Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

[Nagini's Neville]

11 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Dany's mother. She gave birth to Rhaegar at either 13 or 14, which means she was married either at 12 or 13. Yes, Aerys wasn't that much older than her, but that birth might have left very lasting long effects on her.

okay, thank you. But that's only one example among so many at least 15 year old brides. So IMO 12/13 doesn't seem usual.

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Yes, there is. Dany herself was married at the age of 13 to Khal Drogo who was 30 years old. And he does have sex with her and it doesn't matter how ambiguous the writer decided to make it. It was dubious consent. 

Yes, but that's in Dothraki culture, not Westeros.

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I absolutely and completely acknowledge that all this stuff is over the top wrong and extremely uncomfortable. But I don't think judging the stuff in the books to our modern standards is the way to go.

I don't it's just the combination of a lot of things, that make me judge Tyrion's actions here. Mostly, that himself acknowledges himself the wrongness of it all and how it's cruel to her and how she is still a child. It's everything together. 

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But did you know there are states in the US where 12 year olds are allowed to get married?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/02/10/why-does-the-united-states-still-let-12-year-old-girls-get-married/

 

No, I didn't know that. And I'm also not American, so I sadly can't open that link. It's really weird to me in the US. In a lot of states the age of constant is quite high 18 or 17, but you can marry super young? It doesn't make sense LOL Like driving at 16, but drinking at 21. 

I'm not arguing that, that doesn't happen a lot still in the world everywhere. I absolutely know that. The age of consent is 14 in my country, but that's generally frowned upon.

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This part below is about something that's happened in France recently with one of its more "celebrated" authors.

  Reveal hidden contents

There's been massive controversy in France recently with a writer named Gabriel Matzneff who wrote about sleeping with girls and boys both, in their very early teens. He is in his early 80's now. No one as much as blinked at his writings and the things he said. Only one person took him to task sometime in the 90s, I think, about how what he's doing was wrong, he was pretty much a piece of shit for doing so. Recently, one of his victims wrote her own story about it, and now, decades later, he is being investigated for rape and a slew of other charges. He fled France like the big coward that he is and is hiding out in Italy and saying that people just wanna destroy his life. And his preying on these children happened within the last 50 years. You should look it up, see how society had no reaction to the vile things he was doing, or how society was not brave enough to tell him he was a pedo, except for the woman who took him to task. And how now he is living his reckoning because of the changes that happened in our society in the wake of the #metoo movement.

 

Thank you! There are a millions of stories like this, in the 70s a lot of rockstars used to sleep with 14 year olds, there are frightening docus about the child-groupies of certain rock bands out there and how they were taken advantage of. Roman Polanski is another good example, he even admitted to it and still the guy makes movie after movie and so many famous actors want to act in them.

Adults have always abused children and probably will keep on do it forever.

[teej6]

8 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Could you please stop putting words in my mouth of what I want, what you hearing me say, what i want GRRM to do. This is the definition of strawman. Maybe you could just read what I'm writing for a change.

I don't know what you want from me. You've stated something that wasn't true, therefore I've corrected you and IMO it's supporting @SeanF's arguments very well, that's all. You said Sansa isn't abused anymore after Tyrion arrives and that's obviously not true and if GRRM wanted us to believe, that things in that regard had changed for Sansa now that Tyrion was there, he obviously wouldn't have written that scene. In his 7 chapters Tyrion doesn't go out of his way to specifically protect Sansa and she is still been beaten up, it's half of the book, he has been the Hand for months now - that's just a fact. I'm not even criticizing him, I'm just observing it. And FYI I usually don't wish for certain things in books or want things to change, just because something isn't going so well. And I for sure don't want anything to change in Clash.

I’m not “putting words in your mouth”. I’m interpreting your statements as I see/ read. Either I’m reading it completely wrong or your are not very clear in your argument. You stated: 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I just mentioned that Tyrion doesn't go out of his way to make sure she won't be abused, before he walks in on her beatings and that's exactly what happened. Even though he suspects Joffrey might not treat her well. "I suspect Martell will treat Myrcella more kindly than Joffrey has treated Sansa Stark." 

You also stated in our earlier posts that the beatings continue well into ACOKs. I stated that Sansa was beaten only in Sansa 3. To which you referred to a text in Sansa 2 where she is bruised due to a bearing after Tyrion’s arrival. This still doesn’t refute the point I was making that Tyrion put a stop to Sansa’s abuse when he could. He stopped it in Sansa’s third chapter in the book. The fact that it didn’t happen in an earlier chapter in the book is what’s bothering you. Tyrion stopped the abuse as soon as he practically could. The fact that we don’t have have Tyrion stepping into save Sansa in an earlier chapter does not translate to Tyrion didn’t care or “go out of his way to make sure she won’t be abused”.  He stopped it when he witnessed it first hand. And if you recall, there was no reason for him to be in the throne room. He came there, saved Sansa and left with her. He made a public display of disciplining his nephew the King at no small peril to his life. And after that Sansa is never physically abused by Joffrey or any of his minions.

Anyway, I’m done with this back and forth. This is not getting us anywhere. 

[teej6]

19 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Abuse comes in many forms.  She's abused relentlessly by Cersei, even though Cersei does not hit her.

A life with Tyrion would have been a nightmare for Sansa.  Once she had borne a child or two, the Lannisters would have had no more reason to allow her to live.

And that is why I said physical abuse. Cersei keeps being Cersei and there is little Tyrion can do about it. 

Do you really think that Tyrion would have allowed Sansa to be killed once she has given him kids? The same Tyrion who wouldn’t finger Sansa (although he had no reason to trust her) when he was accused of regicide. If so, we have very differing views of Tyrion. 

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, teej6 said:

And that is why I said physical abuse. Cersei keeps being Cersei and there is little Tyrion can do about it. 

Do you really think that Tyrion would have allowed Sansa to be killed once she has given him kids? The same Tyrion who wouldn’t finger Sansa (although he had no reason to trust her) when he was accused of regicide. If so, we have very differing views of Tyrion. 

If it's a choice between that, and ending his political career, well, that's a choice that makes itself.

[Nagini's Neville]

5 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I’m not “putting words in your mouth”. I’m interpreting your statements as I see/ read. Either I’m reading it completely wrong or your are not very clear in your argument. You stated: 

You also stated in our earlier posts that the beatings continue well into ACOKs. I stated that Sansa was beaten only in Sansa 3. To which you referred to a text in Sansa 2 where she is bruised due to a bearing after Tyrion’s arrival. This still doesn’t refute the point I was making that Tyrion put a stop to Sansa’s abuse when he could. He stopped it in Sansa’s third chapter in the book. The fact that it didn’t happen in an earlier chapter in the book is what’s bothering you. Tyrion stopped the abuse as soon as he practically could. The fact that we don’t have have Tyrion stepping into save Sansa in an earlier chapter does not translate to Tyrion didn’t care or “go out of his way to make sure she won’t be abused”.  

sure it does. It happened by coincidence. This is not what "going out of your way" means.

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He stopped it when he witnessed it first hand. And if you recall, there was no reason for him to be in the throne room.

 

because as soon as he entered, he had to take care of an abused little girl. 

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He came there, saved Sansa and left with her. He made a public display of disciplining his nephew the King at no small peril to his life. And after that Sansa is never physically abused by Joffrey or any of his minions.

 

How do you know he came in there to specifically to save Sansa? But even if he did, he stumbled upon her being abused by accident- being publicly abused is of course very flashy. And he was awesome in that scene- never disputed that. But that is still not what "going out of one's way" means. It happened by accident, it wasn't intentionally making sure, that she wasn't abused, while nothing happened. 

[teej6]

Just now, SeanF said:

If it's a choice between that, and ending his political career, well, that's a choice that makes itself.

Nope, disagree. Tyrion is many things but he is not going to kill his wife and why would Tywin want that. As I said, he didn’t try and finger Sansa when his life depended on it, then why would he kill her. What political career would require him to kill his wife?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

18 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yes, but that's in Dothraki culture, not Westeros.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. For one, we don't really know what's in the Dothraki culture. We know what the marriage rituals are, but we haven't seen any other khaleesis in the story thus far, so it's really difficult to tell, although it wouldn't be super surprising. But if Sansa is married off at 12 with the expectation that she will consummate her marriage, and Dany is married off at 13 half a world away using the same argument that is used for Sansa, that she is flowered, therefore it's all good, then I think that Essos and Westeros are rather similar when it comes to these advantageous marriages.

Helaena Targaryen was married off at 13 and had her twins less than a year later. Coryanne Wylde had a bastard at the age of 13. And I could have sworn there's a girl who died at the age of twelve while giving birth. These characters are in Fire and Blood. I'm fairly certain there are more than the ones I named. If anything, it might show some sort of evolution in Westeros when comparing to the current story. 

[SeanF]

12 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Nope, disagree. Tyrion is many things but he is not going to kill his wife and why would Tywin want that. As I said, he didn’t try and finger Sansa when his life depended on it, then why would he kill her. What political career would require him to kill his wife?

Tyrion would not have to do the deed,.  Even Tywin would not be that callous.  He kept Tyrion out of the loop when planning the Red Wedding.

[teej6]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

He kept Tyrion out of the loop when planning the Red Wedding.

Precisely my point. Tywin knew that Tyrion would never agree to the RW and he couldn’t trust Tyrion not to say anything to anyone about it. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

We agree on much but the definition of forced. Yes, perhaps forced is too strong a word to describe the untenable situation Tyrion found himself in.

Absolutely. Tyrion is in a predicament any which way he turns. He had no truly good choices. He took the one that was the best for himself & his family, which I would do also. 

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Martin implies that everyone has a choice. Like Tyrion in one of his Essos chapters states, the slaves had a choice too, they could have chosen to die instead of being a slave. They chose bondage over death.

Right, that's the kind of choice that I say is no choice at all. 

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

In Tyrion’s case, it’s not so drastic a choice, but the options to him are accepting a bad situation or else being in a worse position. You can call it coercion or bullying or persuasion, but Tyrion was dealt a very bad hand and tried to make the best of it.

Absolutely, I would agree to call it coercion, bullying, & persuasion. But to differentiate it from people who truly have no choice but to accept their circumstances or die, I don't call it forced. Either way, it seems we agree as to the extent of Tyrion's complicity & the fact that he wasn't presented with any "good" or "holy" options. 

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

I disagree with you that Tyrion would have faced no consequence had he not agreed to marry Sansa. I can’t say for sure what Tywin would have done, but I don’t see a situation where everything would have gone back to as they were had Tyrion disobeyed Tywin.

It's certainly possible that you are correct, I'm going off of what Tywin tells Tyrion he would do - marry her to someone else. That in itself isn't much of a consequence for Tyrion. I could agree that Tywin would probably find some other way to "punish" him but I don't think it would be anything too outrageous - not death, or torture, or physical harm anyway. 

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

The way I see it is that Tywin could exert more pressure in getting Tyrion to marry Sansa than in getting Tyrion to consummate the wedding. And in Tywin’s eyes, once he has secured the marriage, he is not anticipating the Lannisters defeat or Sansa escaping the marriage and her fate as Tyrion’s wife. He would prefer for his son to consummate the marriage but he doesn’t suspect that not doing so in the immediate future will in any way change the tide against the Lannisters. Through the marriage he secured his initial goal of disrupting the Tyrells’ plans and ambitions and he feels that eventually Tyrion will put a seed in Sansa and claim the North. So the marriage was more imperative to Tywin.

Makes sense. He does want him to consummate it though, so there is some fear of what may or may not become of the marriage if Tyrion doesn't consummate it. 

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

As I’ve said several times on this thread, Tyrion is not written as the noble hero, he is not Ned or Jon, and to compare him to these characters is disingenuous (I’m not saying you are). He is raised by a father who is a terrible role model but despite that comes out a better man. He is one of the characters in the series who clearly embodies Faulkner’s “human heart in conflict with itself” narrative. 

For sure, Tyrion is written magnificently. I think it will be very interesting to see where the rest of the journey takes him. He is never going to be Ned the honorable, but he may very well be Tyrion the Good... er.. or mostly good LOL 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

49 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Nope, disagree. Tyrion is many things but he is not going to kill his wife and why would Tywin want that. As I said, he didn’t try and finger Sansa when his life depended on it, then why would he kill her. What political career would require him to kill his wife?

I agree Tyrion would not try to kill his wife nor that Tywin has any reason to do that presently, but if, after Sansa produced some heirs, Tywin decided he would rather remove Sansa from the situation to avoid any uprising around any "Stark" other than his little Stark/Lannister grandbabies, there wouldn't be much Tyrion could do about it. He wasn't able to stop what happened to Tysha. He would be in a better position as Lord of WF to protect her, would have armed men at his disposal etc but I don't think Tywin would announce he was sending someone to kill her either so much of it would be left to luck. 

[SeanF]

35 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree Tyrion would not try to kill his wife nor that Tywin has any reason to do that presently, but if, after Sansa produced some heirs, Tywin decided he would rather remove Sansa from the situation to avoid any uprising around any "Stark" other than his little Stark/Lannister grandbabies, there wouldn't be much Tyrion could do about it. He wasn't able to stop what happened to Tysha. He would be in a better position as Lord of WF to protect her, would have armed men at his disposal etc but I don't think Tywin would announce he was sending someone to kill her either so much of it would be left to luck. 

Robb and Catelyn feared Sansa would be killed after bearing heirs.  Would her death have caused Tyrion, as Lord of Winterfell, to break with his father?  I have my doubts.

That said, I can see advantage to Tywin in keeping Sansa alive, too. I could imagine him professing shock st the Red Wedding, and throwing the Freys under the bus, to appease his son's and good-daughter's Bannermen.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Robb and Catelyn feared Sansa would be killed after bearing heirs.  Would her death have caused Tyrion, as Lord of Winterfell, to break with his father?  I have my doubts.

Yeah, I'm not sure about that. It would likely depend on a number of things I suppose, firstly how he felt about Sansa. What Tywin did do Tysha didn't cause him to break with Tywin but he was a child then & he did end up killing him for it, among other things. I could see a second wife of his being taken from him sending him over the edge. So I suppose it could go either way. 

 

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That said, I can see advantage to Tywin in keeping Sansa alive, too. I could imagine him professing shock st the Red Wedding, and throwing the Freys under the bus, to appease his son's and good-daughter's Bannermen.

Absolutely. 

 

[corbon]

18 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But to get back to the question, that I now have to phrase more carefully: You say Tyrion was just doing his job and is therefore less to blame for his actions, is this correct? If not why even mention it?

I answered this three times yesterday, and it got lost every time.
I don't want to restart the conversation with you. Its moved on, it was never a fair discussion and it clearly doesn't help either of us. But I do want to just answer this part.
1. I never said he was just doing his job. Its a complex and multilayered situation.
2. I never said he is therefore less to blame, because it was his job.
3. The reason I brought up that it was his job is because you asked why he went that far before he stopped. Again, the reasons are multilayered and complex. But one of the reasons is it was actually his job to consummate the marriage - whether he wanted to or not. You may think consummation is a bullshit thing, but it very much isn't in their world and culture, probably by law. Their marriage can be declared void if it has not been consummated.

[Nagini's Neville]

 

9 minutes ago, corbon said:

I answered this three times yesterday, and it got lost every time.
I don't want to restart the conversation with you. Its moved on, it was never a fair discussion and it clearly doesn't help either of us. But I do want to just answer this part.
1. I never said he was just doing his job. Its a complex and multilayered situation.
2. I never said he is therefore less to blame, because it was his job.
3. The reason I brought up that it was his job is because you asked why he went that far before he stopped. Again, the reasons are multilayered and complex. But one of the reasons is it was actually his job to consummate the marriage - whether he wanted to or not. You may think consummation is a bullshit thing, but it very much isn't in their world and culture, probably by law. Their marriage can be declared void if it has not been consummated.

 Dear corbon, 

I'm pretty passionate about this whole subject, but it has definitely nothing to do with you personally. But for some reason I feel like you wanted to insinuate that from the start, I don't really know why and I don't think it was fair to me, I was just arguing my points.

I was just saying the consummation is bs line to L<3R in a joking way, because she ultimately knows where I'm coming from. Of course I know it is important in universe. 

Thank you for that explanation, that makes actually a lot of sense, since he continued after she was clearly repulsed and afraid. I just wished he had put her needs and well-being sooner before anything else, especially given, that it was a forced marriage and she was so young. But I'm repeating myself. 

I also don't understand, how this was an unfair discussion, but oh well   No need to tell me you don't want to restart the conversation.

Take care!

[Sigella]

On 2/9/2020 at 11:14 AM, SeanF said:

Sansa is noble, which means Tyrion thinks of her as a fellow human being.  He doesn't view the Eastern slaves in the same light.

Nah, Tyrion isn't snobby like that. I think its more related to Tywin already having made Tyrion rape his wife once before and the trauma from that.

If he thought of Sansa's feelings he wouldn't have taken it as far as he did. 

[corbon]

9 hours ago, Sigella said:

If he thought of Sansa's feelings he wouldn't have taken it as far as he did. 

Everything I read in that chapter tells me that Tyrion did think of Sansa's feelings, and even put them ahead of his own, every step of the way. That didn't stop him having his own feelings, and regarding them too, but at many steps of action he put her feelings ahead of his own. Sansa only once did the reverse, when she knelt for the kiss.
Thats not a surprise. Tyrion is an adult, even if a damaged one, and cares for her. Sansa is a child and far too miserable (for very good reason!) to care at all for him. 
No one can blame her.

But one can point out that there are two sides in every situation. Looking at everything from 100% one side and utterly ignoring the other side will never produce a fair analysis.

I wonder how many have ignored or forgotten this:

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It had been the Imp who saved her from a beating that day, the same man who was waiting for her now. He is not so bad as the rest of them, she told herself…

Tyrion wore a doublet of black velvet covered with golden scrollwork, thigh-high boots that added three inches to his height, a chain of rubies and lions’ heads. But the gash across his face was raw and red, and his nose was a hideous scab. “You are very beautiful, Sansa,” he told her.

“It is good of you to say so, my lord.” She did not know what else to say. Should I tell him he is handsome? He’ll think me a fool or a liar. She lowered her gaze and held her tongue.

“My lady, this is no way to bring you to your wedding. I am sorry for that. And for making this so sudden, and so secret. My lord father felt it necessary, for reasons of state. Else I would have come to you sooner, as I wished.” He waddled closer. “You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce.”

I don’t want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas, I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge, and sons named Eddard and Bran and Rickon. But then she remembered what Dontos had told her in the godswood. Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, it’s not me they want, only my claim. “You are kind, my lord,” she said, defeated. “I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands.”

 

[Sigella]

53 minutes ago, corbon said:

Everything I read in that chapter tells me that Tyrion did think of Sansa's feelings, and even put them ahead of his own, every step of the way. That didn't stop him having his own feelings, and regarding them too, but at many steps of action he put her feelings ahead of his own. Sansa only once did the reverse, when she knelt for the kiss.
Thats not a surprise. Tyrion is an adult, even if a damaged one, and cares for her. Sansa is a child and far too miserable (for very good reason!) to care at all for him. 
No one can blame her.

But one can point out that there are two sides in every situation. Looking at everything from 100% one side and utterly ignoring the other side will never produce a fair analysis.

I wonder how many have ignored or forgotten this:

 

Ok but your qoute is about the wedding.

If he’d only marry her and wait a few years for bedding related activities it’d be a different different conversation.

[Mystical]

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Everything I read in that chapter tells me that Tyrion did think of Sansa's feelings, and even put them ahead of his own, every step of the way. That didn't stop him having his own feelings, and regarding them too, but at many steps of action he put her feelings ahead of his own. Sansa only once did the reverse, when she knelt for the kiss.
Thats not a surprise. Tyrion is an adult, even if a damaged one, and cares for her. Sansa is a child and far too miserable (for very good reason!) to care at all for him. 
No one can blame her.

But one can point out that there are two sides in every situation. Looking at everything from 100% one side and utterly ignoring the other side will never produce a fair analysis.

I wonder how many have ignored or forgotten this:

 

It's not just about the wedding but the bedding ceremony. It's literally the topic title. And during the bedding/wedding parts in the books it's made very clear that Tyrion knows...

1) She is a child.

2) She is a prisoner of his family and therefor him as well.

3) His family has killed hers and is still actively trying to kill the rest of f them (which also clears the line of succession for his and Sansa's possible child).

4) His family ordered her abuse.

5) That her miserable lot goes far beyond the typical arranged marriage, due to points 1-4.

It's also made clear that...

1) Tyrion wants Winterfell.

2) Tyrion is a huge classist and only wants a beautiful wife with the right name. Minor houses and average looking or comely looking women need not apply.

3) He never bothers to help better Sansa's position (warning her about the wedding, making sure she isn't beaten, helping her escape etc.)

4) He wants Sansa sexually despite her being a child.

5) He would have gone through with raping his 12 year old child prisoner bride if her revulsion at the prospect hadn't triggered his own issues.

6) He didn't have to marry her.

Sorry but 100% of my empathy lies with the abused and used 12 year old child prisoner bride and not with the guy who didn't have to marry her, is a borderline pedophile, who didn't lift a finger to help her (coming across one of her public beatings by accident doesn't count), who is helping eradicating her family and who is also a misogynist and classist.

But that's just me.

[corbon]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Ok but your qoute is about the wedding.

If he’d only marry her and wait a few years for bedding related activities it’d be a different different conversation.

In their culture, and I suspect law, a wedding needs to be consummated to be finalised. And this is a political/dynastic wedding. For those reasons it is going to be finalised so that it can't be broken.
Sansa is in fact a woman, in these terms, for all that she is still psychologically a child. She also looks like a woman, not a child. She is, unfortunately, one of those kids who looks 12 going on 18, rather than 12 going on 11. She is in fact the very personification of feminine beauty in their culture. 
The price for all that wealth and privilege is that you necessarily don't get to pick whom you marry. And thus sleep with. Sansa knew and understood that.

He gave her an opportunity to cancel the whole thing and marry someone she might prefer more (he didn't have the power to give her real choice).
He protected her from the traditional bedding ceremony (and the predator-in-chief) at great risk and cost to himself.
She assented, limited choice or not, at each step along the way.
And in the end, when her revulsion (and just as much, uncertainty at what to do next) overcame her deliberate conscious choices, he stopped. He gave her that time, even though he was not supposed to. And even at the stated by her risk of there never being a change in their relationship, at the ultimate rejection she gave him, personally, uniquely. He still gave her that.

I cannot see a single time on that whole day that he did not put her needs above his own. 
Even the uncovered nakedness. No doubt he enjoyed it in part, very few men would not in part - because of how she looks and what she represents, not because she is in fact only 12, and completely 12 on the inside, which isn't visual. But I don't think, given the rest of the day and what follows, that it was done for his pleasure in truth. It was to force her to face what was happening. To give her a chance to try and make something good out of the bad. It also gave her the gift of exposing his vulnerability and weakness.

He could very easily have just followed along the day's pre-ordained and inescapable path, married her, bedded her, gotten much of what he wanted. He didn't follow that path at any step along the way.

Instead, he protected her as best he could throughout the day. And beyond. He's giving her those few years you just asked for, even in the explicit rejection she gave him that those few years might stretch forever. He's still giving them to her.

I suspect its actually this event, more even than his conviction for Joffrey's murder and the conversation with and murder of his father, that pushes him into such a dark and destructive path that he follows later.