Jump to content
Alyn Oakenfist

Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

Recommended Posts

14 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Or maybe he specifically wrote several chapters to be somewhat unreliable, not in the general flow of the story, but in the details and atmosphere kind of way. Again the best example is Jon's and Sam's conversation. On a side note, especially given the way ASOIAF uses POV, I think it's a shame the Rashomon effect isn't explored more in these books.

Yeah, maybe. I would love for this to be the case. 

4 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I think he realized how much of a child she still was, and wanted no part of it.  He also realized how she felt about the situation, and wanted no part of that either.  This was well before the infamous slave girl incident, when he was still a (more-or-less) decent person.  

So I think he is turned off by her child, and, in a way, is trying to be nice.

Or maybe I am just giving him too much the benefit of the doubt.

I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, I really do. But he isn't turned off by her being a child. He recognizes she is a child AND that he still "wants" her or lusts for her or whatever. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Nevets said:

So I think he is turned off by her child,

But everything in that scene tells us he is very much turned on by Sansa, regardless of the fact that she is a child. :ack:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Why did he take it so far then however? He must have been crazy deluded to think she was not afraid, she even tells him and he still molests her. Similar with Shae, he knows the whole time she is a prostitute. Tyrion has a heart for "bastards cripples and broken things", expect, when it comes the women he wants to sleep with, then he puts his needs above everything else and he stops looking at them as human beings, who suffer as well and have needs themselves. The same thing with the salve girl.

 

Its literally his job to take it all the way. The entire point of the marriage is a political stunts to steal Winterfell. He needs to get her pregnant to seal the deal and start popping out Lannister heirs to Winterfell.
Never mind the individuals involved. This is business here, dynastic business.

Yes, its a nasty business. Welcome to the game of thrones. :ack:

It pretty much disgusts me that some people don't seem to be able to see past their comfortable little modern lives. Tyrion does some shitty things, especially to the slave girl is Essos (whom I agree, he doesn't really see as human, at a very low point in his life), but he's also living in a culture and paradigm. Surely that has to be taken into account? I think that sometimes he fails, but sometimes he succeeds, in rising above his cultural paradigm.

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But Tyrion does more than behave like a kid. He behaves like a pedophile.

Its not pedophilia in his culture. She is a woman flowered.
He recognises that although his culture says thats enough, its not really enough. Sheesh, I think thats worth some credit! Further, although its literally his job to impregnate her, and she represents (as the iconic tall, beautiful, kind, polite, respectful Lady Sansa, not as the scared little girl Sansa the person) all the good that he's longs for and has been denied in his life, he actually stops, and doesn't go through with it. 
But no, no credit.
And yes, that doesn't mean that as far as he did go was 'right'. I'm not condoning any of his actions. Or saying he bears no responsibilities. We are all responsible for our own actions and choices, regardless of what situations and contexts are around them.

He's caught in so many conflicts. His culture, his job, his family, his own issues with his father the way he is, no mother, no positive female presence.
Dude is messed up. 

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What has always bothered me is him "wanting" her. He recognizes she is a child but still wants her. It paints him as a pedophile & for all the other questionable things he has done he doesn't seem to have a history of being a pedophile. 

We wants her because of what she represents. He's literally never had a positive female presence in his life who wasn't a paid underling. Sansa is physically a woman in his culture, even if not completely developed. But even more importantly for him, because she is tall and beautiful, but even more, kind, courteous, respectful and gentle, she represents the possibility of fulfillment for him. A genuine partner.
He's not gonna get that, at least not for a long time. He's too messed up. And not with her, because the situation is too messed up. But that doesn't, and shouldn't stop him from wanting it. Wich translates, to wanting her. He doesn't 'want' Sansa the scared little girl. He wants Sansa the wonderful wife that could be.

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I understand it's different in universe & girls get married young etc but he actually says to himself that she is a child. How can you recognize someone as a child, want them sexually & not be a pedophile? 

 

Because she is both a child and not a child. She is both herself (the not desire-able due to her immaturity child-woman), and also an (utterly desirable because of the possibility she represents) icon for him. Because he's pretty badly screwed up.

I get that its easy to empathise for Sansa, and the situation she's in.
And that its harder, especially for females in this situation, to empathise with Tyrion.
But I'd think people could try a little.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar & @Alyn Oakenfist or maybe you guys are just a bit blind, when it comes to Tyrion? :dunno:;)

21 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think it's a shame the Rashomon effect isn't explored more in these books.

I think this effect was actually used for the Unkiss. Sansa and the Hound definitely remember it differently 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But everything in that scene tells us he is very much turned on by Sansa, regardless of the fact that she is a child. :ack:

 

Not only that scene ("I want you." ,erection) but also his thoughts afterwards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given that it's from Sansa's POV, it's hard to say what his thoughts are on the subject.

And, technically, she's not a child.  She has gone through puberty, and (probably) has secondary sexual characteristics like breasts and curves.  But it is still a bit icky.  

And, by Westeros standards (and real-life Middle ages standards, for that matter) she is not a child any more.

It is probably worth mentioning that, in Westeros and the real Middle Ages on which it is somewhat based, children, especially younger adolescents, do ( and did) all sorts of things that range from inappropriate to flat-out illegal today.  I tend to just roll with it.  It's easier that way, if a bit lazy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, corbon said:

 The entire point of the marriage is a political stunts to steal Winterfell. He needs to get her pregnant to seal the deal and start popping out Lannister heirs to Winterfell.
Never mind the individuals involved. This is business here, dynastic business.

Yes, its a nasty business. Welcome to the game of thrones. :ack:

It pretty much disgusts me that some people don't seem to be able to see past their comfortable little modern lives. Tyrion does some shitty things, especially to the slave girl is Essos (whom I agree, he doesn't really see as human, at a very low point in his life), but he's also living in a culture and paradigm. Surely that has to be taken into account? I think that sometimes he fails, but sometimes he succeeds, in rising above his cultural paradigm.

First of all getting a 12 year old pregnant in incredibly dangerous. A 12 year old body is not ready to carry a child yet. It's neither healthy for the mother nor the child. And that's precisely the reason they didn't actually consummate marriages with such young girls in the Middle Ages. Given the fact, that women seem to die in childbirth even more in ASOIAF, than in the actual Middle Ages that's not a good argument. Tywin also tells Tyrion in the beginning to only sleep with her once and than he can wait a couple of years.

Quote

 

Its literally his job to take it all the way.

 

So to you the ends justify all means, even child rape? I happen to disagree. And I can't see Ned Stark or any of the Stark men really or a lot of other men in ASOIAF raping a child to defeat their enemy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, corbon said:

He recognises that although his culture says thats enough, its not really enough. Sheesh, I think thats worth some credit! Further, although its literally his job to impregnate her, and she represents (as the iconic tall, beautiful, kind, polite, respectful Lady Sansa, not as the scared little girl Sansa the person) all the good that he's longs for and has been denied in his life, he actually stops, and doesn't go through with it. 

I just don't understand how someone can be sexually attracted to someone they see as a child & not be a pedophile. 

26 minutes ago, corbon said:

He's caught in so many conflicts. His culture, his job, his family, his own issues with his father the way he is, no mother, no positive female presence.
Dude is messed up.

Yeah he is in a rough spot & I sympathize with him in most situations but this one involved a child & he is the one with the power here. 

28 minutes ago, corbon said:

Because she is both a child and not a child. She is both herself (the not desire-able due to her immaturity child-woman), and also an (utterly desirable because of the possibility she represents) icon for him. Because he's pretty badly screwed up

But there is no "not desirable" to it. He sees her as a child & is sexually aroused by her anyway. He is certainly screwed up, that's the point. I feel for him for all the bad that has happened to him. But this doesn't take one iota of the blame off of him where Sansa is concerned. 

24 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

or maybe you guys are just a bit blind, when it comes to Tyrion

Yeah, maybe but I'm doing my best. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I think he realized how much of a child she still was, and wanted no part of it.  He also realized how she felt about the situation, and wanted no part of that either.  

He was aware of both of those things before even agreeing to marry her.

She didn't bend the knee, she was crying throughout the ceremony.

She told him her age, she told him she was frightened, he called her a child and he still molested her after all of that. Actions speak louder than worlds IMO

Quote

So I think he is turned off by her child aspect

A child,” he repeated, “but I want you. Does that frighten you, Sansa?” “Yes.” , he also has an erection

"My wife wants no part of me, and most especially not the part that seems to want her."

A Storm of Swords, Tyrion 7

"I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust."

A Storm of Swords, Tyrion 4

Her child aspect doesn't seem to turn him off, that much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, corbon said:

He recognises that although his culture says thats enough, its not really enough. Sheesh, I think thats worth some credit! 

eh no. It's even worse, that he is aware of 1. she is a child 2. this is cruel 3. he is not what she wants (if she were actually already able to want someone in this way), but still molests her.

If it was dumb Victarion doing this, I wouldn't be surprised, but this is Tyrion. He is intelligent, he is capable of empathy, he has suffered himself and still he is willing to inflict such abuse on another human being, just for his own benefit- to get WF

No credit for that!

41 minutes ago, corbon said:

and she represents (as the iconic tall, beautiful, kind, polite, respectful Lady Sansa, not as the scared little girl Sansa the person) all the good that he's longs for and has been denied in his life, he actually stops, and doesn't go through with it. 
But no, no credit.

No credit for molesting a 12 year old frightened child-bride. No credit for not raping someone- ever.

Also a lot of ppl have a lot of things "denied" in this world- they still don't molest little girls. And put their needs before theirs.

Quote

He's caught in so many conflicts. His culture, his job, his family, his own issues with his father the way he is, no mother, no positive female presence.

Still no reason to do what he did, a lot of people are messed up.

Quote

We are all responsible for our own actions and choices, regardless of what situations and contexts are around them.

So why all the excuses?
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

First of all getting a 12 year old pregnant in incredibly dangerous. A 12 year old body is not ready to carry a child yet. It's neither healthy for the mother nor the child. And that's precisely the reason they didn't actually consummate marriages with such young girls in the Middle Ages. Given the fact, that women seem to die in childbirth even more in ASOIAF, than in the actual Middle Ages that's not a good argument. Tywin also tells Tyrion in the beginning to only sleep with her once and than he can wait a couple of years.

I didn't say it was a good thing. In fact I took pains to show that I did not think it was a good thing. And yes, perhaps a child can wait a few years.
But politically, the marriage needs to be consummated so that it can't be undone.

26 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So to you the ends justify all means, even child rape? I happen to disagree. And I can't see Ned Stark or any of the Stark men really or a lot of other men in ASOIAF raping a child to defeat their enemy.

No. And I find you imputing that to me to be a despicable act on your part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

No credit for molesting a 12 year old frightened child-bride. No credit for not raping someone- ever

Yes. I don't molest or rape 12 year olds or any age for that matter, every single day. Nor does anyone I know. We get lots of credit right! Lol 

You don't get a cookie for doing what you are supposed to do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I just don't understand how someone can be sexually attracted to someone they see as a child & not be a pedophile. 

Then you aren't listening, or not thinking past your 'ick'. The 'child' part is her emotional immaturity. Physically she qualifies as a woman in his culture, and probably her youth and incomplete (but not unstarted, she has breasts etc) development make her culturally even more physically desire-able on the youth=beauty+fertility plus virginity = male ability to control that his children are genetically his, things.
its an e, in a way, to recognise that she's also a child. But that achievement alone doesn't instantly overcome desire. Especially not when its literally his duty to consummate the marriage.

His sexual attraction is part physical, and part iconical.
Physical arousal isn't necessarily controllable (for most people at least), and not necessarily related to the physical situation (or even subject).  think the combination of physical and iconical desire makes it no surprise that Tyrion desires Sansa-his wife.
What I see is that his concern for Sansa-the-person (in combination with his recognition that he's not going to get what he truly desires here - which isn't just sex - and I think it would be a worthy thought about how those two differing aspects intermesh, but unfortunately its just not one we can truly offer any insight to) overcomes his desire for Sansa the icon

22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah he is in a rough spot & I sympathize with him in most situations but this one involved a child & he is the one with the power here. 

Is he? Compared to her, of course.
But its not a situation he intended or desired.
IIRC he actually refused initially, until he realised that Sansa would just get a worse deal from any other option available. If he didn't marry her, she'd get another groom who would treat her even worse than Tyrion did.

 

22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But there is no "not desirable" to it. He sees her as a child & is sexually aroused by her anyway. He is certainly screwed up, that's the point. I feel for him for all the bad that has happened to him. But this doesn't take one iota of the blame off of him where Sansa is concerned. 

Yeah, maybe but I'm doing my best. 

Perhaps recognising that your best isn't all the way there is a start. And if you can;t get all the way, then its perhaps not the best place to be offering criticism or judgement from?
Perhaps recognising that his action, in the end, against all those cultural pressures and responsibilities, was the right one, even if he didn't get there right from the start, is something to respect?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, corbon said:

No. And I find you imputing that to me to be a despicable act on your part.

I didn't mean it like that. Just within universe of course. As you can see I also a phrased it as a question, not a statement. And it is kind what you said however. or I'm misunderstanding you. You said it was his job, the way to get WF. I just don't understand, how this should make it any better, especially, if nobody is literally forcing him to do so. And he could have easily faked the wedding night and protect Sansa in this way, but he doesn't. If you have to do a horrible thing to get something, then maybe you shouldn't try to get it.

And I just don't understand how you can put your own issues and needs- whatever they might be, before the needs of an afraid, abused 12 year old, especially, when you have an understanding of what she is going through. No job does justify that IMO. 

And it's not just his intentions, but also how he goes about it. 

He could have at least done it all over time in more gentle, kinder, human way. First being her friend and protector, earning her trust and when she is older maybe think about the sexual side of things again. It still would have been fucked up, but at least not as fucked up as molesting her right away at 12. Or at least asking her on the wedding night about her fear, at least trying to talk it through with her. She has the body of a 12 year old, is a virgin and not into him- just physically alone, this would have been incredibly painful. While he is a 26 year old adult with a lot of experience. He could have at least done something to try and make it better for her, but instead he expects her to comfort him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

eh no. It's even worse, that he is aware of 1. she is a child 2. this is cruel 3. he is not what she wants (if she were actually already able to want someone in this way), but still molests her.

1. She is emotionally not ready, a child, but in his culture she is also a woman flowered.
2. Yes. And the alternatives are crueler.
3. Its not what he wants either. But for both of them, essentially, its their job. This is the consequence of their privileged, wealthy, powerful lives. Dynastic duties. Its worse for her of course, on multiple layers.

4. He stops though, before it gets serious. Despite all the cultural and personal imperatives, all the responsibilities, he stops.

25 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

If it was dumb Victarion doing this, I wouldn't be surprised, but this is Tyrion. He is intelligent, he is capable of empathy, he has suffered himself and still he is willing to inflict such abuse on another human being, just for his own benefit- to get WF

No credit for that!

The alternative was worse. 
He initially refused, IIRC. But he realised that if he didn't do it his father would just assign another Lannister, which would be no better for her and probably worse, as at least he actually cared about her.

25 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

No credit for molesting a 12 year old frightened child-bride. No credit for not raping someone- ever.

The credit isn't for 'not-raping'. The credit is for fighting against all the cultural and political imperatives that said he should, he must, rape her. For winning that fight, in the end.

25 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So why all the excuses?

They aren't excuses. They are recognition that he did pretty well, in this situation at least, even if not perfectly. 
They are recognition that Tyrion is human too, not juts Sansa.

They are recognition that its a very very complicated and difficult situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, corbon said:

Then you aren't listening, or not thinking past your 'ick'. The 'child' part is her emotional immaturity. Physically she qualifies as a woman in his culture, and probably her youth and incomplete (but not unstarted, she has breasts etc) development make her culturally even more physically desire-able on the youth=beauty+fertility plus virginity = male ability to control that his children are genetically his, things.
its an e, in a way, to recognise that she's also a child. But that achievement alone doesn't instantly overcome desire. Especially not when its literally his duty to consummate the marriage.

I'm listening but I disagree. Even in medieval societies 12 is on the young side of acceptable. Desire is an inherent thing I think & you either can or cannot be sexually aroused by a child. I may view it a little different if he didn't recognize, in his own mind, that she is a child. To him, she is a child. 

The child part is not only her emotional immaturity, it's a physical immaturity as well. Most 12 year olds are not fully developed, no where near. They are just beginning to develop physically & emotionally. 

There just isn't a situation in which molesting someone you, yourself, view as a child is not a pedophiliac action. 

30 minutes ago, corbon said:

His sexual attraction is part physical, and part iconical

 

31 minutes ago, corbon said:

Physical arousal isn't necessarily controllable (for most people at least), and not necessarily related to the physical situation (or even subject).  think the combination of physical and iconical desire makes it no surprise that Tyrion desires Sansa-his wife.
What I see is that his concern for Sansa-the-person (in combination with his recognition that he's not going to get what he truly desires here - which isn't just sex - and I think it would be a worthy thought about how those two differing aspects intermesh, but unfortunately its just not one we can truly offer any insight to) overcomes his desire for Sansa the icon

Yes & it's the physical arousal that bothers me. It may not always be directly related to the subject but in this case it is. He tells us it is. I may be wrong but I think most men would not get sexually aroused at the sight of a 12 year old naked. It's that you cannot explicitly control what arouses you that is so bothersome here. He is sexually aroused by a little girl. There just isn't any spin you can put on that to make it ok. 

I agree he cares for, or at the very least, shows some consideration for Sansa in much of their interactions but child molesters are not typically uncaring or violent toward their victim. They are kind to their victim & groom them to accept what they are doing to them. 

36 minutes ago, corbon said:

Is he? Compared to her, of course

Yes, that's what I'm saying, of the two of them he is the one in power where she virtually has none. 

37 minutes ago, corbon said:

But its not a situation he intended or desired

I agree he didn't intend it nor was it something he put in motion. He didn't desire it prior to marrying her that we are aware of, but he desired her afterwards. 

39 minutes ago, corbon said:

IIRC he actually refused initially, until he realised that Sansa would just get a worse deal from any other option available. If he didn't marry her, she'd get another groom who would treat her even worse than Tyrion did.

Certainly & I commended him for that because I agreed she was safer in his hands than many others. Even after he molested her I think he was still kinder to her than some others would be. He's the lesser of two or more "evils" 

To be clear I don't think he was wrong or bad for marrying her, it's what happened on the night of the marriage that bothers me. 

44 minutes ago, corbon said:

Perhaps recognising that your best isn't all the way there is a start

Well, that was to NN who was asking if perhaps I'm blind toward Tyrion because I'm hopeful there is something to remove some or most of the blame from Tyrion in this situation. I don't consider myself to be too hard on Tyrion ever, I can pretty much get behind everything else he has done, or if not support it, I understand it. This is the one exception. 

47 minutes ago, corbon said:

And if you can;t get all the way, then its perhaps not the best place to be offering criticism or judgement from

Again, you have it backwards. I was admitting that maybe I'm blind toward Tyrion's indiscretions, not that I judge or criticize him too harshly. He is one of my favorite characters & it hurts my heart for him to have behaved that way. 

49 minutes ago, corbon said:

Perhaps recognising that his action, in the end, against all those cultural pressures and responsibilities, was the right one, even if he didn't get there right from the start, is something to respect?

Yeah this is his one saving grace here I think. That he didn't ultimately go through with it. I wish he had decided that prior to touching her though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I didn't mean it like that. Just within universe of course. As you can see I also a phrased it as a question, not a statement.

I do not accept your non-apology. In this context, even the way you phrased it as a question, it was nothing less than a despicable attempt to shut me down by painting me as a horrible person.
Mostly, that exact sort of response would be ok. probably I've used it myself at times. Given the very, very, dangerous ground that we are discussing here, and given the very careful way I repeatedly explained that I was not excusing him and didn't find his actions ideal etc etc, what you did was very not ok. Whether you meant it 'that way' or not. Thats what it was.

8 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And it is kind what you said however. or I'm misunderstanding you. You said it was his job, the way to get WF. I just don't understand, how this should make it any better, especially, if nobody is literally forcing him to do so. And he could have easily faked the wedding night and protect Sansa in this way, but he doesn't.

He is being forced to do this. He argued every way he could think of against it in the small council, and in the end his father said if Tyrion didn't take her, then he'd give her to Lancel or some other Lannister.
Yes, he wants Winterfell. Who doesn't? But he isn't willing to do this to Sansa to get Winterfell. His family are going to get Winterfell through her one way or another. Through someone who doesn't care at all or her. She's going through this for political reasons. Its really just about how bad its going to be for her.

8 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

If you have to do a horrible thing to get something, then maybe you shouldn't try to get it.

Maybe you should read up again, because he literally isn't doing this to get something, even though its something he wants badly.

8 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And I just don't understand how you can put your own issues and needs- whatever they might be, before the needs of an afraid, abused 12 year old, especially, when you have an understanding of what she is going through. No job does justify that IMO. 

He didn't put his needs before hers. Thats exactly, and really the main reason, why I'm arguing against you. He put her needs ahead of his own every step of the way, from arguing against the need to marry her, to marrying her himself to prevent her being forced to marry someone who didn't care for her at all, from the ceremony and standing up to and publicly threatening a vicious and volatile King to protect her from the traditional bedding  ceremony, to holding back from actually bedding her, to enduring the humiliation and scorn after it became known and risking his position in order to continue to protect her.

8 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And it's not just his intentions, but also how he goes about it. 

He could have at least done it all over time in more gentle, kinder, human way. First being her friend and protector, earning her trust and when she is older maybe think about the sexual side of things again. It still would have been fucked up, but at least not as fucked up as molesting her right away at 12. Or at least asking her on the wedding night about her fear, at least trying to talk it through with her. She has the body of a 12 year old, is a virgin and not into him- just physically alone, this would have been incredibly painful. While he is a 26 year old adult with a lot of experience. He could have at least done something to try and make it better for her, but instead he expects her to comfort him.

I think you should read it again. 

And while I understand that touching her breast once, when they were both naked, you see as molesting her, I think thats an extraordinarily blind approach. They were both naked, they had both gone through all the marriage procedures, she had effectively given her consent. He had protected her all the way, and although it clearly was not what she wanted, nor what he wanted for her, nor even what he wanted for himself, they were both trying to make the best of the situation they were in. Touching her breast when she has disrobed into his marriage bed is a tentative test towards the next step, not a molestation. And he decided that her consent was not enough, that her true feelings mattered more than her choices and actions. 
And he continued doing that, not touching her even as they slept together in the a marriage bed, both clothed to make it less difficult for both of them, by his choice. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the idea was that Tyrion and Sansa were doing what was expected of them. You get married, you consummate. Yes, he wants her and yes he is aroused, but he also stops and decides that he's not going to have sex with her and his father can bitch about it as much as he wants. He goes back to Shae instead, he tries to protect Sansa, he tries to befriend her. He stops sleeping naked. So on some level he does try to be respectful toward her. Or as respectful as Tyrion can be toward someone. 

Sansa had her period. The seamstress making her wedding dress tells her that her bosom will be as lovely as the queen's and that she shouldn't hide it.

Sansa thinks about how she couldn't lace her jerkin all the way to the top and how the stableboy was gaping at her when he helped her to her saddle and she also thinks how she sometimes catches men looking at her chest.

Sansa is a child-woman and clearly a beautiful one. And the men around her will keep on perving. Marillion tried to rape her and Littlefinger wants kisses and wants her. He's even older than Tyrion.

This is a universe that is really unkind to women. Dany was 13, married to a man 17 years older than her who didn't care how old she was and had sex with her whenever he wanted so much so that she thought about killing herself. And Jeyne Poole was 13 and married off to Ramsay who is an animal. And if that had really been Arya instead, she would have been even younger than that. 

What we consider pedophilia is not that in Westeros. We're talking about Tyrion's marriage to Sansa, but Lysa might have been as young as 14 when she was married off to Jon Arryn, who was old enough to be her grandfather. He did not hesitate to consummate his marriage since she thought she was pregnant at the same time as Catelyn. The story is littered with examples.

Women are good for being sold into marriage, having children, probably dying while having said children. It makes me appreciate the female characters even more for trying to rise above that and be more than what society Westeros for them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm listening but I disagree. Even in medieval societies 12 is on the young side of acceptable. Desire is an inherent thing I think & you either can or cannot be sexually aroused by a child. I may view it a little different if he didn't recognize, in his own mind, that she is a child. To him, she is a child. 

The child part is not only her emotional immaturity, it's a physical immaturity as well. Most 12 year olds are not fully developed, no where near. They are just beginning to develop physically & emotionally. 

Sansa is well developed for a 12 year old. By no means fully developed.
And this is a culture that values youth and virginity. Its her very near-childhood status that makes her more desire-able in such a culture. A man who sleeps with a virgin knows that her children are his, and thats the only way he has of knowing that. Thats really the underling reason for most such patriarchal cultures. Women at east know their kids are their own. Men don't, unless they have some way of limiting access. Its not right, I'm not advocating it its just what it is.
 

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes & it's the physical arousal that bothers me. It may not always be directly related to the subject but in this case it is.

We can agree to disagree

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He tells us it is. I may be wrong but I think most men would not get sexually aroused at the sight of a 12 year old naked. It's that you cannot explicitly control what arouses you that is so bothersome here. He is sexually aroused by a little girl. There just isn't any spin you can put on that to make it ok. 

I think you are wrong. A well developed naked 12 year old in a sexually provocative situation will cause some arousal in most younger men. We get better trained over time, and there are very few sexually provocative situations remaining with girls that young in our society anyway, but the genetic imperative is to spread that seed in every fertile option, in order to increase the chance of passing on the genes. 

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree he cares for, or at the very least, shows some consideration for Sansa in much of their interactions but child molesters are not typically uncaring or violent toward their victim. They are kind to their victim & groom them to accept what they are doing to them. 

Well, we have seen inside his head what he desires from her. Not a fuck, but a real companion, a partner. A lover yes, as well, of course.

It seems to me that you are blaming him for wanting good things.   

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, that's what I'm saying, of the two of them he is the one in power where she virtually has none. 

And yet, its her choice that wins.
I don't think its particularly relevant that of the two of them he has more power than her. I think it relevant that neither of them have a great deal of choice here and its how they both make the best of the situation that matters. Tyrion actually tries to to that. Sansa doesn't, at all, and you can't blame her for that either.

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, that was to NN who was asking if perhaps I'm blind toward

Yes, i'm kinda speaking to doth of you here, and anyone else following the conversation

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah this is his one saving grace here I think. That he didn't ultimately go through with it.

We agree.

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I wish he had decided that prior to touching her though. 

See my answer to NN about this, at the end. I think you ladies are operating mentally in an inappropriate (and ridiculous - one of the prime examples of the worst aspects of modern feminist thought) modern mindset. I see that one touch as a tentative step to move forward that stops immediately when the reception is negative even though the answers have all been positive until now. She said the words, she disrobed into his marriage bed, they are both naked. Somebody has to make the next move. Its not a molestation to do so, it would be a molestation to continue given her response - the natural negative overwhelming the conscious positive..

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×