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Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

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12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Now you can go another round of this, but you have failed to provide evidence it's the norm or common, both with actual examples,

 

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, Margaret Beaufort is a famous example, but she also was an exception. There are also examples of royal weddings between child brides and grooms where the consummation was delayed until 16-17 and the bride had her first child at 18.

Nobody has suggested that marriage at Sansa's age is normal or commonplace.  What is being stated is that it is permissible and acceptable, especially if there is a specific reason for it.  In this case, Tywin is anxious to prevent Sansa from being used in marriage plots by others.  Otherwise, I expect he would be content to let her wait until older.

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1 minute ago, Nevets said:

Nobody has suggested that marriage at Sansa's age is normal or commonplace.  What is being stated is that it is permissible and acceptable, especially if there is a specific reason for it.  In this case, Tywin is anxious to prevent Sansa from being used in marriage plots by others.  Otherwise, I expect he would be content to let her wait until older.

some people have though. Actually quite a few ASOIF readers think 12 is Westerosi 18

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1 minute ago, Nevets said:

 

Nobody has suggested that marriage at Sansa's age is normal or commonplace.  What is being stated is that it is permissible and acceptable, especially if there is a specific reason for it.  In this case, Tywin is anxious to prevent Sansa from being used in marriage plots by others.  Otherwise, I expect he would be content to let her wait until older.

Actually plenty of posters in this thread have argued it's normal, it's Westerosi culture, and that we are wrong to consider it perverse with our modern morals. And to this I stated it's not the norm or Westerosi culture. Rhaegar<3Lyanna then tried to argue over it, from which I take she does consider it normal in Westeros (and in fact she did try to pick a "fit to be wedded and bedded" part of the SSM quote of George to argue exactly that). 

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3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Just have gotten your period is not well into puberty. And even today getting pregnant with 12-13 is not healthy and dangerous for mother and child. In the Middle Ages they did not marry that early. Because of the many deaths in childbed also not because they hit puberty on average 2 years later.

 

As I was trying to imply, physical health is the issue here. If she's physically able to (safely) have a child, then consummating the marriage would be entirely normal. A physiological response to this would also be entirely normal. 

Now, the rest of your post is certainly worth addressing but I'm not going to because I don't know how this new version of the forum works. I do not understand why I can't just view a normal dedicated post window that displays the forum code and gives a preview button. The rest of you are breaking quotes up, so how do you do it?

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3 minutes ago, Sourjapes said:

As I was trying to imply, physical health is the issue here. If she's physically able to (safely) have a child, then consummating the marriage would be entirely normal. A physiological response to this would also be entirely normal. 

But she is not, because no twelve year old is physically able to safely have a child. Not even today. So not even to seak of in the Middle Ages, where adult women die in childbed all the time already. I don't know where you get the idea from, that she would be.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Many is "many".

Yep that's what I said 

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You'd be over the moon if George said "many girls of 12 & 13 are bedded"

Lol why? 

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You cannot just pick one statement and ignore all the extra clarifications and stipulations and addendums of George's statements. He added a "however" and then said "many men wait" and why they wait. What he says is a built argument

Agreed, which is why I posted the stipulations & the addendums to the arguments you didn't speak on in the last post.

13 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:
  • boys and girls are of age at 16.
  • but girls have this in-between grey zone where their bodies have flowered and so they're in this "in besteen stage" of being a child and woman, and these are "maidens". George referred to it as ambiguous, not somethign that is clear-cut.

Yep, agreed.

Just to clarify though he didn't reference "maidens" as being ambiguous, that was pretty clear; a flowered girl. But yeah, the flowered girls before 16 are part child, part woman, as you say "in-between"

15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

when George uses the phrase "when flowered fit for wedding and bedding" he uses it together with "in older traditions

Right which is what Westeros is based on right? I don't know why he would reference that if it was to say but that's not the case in universe. 

17 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

then he speaks of Westerosi "general" wedding culture. Here he talks that girls can be made to wed before they flowered specifically.

  • It is considered perverse to bed girls before they flowered.
  • These marriages are rare, even if not consummated.

 

Yep, agreed again. I would only note though that specifying that it is perverse to bed a girl not flowered means it's not perverse to bed a girl who is flowered. Otherwise there would be no reason to say it. He would say to bed a girl, flowered or not, before the age of 16, is considered perverse. 

19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Then he stipulates that such matches are generally postponed until the girl has flowered. So his "in general" stipulation applies to the betrothals made for girls so young they haven't flowered yet

Yep. 

21 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He then adds that maidens "may" be wedded and bedded

  • HOWEVER EVEN THERE many men wait until their wives are 15 to 16 before bedding them

 

Exactly. They are allowed to be wedded & bedded. So it's acceptable, it happens, but many men choose (not because they have to according to law or custom) to wait until the bride is 15 or 16 because of the risks of child birth (not because it's perverse or unacceptable)

24 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Nothing what he says in that SSM should be looked at separately, and the conclusion that many men will wait is the significant declaration and conclusion of what George says here. Nope, to interprete George's answer here as "it's Westerosi common culture to wed and bed a girl of 12 who flowered" is imo pure denial of what George tries to say here

Certainly, as it is to say it's rare or hardly happens. 

Because George doesn't say that either. 

He also says Highborn girls tend to flower earlier than low born girls & so tend to be married earlier as well. 

Then he says, there are plenty of exceptions. Plenty would be much like many. 

28 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Now you can go another round of this, but you have failed to provide evidence it's the norm or common

Well I haven't asserted it's the norm or common, I've asserted it isn't rare & it happens.

29 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

both with actual examples, whereas we can provide Tyrion's own opinion (it's perverse), 

That GRRM refutes. 

30 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Tywin's own recommendation to wait several more years

 

31 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

as well as stipulating why he wants Sansa basically raped only at her wedding night (because this is a swordpoint marriage where the risk of annullment is sky high if Sansa ever manages to escape)

He says to wait several more years after the initial bedding. Not to wait to bed her at all, but yeah he wants it done because he wants the marriage final, uncontested, consummated, etc.

33 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

any of the actual examples where men didn't wait are rapists or the fathers are so warped they want to wed their daughter to her brother (often sickos who don't care for their sisters). 

Sure, I mean this could be the case in every single one of the beddings that happen before age 15, but you would think if that were the case or even the case most of the time, George would have noted that when being asked about this specific subject, but maybe not. We don't know the details of all of the beddings to say but it's possible. 

35 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

If you fail to see this we should end with agree to disagree

The only thing I fail to see is how your assertion that it is "rare" is true. 

We can agree to disagree if you would like though.

36 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But you don't have a leg to stand on to make the claim it's rare in Westerosi culture

Ftfy. 

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23 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar We have to consider here, when he says "maidens", that does not necessarily mean "as soon as a girl is a maiden", a 16 year old is also a maiden, Brienne is also still a maiden. 

Yeah absolutely. He isn't excluding younger maidens either though. 

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11 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

some people have though. Actually quite a few ASOIF readers think 12 is Westerosi 18

 

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually plenty of posters in this thread have argued it's normal, it's Westerosi culture, and that we are wrong to consider it perverse with our modern morals. And to this I stated it's not the norm or Westerosi culture. Rhaegar<3Lyanna then tried to argue over it, from which I take she does consider it normal in Westeros (and in fact she did try to pick a "fit to be wedded and bedded" part of the SSM quote of George to argue exactly that). 

If I erred, I apologize.  I haven't paid as close attention as I should have.  Too many really long posts.  I myself have suggested only that it is legal and acceptable, if a bit unusual.  If he had consummated, Tyrion would receive no condemnation, at least in world, on the basis of age.

And as explained, there are clear reasons to do it in this case.

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12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually plenty of posters in this thread have argued it's normal, it's Westerosi culture, and that we are wrong to consider it perverse with our modern morals. And to this I stated it's not the norm or Westerosi culture. Rhaegar<3Lyanna then tried to argue over it, from which I take she does consider it normal in Westeros (and in fact she did try to pick a "fit to be wedded and bedded" part of the SSM quote of George to argue exactly that). 

What you stated is wrong. If Sansa was a pre-pubescent child, having not flowered, then it would considered perverse in Westoros. She is flowered and if I'm not mistaken, only about 2 and a half years, or less, from her age of majority. Many doesn't mean most or even half, it just means many. It's a vague statement. I think we can safely assume that most husbands wait until it is safe for their wife to bear children. That would be the logical thing to do. 

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4 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But she is not, because no twelve year old is physically able to safely have a child. Not even today. So not even to seak of in the Middle Ages, where adult women die in childbed all the time already. I don't know where you get the idea from, that she would be.

Exactly. More, girls can have their menarch and not actually be fertile yet. While their womb is starting to create a linement that sheds once in a while (it's most often very irregelular the first half year at least), it's not even certain they are releasing eggs yet. It may take up to a year even between menarch and a girl actually being able to conceive. Though it's also so individual no girl should take this as "oh, it's safe to have unprotected sex for the first year".

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15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually plenty of posters in this thread have argued it's normal, it's Westerosi culture, and that we are wrong to consider it perverse with our modern morals. And to this I stated it's not the norm or Westerosi culture. Rhaegar<3Lyanna then tried to argue over it, from which I take she does consider it normal in Westeros (and in fact she did try to pick a "fit to be wedded and bedded" part of the SSM quote of George to argue exactly that). 

No, you stated & what I argued against was that it is rare. 

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2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Agreed, which is why I posted the stipulations & the addendums to the arguments you didn't speak on in the last post.

I didn't need to, since I had quoted the SSM in full almost.

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8 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But she is not, because no twelve year old is physically able to safely have a child. Not even today. So not even to seak of in the Middle Ages, where adult women die in childbed all the time already. I don't know where you get the idea from, that she would be.

I refer her being thirteen going on fourteen and you shouldn't speak in absolutes like that. People mature at different rates, especially given different environments. I don't recall if it is stated in the text or not, but I would assume that Sansa was examined by a maester or septa and cleared for child birth. Otherwise this issue would surely have been brought up. Sansa is no good as a political tool if she dies in childbirth giving birth to a dead fetus. The Lannisters have an interest in making sure she's healthy and that Tyrion doesn't kill her by getting her pregnant. 

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4 minutes ago, Sourjapes said:

What you stated is wrong. If Sansa was a pre-pubescent child, having not flowered, then it would considered perverse in Westoros. She is flowered and if I'm not mistaken, only about 2 and a half years, or less, from her age of majority. Many doesn't mean most or even half, it just means many. It's a vague statement. I think we can safely assume that most husbands wait until it is safe for their wife to bear children. That would be the logical thing to do. 

She wasn't even 13 yet, so over 3 years away from her age of majority.

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Just now, sweetsunray said:

She wasn't even 13 yet, so over 3 years away from her age of majority.

The wiki says she was thirteen and thirteen is what I remember. She's going on fourteen in Dance and that's less than a year after the wedding. I don't have the text in front of me. 

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2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I didn't need to, since I had quoted the SSM in full almost.

Gotcha ;)

My claims have been & remain to be: 

Sansa, at 12, is probably on the young side of what is considered acceptable. It is practiced, it does happen & it is accepted. It isn't rare or perverse (according to them) 

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2 minutes ago, Sourjapes said:

The wiki says she was thirteen and thirteen is what I remember. She's going on fourteen in Dance and that's less than a year after the wedding. I don't have the text in front of me. 

Yeah she was going to be 13 "when the moon turns" so a month or less away from her 13th nameday

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19 minutes ago, Sourjapes said:

I do not understand why I can't just view a normal dedicated post window that displays the forum code and gives a preview button.

You mean breaking a post up like this, right? 

19 minutes ago, Sourjapes said:

The rest of you are breaking quotes up, so how do you do it?

Go to the end of the part where you want to break the post and hit enter twice. I mean, that’s how it works on iPad and Android phone, but I assume it would be the same on a computer/whatever device. 

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4 minutes ago, Sourjapes said:

The wiki says she was thirteen and thirteen is what I remember. She's going on fourteen in Dance and that's less than a year after the wedding. I don't have the text in front of me. 

Tyrion asks her age. She says she will turn 13 that year. In other words she's 12.

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10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 

Tyrion asks her age. She says she will turn 13 that year. In other words she's 12.

The wiki misleading then. She's very young, but the point stands; if she can safely deliver a child then Tyrion consummating the marriage wouldn't be considered perverse and certainly wouldn't make him a pedophile . Again, as others have pointed out, she has flowered. 

 

@kissdbyfire 

Doesn't work for me but then I can't send messages now either. The "new" forum design probably just isn't compatible with my browser. 

Edited by Sourjapes

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