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Alyn Oakenfist

Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

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Just a couple of observations.

I do think as a woman, it's probably easier for me to put myself into Sansa's shoes than it is into Tyrion's and Sansa's situation as a 12 year old hostage is easier to sympathise with. This is not a normal arranged marriage done with the consent and for the benefit of Sansa's family. Instead the marriage is intended to make her a permanent hostage of her family's enemies.

I'm not really comfortable with the idea of Sansa being described as a woman (12 going on 18 as Corbon has put it). She is a child entering the changes wrought by puberty, which is not the same thing as being a woman - as Tyrion himself recognises. It's possible that Tyrion responds sexually to Sansa in part because the last time that he had a wife, she was not much older than Sansa. What he wants is the relationship that he initially believed he had with Tysha when he was only Sansa's age himself.

I agree with Lyanna<3Rhaegar that Tyrion is still part of the Lannister family and it would have been pretty heroic of him to have put Sansa's interests first. Also, while it may seem like Tywin is giving Tyrion a choice, his conversation with Tyrion is very much a masterclass in manipulation and gaslighting, ending with an outright order for Tyrion to do as he's told. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mystical said:

If I'm nice to her now and not force her at this moment, we will be a lovey dovey couple in the future'.

Um, what’s so wrong with wanting to win her over?

 

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7 hours ago, corbon said:

It was Tyrion that thought of her though, and reminded the others.

yeah, but he also gives us the reason for that straight away. 

"Tyrion pressed blunt fingers into his throbbing temples.If Sansa Stark had come to harm, Jaime was as good as dead."

So he's not distressed because of her. You could also argue, he thought of his brother and reminded the others. I didn't think of Lollys for example.

The moment Cersei knew she was on board as well and we know for sure, Cersei doesn't care about Sansa. 

But I wouldn't hold that against Tyrion. It's his brother after all, the only person, who truly loves him, while Sansa is really nobody to him. Especially in comparison.
 

Quote

 

Fair cop guv. I don;t get everything right all the time. :)

 

That's totally fine, we all do that.:) And it personally totally annoys me, when ppl accuse me of strawman, because I misunderstand them (which happens quite a bit) or misremember something from the text. I don't think we should think the other person had bad intentions because of that. 

Quote

The tall thin is explicit later, in AFFC. 

do you have a quote for the thin tall part in AFFC please?

Quote

 

But if she's developing her chest, she'll also be developing her height. Growth spurts tend to go in sync.

 

She has definitely grown, that's normal for children however- doesn't mean, that she is tall for her age.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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38 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

actually think women tend to be not so honest about how much looks matter to them. I think there was a study about that not so long ago,  that actually detected there wasn't a big difference. maybe I find it.

Fair enough, the link you posted does seem to support that. 

Read this one though

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040316072953.htm

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45 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar that's not the study I'm referring to, but something in that direction.

https://www.livescience.com/58607-mens-looks-may-matter-more-than-personality.html

I see how it applies & I would agree women generally say looks matter less than they do but to be fair this study doesn't really go into how much looks matter vs personality & then the same for men. They were given a few personality traits listed next to a profile pic but that doesn't do much in the way of getting to know them. 

On the other side, the study I posted says both the men & the women claimed to be sexually aroused by the pics they were shown so I may be wrong in saying men are more aroused than women by visual stimulus. It does say, though, that our brains react differently to the visual stimulus, & that men seem to be more visually motivated. 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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26 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

I agree with Lyanna<3Rhaegar that Tyrion is still part of the Lannister family and it would have been pretty heroic of him to have put Sansa's interests first. Also, while it may seem like Tywin is giving Tyrion a choice, his conversation with Tyrion is very much a masterclass in manipulation and gaslighting, ending with an outright order for Tyrion to do as he's told. 

Tyrion is however not a young boy anymore and now also responsible for hims own actions. Tywin manipulates Tyrion into believing this is his only chance at getting an easte and a pretty wife, that nobody else would want him anyway and it works. But I can't see Tyrion not refusing, if he was to marry Lollys. He later says himself, that her wants WF and also Sansa, "child, woman or whatever she is".

And we never know what could have happened, if he really refused, because he doesn't even try (he only voices doubts). So his situation is absolutely not comparable with Sansa's in that regard. He also tells Sansa, she can choose Lancel and he wouldn't say so, if he didn't believe it was an option. I understand why Tyrion married her, since it is ultimately an act of war and they are at war with her family and she would have been married to a Lannister no matter what, but he is not a victim here. He didn't have to go through the humiliation of the wedding ceremony and being in the position to be unhappily married, Sansa had no choice at all.

But the problem is not that he married her, I understand that. The problem is, that he wanted to rape her and molested her in the process, even though he was fully aware of her situation. He knows she is a child, all of this is cruel to her and he is under no circumstances what she wants. She even tells him she is afraid and he just ignores it. If he wouldn't have done that, I'd have no criticism.

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7 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Tyrion is however not a young boy anymore and now also responsible for hims own actions. Tywin manipulates Tyrion into believing this is his only chance at getting an easte and a pretty wife, that nobody else would want him anyway and it works. But I can't see Tyrion not refusing, if he was to marry Lollys. He later says himself, that her wants WF and also Sansa, "child, woman or whatever she is".

And we never know what could have happened, if he really refused, because he doesn't even try (he only voices doubts). So his situation is absolutely not comparable with Sansa's in that regard. He also tells Sansa, she can choose Lancel and he wouldn't say so, if he didn't believe it was an option. I understand why Tyrion married her, since it is ultimately an act of war and they are at war with her family and she would have been married to a Lannister no matter what, but he is not a victim here. He didn't have to go through the humiliation of the wedding ceremony and being in the position to be unhappily married, Sansa had no choice at all.

But the problem is not that he married her, I understand that. The problem is, that he wanted to rape her and molested her in the process, even though he was fully aware of her situation. He knows she is a child, all of this is cruel to her and he is under no circumstances what she wants. She even tells him she is afraid and he just ignores it. If he wouldn't have done that, I'd have no criticism.

I agree that Tyrion's situation is not comparable to Sansa's. Although I tend to think that Tywin was offering the illusion of choice to his son, rather than an actual choice which is why he moved on to a direct order when Tyrion proved resistant. There was never any real chance of Tyrion being married to Lollys, that was said to manipulate Tyrion into the marriage with Sansa. We probably do have to factor the history of abuse and control between father and son into considering how possible it is for Tyrion to say no to Tywin.

I also take Corbon's point that the fucked-up social system these people are living under does make consummating a marriage into a duty and a requirement to complete the marriage. Hence why Catelyn remembers her wedding night to a complete stranger as having more of duty than passion and no one seems bothered that Edmure's bride is crying her eyes out when she's put into the marriage bed.

Don't think you're wrong though. Tyrion probably could and should have done better by Sansa, which is why he's a grey character.

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1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

I'm not really comfortable with the idea of Sansa being described as a woman (12 going on 18 as Corbon has put it). She is a child entering the changes wrought by puberty, which is not the same thing as being a woman - as Tyrion himself recognises. It's possible that Tyrion responds sexually to Sansa in part because the last time that he had a wife, she was not much older than Sansa. What he wants is the relationship that he initially believed he had with Tysha when he was only Sansa's age himself.

 

I think that the text says otherwise. She's not just 'budding' (I don't get how that works as a term, for developing breasts), she's developed well enough to have trouble lacing her jerkin top and to have stableboys staring open-mouthed at her cleavage.

12 going on 18 is purely physical, and deliberately exaggerated to make the point (and because in some cases 12 going on 16 could still be accused of pedophilia and distract from the point, which is that she is physically quite womanly, even though emotionally a child.

She is still a child, yes. She is going through changes yes. But whether its GRRM's writing at fault or not, some of those changes, the most visual ones, are much further ahead than others.

44 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That's totally fine, we all do that.:) And it personally totally annoys me, when ppl accuse me of strawman, because I misunderstand them (which happens quite a bit) or misremember something from the text. I don't think we should think the other person had bad intentions because of that. 

do you have a quote for the thin tall part in AFFC please?

Quote

AFFC Alayne I
Petyr put a finger under her chin. "That Royce glimpsed this pretty face I do not doubt, but it was one face in a thousand. A man fighting in a tourney has more to concern him than some child in the crowd. And at Winterfell, 
Sansa was a little girl with auburn hair. My daughter is a maiden tall and fair, and her hair is chestnut. 

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ACoK Sansa III
Sansa tried to hurry, but her fingers fumbled at buttons and knots. The Hound was always rough-tongued, but something in the way he had looked at her filled her with dread. Had Joffrey found out about her meetings with Ser Dontos? Please no, she thought as she brushed out her hair. Ser Dontos was her only hope. I have to look pretty, Joff likes me to look pretty, he's always liked me in this gown, this color. She smoothed the cloth down. The fabric was tight across her chest.

Quote

ASoS Sansa II

"Your bosom will be as lovely as the queen's," the old woman said as she looped her string around Sansa's chest. "You should not hide it so."

The comment made her blush. Yet the last time she'd gone riding, she could not lace her jerkin all the way to the top, and the stableboy gaped at her as he helped her mount. Sometimes she caught grown men looking at her chest as well, and some of her tunics were so tight she could scarce breathe in them.

Thin was supposed to be thing, BTW. :blush:

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1 minute ago, Wall Flower said:

I agree that Tyrion's situation is not comparable to Sansa's. Although I tend to think that Tywin was offering the illusion of choice to his son, rather than an actual choice which is why he moved on to a direct order when Tyrion proved resistant. There was never any real chance of Tyrion being married to Lollys, that was said to manipulate Tyrion into the marriage with Sansa. We probably do have to factor the history of abuse and control between father and son into considering how possible it is for Tyrion to say no to Tywin.

yeah, but he is also 26 now and has no problem going against his father's order, that imply he will kill someone, when it comes to Shae. There is a very high risk they'll be found out by someone and that someone could tell Cersei and his father.

Tyrion also doesn't even try to fake the wedding night, after he decides to not go through with it and doesn't even try to lie to his father about it, which shows that he is definitely capable of going against his father's will, if he wants to.

No I know there was never a real chance of Tyrion having to marry Lollys. I'm just saying, that if Tywin had demanded that of Tyrion, I can't picture him not putting up a fight about it. 

And Tyrion does tell us himself: He wants Sansa and WF

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30 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But the problem is not that he married her, I understand that. The problem is, that he wanted to rape her

He didn't want to rape her. He wanted her to make the best of a bad situation and join him as a partner. He opeed himself up to her and exposed his deepest vulnerabilities. He then accepted her choice not to make the best of it, accepted her utter rejection, and still protected her.
Desiring is not raping.

30 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

and molested her in the process,

I don't believe he even molested her. It reads to me as a gentle natural progression towards the inevitable next step. Its not a fondle. It is implicitly sexual due to the location, but its not for his pleasure, its a questioning move forward - they are supposed to be having sex next.
The proof that it was  a question for her, and he accepted her response, is what happened next. Her feelings overcame her conscious choices and he stopped immediately, even when she had actively given assent. 

 

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But ultimately he did think marrying her was the better choice for her as well.

And he knows that how? Because I'm sure if you asked Sansa, she would have said that her best option was Willas Tyrell. But Tyrion's daddy took that opportunity away from her.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He is a Lannister, not a Stark. He has to live with & be a part of the Lannister family. He owes no allegiance to Sansa or the Starks. It would have been great for Sansa if he decided he was just only going to operate in what is the best for Sansa but it wouldn't be in his own best interest.

So why am I supposed to give him any leeway? He is helping his family to destroy hers and advance himself over their dead bodies and making her his prisoner for life.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Who said he didn't have any way out? I certainly didn't. I specifically said he did so either you didn't read my post or you are deliberately making up arguments. 

You are backtracking. Because in the quote I responded to, you specifically said 'it wasn't really an offer'. I certainly didn't make that up.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know any other way to explain it to you. No one is "making it about gender". This is one part of explaining why Tyrion may have been sexually aroused by someone as young as Sansa. 

I never suggested the female gaze doesn't exist either, nothing remotely close to that.

Again, nothing close to what I argued. 

More backtracking. You specifically singled out the male gaze in your reply to me. If you didn't mean to make it gender specific or say there is a female gaze, then you shouldn't have singled out the male gaze and/or included that a female gaze exists. I can only reply to what you actually answer, not what you potentially leave unsaid.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I didn't ignore that point, I was only speaking to the other one. 

Yes, he has control over his actions. I never said otherwise.

Very convenient that every reply of yours is 'I never said otherwise'. How would I know what you would or wouldn't say otherwise? My reply is a direct response to what you wrote. Not what you potentially left out. And that's all I can do.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

"He would have not been the laughing stock of the court for his inability to take her maiden head."

Those are your words. Maybe you should read more carefully.

You accused me of insinuating that Tyrion had trouble performing and then went on about how we and everyone else knows he doesn't. When that wasn't even the point. The point was that the court knew he hadn't consummated the marriage and how that was amusement for the court. Which he could have spared himself from by not marrying her. You twisted what my original point was so the fault lies with you for not reading carefully.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That may be his only option (it wasn't, it was just the best option) & it may be selfish & ignoring that she is a child prisoner. The fact remains that as much as Sansa needed a hero, Tyrion isn't it. He had every reason to, and did, act in his own best interest.

So again I ask. Why am I supposed to feel sympathy for him? Or empathize with him? He only cared about himself and not about her at all, THE END. Which is the point you just made. But I'm sure you will backtrack on that, again.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

:lmao:Well that's convenient isn't it? 

No. You tried to move the goal post. We were not discussing Jamie because Jamie is in fact not in this position. So he's not a factor in this discussion. It's not convenient, I just decided not to engage in your attempt to move the goal post. Simple really.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If the thought that Sansa may eventually come to love or care for her husband is a delusion but wouldn't be a delusion if it weren't Tyrion then it matters greatly irt if Tyrion is deluding himself & why. If another person would be reasonable in thinking this then every single reason you gave for him being delusional (she's a prisoner, held hostage, abused by his family, his family killing hers, being used for her birthright) don't matter one iota & the only reason she couldn't/wouldn't come to care for him in time is that he is a dwarf. (By your given reasonings)

LMAO. I never once mentioned his dwarfism. Thanks for proving that you love twisting what someone writes and put words in their mouth they haven't even said and deliberately ignore the point. And the hilarious part is that we know Tyrion has had these thoughts consciously about their situation (it's literally in the text). The mental gymnastics you went through to arrive at 'by your given reasonings' is impressive though, so props for that.

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Yes. An attitude of having 100% empathy one one side and 0% empathy with the other is evil. Nothing wrong with the 100%, but plenty with the 0%. And nothing to do with the 100% deserving empathy more. As I said, this is not a zero sum game.
Absolutely, consciously, refusing to share any empathy at all for anyone, is a conscious choice for evil.

Just because I chose to have no empathy for Tyrion in this specific situation makes you decide I'm 100% evil? So you made it a zero sum game in which I'm 100% evil and 0% good? Oh irony.

Edited by Mystical

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1 hour ago, The Green Bard said:

Um, what’s so wrong with wanting to win her over?

Did you follow the discussion...at all?

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11 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah, but he is also 26 now and has no problem going against his father's order, that imply he will kill someone, when it comes to Shae. There is a very high risk they'll be found out by someone and that someone could tell Cersei and his father.

Tyrion also doesn't even try to fake the wedding night, after he decides to not go through with it and doesn't even try to lie to his father about it, which shows that he is definitely capable of going against his father's will, if he wants to.

No I know there was never a real chance of Tyrion having to marry Lollys. I'm just saying, that if Tywin had demanded that of Tyrion, I can't picture him not putting up a fight about it. 

And Tyrion does tell us himself: He wants Sansa and WF

He does hide Shae like a naughty teenager though - much like he did with Tysha as a thirteen year old. I can't help feeling that some aspects of his sexuality and his relationship with his father are still impacted by what happened with Tysha. There's a reason it's the trigger for him to kill Tywin.

Tyrion isn't an able-bodied man with full agency over his own life. He has a lot more agency than Sansa, especially in the marriage bed, but he is a disabled man with an abusive relationship with his father stretching back to childhood. A relationship that's only severed when he kills his abuser.

It is very much to Tyrion's discredit that he thinks more about his own needs than any risks Shae might face.

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11 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

I also take Corbon's point that the fucked-up social system these people are living under does make consummating a marriage into a duty and a requirement to complete the marriage. Hence why Catelyn remembers her wedding night to a complete stranger as having more of duty than passion and no one seems bothered that Edmure's bride is crying her eyes out when she's put into the marriage bed.

Don't think you're wrong though. Tyrion probably could and should have done better by Sansa, which is why he's a grey character.

I think Tyrion's situation is just very different from Catlyn's and Edmure's, since Tyrion knows she is forced in every possible way, has been horribly abused and held hostage for over a year, had to endure a lot of suffering, will be now separated from her family forever and is aiding against her will with their downfall, he knows she is afraid, he knows she is a child, but he still puts his own needs before hers. When she tells him she is is afraid, he ignores her and speaks instead of his own insecurities, wanting her to comfort him.

The combination of all of this makes this whole thing so incredibly cruel. Tyrion has shown us again and again how intelligent and how capable of empathy  he is, so that he doesn't muster more empathy for Sansa here is just incredible selfish and cruel to me. Sansa is completely innocent and literally a broken thing, but he just doesn't care enough, when everything is taken from her, to give her at least a little bit of power back by treating her like a human being and the little girl she is and not molesting her right away and putting her needs before his own.

Catelyn was consenting to her marriage, she was aiding her family and she was also 19 and Ned was no ugly dwarf, who's family killed hers. 

To Edmure's credit we don't know what happened, when it was just the two of them. We know Roslin wasn't crying because of Edmure and we know he was concerned about her crying and he must have not behaved badly towards her since she seems very fond of him now, she was also 16 and Edmure's family did not murder her's she hadn't been his abused prisoner, Edmure is not unattractive.

 

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10 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Did you follow the discussion...at all?

Yeah.  Seems a lot of over the top stuff that may not understand “the human heart in conflict with itself.”  
 

I am trying to point out that it has gotten out of control.  Arguing that trying to win a woman’s favor is a bad thing is completely preposterous.  Stick to your best arguments.   

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3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

When she tells him she is is afraid, he ignores her and speaks instead of his own insecurities, wanting her to comfort him.

She is the victim in this situation in every way imaginable and he knows it but he's still all 'woo is me' and vomits is issues onto her on top of everything else. And then proceeds to throw himself a major pity party for the rest of time she is in KL.

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4 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

He does hide Shae like a naughty teenager though - much like he did with Tysha as a thirteen year old. I can't help feeling that some aspects of his sexuality and his relationship with his father are still impacted by what happened with Tysha. There's a reason it's the trigger for him to kill Tywin.

Tyrion isn't an able-bodied man with full agency over his own life. He has a lot more agency than Sansa, especially in the marriage bed, but he is a disabled man with an abusive relationship with his father stretching back to childhood. A relationship that's only severed when he kills his abuser.

It is very much to Tyrion's discredit that he thinks more about his own needs than any risks Shae might face.

Sure he hides her otherwise she'd be killed right away.

I definitely feel for Tyrion and 100% believe he is an abuse victim, but because of the examples I've given I do believe he could have refused Tywin and would have, if he truly wanted to. But he ultimately wants WF and pretty Sansa, even though there are a lot of aspects that make him unhappy/ uncomfortable about the situation.

And I also see a pattern here: Tyrion does have a heart for bastards cripples and broken things, unless they happen to be women he wants to sleep with. In this case he puts his needs above theirs and stops looking at them as human beings, who are suffering as well and have needs themselves. He does that with Shae, Sansa and the Slave girl. All of them are broken things. And i just don't think those are minor offenses (not implying that you do)

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17 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Yeah.  Seems a lot of over the top stuff that may not understand “the human heart in conflict with itself.”  
 

I am trying to point out that it has gotten out of control.  Arguing that trying to win a woman’s favor is a bad thing is completely preposterous.  Stick to your best arguments.

If you had actually followed the conversation you would have realized that this isn't something romantic about wooing someone. How you even arrived at that and try to turn it around as if it was my argument that wooing is something bad, I just can't. His issues is what made him stop. Him stopping and thinking that not attacking her right now and instead wait in the hopes that she will willingly consent sometime in the future, is self delusion on his end. Because it ignores all the reasons why Sansa might never want to. Because it's not all about his looks. The major reason is in fact that he is a Lannister and what his family did to her and her family and is probably something a person might never get over.

Edited by Mystical

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46 minutes ago, corbon said:

He didn't want to rape her. He wanted her to make the best of a bad situation and join him as a partner. 

Rape does not mean violent sex. But sex without consent. I think where we have a general disagreement with is that Sansa did not consent ever. She did the opposite. She was forced to marry, therefore every sexual act between Sansa and Tyrion she is forced to as well. So every sexual act that Tyrion does towards her is without her consent.

“You’re prettier with your mouth closed, Sansa,” Cersei told her. “Come along now, the septon is waiting. And the wedding guests as well.” “No,” Sansa blurted. “No.” “Yes. You are a ward of the crown. The king stands in your father’s place, since your brother is an attainted traitor. That means he has every right to dispose of your hand. You are to marry my brother Tyrion.” My claim, she thought, sickened. Dontos the Fool was not so foolish after all; he had seen the truth of it. Sansa backed away from the queen. “I won’t.” I’m to marry Willas, I’m to be the lady of Highgarden, please … “I understand your reluctance. Cry if you must. In your place, I would likely rip my hair out. He’s a loathsome little imp, no doubt of it, but marry him you shall.” “You can’t make me.” “Of course we can. You may come along quietly and say your vows as befits a lady, or you may struggle and scream and make a spectacle for the stableboys to titter over, but you will end up wedded and bedded all the same.” The queen opened the door. Ser Meryn Trant and Ser Osmund Kettleblack were waiting without, in the white scale armor of the Kingsguard. “Escort Lady Sansa to the sept,” she told them. “Carry her if you must, but try not to tear the gown, it was very costly.” Sansa tried to run, but Cersei’s handmaid caught her before she’d gone a yard. Ser Meryn Trant gave her a look that made her cringe, but Kettleblack touched her almost gently and said, “Do as you’re told, sweetling, it won’t be so bad. Wolves are supposed to be brave, aren’t they?”

(...)

The king was resplendent in crimson and gold, his crown on his head. “I’m your father today,” he announced. “You’re not,” she flared. “You’ll never be.” His face darkened. “I am. I’m your father, and I can marry you to whoever I like. To anyone. You’ll marry the pig boy if I say so, and bed down with him in the sty.” His green eyes glittered with amusement. “Or maybe I should give you to Ilyn Payne, would you like him better?”

she is forced in every possible way. Those are the people, who have severely physically abused her and killed her father after all. After that she cries throughout the ceremony and she doesn't kneel for Tyrion as well. This is the only form of protest she has.

Sansa is not his partner. He is an authority figure. She must obey her husband now by law. She can't say no, even though she did before the wedding, but it didn't matter as you can see in the quotes, she has no choice.

And he did not accept her utter rejection. Her rejection was clear to Tyrion from the start, since she was forced and dragged to her own wedding. Tyrion says, "this is no way to bring you to your wedding." He knows force was necessary, she doesn't kneel for him, she is a prisoner. He knows she is not consenting.

Quote

He opeed himself up to her and exposed his deepest vulnerabilities. He then accepted her choice not to make the best of it, accepted her utter rejection, and still protected her.

He ignores her telling him, that she is afraid, doesn't inquire further about that- which is just very wrong and instead tells her he knows he is ugly, wanting her to comfort him about it, (instead of him comforting her) since he waits for her response and when he doesn't get one, he is bitter about it.

He doesn't accept her choice, since her choice was not to marry him and consequently not having any sexual contact with him and he knows that.

It was also not her choice, but his choice to stop.

Quote

Desiring is not raping.

I agree, but he did more than just desiring from afar. 

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