Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

[Nagini's Neville]

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I do think it's worth discussing things as to how they pertain in universe vs IRL today though. In universe he did absolutely nothing wrong. By todays standards he did. I think we can both agree on that. 

The Starks would vehemently disagree. Just as wrong as murdering Ned and the RW. They murdered her father, based on the accusation of being a traitor, which he was not. It was her father's right to give her away in marriage and to choose a good husband for her and to choose the time of the marriage. They kept her prisoner based on the accusation, that her father was a traitor, which he wasn't. They maliciously murdered her mother and brother, taking their right away to marry her off. And with forcing her into marriage with Tyrion, they are doing the same thing they did with the RW, conquering WF in another way, than on the battle field. Taking away Bran's right or possibly Jon's (as the heir) to find Sansa a good husband.  

Even within universe this is a big crime (against the Starks) and Tyrion is participating whether he wants it or not, it is even worse for him in some ways, because he has sworn a sacred oath to her mother to return Sansa to her family. 

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The disagreement comes in when we are deciding if we are going to judge Tyrion by what we know today to be right & ok or by what they thought then to be right & ok. 

 

My biggest problem with Tyrion here is that he absolutely knows this is wrong and cruel to her. He says and thinks it multiple time before he molests Sansa.  So I just don't understand how we keep given him leeway here. He is not some dumb little child, who had a gun against his head and accidentally touched her breast. Whether it is culturally wrong or not (I'm still convinced a lot of in-universe-good men would view it as very wrong to touch a 12-year old forced child bride, we only ever see Ramsey do that) he knows she is a child, it's cruel, she doesn't want him. The thing is that he isn't Victarion or Drogo or Ramesy or Gregor or even Theon before Reek. And if he was, we wouldn't even have this discussion. I also think Tyrion is aware, that it's a crime against the Starks and Sansa herself. He's not dumb.

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But it is ultimately wrong. It's wrong to force marriages, it's wrong to expect someone to consummate a forced marriage & it's wrong to touch a child. I understand they thought differently but they are wrong. The damage that would have been done to Sansa, if she were a real person, would be astronomical & it's very hard for me to ignore that. Whether or not Tyrion knew or understood the magnitude of what he was doing to her emotionally & physically doesn't do much to alleviate Sansas trauma. 

 

 Just as wrong as lot of other things in universe. Dany also frees the slaves, the Hound doesn't beat Sansa, Ned doesn't kill children, Jon doesn't kill Ygritte or sleeps with prostitutes, Robb marries Jeyne after taking her virginity, Sansa saves Dontos at risk to herself. The books full of "morally right acts", that go against certain cultural pressure. 

Also if we are going to go by only Westeros' standards/law, than nothing is "wrong" anymore. Not Aerys raping Rhaella or Robert raping Cersei, not even the terror Gregor inflicts, because that's what his leash lord wants him to do, isn't it? Not Tywin having Tysha gang-raped, because she is just a commoner and his underage son was disobedient. Every man, who abuses his wife is then just as much of a good person as Ned Stark, because you can rape and beat your wife and force her to do all kinds of things she doesn't to do- by law.

Fact is Tyrion knew it was wrong, what he was doing and it would cause suffering and he did it anyway.

[teej6]

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Thank you.
Its a difficult and risky thing to discuss this as a male with several females arguing the other side.

I’m female and I agree with your position on this topic . Tyrion is not written as a traditional hero but as a flawed character who grew up in an environment of hate and ridicule, and who feels no woman can love him for himself (especially after the Tysha incident). Before his downward spiral he tries very hard to fight his baser instincts and do what is right. And I completely agree with you that Tyrion is put in a difficult situation in regards to his marriage to Sansa. 

What people forget when they argue that he accepted to marry Sansa, a child hostage, is that he is a Lannister whether he likes his family or not. In the world he lives in, going against his family/ father is not an option for him. The only way in the end for him to severe his relationship with his abusive father was to kill him. In spite of Tyrion’s dislike of the situation, he is placed in a position where he has to consummate his marriage to Sansa in order to further his family’s and in some ways his own ambitions. He is also tempted by his baser instincts when he is alone with Sansa on their wedding night, which I think is a natural reaction for an ordinary man (maybe not the likes of noble Ned) in the world of Westeros. The merit in Tyrion’s character is not that he is noble, instead that he is a flawed character that is fighting his weaknesses and baser instincts to try and become a better person.

In his initial chapters in ADWD, we see the worst of Tyrion but I feel in the later chapters of the same book we see things turning and the better more compassionate side of Tyrion beginning to emerge again. He begins to care for Penny and even saves Jorah, a man who should deserve no sympathy or compassion from him. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

40 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Fact is Tyrion knew it was wrong, what he was doing and it would cause suffering and he did it anyway.

To be fair at the end of it all he didn't do it, his better side won out.

20 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I’m female and I agree with your position on this topic . Tyrion is not written as a traditional hero but as a flawed character who grew up in an environment of hate and ridicule, and who feels no woman can love him for himself (especially after the Tysha incident). Before his downward spiral he tries very hard to fight his baser instincts and do what is right.

We especially see that in this chapter, with him being torn between his family and his basic lust and his kindness and empathy.

[teej6]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

One relevant issue is this.

Tyrion may have treated Sansa more decently than the other Lannisters, but she was still his captive.  He served at the highest level, in a government that imprisoned Sansa against her will.  He did so willingly, for the sake of his own ambition.

What else do you expect from Tyrion? He is still a Lannister. Did you expect him to free Sansa when his family was at war with hers? [Actually, IIRC, he did ask Tywin to send Sansa back to her mother when Tywin asked him to marry Sansa] And Catelyn had just recently arrested him for a charge that he was totally innocent of and he almost died in the process.

Looking from the Starks POV and as readers of the book we can judge the Starks as noble and fighting for a just cause but from Tyrion’s POV, he is defending his family’s interests. Whether he likes his family or not is besides the point. He is a Lannister and there’s no way you can fault him for holding Sansa hostage.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Heiresses do of course get kidnapped, and married by force, but even in-universe, that's a bad thing.

Sansa was not kidnapped but was held hostage because her family rebelled against the crown, which happened to be controlled by the Lannisters. Being held hostage is a totally acceptable practice in Westeros. As to marrying Sansa, the argument is that Tyrion didn’t have much of a choice in the matter. He may have been in a better position than Sansa to say no, but we can all agree that his position was also a difficult one.  

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, teej6 said:

 What people forget when they argue that he accepted to marry Sansa, a child hostage, is that he is a Lannister whether he likes his family or not. In the world he lives in, going against his family/ father is not an option for him. The only way in the end for him to severe his relationship with his abusive father was to kill him. In spite of Tyrion’s dislike of the situation, he is placed in a position where he has to consummate his marriage to Sansa in order to further his family’s and in some ways his own ambitions. He is also tempted by his baser instincts when he is alone with Sansa on their wedding night, which I think is a natural reaction for an ordinary man (maybe not the likes of noble Ned) in the world of Westeros. The merit in Tyrion’s character is not that he is noble, instead that he is a flawed character that is fighting his weaknesses and baser instincts to try and become a better person.

I totally understand why Tyrion married Sansa. I don't blame him for it. I just bring it up, when people say he was just as much forced as she was. And that's just not the case.

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In the world he lives in, going against his family/ father is not an option for him. The only way in the end for him to severe his relationship with his abusive father was to kill him. 

He does it though, when he keeps sleeping with Shae and brings her to the city. He even endangers her life doing it. And Jaime has done it before as well.

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In spite of Tyrion’s dislike of the situation, he is placed in a position where he has to consummate his marriage to Sansa in order to further his family’s and in some ways his own ambitions. 

He puts his own and his family's ambition before an innocent little girl's well-being, who he knows is afraid, still a child and all of this is cruel to her. Also the devil made me do it, is no good argument. He is now an adult and his father isn't holding a gun to his head. He doesn't even lie to his father to try to buy him and Sansa some time and to protect her, he doesn't even try to fake the wedding night. So what his father thinks can't be that important to him after all.

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He is also tempted by his baser instincts when he is alone with Sansa on their wedding night, which I think is a natural reaction for an ordinary man (maybe not the likes of noble Ned) in the world of Westeros. The merit in Tyrion’s character is not that he is noble, instead that he is a flawed character that is fighting his weaknesses and baser instincts to try and become a better person.

 

I don't understand, how you can be tempted by someone, who you know will suffer, if you do this, who is already suffering, who you know, is still is a child and forced into it, therefore not ready for any of it and you know beforehand this is cruel to her and she is repulsed by him. And he still molests and plans to rape her. His empathy for himself and all that he wants is definitely much stronger that his empathy for her. And given her situation, that just makes him a horrible person IMO.

I also don't think, that any good Westerosi man would be tempted by a scared forced child-bride. For sure not Jon, Robb, Sam, Davos. For most people fear and unwillingness is a turn off, not to mention the child part.

I also don't buy the "my instincts were just to strong, therefore I had to molest you"- excuse. Everyone can control their instincts we aren't animals and Tyrion also had enough time to think about and prepare for this night.

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flawed character who grew up in an environment of hate and ridicule, and who feels no woman can love him for himself 

 

A lot of people grow up like this and don't become abusers themselves. Most children, who have been abused in their childhood don't grow up to be abusers themselves. And most kids, who have been sexually abused, don't grow up to become sexual abusers.

[SeanF]

19 minutes ago, teej6 said:

What else do you expect from Tyrion? He is still a Lannister. Did you expect him to free Sansa when his family was at war with hers? [Actually, IIRC, he did ask Tywin to send Sansa back to her mother when Tywin asked him to marry Sansa] And Catelyn had just recently arrested him for a charge that he was totally innocent of and he almost died in the process.

Looking from the Starks POV and as readers of the book we can judge the Starks as noble and fighting for a just cause but from Tyrion’s POV, he is defending his family’s interests. Whether he likes his family or not is besides the point. He is a Lannister and there’s no way you can fault him for holding Sansa hostage.

Sansa was not kidnapped but was held hostage because her family rebelled against the crown, which happened to be controlled by the Lannisters. Being held hostage is a totally acceptable practice in Westeros. As to marrying Sansa, the argument is that Tyrion didn’t have much of a choice in the matter. He may have been in a better position than Sansa to say no, but we can all agree that his position was also a difficult one.  

Tyrion is not small fry, here.  He's acting Hand, then Master of Coin.  He's the second or third most important figure on the Lannister side.  He's willing to keep Sansa as a captive, in full knowledge that she is being abused, and will face further abuse, in the future. He tries to mitigate that abuse, so fair play for that, but he has to bear part of the responsibility for it.

IMHO, the treatment of Sansa is not the sort of treatment that would typically be handed down to highborn female prisoners.  People like Alicent Hightower and Queen Helaena were treated better by Rhaenyra.

[Nagini's Neville]

10 minutes ago, teej6 said:

What else do you expect from Tyrion? He is still a Lannister. Did you expect him to free Sansa when his family was at war with hers? [Actually, IIRC, he did ask Tywin to send Sansa back to her mother when Tywin asked him to marry Sansa] And Catelyn had just recently arrested him for a charge that he was totally innocent of and he almost died in the process. 

I think @SeanF is just pointing out, that this is a forced marriage and not an arranged one. And it is indeed a crime by Westerosi law, since the Lannisters executed her father based on being a traitor, which he wasn't and held her captive, based on that as well. It was Ned's right to arrange a marriage for Sansa and after him her brothers.

Also Tyrion did indeed promise Cat to send Sansa home.

16 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Sansa was not kidnapped but was held hostage because her family rebelled against the crown, which happened to be controlled by the Lannisters. Being held hostage is a totally acceptable practice in Westeros. 

She was held hostage based on a false accusation against her father, who the Lannisters murdered based on that.

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As to marrying Sansa, the argument is that Tyrion didn’t have much of a choice in the matter. He may have been in a better position than Sansa to say no, but we can all agree that his position was also a difficult one.  

 

If Tyrion would have refused, Tywin wouldn't have forced him. He manipulated Tyrion however into agreeing by making him feel like nobody would want him anyway and this would be the only chance for him to ever get a pretty wife and an estate. Tyrion thinks himself later, that he wants Sansa and WF. And he offers Sansa on their wedding day, that she could marry Lancel instead. He wouldn't have offered that, if he didn't think it was a possibility and he himself could say no. 

We also never know what would have happened, because he never refuses. If he absolutely didn't want to, he would have refused. I can't see him being "forced" to marry Lollys for example.

But we do know, what happened, when Sansa refused.

Also all of this is not forcing him to plan to rape and molest Sansa. I get why he married her, but he certainly wasn't forced to either, just pressured and nobody was there on their wedding night, he could have faked it from the get go and spared her a lot of trauma.

[teej6]

7 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I totally understand why Tyrion married Sansa. I don't blame him for it. I just bring it up, when people say he was just as much forced as she was. And that's just not the case.

He does it though, when he keeps sleeping with Shae and brings her to the city. He even endangers her life doing it. And Jaime has done it before as well.

He puts his own and his family's ambition before an innocent little girl's well-being, who he knows is afraid, still a child and all of this is cruel to her. Also the devil made me do it, is no good argument. He is now an adult and his father isn't holding a gun to his head. He doesn't even lie to his father to try to buy him and Sansa some time and to protect her, he doesn't even try to fake the wedding night. So what his father thinks can't be that important to him after all.

I don't understand, how you can be tempted by someone, who you know will suffer, if you do this, who is already suffering, who you know, is still is a child and forced into it, therefore not ready for any of it and you know beforehand this is cruel to her and she is repulsed by him. And he still molests and plans to rape her. His empathy for himself and all that he wants is definitely much stronger that his empathy for her. And given her situation, that just makes him a horrible person IMO.

I also don't think, that any good Westerosi man would be tempted by a scared forced child-bride. For sure not Jon, Robb, Sam, Davos. For most people fear and unwillingness is a turn off, not to mention the child part.

I also don't buy the "my instincts were just to strong, therefore I had to molest you"- excuse. Everyone can control their instincts we aren't animals and Tyrion also had enough time to think about and prepare for this night.

A lot of people grow up like this and don't become abusers themselves. Most children, who have been abused in their childhood don't grow up to be abusers themselves. And most kids, who have been sexually abused, don't grow up to become sexual abusers.

Again, you go on making your arguments as if Tyrion was a person living in the present time with liberal western world views and morals. In fact, in some societies even in the present day, girls as young as 12-13 are married to much older men. It is a repulsive thought for most people but morality is defined differently by different societies. What you and I find repulsive may not be considered immoral or repulsive in other cultures/ societies. In Martin’s world, it is perfectly acceptable to wed girls once they have flowered.

And you keep repeating the word “molested” when you refer to Tyrion groping Sansa. In in his view, he is trying to make out with his legally married wife who has just said her vows to him. Yes, he knows she doesn’t like him and she is young but in their world marriages among nobles are more often than not contracts made to further the families’ interests and the like/ dislike of the parties getting married is seldom a factor. It is normal for many wives not to like their husbands but they are expected to do their duty. For Tyrion to initiate physical intimacy is natural for him, the point is he stopped going further when he realized how uncomfortable she was. 

As to you argument about Shae, he has his affair with Shae in secret. He is not flaunting Shae in front of his father or openly disobeying him. He is afraid of the consequences if his father knew he disobeyed him and therefore makes every effort to hide his affair with Shae.

[teej6]

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Tyrion is not small fry, here.  He's acting Hand, then Master of Coin.  He's the second or third most important figure on the Lannister side.  He's willing to keep Sansa as a captive, in full knowledge that she is being abused, and will face further abuse, in the future. He tries to mitigate that abuse, so fair play for that, but he has to bear part of the responsibility for it.

IMHO, the treatment of Sansa is not the sort of treatment that would typically be handed down to highborn female prisoners.  People like Alicent Hightower and Queen Helaena were treated better by Rhaenyra.

Again, I repeat what do you expect Tyrion to do, even as Hand? Free Sansa? You can’t be serious. Sansa is a valuable hostage to his family who is in war with hers. And if you recall, Sansa’s abuse stopped once Tyrion became Hand. He puts a stop to it. Sansa’s abusive treatment is to be laid solely at Joffrey and Cersei’s feet. Even Tywin can’t be blamed for this. 

[Nagini's Neville]

54 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

To be fair at the end of it all he didn't do it, his better side won out.

You mean he didn't continue. He definitely did something. He sexually assaulted her. That's what he did and it's bad and traumatizing.

Also I just have a hard time empathizing with a guy, who is so tempted to rape an innocent young girl, who is completely powerless and has been already abused so much. 

[lomeren]

25 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Again, you go on making your arguments as if Tyrion was a person living in the present time with liberal western world views and morals. In fact, in some societies even in the present day, girls as young as 12-13 are married to much older men. It is a repulsive thought for most people but morality is defined differently by different societies. What you and I find repulsive may not be considered immoral or repulsive in other cultures/ societies. In Martin’s world, it is perfectly acceptable to wed girls once they have flowered.

And you keep repeating the word “molested” when you refer to Tyrion groping Sansa. In in his view, he is trying to make out with his legally married wife who has just said her vows to him. Yes, he knows she doesn’t like him and she is young but in their world marriages among nobles are more often than not contracts made to further the families’ interests and the like/ dislike of the parties getting married is seldom a factor. It is normal for many wives not to like their husbands but they are expected to do their duty. For Tyrion to initiate physical intimacy is natural for him, the point is he stopped going further when he realized how uncomfortable she was. 

As to you argument about Shae, he has his affair with Shae in secret. He is not flaunting Shae in front of his father or openly disobeying him. He is afraid of the consequences if his father knew he disobeyed him and therefore makes every effort to hide his affair with Shae.

Wow, thank you for putting this into greater context, I guess back in medieval times there was completely different understanding of relationships and this relationship tries to depict that.

[SeanF]

30 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Again, I repeat what do you expect Tyrion to do, even as Hand? Free Sansa? You can’t be serious. Sansa is a valuable hostage to his family who is in war with hers. And if you recall, Sansa’s abuse stopped once Tyrion became Hand. He puts a stop to it. Sansa’s abusive treatment is to be laid solely at Joffrey and Cersei’s feet. Even Tywin can’t be blamed for this. 

He could ensure that Sansa is treated with the same degree of respect as someone like Alicent Hightower or Queen Helaena;. he could offer her as part of an exchange of prisoners with the Starks.  He could refrain from marrying her.  He's a big boy.  These are all in accord with in-universe ethical standards.  This was a wedding at sword point, as far as Sansa was concerned.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Alicent Hightower or Queen Helaena

You do know that it's very likely the Brothel Queens story is real?

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, teej6 said:

Again, you go on making your arguments as if Tyrion was a person living in the present time with liberal western world views and morals. In fact, in some societies even in the present day, girls as young as 12-13 are married to much older men. It is a repulsive thought for most people but morality is defined differently by different societies. What you and I find repulsive may not be considered immoral or repulsive in other cultures/ societies. In Martin’s world, it is perfectly acceptable to wed girls once they have flowered.

And you keep repeating the word “molested” when you refer to Tyrion groping Sansa. In in his view, he is trying to make out with his legally married wife who has just said her vows to him. Yes, he knows she doesn’t like him and she is young but in their world marriages among nobles are more often than not contracts made to further the families’ interests and the like/ dislike of the parties getting married is seldom a factor. It is normal for many wives not to like their husbands but they are expected to do their duty. For Tyrion to initiate physical intimacy is natural for him, the point is he stopped going further when he realized how uncomfortable she was. 

As to you argument about Shae, he has his affair with Shae in secret. He is not flaunting Shae in front of his father or openly disobeying him. He is afraid of the consequences if his father knew he disobeyed him and therefore makes every effort to hide his affair with Shae.

I make arguments based on what Tyrion knows himself and how that contradicts with this behavior. And it is not mostly the age, even though I now hold that against him, since he repeatedly says himself: she is a child, she is too young- this is himself judging that, if I didn't know, he knew, I would understand. But he does see her as a child and too young. Bedding a child is not cool, even by Westeros' standards and the only person, who does it is Ramsey, that we know of in Westeros. Ned thought Sansa was to young to be engaged at 11, Lsya tells her, she is too young to be a mother and won't be one until many years from now, LF tells her, when she is 13, when she is older men will drown in her eyes.

The problem for me is the combination of everything together and that Tyrion is for sure well aware of it all.

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And you keep repeating the word “molested” when you refer to Tyrion groping Sansa.

yes, because, that's what he did. I also say Robert raped Cersei. Aerys raped Rhaella. What do you call that? And if we judge everything by Westerosi standards basically nothing is wrong. Not even what the mountain does, because, that's what his leash lord encourages him to do, isn't it? Husbands can rape and beat their wives and we shouldn't judge, because, that's what they are allowed to do in their culture? (it's a rhetoric question)

 

Back to Tyrion. My main problem is his level of knowledge about the situation and how all of this will be for Sansa. He is not a Khal Drogo type, who doesn't know any better, he isn't dumb, he is capable of empathy. He always proclaims to have a heart for the bastards, cripples and broken things.

 

All of this happens before he gropes her breast.

"That seems singularly cruel. Even for you, Father.” 

"She is no more than a child.”

"Soft-spoken sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces."

“How old are you, Sansa?” asked Tyrion, after a moment. “Thirteen,” she said, “when the moon turns.” “Gods have mercy.” The dwarf took another swallow of wine. “Well, talk won’t make you older.

“You’re a child,” he said. She covered her breasts with her hands. “I’ve flowered.” “A child,” he repeated, “but I want you. Does that frighten you, Sansa?” “Yes.”

He was looking at her, waiting for her to say something, but all her words had withered. She could only stand there trembling. When he finally realized that she had no answer for him, Tyrion Lannister drained the last of his wine. “I understand,” he said bitterly. “Get in the bed, Sansa.

Again Tyrion is not dumb, he knows Cersei, he knows his father, he knows Sansa is completely forced into this, so her saying her vows to him means absolutely nothing, she has no choice, those are her abusers, Tyrion knows that, he knows what Joffrey did to to Sansa. She also cries during the ceremony and refuses to bend the knee for him, it's the only sign of protest she has.

So if Tyrion doesn't know, that she is 100% not consenting, he has suddenly turned into as dumb as he was on the show.

He knows she loses her family forever, he knows Ned Stark was executed unjustly and therefore is daughter imprisoned unjustly and it should be her family's right to give her away in marriage. I understand why he married her, but it's still unjust and he must know how this is absolutely devastating and horrible for her. Now she is not only forever separated from her family, but is also helping her and her family's enemies to bring down her own. 

Tyrion is aware of the whole situation, that's why he calls it cruel, as you can see in the quotes "singularly cruel". He also knows she is too young, he judges that himself constantly and that he wouldn't be someone she wants in general "loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces." even before he marries her and on their wedding night this is confirmed to him, she is even repulsed by him (“I understand,” he said bitterly.)

All of this combined is not simply "not really liking a guy"

He has all this knowledge and she even tells him with words, that she is afraid, which he ignores to talk about his own insecurities. Even with all this knowledge he still tells her to lay on the bed, doesn't allow her to cover herself and gropes her.

Tyrion knows this is wrong, but he doesn't care enough for her to not do in.

I'm judging him by his own standards and knowledge not by the one's of Westeros' society, even though I'm pretty sure, unjustly murdering the father of a child, who happens to be a lord and then forcing her to into marriage, with someone of your choosing isn't lawful in Westeros and therefore touching her sexually isn't either.

 

After the wedding night, more of Tyrion showing us he acknowledges Sansa is a child:

“Sansa is too young.”

"I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is."

 

 

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As to you argument about Shae, he has his affair with Shae in secret. He is not flaunting Shae in front of his father or openly disobeying him. He is afraid of the consequences if his father knew he disobeyed him and therefore makes every effort to hide his affair with Shae.

 

 

Sure, but if they are discovered she is dead. And that's always a possibility. Varys already knew about Shae.

He was afraid of his father finding out, but not afraid enough to not do it all together. I'd say he is pretty daring given the fact, that someone's life is on the line.

But that only gives me more reason to ask: Why not pretend they consummated, why not fake the wedding night?

And I wouldn't call it an affair. He is still paying her after all.

[SeanF]

31 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

You do know that it's very likely the Brothel Queens story is real?

Even if Mysaria suggested it, the proposal was not acted upon.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 hours ago, lomeren said:

Wow, thank you for putting this into greater context, I guess back in medieval times there was completely different understanding of relationships and this relationship tries to depict that.

nah, even in the Middle Ages this is a forced- child marriage against the law, since her father was no traitor, therefore executed unjustly and the king is not the rightful king, but a bastard. She has a brother and a mother she rightfully "belongs to". And they didn't consummate marriages with 12-13 year old girls, because they hit puberty on average 2 year later, than today and getting pregnant at such a young age was very dangerous (and still is) since the body is not ready at 12/13 to carry a child and there were too may childbed deaths already. Therefore the husbands would usually wait a couple of years with the consummation.

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, teej6 said:

Again, I repeat what do you expect Tyrion to do, even as Hand? Free Sansa? You can’t be serious. Sansa is a valuable hostage to his family who is in war with hers. And if you recall, Sansa’s abuse stopped once Tyrion became Hand. He puts a stop to it. Sansa’s abusive treatment is to be laid solely at Joffrey and Cersei’s feet. Even Tywin can’t be blamed for this. 

Tyrion is aware of the possibility, that Joffrey could mistreat Sansa even before he walks in one of her beatings by coincidence "I suspect Martell will treat Myrcella more kindly than Joffrey has treated Sansa Stark." 

Again he is not dumb, dunno why everyone is suddenly constantly assuming that.

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And if you recall, Sansa’s abuse stopped once Tyrion became Hand. He puts a stop to it. Sansa’s abusive treatment is to be laid solely at Joffrey and Cersei’s feet. Even Tywin can’t be blamed for this. 

This is absolutely not true, Sansa was still beaten up by the KGs for half of Clash, while Tyrion was already Hand (which he became in the beginning of clash) and was in the city for a long while. He didn't bother to check, if she wasn't abused until he accidentally walked into one of her beatings.

He didn't go out of his way to make sure she was save beforehand.

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What you and I find repulsive may not be considered immoral or repulsive in other cultures/ societies.

Of course I know that, I'm not dumb. That being said child marriages are always immoral, unethical and abusive, because the children always suffer, no matter how it's perceives.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Tyrion has now full authority over her, he is aware, that you can wait with the consummation, that is done in universe all the time, he is aware how horrible all of this is for her.

Is it done in universe all the time? What other weddings have we seen where waiting to consummate the marriage has happened?

Tommen/Margaery because Tommen is 9-10 years old at the time. Renly/Margaery maybe? Jaehaerys was married to Alysanne but didn't sleep with her because he said she was too young. But he was also the king, so he could do as he pleased.

Who else? 

Anyway, I should know better than to get involved in a thread that's about Sansa. As much as I like the character, I just can't deal with her threads. Somehow the words always end up being twisted around. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Is it done in universe all the time? What other weddings have we seen where waiting to consummate the marriage has happened?

What other weddings have we seen in Westeros, where the marriage to a 12 year old was consummated right away, except for poor Jeyne Poole? I can't think of a single one. The girls are all 15, 16 or above (Margaery to Renly, Jeyne W. Cersei, Catlyn, Lysa, Roslin, Alys Karstark, Lyanna (even though not married)) maybe I forget about a 14 year old. But there is no consummated marriage to to a 12/13 year old and even Tyrion himself says and thinks repeatedly it's too young.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Absolutely. There are plenty who wouldn't have. 

To be fair though, none of them have been put in the situation Tyrion was in. He is in a position where he cannot really contribute to furthering his families name in any meaningful way on several fronts. His father is a dick & refuses to see him as his rightful heir even though he is, he is always going to have a hard time finding a marriage, even one without political gain, because he is a dwarf. He was commanded to take this opportunity to help his family in a very large way & commanded to consummate the marriage. He was able to refuse but he is passing up an opportunity that is not likely to present itself again. 

I'm not trying to justify anything he did, only saying put in the same position some of the others may have done the same. 

hard for me to see, how Ned, Davos, Jon, Robb and Sam would behave like this in the same position. Jon didn't even kill Ygritte, who was his enemy.

Also consummation as proof is just bs anyway. He still could have at least done it differently, if it was so important to him to help his family, which I believe it wasn't anyway.

He mainly took the opportunity, because he wanted a pretty wife and WF and Tywin made him believe he would never get it otherwise.