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Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

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1 minute ago, corbon said:

Yes, that was an aside, not the risk factor.

Because thast the trciky part. Lying about it can cause a lot more trouble than the actual (in)action

At that point he'd already faced up to that part of the risk.

But lying and being caught lying is often worse than what you are actually caught lying about.

If that even occurred to him, maybe.
Maybe that would have been better. Maybe not. I can;t tell, and I don't think any objective observer can.
But the fact remains that Sansa gave him very possible signal to go ahead, until the point where she didn't, and he stopped.

What is the very possible signal here? because she also beforehand already told him she was afraid. Was that not a Signal?

Or when she wanted to cover herself with the blanket?

What was so different about right before he stopped. she had told him after all she was afraid- that was no sign to go ahead and right after that he told her to get in the bed and didn't allow her a blanket.

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What characters say it's perverse? 

When Tyrion learns of her age and considers her physically and thinks of her as a child and is uncomfortable about desiring her.

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You are changing the provisions to fit your assertion. You are concluding things that are not stated. It is only rare per your claims, not per Georges. 

I'm not. George built the whole argument. If this and this and that. He includes marriages and flowering amongst non-nobles. This befits the question he answered:

Quote

"The nature of the relationship between Sandor and Sansa has been a hot topic on Revanshe's board. Sansa's youth has been one focus of the discussion. What is the general Westerosi view as to romantic or sexual relationships involving a girl of Sansa's age and level of physical maturity?"

The question is not about "girls of nobility of 12-13" but the general Westerosi view of girls of 12-13 who have flowered.

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4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, "off age" does not mean flowering. This is made clear because Catelyn says "when both are off age". Arya's bethrothed won't flower after all, but only will be off age when he's 16.

Where do you get 16 from?

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Jon considers it young.

No one else though

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

When Tyrion learns of her age and considers her physically and thinks of her as a child and is uncomfortable about desiring her

That's one character & your assertions was characters - plural. Let's say for a minute Tyrion is trying to express that in his eyes, this is perverse (something I disagree with because being uncomfortable about it, something he doesn't state either, is not the same as it being perverse) but that is one character vs all the other characters who don't say it's perverse, plus GRRM saying it's not perverse. So if Tyrion is indeed trying to say that it is his opinion but not the normal custom or general opinion.

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The question is not about "girls of nobility of 12-13" but the general Westerosi view of girls of 12-13 who have flowered.

That is the question but directly before that it is stated that the question is being asked in regards to Sansa (a high born girl) & Sandor. 

Still he never states or implies it's rare for a flowered girl of Sansa's age to be wedded & bedded. 

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2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Where do you get 16 from?

Being "off age" = "legal adult" = 16 in Westeros.

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No one else though

We don't have any else's thoughts aside from Theon's who's Reek.

We do have mountain clans joining Stannis for the Ned's girl, and we know that several lords and Lady Dustin aren't happy with it, especially with Ramsay using her so much.

Also Jeyne Poole is almost 4 at the time. That's still too young, but there is a difference of over 2 years with the real Arya, and it doesn't seem most lords and ladies seem to know Arya's real age (10 and not yet flowered).

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2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Still he never states or implies it's rare for a flowered girl of Sansa's age to be wedded & bedded. 

He doesn't need to, because it's built up explanation.

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3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

all the other characters who don't say it's perverse

Who are all the other characters who say it's not perverse?

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

plus GRRM saying it's not perverse.

Where does GRRM say "it's not perverse".

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Just now, sweetsunray said:

He doesn't need to, because it's built up explanation.

Yes it's a built up explanation that does not come to the conclusion that this is rare. For that to be the conclusion it would need to be stated as such & it isn't. 

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Just now, sweetsunray said:

Who are all the other characters who say it's not perverse?

Every one of them that don't say it. Pick any character other than Tyrion. 

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Where does GRRM say "it's not perverse

Where he states that bedding a girl before she is flowered is perverse. Being flowered is the deciding factor there, that's where the line is drawn. Before flowering is perverse, after is not. 

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10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right but offering to disrobe, stating openly she is willing to do her duty & not giving any words of dissent is giving him the go-ahead

We already discussed this. If she did it in a vacuum, yes, but she doesn't. And Tyrion is aware of the context. he knows she is just doing it out of a duty that isn't her duty at all. And he knowingly lies about it "lets do out duty." If we don't agree about it now, I'm afraid us writing the same thing back and forth won't change that. Joffrey is not the rightful king, he is only a bastard, him giving her away is unlawful, she belongs to Robb.

" “So, now that we are of one purpose, we ought have no more secrets between us. You say Joffrey had Lord Eddard killed, Varys dismissed Ser Barristan, and Littlefinger gifted us with Lord Slynt. Who murdered Jon Arryn?” Cersei yanked her hand back. “How should I know?” “The grieving widow in the Eyrie seems to think it was me. Where did she come by that notion, I wonder?” “I’m sure I don’t know. That fool Eddard Stark accused me of the same thing. He hinted that Lord Arryn suspected or … well, believed …” “That you were fucking our sweet Jaime?” She slapped him."

A Clash of Kings, Tyrion 1

After that he wants to know everything about Robert's death. If he had any questions about Joffrey, he would have still asked them. And Robert had black hair after all, if even Ned could figure it out it is an easy task for Tyrion, who anyway always had known of his siblings' relationship. He probably had always known, that all of Cersei's children are Jaime's just based on looks.

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9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes it's a built up explanation that does not come to the conclusion that this is rare. For that to be the conclusion it would need to be stated as such & it isn't. 

No he doesn't need to "conclude" that. It's inferred with the many who wait until 15-16 of the few weddings pre-legal-adult that come about from rare but not uncommon pre-buscent bethrothals amongst nobility.

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14 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

What is the very possible signal here? because she also beforehand already told him she was afraid. Was that not a Signal?

Every possible. Typo.

When she turned down his offer to call it off if she would prefer a different Lannister and said she would do her duty.
When she told him that she recognised and remembered he was kinder to her than the other Lannisters (ie, if it must be a Lannister, best it be you). 
When she stands up to Joffrey under the shield of her husband Tyrion.
When she offers to him to dance, something she didn't need to do - a signal it must appear to him thats she's trying to make the best of it.
When she three times offers to disrobe, unprompted.
When she argues that she is fit for bedding after he calls her a child.

 

He is afraid too. But she has said she will so her duty. Her choice, her assent, has been stated aloud to him. He can;t simply assume her fear is worth more than her conscious assent, until it demonstrably overcomes her conscious assent, whereupon he immediately stops.
 

14 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Or when she wanted to cover herself with the blanket?

That would have been easier for both of them, but led to a different result.

14 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

What was so different about right before he stopped. she had told him after all she was afraid- that was no sign to go ahead and right after that he told her to get in the bed and didn't allow her a blanket.

Fear is not enough. It is not uncommon in even a willing, loving bride. It does not outweigh her active assent and active indications to move forward.

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9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Every one of them that don't say it. Pick any character other than Tyrion. 

So, you're trying to prove a positive with absense of evidence, despite the fact that even Tywin, who doesn't care really, lets Tyrion know it's absolutely normal for Tyrion to wait several years before having a sexual relationship with Sansa?

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12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Being "off age" = "legal adult" = 16 in Westeros.

(Of age. One f in of) 

Im pretty sure 16 is just for ruling.

So we have Myrcella not getting married to call off her bedding, like Sansa. 

In contrast is fArya, Sansa, RedWidow and Walders daughters

Theres enough cases for both to be thinking one is normal and the other is abnormal

 

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10 minutes ago, corbon said:

Fear is not enough. 

Oh yeah, fear is enough. Especially under the circumstances. But You are right, it's not enough for Tyrion. I really don't think we should continue this, it absolutely leads to nothing. Maybe you could find another debating partner.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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13 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No he doesn't need to "conclude" that. It's inferred with the many who wait until 15-16 of the few weddings pre-legal-adult that come about from rare but not uncommon pre-buscent bethrothals amongst nobility.

Thats several levels of untruth in one statement. 

First, there is no such inferral. You assume beyond the evidence.
Second, we are talking about pubescent marriages here. Pre-pubescent consummation is agreed by all to be perverse, so bringing to up at all is irrelevant and unnecessary and appears to be an attempt to prejudice the subject.
Of Pubescent marriages the simple fact is that many, not all, not nearly all, not necessarily even most, just many, follow certain conduct. This does not create a cultural paradigm - you'd need 'most', or better, 'nearly all', for that.

Edited by corbon

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7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No he doesn't need to "conclude" that. It's inferred with the many who wait until 15-16 of the few weddings pre-legal-adult that come about from rare but not uncommon pre-buscent bethrothals amongst nobility.

He states pre-pubescent weddings are rare. He does not state bedding a flowered girl is rare. 

Also if something is rare, it is by definition, uncommon. 

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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Oh yeah, fear is enough. I really don't think we should continue this, it absolutely leads to nothing. Maybe you could find another debating partner.

So Sansa was ready to rape Tyrion? No, I know you don't think that, neither do I. nor does anyone. I'm demonstrating the logical flaw in your statement, no more.
But that is the exact result of "fear is enough". Tyrion was afraid, Sansa saw it. She was still consciously choosing to go ahead at that stage.

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8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

So, you're trying to prove a positive with absense of evidence, despite the fact that even Tywin, who doesn't care really, lets Tyrion know it's absolutely normal for Tyrion to wait several years before having a sexual relationship with Sansa?

Nope, I'm saying you have one, partial, arguable, assertion that it is perverse. We have no other in universe claims of such, even if we consider this one, against George saying it isn't. 

Tywin saying it would be fine, after the initial bedding to wait a few years does absolutely nothing to state it's perverse. He is encouraging Tyrion to bed her initially which indicates he doesn't think it's perverse. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Where he states that bedding a girl before she is flowered is perverse. Being flowered is the deciding factor there, that's where the line is drawn. Before flowering is perverse, after is not. 

That's not what he states. It doesn't follow that because he affirms that bedding an unflowered girl is perverse that by definition bedding a just-flowered maiden is not perverse. It is an ambiguous situation. That is his opening clarification about underage girls that have flowered.

All will depend on the actual age of flowering, the situation and circumstances and the individual characters involved. For example George has several highborn maidens who were voluntarily deflowered at the age of 13-14 without being wed, often with a guy who's barely an adult himself at the time: Asha, Arianne, etc... which given the pairing in the question should be accounted for to have been in the back of George's mind when answering the question. 

He will likely have Arya and Sansa engage into a sexual relationship at a very young age to our modern world views, especially with the drop of the 5 year gap, but those would be mutual consentual relationships with a guy of their own choice, likely even outside of marriage. Are these hypothetical men or boys to be regarded as perverts? No. Are adult men getting off on a forcibly wed and raped maidens of 12 and 13 who cannot wait for 2 years before bedding them perverts? Yes.

 

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