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Alyn Oakenfist

Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I see what you mean. For me there is just a big difference between being immature and being cruel. Robb was immature, when sleeping with Jeyne, Sansa when being in love with Joffrey. Of course they also had a reason to be immature, because of their age.

There are differences, the most glaring is the age, calling Robb a manchild would make no sense, since he is a child. But adults behaving like kids usually has more dangerous consequences because they act on impulse but can rationalize it far better and they had a very difficult time acknowledging their acts.

 

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Why did he take it so far then however? He must have been crazy deluded to think she was not afraid, she even tells him and he still molests her.

Maybe he didn't. Maybe Sansa's POV suffers from some Rashomon effect. To those who don't know the Rashomon effect occurs when people perceive the exact same thing differently due to their emotional state as well as previous biases. We actually do have a clear example of a Rashmon effect in the discussion between Sam and Jon at the beginning of AFFC and ADWD, with us seeing the conversation from both point of views. While the general outline of the conversation are the same, the details and the focus is wildly different. So maybe Tyrion didn't took it so far, or maybe he wasn't filled with lust etc. Given Sansa's very fragile emotional state at the time as well as her distaste towards Tyrion, and through small changes in her own mind (or hell, even how she perceives what's happening at that point) made a picture of the encounter that reflects Tyrion really badly. Cause if that isn't the case it's weird how into it Tyrion is. only to eventually do the right thing.

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7 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Maybe he didn't. Maybe Sansa's POV suffers from some Rashomon effect. To those who don't know the Rashomon effect occurs when people perceive the exact same thing differently due to their emotional state as well as previous biases. We actually do have a clear example of a Rashmon effect in the discussion between Sam and Jon at the beginning of AFFC and ADWD, with us seeing the conversation from both point of views. While the general outline of the conversation are the same, the details and the focus is wildly different. So maybe Tyrion didn't took it so far, or maybe he wasn't filled with lust etc. Given Sansa's very fragile emotional state at the time as well as her distaste towards Tyrion, and through small changes in her own mind (or hell, even how she perceives what's happening at that point) made a picture of the encounter that reflects Tyrion really badly. Cause if that isn't the case it's weird how into it Tyrion is. only to eventually do the right thing.

Sam and Jon might perceive the conversation differently (which is normal) but neither of them is just making up things, that didn't happen.

To make any of this any better Sansa would have had to imagine quite a lot in that moment, that didn't actually happen, because what he is doing and saying is precisely the problematic part, not how she is interpreting it. If we start with that, we have to question everything now, that has ever happened in the books. If we go be that logic we can also just assume, that he actually raped her. 

And actually Sansa doesn't make Tyrion look bad at all. She feels empathy ("He is as frightened as I am,"-which is of course ridiculous, since she is child about to be raped and he is a grown man, who has the power to stop it if he wants to. So she actually sees him in a better light) and pity for him ("All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire.")

So she does absolutely not paint him as a monster, he himself is doing that with his actions and words. She doesn't even dislike Tyrion or look at him as a bad human being, her revulsion is purely physical and because he is a Lannister and also because she is just freaking 12, even if it would be Loras Tyrell sitting in the bed with her, it would be to much for her.

We also get Tyrion's thoughts from his own pov later, that shows, that he indeed lusts after her.

"My wife wants no part of me, and most especially not the part that seems to want her."

A Storm of Swords, Tyrion 7

"I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust."

A Storm of Swords, Tyrion 4

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sam and Jon might perceive the conversation differently (which is normal) but neither of them is just making up things, that didn't happen.

To make any of this any better Sansa would have had to imagine quite a lot in that moment, that didn't actually happen, because what he is doing and saying is precisely the problematic part, not how she is interpreting it. If we start with that, we have to question everything now, that has ever happened in the books. If we go be that logic we can also just assume, that he actually raped her. 

Yeah, you do have a point. I was thinking more on Sansa's super weird and very uncomfortable descriptions, which do have some bias against Tyrion. Like maybe the timeline was very similar, but Tyrion seems a bit too determinate with doing it, until he just doesn't do it, so maybe the part that is more Sansa's mind is Tyrion's determination, with him actually becoming more and more uncomfortable with the situation until he decides it isn't worth it, instead of him seeming to just drop the idea out of the blue. Similar timeline of event, it just puts Tyrion in a very different light. It would be very interesting if we get a Tyrion POV in which he thinks back more in detail to the wedding night.

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16 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yeah, you do have a point. I was thinking more on Sansa's super weird and very uncomfortable descriptions, which do have some bias against Tyrion. 

could you please provide some quotes for that?

Quote

Like maybe the timeline was very similar, but Tyrion seems a bit too determinate with doing it, until he just doesn't do it, so maybe the part that is more Sansa's mind is Tyrion's determination, with him actually becoming more and more uncomfortable with the situation until he decides it isn't worth it, instead of him seeming to just drop the idea out of the blue. Similar timeline of event, it just puts Tyrion in a very different light. It would be very interesting if we get a Tyrion POV in which he thinks back more in detail to the wedding night.

She doesn't ever think he is very determined to do it though. This is just what happens.

We of course don't know, what is going on inn Tyrion's head, very well possible, that he gets more and more uncomfortable and therefore doesn't want to do it anymore, but his actions don't reflect that. Right before he stops he does the worse thing he has done all night, they are both naked on the bed, because he has told Sansa to get in there, he hasn't allowed her to cover herself, has an erection and is now groping her breast. Right after that he stops.

Unless it really didn't happen like that, I really don't know, how his pov could put him into a better light. IMO Sansa's pov is probably more generous to him.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Right before he stops he does the worse thing he has done all night, they are both naked on the bed, because he has told Sansa to get in there, he hasn't allowed her to cover herself, has an erection and is now groping her breast. Right after that he stops.

And there in lies the rub. It's a bit too weird that he goes that far seemingly without much hesitation only to suddenly stop dead in his tracks.

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4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And there in lies the rub. It's a bit too weird that he goes that far seemingly without much hesitation only to suddenly stop dead in his tracks.

Tbh it's very hard for me to know what would be weird or not weird for Tyrion in this situation. I have a hard time empathizing with him here, but also when he kills Shae or rapes the slave girl. So he is definitely capable of some horrible deeds and I feel like there is no reason to believe he didn't do what he did.

I don't understand a lot of the actions of some characters, but I still believe that, that's what actually happened. Otherwise what would GRRM stop from pulling a "it was all a dream kinda thing" I also think GRRM would give us hints, if Tyrion did something else. We would have heard about it in his pov

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16 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And there in lies the rub. It's a bit too weird that he goes that far seemingly without much hesitation only to suddenly stop dead in his tracks.

I guess what it could be is that he is okay with knowing, that someone doesn't want to sleep with him, but not with actually seeing it, when he is about to do it. Like @SeanF said, if Sansa would have managed to hide her revulsion better he might have done it.

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4 hours ago, frenin said:

There are differences, the most glaring is the age, calling Robb a manchild would make no sense, since he is a child. But adults behaving like kids usually has more dangerous consequences because they act on impulse but can rationalize it far better and they had a very difficult time acknowledging their acts.

 

But Tyrion does more than behave like a kid. He behaves like a pedophile.

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Maybe he didn't. Maybe Sansa's POV suffers from some Rashomon effect. To those who don't know the Rashomon effect occurs when people perceive the exact same thing differently due to their emotional state as well as previous biases. We actually do have a clear example of a Rashmon effect in the discussion between Sam and Jon at the beginning of AFFC and ADWD, with us seeing the conversation from both point of views. While the general outline of the conversation are the same, the details and the focus is wildly different. So maybe Tyrion didn't took it so far, or maybe he wasn't filled with lust etc. Given Sansa's very fragile emotional state at the time as well as her distaste towards Tyrion, and through small changes in her own mind (or hell, even how she perceives what's happening at that point) made a picture of the encounter that reflects Tyrion really badly. Cause if that isn't the case it's weird how into it Tyrion is. only to eventually do the right thing.

I would love for this to be the case & there is some precedence for it where Sansa is concerned (the un-kiss) 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sam and Jon might perceive the conversation differently (which is normal) but neither of them is just making up things, that didn't happen.

To make any of this any better Sansa would have had to imagine quite a lot in that moment, that didn't actually happen, because what he is doing and saying is precisely the problematic part, not how she is interpreting it. If we start with that, we have to question everything now, that has ever happened in the books. If we go be that logic we can also just assume, that he actually raped her. 

And actually Sansa doesn't make Tyrion look bad at all. She feels empathy ("He is as frightened as I am,"-which is of course ridiculous, since she is child about to be raped and he is a grown man, who has the power to stop it if he wants to. So she actually sees him in a better light) and pity for him ("All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire.")

So she does absolutely not paint him as a monster, he himself is doing that with his actions and words. She doesn't even dislike Tyrion or look at him as a bad human being, her revulsion is purely physical and because he is a Lannister and also because she is just freaking 12, even if it would be Loras Tyrell sitting in the bed with her, it would be to much for her.

We also get Tyrion's thoughts from his own pov later, that shows, that he indeed lusts after her.

"My wife wants no part of me, and most especially not the part that seems to want her."

A Storm of Swords, Tyrion 7

"I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust."

A Storm of Swords, Tyrion 4

 

 

 

 

 

I agree, Sansa does her very best to remain courteous even to this man that is getting ready to rape her. 

I also agree that Sansa would have to remember things much differently than how they really happened in order for Tyrion to be in the right in that situation, but a girl can hope right? 

20 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And there in lies the rub. It's a bit too weird that he goes that far seemingly without much hesitation only to suddenly stop dead in his tracks.

What has always bothered me is him "wanting" her. He recognizes she is a child but still wants her. It paints him as a pedophile & for all the other questionable things he has done he doesn't seem to have a history of being a pedophile. 

I understand it's different in universe & girls get married young etc but he actually says to himself that she is a child. How can you recognize someone as a child, want them sexually & not be a pedophile? 

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But Tyrion does more than behave like a kid. He behaves like a pedophile.

He does, again,  never said otherwise. 

 

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I also agree that Sansa would have to remember things much differently than how they really happened in order for Tyrion to be in the right in that situation, but a girl can hope right? 

I'm not saying Tyrion's actions are in the right, all I'm saying is that there is something weird about the whole story. Like I would find it far more probable that Tyrion was getting more and more sick with the whole concept and then just said to himself ,,screw it, I'm not doing it" rather then him doing almost everything short of the actual deed itself with at least a sense of duty (and maybe some lust), and then almost out of nowhere just stopping. And given that the Rashomon effect clearly happens in the story, then maybe the story isn't quite like Sansa perceives it. Again not saying Tyrion is a good guy here.

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2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I also agree that Sansa would have to remember things much differently than how they really happened in order for Tyrion to be in the right in that situation, but a girl can hope right? 

For the Un-Sexual assault?

Omg if this is true, things really are getting out of hand lol

Nobody will take poor Sansa seriously anymore.

There are a couple of differences however: Sansa doesn't tell us in the moment, that Sandor kissed her, but afterwards. And also GRRM lets us know about it. IMO it would be very unlike GRRM to not give us at least some clues, if something else happened. Otherwise we could just suspect totally different things happening all the time.

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8 minutes ago, frenin said:

He does, again,  never said otherwise. 

 

I know but that's why I & NN think "manchild" isn't an appropriate adjective for Tyrion. 

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8 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm not saying Tyrion's actions are in the right, all I'm saying is that there is something weird about the whole story. Like I would find it far more probable that Tyrion was getting more and more sick with the whole concept and then just said to himself ,,screw it, I'm not doing it" rather then him doing almost everything short of the actual deed itself with at least a sense of duty (and maybe some lust), and then almost out of nowhere just stopping. And given that the Rashomon effect clearly happens in the story, then maybe the story isn't quite like Sansa perceives it. Again not saying Tyrion is a good guy here.

Oh, no I understand. I didn't think you were defending his actions at all. Was just adding to it. I desperately want Tyrion to have not done this because I think he is a great character & feel like this is out of character for him. 

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7 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

For the Un-Sexual assault?

Omg if this is true, things really are getting out of hand lol

Nobody will take poor Sansa seriously anymore.

There are a couple of differences however: Sansa doesn't tell us in the moment, that Sandor kissed her, but afterwards. And also GRRM lets us know about it. IMO it would be very unlike GRRM to not give us at least some clues, if something else happened. Otherwise we could just suspect totally different things happening all the time.

Yeah, I agree but it would do my heart some good to find out he didn't assault her. I agree it's pretty unlikely though. 

What about it being some parallel universe Sansa is living in? Maybe in Tyrion's universe he didn't do this to her? Haha I'm getting real tinfoil-y now. The things I do for love ... 

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4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I desperately want Tyrion to have not done this because I think he is a great character & feel like this is out of character for him.

Yeah the same. Like being very twisted and complex and having polarizing feelings between his very strong carnal impulses and his noble side is clearly very in character for him. However going as far as he is shown to have gone isn't something I would see pre-Tywin's death Tyrion doing.

Edited by Alyn Oakenfist

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Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yeah the same. Like being very twisted and complex and having polarizing feelings between his very strong carnal impulses and his noble side is clearly very in character for him. However going as far as he did isn't something I would see pre-Tywin's death Tyrion doing.

Yeah exactly. It's never sat right with me & I honestly think George made a mistake writing that way. 

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I honestly think George made a mistake writing that way

Or maybe he specifically wrote several chapters to be somewhat unreliable, not in the general flow of the story, but in the details and atmosphere kind of way. Again the best example is Jon's and Sam's conversation. On a side note, especially given the way ASOIAF uses POV, I think it's a shame the Rashomon effect isn't explored more in these books.

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I think he realized how much of a child she still was, and wanted no part of it.  He also realized how she felt about the situation, and wanted no part of that either.  This was well before the infamous slave girl incident, when he was still a (more-or-less) decent person.  

So I think he is turned off by her child aspect, and, in a way, is trying to be nice.

Or maybe I am just giving him too much the benefit of the doubt.

Edited by Nevets

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I get that lots of readers like Tyrion, and there’s a reason for it. Martin wrote him as he did deliberately, to make people sympathise w/ Tyrion, but also to realise he is no saint (to put it very, very mildly). Only much later, in ADwD, does Tyrion’s nasty creepiness becomes obvious. 

IRT their wedding night, I think Tyrion would have liked very much for Sansa to just think, “aw fuck it, I’m married to the guy and it’s gonna have to happen eventually, so might as well just get it over w/ right now”. And when he realised she didn’t think anything like that at all, his pride didn’t let him go through w/ it. 

We only see Tyrion’s true colours in Dance

 

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