Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It's acceptable. But that doesn't mean it's common.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it "common" either. Just not odd. 

[Nagini's Neville]

8 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah for sure. There's an easy answer for why Sansa doesn't but why not anyone else? Why not her family? 

Because it is possible to marry a maiden and they have already very low expectation, when it comes to the Lannisters morality: they falsely killed Ned, Tywin has murder children before, they have murdered Jon Arryn and tried to kill Bran. That they forcefully marry a girl as soon as she has flowered is nothing next to that for the Lannisters.

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I wouldn't go so far as to call it "common" either. Just not odd. 

I definitely think honorable ppl like Ned would have a moral judgement against it. I guess it depends, who you'd asked whether it was odd or not. Definitely not odd for the Ironborns and Tywin Lannister obviously couldn't care less. For him most human beings are just pawn including his own children.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

49 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Because it is possible to marry a maiden and they have already very low expectation, when it comes to the Lannisters morality: they falsely killed Ned, Tywin has murder children before, they have murdered Jon Arryn and tried to kill Bran. That they forcefully marry a girl as soon as she has flowered is nothing next to that for the Lannisters.

I definitely think honorable ppl like Ned would have a moral judgement against it. I guess it depends, who you'd asked whether it was odd or not. Definitely not odd for the Ironborns and Tywin Lannister obviously couldn't care less. For him most human beings are just pawn including his own children.

But that's the whole point. If honorable people like Ned would have a moral judgement against it, why don't we have one moral judgement against it other than Tyrion's? It doesn't seem to be odd to anyone. 

I agree the Starks wouldn't be surprised by the Lannisters behavior but if one of the reasons this was so horrendous was because of her age I think it would be said. 

 

[corbon]

50 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I definitely think honorable ppl like Ned would have a moral judgement against it. I guess it depends, who you'd asked whether it was odd or not. 

Ned doesn't seem to have made a moral judgement against Rhaegar for whatever happened with the 14 year old Lyanna.

I know, thats even more complicated.
But Lyanna was under 15 when Rhaegar 'abducted' her. Yet Ned seems to have a moral level of respect for Rhaegar.

I think plenty of evidence has been produced to show that the age factor for Sansa is not even a little bit odd or perverse in this society. I think you are having immense difficulty getting past your own aversion and seeing with clear eyes, in this particular area. 

Tyrion objects (and he's the only one) because he wants a willing active, womanly partner for a wife, and Sansa will be a young, frightened, sad, unwilling, inactive, emotionally unequal partner - at best. His objection is not because her age is culturally inappropriate.
Sansa doesn't object to Jeyne's desire for Beric as Beric being too old as a cultural age difference thing, but as a personal little-girl perspective. Actually, its mostly out of snobbery, but thats a bit beside the point.

[Nagini's Neville]

14 hours ago, corbon said:

I know, thats even more complicated.
But Lyanna was under 15 when Rhaegar 'abducted' her. Yet Ned seems to have a moral level of respect for Rhaegar.

We don't know that at all. All that we know is that she died at 16 or 17. Could have been they had sex the first time, when she was 16. And 15, 16 is fine, we know that much. So why would Ned be upset? And we still don't know what Lyanna told him, we still don't know what Rheagar actually did. Lyanna likely went willingly with him. That already is a big difference. If Sansa falls in love with someone at 14 and willingly wants to sleep with him, I have no problem with it. It's the combination of being 12/13, forced, forever ripped away from your family and him being so much older( that is a big difference if it's forced). And in puberty very year is like 10, so 14 is already much better than 12 almost 13. Sansa is not even 14 the last time we see her and she has grown up so much within a year, when she first got her period at 12.

We know however, that it very much upset Ned how young the mother of Robert's first bastard was. She looks so young he doesn't dare to ask her how old is is, she was likely around Sansa's age or older. Because she was lowborn it's not very likely she got her period before she was 12. So yeah Ned would have a big problem with his daughter being married at 12.

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I think you are having immense difficulty getting past your own aversion and seeing with clear eyes, in this particular area. 

Could you please stop, your personal assessment of me as a person. I have my opinions about the difficulties you are facing regarding this topic and therefore having trouble analyzing objectively as well and I didn't share those, because they have no business in a book discussion. The amount of times you have stated, that Sansa "consented" is really worrisome to me. If you only have to chose, between two options you don't want, two men, that will rape you. This isn't a choice. Because you can't chose option "No Rape". Because you can't chose, you don't consent -easy as that. The same way that Jon had no choice, when he only had to chose between death and having sex with Ygritte. Same thing. In both scenarios Ygritte and Tyrion/Lancel both have the power. Jon and Sansa have none.

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His objection is not because her age is culturally inappropriate.

I think we all have agreed, that's it's possible in this world to marry a girl that young. It is legal. But a lot of immoral things are legal in this world, like Tywin having Tysha raped and children being murdered, Robert trying to assassinate Dany. What the king says is the law and Tywin is the hand of the king. You can also rape your wife and that's culturally appropriate.

Still Tyrion very much has an reaction to hearing Sansa's age. 

He says “Gods have mercy.”, if he was totally chill about the age like for example the Ironborns would have been, he hardly would have said that.

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Sansa will be a young, frightened, sad, unwilling, inactive, emotionally unequal partner

duh. That goes along with marrying a little girl. And as you state Tyrion knows that. So he definitely has moral scruple about it. I never said it was culturally inappropriate. But a lot of horrible things, like raping your wife are also culturally appropriate, doesn't it would be considered moral by a lot of characters in asoiaf. The whole scenario is immoral and Tyrion notices the immorality of it from the beginning.

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Sansa doesn't object to Jeyne's desire for Beric as Beric being too old as a cultural age difference thing, but as a personal little-girl perspective. Actually, its mostly out of snobbery, but thats a bit beside the point.

What the f she is 11. Isn't it enough that ever grown man lusts after her? Now she, a child, she snobbish, because she doesn't want to be with a grown ass man. She's a little girl. And doesn't develop a crush on an adult. Children mostly have age appropriate crushes to protect themselves and draw a clear line between themselves and adults. Honestly since you always personally critic me for not empathizing with Tyrion enough, I gotta tell you, IMO you have real trouble empathizing with Sansa. She is a child a young girl, not 12 going on 18. I see a lot of men having trouble empathizing with what life is like as a young girl. IMO you don't seem to grasp, how horrible/traumatizing all this is for her and what a lasting impact this experience will have on her life. And thinking an 22 is awfully old is not snobbish. 22 is awfully old, when you are 11, you have a right to think that. And only old ppl are insulted by being called old. Children have a different perspective.

[Nagini's Neville]

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree the Starks wouldn't be surprised by the Lannisters behavior but if one of the reasons this was so horrendous was because of her age I think it would be said. 

I think Cat and Robb obviously know it's possible and they expect the worst from the Lannisters.

I also don't think it's so horrendous in universe, (they just don't have hard laws about what's horrendous, when done to woman and girls in general, rape within marriage is also acceptable) just that most good families and husbands would wait. But the Starks obviously don't consider the Lannisters to be a good family or Tyrion a good husband. So it's not surprising. And the Lannisters have even married one of their cousins to a baby to be able to claim her lands. So obviously age doesn't matter to them. Might have been that they would have married Sansa even if she didn't have her period yet.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I think Cat and Robb obviously know it's possible and they expect the worst from the Lannisters.

I don't understand why this would make them not say anything about it. If Robb & Cat felt that it was bad, or out of the ordinary, or not something a good person/family would do (not marrying her against her will, but at her age) why would expecting the worst from the Lannisters make them not remark on it? 

[Nagini's Neville]

30 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't understand why this would make them not say anything about it. If Robb & Cat felt that it was bad, or out of the ordinary, or not something a good person/family would do (not marrying her against her will, but at her age) why would expecting the worst from the Lannisters make them not remark on it? 

I just don't think it needs extra mentioning, when they know it's something that happens in their world- is legal. Just the same ways they might not mention, that Robert "insists" on his marital rights.

[Nagini's Neville]

The Hound threatened to kill Sansa and killed Mycah

Jaime tried to kill Bran

Tyrion molested Sansa and wanted to rape her.

 

There are explanations for why they did what they did, but no excuses. They are still 100% responsible for harming innocent children. During the Holocaust Nazis, under the threat of death, were ordered to kill, torture and abuse jews, political prisoners and other persecuted minorities. The ones, who refused were killed themselves. Still they were court-matarilled and convicted for their crimes after the war.

Edit:

But at least the Hound and Jaime are honest about who they are, while Tyrion is a complete hypocrite in this regard and his claim to have a heart for the cripples bastards an broken things. Only if they are not women or girls he wants to sleep with, otherwise his needs and self pity comes first, no matter how broken they are. He's only compassionate, when it doesn't have disadvantages for him, doesn't hurt his ego and is convenient for him. And mostly towards boys and men he can relate to like, but if you are a desirable young girl and you dare to not be loyal (for no reason whatsoever you should be ) to him, he feels like he has the right to kill you, no matter how broken you are. Tyrion has definitely a history of dehumanizing women/girls he wants to have sex with.

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

40 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I just don't think it needs extra mentioning, when they know it's something that happens in their world- is legal. Just the same ways they might not mention, that Robert "insists" on his marital rights.

Right but it would deserve extra mentioning if it's seen in a negative light or as something a good, honorable person wouldn't do. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

14 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The Hound threatened to kill Sansa and killed Mycah

Jaime tried to kill Bran

Tyrion molested Sansa and wanted to rape her.

 

There are explanations for why they did what they did, but no excuses. They are still 100% responsible for harming innocent children. During the Holocaust Nazis, under the threat of death, were ordered to kill, torture and abuse jews, political prisoners and other persecuted minorities. The ones, who refused were killed themselves. Still they were court-matarilled and convicted for their crimes after the war.

Which is absolutely, 100% wrong. If they were indeed doing what they did under threat of death, they were forced & should not be held responsible for their crimes. The crimes they committed were done in order for them to survive. 

What makes things interesting is that there are reasons, sometimes there are excuses, sometimes the person isn't to blame. 

Not to start the whole conversation from the beginning again but...

I understand your opinion is that Tyrion molested & wanted to rape Sansa but there are differing opinions on that. They aren't because anyone is advocating rape or blaming the victim or not finding themselves able to empathize or sympathize with Sansa - where there is no argument, is that it was horrible for Sansa. That's something we can all agree on. Saying Tyrion isn't to blame or that isn't exactly what happened isn't taking from Sansa to give to Tyrion, it's just exploring human nature & looking at the evidence from all sides. Some, upon looking at the whole thing, have come to the conclusion that Tyrion did not molest Sansa nor did he want to rape her. Again, I understand completely that isn't how you see things. 

The same can be said for the other two. I don't think Sandor had much good reason to threaten Sansa but threatening isn't as bad as doing. He was in a precarious position when he killed Mycah & while it was horrific, he was ordered to, by the crown. Doesn't make it good or right, it just gives us something to think about. 

Same with Jaime - he did try to kill Bran but had Bran told Jaime's own life, his sister/lovers life, & his childrens lives would have been in danger. 

There are things that take some of the blame from these people. We like to think, in a situation, we would always do what is good & right & moral & honorable but that simply isn't always the case & sometimes there is no good, right, moral, &/or honorable path. 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

5 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

that Tyrion did not molest Sansa nor did he want to rape her.

well he did. he also raped Tysha. the question is whether he is to blame for it or not.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

 

 

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Lyanna likely went willingly with him. That already is a big difference. If Sansa falls in love with someone at 14 and willingly wants to sleep with him, I have no problem with it. It's the combination of being 12/13, forced, forever ripped away from your family and him being so much older( that is a big difference if it's forced). And in puberty very year is like 10, so 14 is already much better than 12 almost 13. Sansa is not even 14 the last time we see her and she has grown up so much within a year, when she first got her period at 12.

Yes there are many differences in Sansa case & who ever we compare her to - no two cases are going to be identical. 

Why is it ok at 14 but not at 13? 

As to the bolded - where did that come from? I've never heard it before? 

I think we can't take the whole thing & lump it together & say because Sansa's situation was, on the whole, terrible, that every single instance within the situation is horrible. 

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

We know however, that it very much upset Ned how young the mother of Robert's first bastard was. She looks so young he doesn't dare to ask her how old is is, she was likely around Sansa's age or older. Because she was lowborn it's not very likely she got her period before she was 12. So yeah Ned would have a big problem with his daughter being married at 12.

Do you have a quote for that? Or can you tell me where it is? I just don't remember it. 

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That goes along with marrying a little girl. And as you state Tyrion knows that.

But it doesn't, necessarily. It goes along with marrying this particular girl. because of the outside circumstances. In another situation she may be perfectly content to marry at this age, even to someone who is Tyrion's age. She is content to marry Willas Tyrell - who iirc is older than Tyrion & Beric. 

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But a lot of horrible things, like raping your wife are also culturally appropriate, doesn't it would be considered moral by a lot of characters in asoiaf. The whole scenario is immoral and Tyrion notices the immorality of it from the beginning.

Sure, but there is no evidence at all, whatsoever, that any of the rest of the characters think it's amoral. Only Tyrion. Are we to believe that he is the most morally good character in the series, or at least of the ones who know of the marriage? I don't think he is, I think he is likely the most sympathetic is why he questions her age when no one else does. 

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

What the f she is 11. Isn't it enough that ever grown man lusts after her? Now she, a child, she snobbish, because she doesn't want to be with a grown ass man.

Not at all. The snobbish part is

"he was awfully old, almost twenty-two; the Knight of Flowers would have been much better. Of course, Jeyne had been in love with Lord Beric ever since she had first glimpsed him in the lists. Sansa thought she was being silly; Jeyne was only a steward’s daughter, after all, and no matter how much she mooned after him, Lord Beric would never look at someone so far beneath him, even if she hadn’t been half his age."

Nothing to do with not wanting to be with a man. 

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The amount of times you have stated, that Sansa "consented" is really worrisome to me.

But he isn't the only one to say so. I think within the context, what we really mean is that she 'assented' because she really didn't have an opportunity to consent, she was forced into the marriage. 

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

IMO you don't seem to grasp, how horrible/traumatizing all this is for her and what a lasting impact this experience will have on her life. And thinking an 22 is awfully old is not snobbish. 22 is awfully old, when you are 11, you have a right to think that. And only old ppl are insulted by being called old. Children have a different perspective.

I don't think this is the case at all. I think Corbon grasps how horrible it is for Sansa, or at least he appears to IMO. The issue is that how horrible it is for Sansa is not directly related to how much to blame Tyrion is or how bad or good his actions were. I don't think the snobbish part is to do with his age, but whether or not only "old" people are insulted at being called old, does not make it not insulting right? 

44 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But at least the Hound and Jaime are honest about who they are, while Tyrion is a complete hypocrite in this regard and his claim to have a heart for the cripples bastards an broken things. Only if they are not women or girls he wants to sleep with, otherwise his needs and self pity comes first, no matter how broken they are.

I disagree 100% & there have been quite a few things presented in this thread that show Tyrion knows exactly who & what he is.

45 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He's only compassionate, when it doesn't have disadvantages for him, doesn't hurt his ego and is convenient for him.

absolutely not true. 

46 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And mostly towards boys and men he can relate to like, but if you are a desirable young girl and you dare to not be loyal (for no reason whatsoever you should be ) to him, he feels like he has the right to kill you, no matter how broken you are. Tyrion has definitely a history of dehumanizing women/girls he wants to have sex with.

Is that what happened here? I imagine you are speaking about Shae - which is another whole topic in itself but he didn't kill Shae because she was a woman, & Shae had every reason to be loyal to Tyrion, she had no reason not to be, yet did it anyway. He was, after all, paying for her loyalty. He does some bad things, especially after the trial that he was wrongfully convicted at but he isn't a robot. Shae played her part very well & Tyrion cared for her. Is it so unreal for him to think that she may care for him as well? Not that she was in love with him, but that she cared for him, as one human cares about another? I would say either Shae was forced to testify against him & forced to share Tywin's bed OR she lacked basic human compassion. There isn't one chance, if I were in his position, I wouldn't be emotionally fraught over Shae's actions. This is someone he spent time with, was intimate with, shared thoughts & feelings with - She could have let the relationship be sex only - pay for sex, you get sex period. But she didn't & neither did he & it's not unreasonable for him to expect her to reciprocate some of what she pretended to. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

20 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

well he did. he also raped Tysha. the question is whether he is to blame for it or not.

That's your opinion. He didn't molest Sansa IMO. He certainly didn't rape Sansa, nor did he want to. He wanted to have sex with her at one point, but he didn't want to rape her. 

Tysha was raped, by Tyrion & others. But that doesn't make Tyrion a rapist. There is too much unknown there to say for sure but I'll guarantee it wasn't a situation where he just wanted to rape his wife. 

[Hugorfonics]

55 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Which is absolutely, 100% wrong. If they were indeed doing what they did under threat of death, they were forced & should not be held responsible for their crimes. The crimes they committed were done in order for them to survive. 

Nah.

Fuck those Nazi bitches.

LSH style, grab the rope

55 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

sometimes there is no good, right, moral, &/or honorable path. 

No doubt. But there is always the wrong move. 

49 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

well he did. he also raped Tysha. the question is whether he is to blame for it or not.

To what end? This isn't Nuremberg

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Nah.

Fuck those Nazi bitches.

LSH style, grab the rope

Haha! I agree, mostly. But if someone was truly facing death if they didn't do horrible deeds, they deserve a second look at least. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No doubt. But there is always the wrong move

For sure. 

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Nah.

Fuck those Nazi bitches.

LSH style, grab the rope

No doubt. But there is always the wrong move. 

To what end? This isn't Nuremberg

To his lol

[Nagini's Neville]

11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I understand your opinion is that Tyrion molested & wanted to rape Sansa but there are differing opinions on that. They aren't because anyone is advocating rape or blaming the victim or not finding themselves able to empathize or sympathize with Sansa

Don't know why you think I blamed anyone of advocating for rape. This is something, that doesn't need to be explained to me. We are arguing about a text. Tbh I'm a bit annoyed of having to defend myself against things I never implied. And if you are talking about the dialogue between me and corbon, I'd rather, that stays between him an I, since IMO it's quite different from ours. And I said a couple of things directly in response to his statements.

It is hard to have this dialogue, when you are speaking for several ppl, because even though, what you are stating here, I agree with in regards to your posts, there were other definitely problematic things said.

 I also think the definition needs to stay with the victim. She was molested and Tyrion did it, whether you believe he is to blame or not, speaking Tyrion free from guilt won't make her not being molested, the same way that Cersei was raped.

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think Sandor had much good reason to threaten Sansa but threatening isn't as bad as doing.

Molesting isn't as bad as raping. Doesn't make molesting better. Same thing goes here IMO. It was pretty bad, she thought she was going to die. And yeah it would have been really, really, really bad, if he had just killed an innocent girl for no reason whatsoever. 

38 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He was in a precarious position when he killed Mycah & while it was horrific, he was ordered to, by the crown. Doesn't make it good or right, it just gives us something to think about. 

sure, there are explanations, there are reasons. And maybe that takes a bit away from his responsibility, but to say he is not responsible at all is just not truthful IMO. The Hound after all didn't have to serve the Lannisters and we should also not forget. He told Sansa, he killed "women and children" and there are all just meat to him and he is the butcher. he probably killed a lot of other innocent ppl, because, if he is not fond of torturing what else did the Lannisters use him for? he was pretty quickly off his horse, when Joffrey commanded him to bring him the head of the guy, who threw shit during the riot.

Tywin:“Ser Gregor has his uses, as did his brother. Every lord has need of a beast from time to time …

A Storm of Swords, Tyrion 5

If the Hound wasn't responsible for "all the evil he has done", he wouldn't have to dig graves on the quiet isle now.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Same with Jaime - he did try to kill Bran but had Bran told Jaime's own life, his sister/lovers life, & his childrens lives would have been in danger. 

I understand Jaime's case a bit better, since it was not just his own life on the line. Doesn't mean he isn't still responsible though for what he did. He also didn't have put himself in this position in the first place for example.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Which is absolutely, 100% wrong. If they were indeed doing what they did under threat of death, they were forced & should not be held responsible for their crimes. The crimes they committed were done in order for them to survive. 

So every crime, that someone commits is just justifiable as long as they are always saving there own lives? 

Also Tyrion was under no death threat here. Nothing happened at all. So maybe he should have at least waited for the threat and maybe I would judge hims less harshly.

And I personally think there is something wrong with putting your own well being at all costs constantly over that of others. It's fine, if we disagree in that regard.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We like to think, in a situation, we would always do what is good & right & moral & honorable but that simply isn't always the case & sometimes there is no good, right, moral, &/or honorable path. 

maybe than you should accept, that you have done something wrong and take responsibility for it, instead of deflecting from it and making excuses for it. 

That's why i have more respect for the Hound and Jaime. At least they are honest about who they are.

[Hugorfonics]

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Haha! I agree, mostly. But if someone was truly facing death if they didn't do horrible deeds, they deserve a second look at least. 

Word. And that was one of the reasons there was a trial. I think a handfull were declared not guilty (much more were) too.

It's a thin line to walk. Like, being the one to make sure the gaschamber line is single file, fuck that guy, right? Ok, gunpoint, family at gunpoint, boo hoo. Shit went on for like 20 years. Not even the SS had that many guns pointed at you for that long. 

If you become a monster, then stop. 

There was that discussion a bit back, or lack there of i guess, of death over rape. I disagree with it. Im in no rush to get stretched and cant even imagine the fear, let alone pain that comes with it. But still, life. So death over monstrosity? Ok. Fine. I may do something terrible to save my skin, but repeatedly? 20 years? No way. Life over death, but only if its one worth living.

21 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

To his lol

We're in no position to decide whether the imp lives or dies

[Nagini's Neville]

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

We're in no position to decide whether the imp lives or dies

" “Aye?” Narbert seemed taken aback. “To what end?” Brienne touched Oathkeeper’s hilt. “His,” she said."

Oh well, as you say...

It seems to be a misconception in this thread, that I think Tyrion should not be redeemed, just because I think he has responsibility for a lot of what he did.