Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 Quote Even if we do separate the potion-induced act of sleeping with her and the honor-driven decision to marry her, I still don't think we can hold Robb accountable. I think most people hear "love potion" and think of teenage, crushy puppy love. But MtF is the real deal, so I can imagine her potions are pretty powerful. This would be a love so strong and so obsessive that you will do anything for that person: kill for them, die for them even at your own hand, make any sacrifice to be with them, desire to possess them at all times, never to be parted. It is an overwhelming, all-consuming, painful, aching love that drives people into irrationality. So IMO, blaming Robb for marrying Jeyne would be like blaming someone under the influence of a truth serum for revealing state secrets. They are drugged, not thinking with their own rational minds, and therefore not responsible for their actions here is another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 No. Zero evidence for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: here is another. oh you didn't have to do that. I could have looked it up myself. Thank you! tbh I feel like, I'm not quite as invested in Sweetie as I, as a Stark fan, maybe should be lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finley McLeod Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 Was Robb drugged? The Starks have a history of breaking their promises. Oath breaking. I would not say Robb wasn't under the influence of pain killers. But that had nothing to do with his decision to marry Jeyne instead of honoring his words to House Frey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPTWP Timett Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 Simple answer no Robb was a 16 year old boy raised to be a over honorable Lord. He was doomed if allowed near basically any scheming females. What I think is worse is the whole population never thinks it's a possibility a 16 year old boy will do something stupid. I know he's Ned Stark's son but he's still Brandon Stark's nephew. Lot's of faith in the boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 6 hours ago, Finley McLeod said: Was Robb drugged? The Starks have a history of breaking their promises. Oath breaking. I would not say Robb wasn't under the influence of pain killers. But that had nothing to do with his decision to marry Jeyne instead of honoring his words to House Frey. 5 hours ago, TPTWP Timett said: Simple answer no Robb was a 16 year old boy raised to be a over honorable Lord. He was doomed if allowed near basically any scheming females. What I think is worse is the whole population never thinks it's a possibility a 16 year old boy will do something stupid. I know he's Ned Stark's son but he's still Brandon Stark's nephew. Lot's of faith in the boy Really? And just ignore the multiple examples of Spicer women mysteriously marrying above their station to go from wretched witch woman to Queen of the North in four generations? That's a remarkable feat that, as far as I know, has no equivalent anywhere else in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 26 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: Really? And just ignore the multiple examples of Spicer women mysteriously marrying above their station to go from wretched witch woman to Queen of the North in four generations? That's a remarkable feat that, as far as I know, has no equivalent anywhere else in the story I'm not 100% positive Spicer drugged Robb but there is certainly something odd going on there & it is worth looking at. Dismissing it, out of hand, for no reason is not really looking at the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I'm not 100% positive Spicer drugged Robb but there is certainly something odd going on there & it is worth looking at. Dismissing it, out of hand, for no reason is not really looking at the text. Funny, isn't it? Most people will defend RLJ as confirmed canonical truth based on little more than "Promise me, Ned." but then dismiss something like this, which has far greater evidentiary backing, with a "nah, there's no evidence for this." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 58 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: Funny, isn't it? Most people will defend RLJ as confirmed canonical truth based on little more than "Promise me, Ned." but then dismiss something like this, which has far greater evidentiary backing, with a "nah, there's no evidence for this." It is funny. It all comes down to what they want to really look at. I take no issue with someone breaking down the theory with facts that debunk it or even debating against it with educated guesses but to simply say there is no evidence for it after being presented with evidence for it, is just silly IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 But there isn’t evidence for Sybell Spicer giving a love potion to Robb or to Robb and Jeyne. It is possible, sure, but mostly because it can’t be disproved at this point. And I don’t mean to sound like a naysayer, but there’s no way this idea has more evidence/textual support than R+L=J. Also, @John Suburbs, isn’t it disingenuous to say the sole evidence for R+L=J is “promise me, Ned”? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 7 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Really? And just ignore the multiple examples of Spicer women mysteriously marrying above their station to go from wretched witch woman to Queen of the North in four generations? That's a remarkable feat that, as far as I know, has no equivalent anywhere else in the story. This is a huge oversimplification that just misguides people. I don t know anything about the spicer females, but are you implying that they use love potions for 4 generations? They would need a witch in the familly to do a magic potion… She wouldn t be alive for 4 generations... If they had the power to make love potions couldn t they have married better than a minor house in 3 generations? Those witchy spicers couldn t marry a lannister that is pretty close to them? It sounds like a waste of love potions... Robb's marriage is not misterious. It can be easilly explained… So can the others? Personally have no idea and would need some kind of evindece besides you saying so... Another important thing is that jeyne actually loved robb and from what I remember she was still sufering with his death. would she love someone that doesn t love her back or is starting to lose interest in her? I am asking this because there are some theories that the potion was starting to lose effect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 2 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Funny, isn't it? Most people will defend RLJ as confirmed canonical truth based on little more than "Promise me, Ned." but then dismiss something like this, which has far greater evidentiary backing, with a "nah, there's no evidence for this." R+L=J certainly has more clues and hints in the text besides “Promise me, Ned”. I’m not outright discounting your love potion/ Robb being drugged theory. But can’t it be the more simpler explanation that Jeyne nursed and comforted Robb while he was recovering from a wound plus the added trauma of the news of Bran and Rickon’s deaths... a period when Robb was not in full control of his faculties and thinking clearly. If as you say, Robb was drugged wouldn’t he have felt something amiss about the whole affair? True, we don’t have a Robb POV, but as far as we know, he loved Jeyne after they became man and wife and suspected nothing funny or untoward about their relationship. We already have Sybell giving Jeyne moon tea and another similar line of storytelling may just be overkill for the Westerling plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 GRRM wrote that the Spicer women have a history of that sort of thing (Maggy the Frog) and then we have Robb making a very bad decision right in line with that. Add it up. Whether or not it happened, GRRM certainly wants us to wonder about it. My guess is that Robb was weak both from his injury and especially his grief over Bran, Rickon, Theon and Winterfell. He and Jeyne had a genuine connection. An opportunist will push them over the edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 I’m w/ @teej6, I think it would be overusing the idea since we already confirmation that Sybell was giving Jeyne moon tea w/o her knowledge to prevent a pregnancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPTWP Timett Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 9 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Really? And just ignore the multiple examples of Spicer women mysteriously marrying above their station to go from wretched witch woman to Queen of the North in four generations? That's a remarkable feat that, as far as I know, has no equivalent anywhere else in the story. The Spicer's are definitely the movers in the Westerling family. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a potion I just think it's Jeyne acting bewitched Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acwill07 Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 On 2/9/2020 at 11:28 PM, redriver said: No. Zero evidence for it. Well, we've got people on here who think Jon Snow is the son of Ned and Ashara or that Dany is the daughter of Ned and Ashara and there's zero evidence for that, so why not this? IMO this is much more likely than Jon not being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. There are lots of hints that something deeper is going on with Sybelle and that whole situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 1 minute ago, acwill07 said: Well, we've got people on here who think Jon Snow is the son of Ned and Ashara or that Dany is the daughter of Ned and Ashara and there's zero evidence for that, so why not this? IMO this is much more likely than Jon not being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. There are lots of hints that something deeper is going on with Sybelle and that whole situation. Love potion number nine?I took my troubles down to Madam Ruth, you know that gypsy with the gold capped tooth..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loge Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 Robb was administered a love potion. And Jeyne was given a contraceptive. Sybel Westerling was in cahoots with Tywin Lannister. He couldn't beat Robb on the battle field, so he brought him down through intrigue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 I have been thinking that Sybell Westerling used love potions on Robb for a long time. Many readers object to this idea by claiming that it would cheapen the story (not because it would be improbable). However, there has to be a reason why George decided to make Sybell related to Maggy the Frog (who was said to be selling love potions and who also seems to have used one succesfully, given that she "enchanted" a rich merchant who took her to wife).Recently I came to the conclusion that maybe we are looking at this from the wrong side. Perhaps the love potions were used on Jeyne, not Robb. It is highly implied that Tywin had some back and forth communication with Sybell Westerling while arranging their betrayal to Robb. Quote “Jeyne Westerling is her mother’s daughter,” said Lord Tywin, “and Robb Stark is his father's son.” What Tywin meant is that Jeyne was an opportunistic and ambitious person like her mother. Tywin was most probably relying on firsthand knowledge he got from Sybell. However, that is not the Jeyne we saw in the story. Even after Robb’s death and the apparent defeat of the Stark cause, Jeyne was weeping for Robb and saying that she loved him, which was making her mother very angry.I think this was due to the side effects of long term use of love potions. We have never seen the real Jeyne Westerling in the story. What we see is a Jeyne pretty high on love potions. Maybe when used with the contraceptives Jeyne took, the effects of love potions did not leave the flesh. This can easily be revealed if Sybell Westerling becomes the Prologue of TWoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 Or Sybell just told Tywin whatever she had to tell him, in order to stay on his good side, knowing it wouldn’t be too hard to nudge Jeyne in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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