Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

43 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Don't know why you think I blamed anyone of advocating for rape. This is something, that doesn't need to be explained to me. We are arguing about a text. Tbh I'm a bit annoyed of having to defend myself against things I never implied. And if you are talking about the dialogue between me and corbon, I'd rather, that stays between him an I, since IMO it's quite different from ours. And I said a couple of things directly in response to his statements

No, I don't think you blamed anyone of advocating rape. It was only meant to mean that some people just genuinely see it different & not for any bad reason, I probably should have stated it that way instead. 

43 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

hard to have this dialogue, when you are speaking for several ppl, because even though, what you are stating here, I agree with in regards to your posts, there were other definitely problematic things said.

I'm not trying to speak for several people, I'm sorry. Sometimes I see an exchange between two people & think they are misunderstanding each other & that it would be helpful if I interjected & explained it in a different manner. 

43 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

also think the definition needs to stay with the victim. She was molested and Tyrion did it, whether you believe he is to blame or not, speaking Tyrion free from guilt won't make her not being molested, the same way that Cersei was raped

I disagree that she was molested. She was touched, but for that to be molestation it needs to be sexual abuse or assault & I don't think it was. 

44 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Molesting isn't as bad as raping. Doesn't make molesting better. Same thing goes here IMO. It was pretty bad, she thought she was going to die. And yeah it would have been really, really, really bad, if he had just killed an innocent girl for no reason whatsoever. 

By definition one thing being not as bad as the other makes the first thing better. Idk if molestation is not as bad as raping, so I wouldn't call it better than raping either. 

But words cannot be as bad as the deed itself. To say I will rape you is bad, to actually do it is worse. To say I will kill/main/torture you is bad, to do it worse. That makes the first things better than the second but not good.

47 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

sure, there are explanations, there are reasons. And maybe that takes a bit away from his responsibility, but to say he is not responsible at all is just not truthful IMO

I don't think he wasn't responsible at all. He killed a child & it wasn't because his own life was threatened. I'm just saying it isn't as black & white as Sandor killing an innocent child because he wanted to. 

49 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The Hound after all didn't have to serve the Lannisters and we should also not forget. He told Sansa, he killed "women and children" and there are all just meat to him and he is the butcher. he probably killed a lot of other innocent ppl, because, if he is not fond of torturing what else did the Lannisters use him for? he was pretty quickly off his horse, when Joffrey commanded him to bring him the head of the guy, who threw shit during the 

I think it's arguable about how much choice he had in serving the Lannisters. He did get away but it was during a battle while no one was paying any attention. I don't think he would be free to go home & live his life peacefully & the Lannisters would just let him. Not at this point, but that's all pretty much speculation. 

51 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

the Hound wasn't responsible for "all the evil he has done", he wouldn't have to dig graves on the quiet isle now

I'm not saying he isn't responsible for all the evil he has done at all. 

52 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

understand Jaime's case a bit better, since it was not just his own life on the line. Doesn't mean he isn't still responsible though for what he did. He also didn't have put himself in this position in the first place for example

No, he didn't have to put himself in this position but he is calling victim to the shitty, feudal society he lives in. He & Cersei are two consenting adults & as gross as I, personally, think it is to sleep with your sibling, there is no justifiable reason either them or their children should be facing death for doing it. 

Certainly he is responsible for what he did, but given his options it makes it much more understandable than if he just pushed some kid out of a window for giggles. 

55 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So every crime, that someone commits is just justifiable as long as they are always saving there own lives

The crime is never justifiable but the person committing it should not be punished if they were forced to do it. 

56 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Also Tyrion was under no death threat here. Nothing happened at all. So maybe he should have at least waited for the threat and maybe I would judge hims less harshly

I agree he wasn't under a death threat. Tyrion's justification doesn't lay in that he was forced. 

57 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And I personally think there is something wrong with putting your own well being at all costs constantly over that of others. It's fine, if we disagree in that regard.

Sure, there are instances where I would agree to that & instances where I wouldn't. I just don't think I can judge that for another person. 

58 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

maybe than you should accept, that you have done something wrong and take responsibility for it, instead of deflecting from it and making excuses for it. 

I think everyone should accept when they do something wrong. 

I'm not sure how this fits irt to Tyrion though.

58 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That's why i have more respect for the Hound and Jaime. At least they are honest about who they are

I mean, we can agree to disagree but Tyrion's character is written to be one of the most self aware. I would argue he is quite a bit more honest about who he is than Jaime was. The Hound is pretty honest too. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

58 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. And that was one of the reasons there was a trial. I think a handfull were declared not guilty (much more were) too.

It's a thin line to walk. Like, being the one to make sure the gaschamber line is single file, fuck that guy, right? Ok, gunpoint, family at gunpoint, boo hoo. Shit went on for like 20 years. Not even the SS had that many guns pointed at you for that long. 

If you become a monster, then stop. 

There was that discussion a bit back, or lack there of i guess, of death over rape. I disagree with it. Im in no rush to get stretched and cant even imagine the fear, let alone pain that comes with it. But still, life. So death over monstrosity? Ok. Fine. I may do something terrible to save my skin, but repeatedly? 20 years? No way. Life over death, but only if its one worth living.

Absolutely. There are different levels of what people can live with & I personally could live with doing something horrible, once to save my life (depending on what the horrible thing is) maybe I could do something horrible more than once to save my children's lives. But there becomes a point, where, as you say it wouldn't be worth living. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

46 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It seems to be a misconception in this thread, that I think Tyrion should not be redeemed, just because I think he has responsibility for a lot of what he did

For what it's worth, it wasn't a misconception of mine, I hadn't really thought about it tbh. I'm more of the opinion that he doesn't need redeemed, for this anyway, because in universe he didn't do anything wrong. 

[Nagini's Neville]

9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree that she was molested. She was touched, but for that to be molestation it needs to be sexual abuse or assault & I don't think it was. 

Molestation is no matter of perspective, it is defined. And honestly, that's what I'm referring to when I say some ppl downplay what happened to her. 

Sexual assault is an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.^[1] It is a form of sexual violence, which includes rape (forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), groping, child sexual abuse or the torture of the person in a sexual manner.

Child sexual abuse, also called child molestation, is a form of child abuse in which an adult or older adolescent uses a child for sexual stimulation.^[1][2] Forms of child sexual abuse include engaging in sexual activities with a child (whether by asking or pressuring, or by other means), indecent exposure (of the genitals, female nipples, etc.), child grooming, child sexual exploitation ^[3][4][5] or using a child to produce child pornography.^[1][6][7]

[Nagini's Neville]

11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For what it's worth, it wasn't a misconception of mine, I hadn't really thought about it tbh. I'm more of the opinion that he doesn't need redeemed, for this anyway, because in universe he didn't do anything wrong. 

The Hound didn't do anything wrong in universe. Gregor didn't do anything wrong in universe. Robert didn't do anything wrong within universe. 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

26 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

By definition one thing being not as bad as the other makes the first thing better. Idk if molestation is not as bad as raping, so I wouldn't call it better than raping either. 

But words cannot be as bad as the deed itself. To say I will rape you is bad, to actually do it is worse. To say I will kill/main/torture you is bad, to do it worse. That makes the first things better than the second but not good.

I just don't understand, why we should mention a worse thing. there is always a worse thing. We could as well say. The hound threatened to kill her, but he didn't kill a whole village full of innocent people. IMO the later just doesn't have anything to do with the former. Fact is he threatened her to the point, she thought he would kill her. And IMO , that's the act we should talk about, when trying to judge his behavior on that night. But yeah it's just my opinion.

[Nagini's Neville]

34 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think he wasn't responsible at all. He killed a child & it wasn't because his own life was threatened. I'm just saying it isn't as black & white as Sandor killing an innocent child because he wanted to. 

No, I agree and the same way I view the incident with Sansa and Tyrion. Would Tyrion/Sandor have acted the way they did, if they wouldn't have been put in the situation by Tywin/Cersei? No. But once they were in the moment, they still did what they did, without their lives being threatened. Did they want to molest/murder a child? No. But they still did. And Mycah is dead and Sansa has to live with the consequences.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

32 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Molestation is no matter of perspective, it is defined. And honestly, that's what I'm referring to when I say some ppl downplay what happened to her. 

Sexual assault is an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.^[1] It is a form of sexual violence, which includes rape (forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), groping, child sexual abuse or the torture of the person in a sexual manner.

Child sexual abuse, also called child molestation, is a form of child abuse in which an adult or older adolescent uses a child for sexual stimulation.^[1][2] Forms of child sexual abuse include engaging in sexual activities with a child (whether by asking or pressuring, or by other means), indecent exposure (of the genitals, female nipples, etc.), child grooming, child sexual exploitation ^[3][4][5] or using a child to produce child pornography.^[1][6][7]

I know the definition, I'm debating that is what Tyrion did. He touched her but it was not without her consent. 

Child sexual abuse doesn't apply here. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

30 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The Hound didn't do anything wrong in universe. Gregor didn't do anything wrong in universe. Robert didn't do anything wrong within universe. 

 

Sure they did. To murder, rape, & torture are all crimes in universe. 

Robert didn't do anything unlawful, in universe that I recall. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

24 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I just don't understand, why we should mention a worse thing. there is always a worse thing. We could as well say. The hound threatened to kill her, but he didn't kill a whole village full of innocent people. IMO the later just doesn't have anything to do with the former. Fact is he threatened her to the point, she thought he would kill her. And IMO , that's the act we should talk about, when trying to judge his behavior on that night. But yeah it's just my opinion.

I was differentiating that action of the Hounds from the other actions you named in that post. 

He killed Mycah, Jaime tried to killed Bran, Tyrion raped Tysha. 

These things are not on the same level as saying or threatening to do something. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

17 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

No, I agree and the same way I view the incident with Sansa and Tyrion. Would Tyrion/Sandor have acted the way they did, if they wouldn't have been put in the situation by Tywin/Cersei? No. But once they were in the moment, they still did what they did, without their lives being threatened. Did they want to molest/murder a child? No. But they still did. And Mycah is dead and Sansa has to live with the consequences.

Our disagreement is in that Sandor did kill a child while Tyrion did not molest one. 

[Nagini's Neville]

Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I know the definition, I'm debating that is what Tyrion did. He touched her but it was not without her consent. 

she was force to marry him. Does she have to scream and cry for her no to consent? She had no choice, but to "consent". Therefore it's not consent. Tyrion told her get on the bed, told her "no" when she wanted to cover herself. Is she now consenting, just because she is obeying? In a marriage a woman has to obey her husband.

Quote

Child sexual abuse doesn't apply here. 

Either we name it after modern day definitions or we don't have to name it at all. Or do we now suddenly also don't say Cersei was raped by Robert? Do we now judge everything again just according to universe. Than Robert had every right to force himself on Cersei I guess. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

she was force to marry him. Does she have to scream and cry for her no to consent? She had no choice, but to "consent". Therefore it's not consent. Tyrion told her get on the bed, told her "no" when she wanted to cover herself. Is she now consenting, just because she is obeying? In a marriage a woman has to obey her husband

We've been through this already but no, not because she is obeying, because she willingly takes her clothes off & doesn't speak any word or show any outward sign of not consenting. 

3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Either we name it after modern day definitions or we don't have to name it at all. Or do we now suddenly also don't say Cersei was raped by Robert? Do we now judge everything again just according to universe. Than Robert had every right to force himself on Cersei I guess

I thought we were all in agreement that irl it's child molestation, so I didn't really see the reason to mention that again. We've pretty much established that in universe it isn't child molestation. 

In universe it isn't molestation. IRL, excluding her age, it would be a hard case to prove molestation because of Sansa's outward actions. The molester has to be given some sign other than assent to understand or even guess that the touching is unwanted. 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure they did. To murder, rape, & torture are all crimes in universe. 

On command of the king? That's lawful. Tywin wants to Gregor to inflict terror. The only person, who had a problem with it is Ned and guess what else he would have had a problem with, that his daughter was unlawfully given away in marriage by a bastard, which the man she marries was fully aware of.

Quote

Robert didn't do anything unlawful, in universe that I recall.

 he raped Cersei. But apparently that's not a problem anymore, since everything only gets judged in universe now.

[BlackLightning]

I'm a bit confused. Like where is this conversation going?

There was a rather ominous passage in A Dance with Dragons in which Tyrion expresses his clear intention on finally consummating his marriage to Sansa. And the undertone there was that he was going to do it come hell or high water.

So, Sansa has a reason to be very concerned and fearful when Tyrion returns to Westeros alongside the Mother of Dragons and her foreign, frightening armies.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

On command of the king? That's lawful. Tywin wants to Gregor to inflict terror. The only person, who had a problem with it is Ned and guess what else he would have had a problem with, that his daughter was unlawfully given away in marriage by a bastard, which the man she marries was fully aware of.

Gregor isn't commanded by the King, he is commanded by Tywin so in universe & irl he has committed crimes. 

I'm sure Ned would have a problem with Sansa being forced to marry Tyrion. I'm not sure what the point there is. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm a bit confused. Like where is this conversation going?

There was a rather ominous passage in A Dance with Dragons in which Tyrion expresses his clear intention on finally consummating his marriage to Sansa. And the undertone there was that he was going to do it come hell or high water.

Round & round & round we go, where we stop, nobody knows! 

Lol

Yeah I don't recall that passage but he had long since lost Sansa so I'm not sure what difference that makes to this discussion. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

he raped Cersei. But apparently that's not a problem anymore, since everything only gets judged in universe now

In universe it isn't. I'm not sure why you are so insistent that everyone only gets judged by in universe standards. 

The post you quoted of mine was in reply to your statement that Robert, Gregor, & the Hound didn't do anything wrong in universe. I said the two of them did, Robert didn't. 

Are we talking about in universe or out? Is it contested that Robert raped Cersei by our standards? Honestly it's rape by any standards but it isn't unlawful in universe. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

So, Sansa has a reason to be very concerned and fearful when Tyrion returns to Westeros alongside the Mother of Dragons and her foreign, frightening armies

I doubt that, but we shall see. 

[BlackLightning]

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Round & round & round we go, where we stop, nobody knows! 

Lol

Yeah I don't recall that passage but he had long since lost Sansa so I'm not sure what difference that makes to this discussion. 

The difference it makes to the discussion is that Tyrion probably will try to rape Sansa the next go around and will make a claim to take Winterfell, which would make the soon-to-be-newly reunited Stark kids homeless and penniless...again.

Killing Tywin and Shae sent Tyrion over the edge and I don't think he's going to be what he once was. Especially not after what is likely and bound to happen in The Winds of Winter

Tyrion is an enemy of the Stark family and, more than that, has been their enemy for quite some time. And it will not change. His interests have always clashed with Stark interests.

Why would you doubt that?