

course Sansa thinks Tyrion is kind, she has never thought differently of him. But just because Sansa doesn't 100% recognize her abuse or that Tyrion is not equally a victim the same way like her or that it is not her duty to sleep with him, that doesn't mean it's not abuse. Sansa also only thinks fondly of the Hound, even though he threatened to kill her to the extent that she actually thought she was going to die that night. She doesn't acknowledge, when Joffrey kisses her and gropes her breast, she doesn't acknowledge LF's forced kisses in her thoughts after the initial shock of him kissing her

So my point in Sansa saying Tyrion is kind & having good thoughts of him were that maybe she really did want to marry him. I mean as far as she wanted to marry anyone Tywin was going to force her to. Maybe when Tyrion offers to call it off & let her wed Lancel & she declined it's because she would rather do this than marry an unknown, or worse, a known Lannister. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But since he knows she was forced he is now also bearing the responsibility for what happens next

I disagree. Again, knowing isn't doing & there isn't anything he can do with his knowledge other than offer to call off the marriage, which he does. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

client knows, that a woman is being forced into prostitution, it doesn't matter, that he is not the one, who forces her. If he touches her he becomes guilty of sexual assault

If he touches her with her consent it is no crime. How could it be? If it is then this woman is doomed to only have sex with her clients, that she doesn't want to have sex with because anyone she does actually want to have sex with wouldn't for fear of being prosecuted. 

I agree that if someone has sex with or touches her in a prostitute/client manner then they should be in trouble. 

Westeros standard & law say it is a wife's duty to consummate her marriage. Tyrion took it upon himself to say, no, you don't have to consummate this marriage. How is that not thinking of her? 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sansa and Tyrion are also intellectually and maturity wise far from equals. So it doesn't really matter what sansa is doing or saying and Tyrion should know that since he is 100% aware of her age, and repeatedly tells her she is a child, so we are aware, that he knows, how immature she is. And he has known her since she was 11, when she still 100% believed in the songs, he knows, that didn't just change over night. He says the last thing my wife needs are more songs. He acknowledges her being a child, or child-women. So making the right decision here should have been on him. If you have the knowledge, but still make the wrong decision, the responsibility is yours. A ton of children are manipulated into initiating their own abuse, that doesn't mean, that the person with the power in the situation is no

I would agree 100% with this if we were talking about irl or today. The issue here is the society they live in doesn't think this way. Maturity doesn't matter a whole lot to them as seen by Bronn & Lollys. Age doesn't matter to them other than that the woman has flowered. 

In Tyrion's eyes his wife is consenting to be bedded on their wedding night & as soon as he realizes that isn't what is happening he stops. He doesn't bed her, he doesn't even grope her, he touches her breast. Something that isn't unusual for someone Sansa's age in universe. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

As for the age of consent 12 is still incredibly young even for Westerosi standards

I think this is a little bit of a stretch. I haven't seen anything presented to back the claim that 12 is incredibly young. I would agree it's probably on the young side of acceptable (to them)

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

We only see Dany marry with 13 and even Viserys remarks on how young she is. And then we have of course poor Jeyne, but nobody cares about her well-being. And apparently Dany's mom was also 13, but her husband was young as well. So thats more a tysha tyrion situation

I would imagine there are probably more in Westeros history but you have just given 4 examples of such, so it certainly isn't unheard of. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Lastly it is not Sansa's duty to sleep with him. Never has and never will be. Even if he tries to make her (and maybe himself) believe that

Of course it isn't truly. It's a cruel law & absolutely ridiculous. But it is her duty according to the laws of the time. So Tyrion & Sansa both are going to see it as such. 

 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

fact is that he didn't actively tried to make sure Sansa wasn't being abused, before he walked in to her beating. And that happened exactly in the middle of the books. 7 Tyrion chapters and several months have passed until then, he has been Hand for quite a while.

It is unfortunate that someone didn't stop it but she is no responsibility of his at this point. 

 

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Nagini's Neville & @Mystical, I 100% understand that you might feel personally attacked by some comments made here. I haven’t been participating lately, but I have been reading. And I get it. But I must say I also get what @corbon is saying. And @Lyanna<3Rhaegar and @teej6. In fact, on most topics I agree w/ corbon, L<3R and teej6 100% 99,9% of the time. This is a difficult and delicate topic. My go-to reaction is to side w/ Sansa, she’s so obviously the victim here, and, IMO, very clearly a victim of sexual abuse. Or, better said, what we would see as sexual abuse nowadays. Even in Westeros though, she is very clearly the abused individual here. And it obviously doesn’t help that I am not Tyrion’s biggest fan, to put it mildly. 

But if I manage to detach myself from my it all, I can see how Tyrion is, in a different way, also a victim, and therefore also worthy of empathy and sympathy. 

Do I think he did all he could have done to help Sansa and make her feel safe? Fuck, no. But I think he did do the best he could do, given the circumstances. 

:dunno:

 

Thanks. I agree, she is most certainly the victim. I think where I disagree with some of the others is on to whom she is a victim. 

It is a very touchy subject & it is my instinct to side with Sansa too & I still side with her, just against a different person/people. 

 

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24 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It is a very touchy subject & it is my instinct to side with Sansa too & I still side with her, just against a different person/people. 

I just want to add that I don't think anyone, including me, doesn't side with Sansa here. What happened (or was going to happen) to Sansa might be one of the worst scenes we see in Westeros, worse even than the torture and degradation of Theon. Maybe. Theon at least was an adult to got into that situation through his own bad choices.

I just feel, strongly, that siding with Sansa does not mean that we follow only our feelings and ignore the facts. We must see what actually was written as happening, not what our emotions tell us was written.

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3 minutes ago, corbon said:

I just want to add that I don't think anyone, including me, doesn't side with Sansa here. What happened (or was going to happen) to Sansa might be one of the worst scenes we see in Westeros, worse even than the torture and degradation of Theon. Maybe. Theon at least was an adult to got into that situation through his own bad choices.

I just feel, strongly, that siding with Sansa does not mean that we follow only our feelings and ignore the facts. We must see what actually was written as happening, not what our emotions tell us was written.

I agree 100%

We can & do all agree that Sansa is a victim & it is no fault of her own. It is hard sometimes to remove emotion & only focus on the facts of matter but if we really look at what is written it paints a pretty clear picture imo. 

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[mod] Folks, this is a difficult topic and so far this thread has managed to discuss it with some sensitivity and maturity, but please do not get personal. At the same time, please respect that people have strong feelings about this, as it does touch on real-world issues around consent and abuse. Thank you. [/mod]

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It is simple, Tyrion wanted to be hero in his eyes, Sansa understand (Cersei told her that Tyrion want to be loved) how to play on his feeling of guilt.

Edited by Gvido

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20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But he offered her a choice. Tyrion did. He offered to call off the whole thing & she declined. If she has to be married (and she does because Tywin will force it) she has consented to be married to Tyrion. Not because she wanted to be married to Tyrion, but because she is in a horrible situation & I assume, thinks this is the lesser of two evils. 

So, no she didn't consent to be married, but she did consent to be married to Tyrion. 

If she didn't consent to marry at all. She also can't consent to marry Tyrion. Easy as that. Tyrion knows it's a Non-choice. He knows Sansa doesn't want to marry a Lannister. You don't even have to be very smart to figure out, that a person would not want to marry into a family, that killed her father. Also it is not very convincing to wait until right before the marriage ceremony to give her that choice. No way would have Tywin and Cersei allowed that. And again Tyrion knows. That doesn't come across the way like he really wanted her to chose Lancel, if she truly wanted to, especially given all of the abuse that Sansa has endured until now, he must have known her refusing right before the marriage would have bad consequences for her and she would be afraid of those consequences, therefore not chose Lancel, if she truly wanted to, which she doesn't want anyway. If he truly wanted her to have the choice between himself and Lancel, which is still a non-choice. He would have found a way to communicate with her before the wedding. Again Tyrion also does other things against his father's will.

"“My lady, this is no way to bring you to your wedding." So he even recognizes in the moment, that she was dragged in.

"“You did not ask for this marriage, I know." A verbal admission, that he knows she was forced, just nicer phrased

"No more than I did." painting himself as the victim here along side her (that's guilting her as an impressionable child into believing it is so, it's probably not his intention, but that's the effect it's having ) He is not a victim. He is winning everything here. If he fought like Sansa for it, he would have gotten out of the marriage. As NLG said he gave in surprisingly quickly, the moment Tywin told him you probably will never find another wife or get an estate of your own, he was in. 

 

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Of course it matters how she behaves. The moment she behaves as if what he is doing is bothering her beyond the normal being shy & nervous he stops

Tyrion is no stranger to his world, he knows women are trained to and expected to unconditionally obey their husbands. Sansa did anything she could to fight this marriage beforehand. Tyrion has acknowledged she doesn't want to marry him. She has given him multiple signs. She doesn't kneel for him- it doesn't get any clearer than that. He tugs on her dress sharply three times and she doesn't kneel.

She makes it abundantly clear, that she doesn't want him, taking of her dress doesn't change that.

"As he moved behind her, Sansa felt a sharp tug on her skirt. He wants me to kneel, she realized, blushing. She was mortified. It was not supposed to be this way. She had dreamed of her wedding a thousand times, and always she had pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders, and tenderly kiss her cheek as he leaned forward to fasten the clasp. She felt another tug at her skirt, more insistent. I won’t. Why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine? The dwarf tugged at her a third time."

She is telling him here as plainly as she can, given her situation, surrounded by lions: I do not want you

What more hints does Tyrion need, again he is smart.

 

and She is crying while saying her vows. 

"There were prayers and vows and singing, and tall candles burning, a hundred dancing lights that the tears in her eyes transformed into a thousand. Thankfully no one seemed to notice that she was crying as she stood there,"

Yeah again, no way that Tyrion doesn't notice. 

Now that she is married she believes she has no other choice, but "to be married", this is however no reason for Tyrion, who is older and smarter, to forget the circumstances, to forget she didn't kneel and cried, to forget his father had forced her and take advantage of dutifulness.

We have to interpret her behavior in the context. 

If you are shaking so much you can't open your clothes properly and cover your breasts with your hands on a wedding night, that the father's groom has forced you into, which the groom knows. It probably means more than just normal shyness. Same for saying: I am afraid and wanting to cover yourself with a blanket.

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I'm not arguing Tyrion wouldn't have known she was being forced. He knows, he says it to her (paraphrasing) "you didn't ask for this any more than I did"

If she is forced by someone else to let him touch her. And then he is touching her, when no one is directly forcing him to in the moment, he is to blame as well. 

 

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I take great offense to this. I have never, nor would I ever blame a victim for their circumstances & if you know that isn't what I mean how does it come across that way? 

I've specifically said, repeatedly, that Sansa is the victim & this is not her fault. 

Saying Sansa showed outward signs of assent is NOT in anyway, shape, or form saying any of this is her fault. This is her means for survival, her armor. She has built those walls of courtesy to protect herself & she holds them high. There is nothing to blame her for. She did what she needed to do to survive. I'm only saying that her armor gives the appearance of assent, against her actual feelings & this is what Tyrion is seeing. 

But she has shown Tyrion her feelings multiple times before. As I said before Tyrion knows she is expected to be a dutiful wife now. That's how there society works.

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We may have to agree to disagree here because it matters greatly that she offered to take her clothes off. It matters irt Tyrion's culpability.

 No it doesn't, because he knows she is doing it for the wrong reasons and because she was forced. He knows being dutiful in his world is now expected from her.

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Yes, Tyrion holds the power & tries to give some to her. He asks her if she is ready to take her clothes off. Tyrion knows she was forced to be wed. He also knows he isn't forcing her to bed. She is trying to be a "good girl" & do her duty & what is expected of her but in doing so is giving Tyrion confirmation to continue. 

to the bold: But he should know that given the context and the rules of their world.

Given her truly some power would have been telling her: "You don't have to do this, if you don't want to." 

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Tyrion has not kidnapped her though.

He is part of the group, who did however. And he wouldn't let her go either, because of Jaime. So he unlawfully holds her against her will himself as well. She is just as much his hostage as she is the one of the other Lannisters.

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tyrion knowing is not the same as Tyrion participating. He didn't kill Ned, didn't have bastards with his sibling & pawn them off as the Kings, didn't arrange & force Sansa into a marriage. He had no power to stop any of these things & no one to tell to get help to stop them if he wanted to. The people committing the crimes are the highest law there is in Westeros. 

But Tyrion is participating in a wedding conducted by an unlawful king, who is giving a bride away, that doesn't belong to him. He is participating. 

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tyrion has lawfully married her, under the eyes of the King.

An unlawful king cannot lawfully marry someone, who doesn't belong to him. If Stannis had done it it would be a different story. And also the marriage is not official until it's consummated, so Tyrion does play an active part in planing to take something, that doesn't belong to him.

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So my point in Sansa saying Tyrion is kind & having good thoughts of him were that maybe she really did want to marry him. I mean as far as she wanted to marry anyone Tywin was going to force her to. Maybe when Tyrion offers to call it off & let her wed Lancel & she declined it's because she would rather do this than marry an unknown, or worse, a known Lannister. 

I think IMO it's well establish, that Sansa doesn't want to marry Tyrion, therefore her thinking of him as kind should IMO not be relevant. If you have a choice between all the for you horrible ppl in the world, that you absolutely do not what, it's not a choice. And Tyrion knows she doesn't what a Lannister.

"No words would ever make him fair in her eyes. Or any less a Lannister."

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think there are any laws about being forced against your will, by your King, to wed but if there are then I would agree the wedding is unlawful

He is an unlawful king

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree. Again, knowing isn't doing

But touching is doing.

Quote

 

there isn't anything he can do with his knowledge other than offer to call off the marriage, which he does. 

 

He could have not told her to get in the bed, not allowed to cover herself and touched her. Especially after she tells him she is afraid.

He could have faked the wedding night from the beginning. He could have thought about how horrible this is for her(which he actually does) and planed to fake the wedding night from the beginning, he is smart he is able of scheming, he could have "broken the rules" in that regard like he does with Shae. And chosen to get to know her first. He had enough time to think about that ahead.

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If he touches her with her consent it is no crime. How could it be? If it is then this woman is doomed to only have sex with her clients, that she doesn't want to have sex with because anyone she does actually want to have sex with wouldn't for fear of being prosecuted. 

But she can't give consent, because her pimp is forcing her to "consent", if she doesn't it will have consequences for her, not from the client, but from the pimp. And if a client knows that, he is committing a crime by touching her. And I'm talking about a scenario here where prostitution is legal. And also Tyrion knows she was forced to "consent". 

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tyrion took it upon himself to say, no, you don't have to consummate this marriage. How is that not thinking of her? 

He never said that though. Only after he touched her. Telling her she can get rid of her courtesy armor is not the same as telling her you don't have to consummate. 

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I would agree 100% with this if we were talking about irl or today. The issue here is the society they live in doesn't think this way. Maturity doesn't matter a whole lot to them as seen by Bronn & Lollys. Age doesn't matter to them other than that the woman has flowered. 

The difference is however, that Tyrion notices every step along the way, that she is a child. If he didn't do that, I wouldn't hold it against him. So he is ahead of a lot of others in his culture. He knows about her maturity level. 

And there are others, who think the same. Ned says Sansa is to young to be engaged at 11.

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Of course it isn't truly. It's a cruel law & absolutely ridiculous. But it is her duty according to the laws of the time. So Tyrion & Sansa both are going to see it as such.

No, because this wedding was conducted by an unlawful king. Something that he knows, but she doesn't.

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It is unfortunate that someone didn't stop it but she is no responsibility of his at this point. 

I'd argue against that. She is his hostage. He wanted to keep her, because of Jaime. He is the Hand of the king. He has just as much responsibility for her well-being as Cersei does, if not more given his position in the government.

 

Btw I know you all think Sansa is a victim here. And I have absolutely no problem with disagreeing. I had however a big problem with one specific thing, that corbon said. Which I thought was beyond messed up. But my complaint about it was removed so whatever. Otherwise no problem with disagreeing. This is a fictional world. I don't think you are bad people just, because you have a different opinion. But I think some posters maybe thinking that, which is annoying, because you always have to defend yourself against something you don't even imply.  

I however think it's wrong to label a reader's attitude, based on their opinion on a fictional character and compare it then to a very serious real life issue, that has absolutely nothing to do with the text. That's the only thing I have been upset about. Other than that I'm just arguing my points defending my opinion. And if you give me good arguments I'll change it, like I have done many times before. 

I just wanted to say, that you are not a bad person, if you can't feel any empathy (0%) for certain people. That doesn't mean you wish harm on them or any human beings and is certainly not an indicator that this attitude will lead you to commit real life crimes.

Would you tell Sandor Clegane he should have empathy with his older brother?(not asking you personally) Some people had to endure abuse themselves and therefore can't and do not want to empathize with certain people and IMO nobody has the right to tell them they have to otherwise their attitude is evil. And usually society has enough empathy for predators anyway (they usually get a lot of therapy for example, while the victims get none), it's usually the victims, that proportionally to the crime committed don't get enough empathy. So for me it's totally fine, that I let others have empathy for the predators and if I have any left after giving mine to all of the victims in the world, I can give that then to the predators of the world, but usually there isn't any left, because to many victims.

But I also don't blame ppl for empathizing with predators, so I'd like to also not be blamed, if I don't.

But for the record I actually do have a lot of empathy for Tyrion.

 

Also Sansa never offers to take of her clothing, she asks him, if she should undress underlining, that Tyrion is an authority figure here and he says yes.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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Because we don't have Tyrion's point of view, we also don't know, if her shuddering, when he touches her is the reason for why he stops. Since he also doesn't stop, when she tells him she is afraid or wants to cover herself.

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Tyrion did have a choice to not marry Sansa but he married her because he wanted a castle and a beautiful wife and Sansa was his only chance to get those. His "oh it wasn't my doing and if you don't want this I will totally call it of" was just a stunt he pulled to put all the blame on his father. If he actually did care about her opinion he would've talked to her sooner but he didn't. He waited till the last moment to talk to her knowing full well that she will go along with it because she was a frightened 12 year old hostage that was constantly punished by his psychotic nephew for disobedience.

I don't hate Tyrion and although I feel sorry for him for the way he was treated by his father and sister I have no sympathy for him when it comes to his marriage to Sansa. He brought it all on himself when he agreed to marry a helpless child hostage to usurp her ancestral home after they get rid of her brother.

 

Edited by winter daughter

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7 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Tyrion did have a choice to not marry Sansa

I don't think anyone has argued he didn't. He would likely have faced consequences for that choice but he could have made it. 

8 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

but he married her because he wanted a castle and a beautiful wife and Sansa was his only chance to get those.

Who doesn't want that? 

9 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

His "oh it wasn't my doing and if you don't want this I will totally call it of" was just a stunt he pulled to put all the blame on his father

Got any evidence for that? Because other wise it's pure assumption on your part. The text contradicts this. 

10 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

If he actually did care about her opinion he would've talked to her sooner but he didn't

He explains why he doesn't talk to her sooner & it has nothing to do with not caring about her opinion. Again, if you have no evidence to support it then it is assumption & when the text contradicts it, it is false. 

11 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

He waited till the last moment to talk to her knowing full well that she will go along with it considering she was a frightened 12 year old hostage that was constantly punished by his psychotic nephew for disobedience

How would talking to her sooner change any of that? If he spoke to her as soon as he found out she still would have been a frightened 12 year old hostage that had been abused by Joffrey. 

13 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

He brought it all on himself when he agreed to marry a helpless child hostage to usurp her ancestral home after they get rid of her brother

Brought what on himself? He didn't suffer any consequences for marrying Sansa. 

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24 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Got any evidence for that? Because other wise it's pure assumption on your part. The text contradicts this.  

The fact that he could've refused his father's offer but didn't because of his own selfish reasons but acted like he had no choice but to marry her is an evidence.

24 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He explains why he doesn't talk to her sooner & it has nothing to do with not caring about her opinion. Again, if you have no evidence to support it then it is assumption & when the text contradicts it, it is false. 

 

31 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

How would talking to her sooner change any of that? If he spoke to her as soon as he found out she still would have been a frightened 12 year old hostage that had been abused by Joffrey. 

You are right it wouldn't have changed anything but again if  he actually cared about her opinion he wouldn't have accepted his father's offer in the first place. He surly knew he was not her (or anyone's)  type being a noseless ugly dwarf and all. But accepted Tywin's offer because he wanted a pretty wife and a big castle, and no my problem is not that he wanted those but the fact that he married a helpless child bride to get them.

46 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Brought what on himself? He didn't suffer any consequences for marrying Sansa. 

Humiliation before the whole court and physical and emotional rejection by Sansa.

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9 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

The fact that he could've refused his father's offer but didn't because of his own selfish reasons but acted like he had no choice but to marry her is an evidence

Your claim was that he wasn't sincere when he told Sansa he would call off the wedding. Him acting on his "own selfish reasons" isn't evidence that he wouldn't have called it off. 

How did he act as if he had no choice? Doesn't telling Sansa he would call off the wedding indicate he does have a choice? Since he is saying this to Sansa it doesn't seem to me that he is trying to act as if he has no choice. 

12 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

You are right it wouldn't have changed anything but again if  he actually cared about her opinion he wouldn't have accepted his father's offer in the first place

And again what evidence is there for that? I suppose maybe it is your opinion but there is nothing in the text that suggests talking to her sooner would have indicated a greater regard for her feelings. Nor do her feelings have to be his priority. He clearly does have regard for her feelings even though it doesn't have to be his priority. 

He did actually care about her opinion thats why he offered to call it off. 

14 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

He surly knew he was not her (or anyone's)  type being a noseless ugly dwarf and all

Are we to assume that the only thing that matters in a husband is his looks? Should he refuse any marriage possibility he is ever given because he is not handsome? That seems pretty ridiculous. Ugly people get married every day. 

15 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

But accepted Tywin's offer because he wanted a pretty wife and a big castle, and no my problem is not that he wanted those but the fact that he married a helpless child bride to get them.

He states what he actually wants and that is a companion, a normal marriage. 

In universe she isn't a child bride. 

16 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Humiliation before the whole court

When she wouldn't kneel? 

Are you proposing that Tyrion's punishment for "marrying a helpless, child bride that he cared nothing for her feelings all for his own selfish reasons of wanting WF" (seems pretty ridiculous laid out all together doesn't it?) Was to be a little embarrassed? That doesn't seem like much of a punishment. 

18 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

physical and emotional rejection by Sansa.

So, according to your reasoning he earned this physical & emotional rejection from Sansa by being ugly, noseless, dwarf, & for agreeing with Sansa to not call of the wedding? 

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On 13. Februar 2020 at 6:44 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I get what you are saying & I probably had poor word choice there. I'm just not sure how else to put it. All I mean to be saying is that she was given a choice of marrying Tyrion or Tyrion calling it off & her being made to marry someone else, potentially Lancel & she declined the offer for him to call it off. 

That gives him a bit credit, but given, that she could not chose option 1. No marriage at all 2. Marriage to a non Lannister. I still stand by my word, given that she was a political abused prisoner this is can not be considered consenting to marrying Tyrion, not in their world and not from Tyrion's perspective.

On 13. Februar 2020 at 6:44 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Why? He couldn't speak to her before that without going against his family, he explains that to her. Had he brought this to Sansa before then & the Tyrells succeeded in marrying her off before the Lannisters got to the consequences could be monumental for Tyrion. He knows what his family is but that doesn't mean he wants to cause their downfall or actively plot against them. Their well-being is directly related to his own. If they fall, he falls. If they have nothing, he has nothing & if a greater power swoops in to destroy them they are not going to differentiate Tyrion from the rest of them even if he tried to warn Sansa ahead of time. 

 

On 13. Februar 2020 at 6:44 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tywin & Cersei would have no choice if Tyrion refuses to go through with the marriage. They may be angry, there may be consequences (likely there would be so the offer it noble) but it wouldn't be Sansa refusing, it would be Tyrion. 

I don't think he did want her to choose Lancel & I don't really understand what difference that would make anyway. I don't think there is any evidence to say he did or didn't want her to choose Lancel. He offers her the choice. 

It wouldn't be her refusing right before the marriage, it would be Tyrion. 

He did find a way to communicate before the wedding. That is precisely what he did. 

I'm not saying he never does anything against his fathers will, he does & that's further evidence that he would have called off this marriage if Sansa wanted him to against his fathers will. There is quite a difference between going against what his father has said & plotting against his family though. Losing Sansa could have great consequences for the Lannisters - Tyrion refusing to marry her, knowing she would be wed to another Lannister does not. 

I did not consider the Tyrell issue. That's a good point. So I give Tyrion credit for offering her the only choice, he could give her at the only time it was possible for him, without hurting his family and consequently hurting himself. He definitely puts his own well-being and that of his family before hers, but only a few people (Ned Stark, Jon Snow etc) wouldn't. And I still think, that based on the abuse, that Sansa suffered Tyrion could have known, that she would not dare to answer honestly here, if she'd truly had preferred Lancel. But he did everything he could.

 

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He did actually care about her opinion thats why he offered to call it off.  

There is no evidence that his offer was sincere.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He states what he actually wants and that is a companion, a normal marriage. 

Except his marriage with Sansa wouldn't have been normal considering their families were at war and she was a 12 year old hostage but he went through with it anyway because as I said he wanted a pretty wife and a castle.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

In universe she isn't a child bride

She is. Tyrion himself acknowledges it.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Are we to assume that the only thing that matters in a husband is his looks? Should he refuse any marriage possibility he is ever given because he is not handsome? That seems pretty ridiculous. Ugly people get married every day.  

I never said that. the looks is not the only thing that matters but it does matter especially to someone like Tyrion that rejected Penny because she is a dwarf and not his usual beautiful and normal height type of woman.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

When she wouldn't kneel? 

Are you proposing that Tyrion's punishment for "marrying a helpless, child bride that he cared nothing for her feelings all for his own selfish reasons of wanting WF" (seems pretty ridiculous laid out all together doesn't it?) Was to be a little embarrassed? That doesn't seem like much of a punishment.  

I never said that either. Getting humiliated and rejected were not  punishments but consequences of his selfish choice.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So, according to your reasoning he earned this physical & emotional rejection from Sansa by being ugly, noseless, dwarf, & for agreeing with Sansa to not call of the wedding?  

Nope. as I said above, it was a consequence of his selfish choice.

I'd appreciate it if you'd stop putting words in my mouth.

 

 

 

Edited by winter daughter

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On 13. Februar 2020 at 6:44 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree. This does nothing to paint him as a victim. He is letting Sansa know he didn't ask for this either, this is not his doings, he did not arrange this, etc. 

Where is the evidence that this is him painting himself as a victim? Where is the evidence that it's guilting her into believing it is so?

He isn't guilting her into anything, he is telling her the truth. If she believes it is so then good because it is. 

He says (paraphrasing here):" You didn't ask for that, no more, than I did." Which is not true. He did ask for it more, than she did, since by his own admission: he wants WF and he wants Sansa. 

By saying "no more" he puts himself on the same level as her. Communicating to her: I am a victim, just as much as you are. The same way as he does later, when he says "we must do our duty", it might be his duty towards House Lannister, but it is definitely not her duty, given she forcefully married by a not rightful king and her father, who she actually belongs to was murdered under false claims by the same false king. And given a marriage is not finalized, if not consummated, Tyrion is playing a role himself in unlawfully marrying her, by initially wanting to consummate.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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