Was Robb drugged?

[John Suburbs]

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

But there isn’t evidence for Sybell Spicer giving a love potion to Robb or to Robb and Jeyne. It is possible, sure, but mostly because it can’t be disproved at this point. And I don’t mean to sound like a naysayer, but there’s no way this idea has more evidence/textual support than R+L=J. Also, @John Suburbs, isn’t it disingenuous to say the sole evidence for R+L=J is “promise me, Ned”?

The pattern is right there for all to see. Jeyne is now the third Spicer woman in four generations to marry far above her station to husbands who showed "more honor than sense." No other family has been able to rise this far this fast. Robb also becomes increasingly distant and cold toward Jeyne as time goes by -- exactly the opposite of what he should be doing if this was the love of his life and he was in need of comfort and support. Call it an incredible coincidence if you will, but these are the admittedly circumstantial facts.

Please tell me the actual "evidence" that exists for RLJ. A highly suspicious story about a kidnapping, which virtually every reader recognizes as a lie to begin with, then a good year later, Lyanna lying in a bed of blood saying "Promise me, Ned." All the rest is pure speculation about ice and fire and blue roses etc. There is zero actual evidence, none at all, that Rhaegar was involved in Lyanna's disappearance or was with her at any time following Harrenhall.

[John Suburbs]

15 hours ago, divica said:

This is a huge oversimplification that just misguides people.

I don t know anything about the spicer females, but are you implying that they use love potions for 4 generations? They would need a witch in the familly to do a magic potion… She wouldn t be alive for 4 generations...

If they had the power to make love potions couldn t they have married better than a minor house in 3 generations? Those witchy spicers couldn t marry a lannister that is pretty close to them? It sounds like a waste of love potions...

Robb's marriage is not misterious. It can be easilly explained… So can the others? Personally have no idea and would need some kind of evindece besides you saying so...

Another important thing is that jeyne actually loved robb and from what I remember she was still sufering with his death. would she love someone that doesn t love her back or is starting to lose interest in her? I am asking this because there are some theories that the potion was starting to lose effect...

I advise you to educate yourself about the Spicers then. You'll see that three generations of their women made highly advantageous marriages for themselves with men who showed "more honor than sense," rising from crazy street person to Queen of the North. No other family has accomplished this feat in so short a time.

Also, Maggy the Frog is still alive after four generations. Cersei visited her in her youth. And there is no reason why she could not pass down her knowledge to her children and grandchildren.

Need still more evidence? Jeyne has a heart-shaped face, a trait shared with Melisandre, another witch/priestess woman from Asshai, and Shiera Seastar, witch/priestess woman who was also the object of ardent passion by two Targaryen bastards.

Getting close to eligible noble bachelors is not as easy as it sounds, let alone dosing them with love potions. And a Lannister cannot just marry anyone, no matter how in love he is. The Spicers need to find an unmarried lord with the autonomy to marry who he wishes.

Robb's marriage is mysterious. He knows full well what he is giving up, but he is so madly in love with her that he does it anyway after only knowing her for a few weeks. Yet again, a Spicer woman landing a husband far above her station because he has "more honor than sense." This is not just me saying so, this is me pointing out the facts in the text.

Another fact: notice how quickly Robb turns cold toward Jeyne. It's only a few months after their marriage and he is already pushing her away when he should be turning to her for comfort and support in such a stressful time.

Plus we have the fact that if Sybelle's plot with Tywin did not come about until after Robb and Jeyne are married, they would have no practical way to communicate with each other because the Spicers have lost their castle, and their ravens, and are then transferred to Riverrun where a careful eye is kept on everyone entering and leaving. This plan had to have come about before the Crag was taken, or else Sybelle is taking a tremendous risk of running afoul of Tywin's wroth, and that means she had to not just promise that Robb and Jeyne would fall in love and get married but guarantee it.

Yes, Jeyne continues to love Robb until the present day. It's hard to say whether she was dosed too or if it is genuine. Could go either way, but if it is the latter, that would not be unusual because Robb is a handsome young king. Jeyne, meanwhile, is pretty enough but no one understands what drove him to give up his kingdom for her.

[Bernie Mac]

Robb did not marry a Spicer, he married a Westerling. I doubt 16 year old Robb cared or knew anything about the Spicers lineage, at least not in the same way that Kevan Lannister knew about them.

Robb bristled at that. "The Westerlings are better blood than the Freys. They're an ancient line, descended from the First Men. The Kings of the Rock sometimes wed Westerlings before the Conquest, and there was another Jeyne Westerling who was queen to King Maegor three hundred years ago."

I do think you are making a bigger deal about this than is warranted. Sansa was betrothed to the heir of Westeros. Her grandmother was a mountain clan member from the Flint branch.

A Westerling marrying a daughter of a wealthy merchant house is not exactly unknown. Lord Corbray, a House is with a better pedigree than the Westerlings, did the same.

If they could use this love potion to make Robb do something he did not want to do why not have him sue for peace?

[John Suburbs]

15 hours ago, teej6 said:

R+L=J certainly has more clues and hints in the text besides “Promise me, Ned”. I’m not outright discounting your love potion/ Robb being drugged theory. But can’t it be the more simpler explanation that Jeyne nursed and comforted Robb while he was recovering from a wound plus the added trauma of the news of Bran and Rickon’s deaths... a period when Robb was not in full control of his faculties and thinking clearly. If as you say, Robb was drugged wouldn’t he have felt something amiss about the whole affair? True, we don’t have a Robb POV, but as far as we know, he loved Jeyne after they became man and wife and suspected nothing funny or untoward about their relationship. We already have Sybell giving Jeyne moon tea and another similar line of storytelling may just be overkill for the Westerling plot. 

Of course Robb would not know anything was amiss. What would be the point of a love potion if the victim knows he is only feeling these things because he is under the spell of a love potion?

Robb just falling in love is not the simpler explanation. He is wounded, taking opiates, and now grieving for his brothers and suddenly this turns into such a burning passion for this rather plain-looking girl that he throws away is kingdom for her? Sorry, but no. The simpler explanation is that he was potioned, and what better time to do that when he is in the pit of sorrow?

Plus we have the fact that this plot between Sybelle and Tywin could not have come about just as a result of Robb and Jeyne getting married. Once the Crag falls, the Westerlings have no practical way to communication over long distances. They don't control their ravens anymore, and the castle is on lock-down with no one coming or going without leave. Same thing at Riverrun. So that means Sybelle would be taking a tremendous risk by defying Tywin, and her own husband, in this way, and only through the most unlikely of fortuitous circumstances was she able to get out of it. Sorry, but the more likely explanation is that this granddaughter of the maegi who makes love potions used one to guarantee to Tywin that Robb and Jeyne would marry.

RLJ "clues and hints." Sure there are plenty of those -- visions and dreams of blue roses, dragons and all kinds of things -- but of actual evidence there is precious little. And none, in fact, that puts Rhaegar and Lyanna anywhere near each other after Harrenhall. The evidence I present here is firmly established in reality: Maggy does make love potions, the Spicer women have married far above their successive stations to men showing "more honor than sense", Jeyne does have a heart-shaped face just like Mel and Shiera Seastar, Robb does grow cold toward Jeyne shortly after their marriage -- the overwhelming, burning passion for her that caused him to give up the Freys and his kingdom is gone. All of these things are verified in the text, whereas the only thing verified for RLJ is the bloody bed and "Promise me, Ned."

[kissdbyfire]

51 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The pattern is right there for all to see. Jeyne is now the third Spicer woman in four generations to marry far above her station to husbands who showed "more honor than sense."

She is not though. a spice merchant married Maggy the Frog, and their son married and unknown, unnamed woman, and they are Sybell’s parents. Sybell married Westerling, and Jeyne married Robb. And that’s it. 

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, TPTWP Timett said:

The Spicer's are definitely the movers in the Westerling family. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a potion I just think it's Jeyne acting bewitched

Really? Why Jeyne? What benefit could they get from dosing her but not Robb?

[John Suburbs]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

She is not though. a spice merchant married Maggy the Frog, and their son married and unknown, unnamed woman, and they are Sybell’s parents. Sybell married Westerling, and Jeyne married Robb. And that’s it. 

Sorry, but that is not it. Each of the Spicer women married far above their stations; that is a fact.

The wealthy original Spicer somehow winds up with a weird witch woman from Asshai rather than the daughter of an equally wealthy supplier or magistrate in Yi Ti, the spice capital of the Jade Sea. Any other bride would have come with a hefty dowry and cemented highly lucrative political or business connections, but instead he drags home this highly unusual bride who brings nothing to the marriage and is eventually cast out of the house and spends her days as a ragged street person selling fortunes and love potions.

Next, we have Maggy's son, who for no discernable reason is suddenly ennobled by Tytos. The only other time he has done this that we know about was when kennelmaster Clegane saved him from a lion, and all he got was a knighthood. So what could this Spice boy have possible done to warrant a lordship? Did he provide an unusually tasty batch of saffron?

Then we have Sybelle, who married far above her station to Gawen "more honor than sense" Westerling, who has pretty much diminished his house's fortunes by producing children of such low pedigree (upjumped merchants) that he is unlikely to find suitable matches for them.

And finally Jeyne, who lands not just a lord but a king, who also showed more honor than sense by marrying her.

At some point, there are just too many coincidences to ignore. The one common denominator in all of this is the love potion.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I gotta go with @John Suburbs here. There is much there for it to be coincidental, doesn't mean it isn't, of course. It could be something George wrote without realizing the connections but I find that highly unlikely. If he wrote it realizing the connections (which I'm sure he did) there almost certainly has to be something to it. 

 

[Therae]

Although Jeyne and her parents were specifically given pardons in SoS Jaime IX, I always got the feeling from this conversation that the Sybell was plotting with Tywin from more or less the moment Robb arrived at the Crag based on all the demands she made on Jaime in FFC Jaime VII:

Quote

Jeyne burst from her chair and would have fled the room if the guard at the door had not seized her by the arm. "She is not," said Lady Sybell, as her daughter struggled to escape. "I made certain of that, as your lord father bid me."
Jaime nodded. Tywin Lannister was not a man to overlook such details. "Unhand the girl," he said, "I'm done with her for now." As Jeyne fled sobbing down the stairs, he considered her mother. "House Westerling has its pardon, and your brother Rolph has been made Lord of Castamere. What else would you have of us?"
"Your lord father promised me worthy marriages for Jeyne and her younger sister. Lords or heirs, he swore to me, not younger sons nor household knights."
Lords or heirs. To be sure. The Westerlings were an old House, and proud, but Lady Sybell herself had been born a Spicer, from a line of upjumped merchants. Her grandmother had been some sort of half-mad witch woman from the east, he seemed to recall. And the Westerlings were impoverished. Younger sons would have been the best that Sybell Spicer's daughters could have hoped for in the ordinary course of events, but a nice fat pot of Lannister gold would make even a dead rebel's widow look attractive to some lord. "You'll have your marriages," said Jaime, "but Jeyne must wait two full years before she weds again." If the girl took another husband too soon and had a child by him, inevitably there would come whispers that the Young Wolf was the father.

That's not a handslap, that's a reward of the make-it-worth-my-while-to-stay-loyal-to-House-Lannister variety. I don't think it was enough to ensure Jeyne produced no wolfpups. The real damage to Robb's cause was marrying Jeyne, and if that ball was rolling by the time Tywin heard about it, I doubt he'd have rewarded them at all.

Quote

Lord Tywin said politely, "as are we. Greyjoy demands half the kingdom as the price of alliance, but what will he do to earn it? Fight the Starks? He is doing that already. Why should we pay for what he has given us for free?  - SOS Tyrion III

If Sybell dosed Robb and maybe Jeyne, too, it wouldn't surprise me. If you're an opportunistic actual witch and you have an opportunity to ruin relations between the Young Wolf and his allies, do you leave it to hormones, emotional vulnerability, and your virgin daughter, or do you help it along? The motive is there--and if Jeyne ever was anything like her mother's daughter, she isn't anymore (really I think Tywin was wrong about this--Jeyne seems really in love with Robb, and I don't think you'd get that from a love potion).

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but that is not it. Each of the Spicer women married far above their stations; that is a fact.

 The wealthy original Spicer somehow winds up with a weird witch woman from Asshai rather than the daughter of an equally wealthy supplier or magistrate in Yi Ti, the spice capital of the Jade Sea.

It’s stated that Maggy was from Essos, not specifically from Asshai iirc. And your maths still doesn’t add up, since you said 3 “Spicer” women married far above their station. The truth is, Sybell married up in terms of pedigree, but there’s nothing odd in that marriage: old impoverished nobility marrying into new money is not unheard of, even irl. 

 

[Frey family reunion]

I agree with @John Suburbs that GRRM is certainly at least hinting that there may have been something untoward going on with Robb’s sudden decision to marry Jeyne.  Otherwise why give her an ancestor that was known to dabble in love potions?  Doesn’t mean that’s what happened, but GRRM is teasing it as a possibility.  

What’s really interesting about this subplot, is it’s the only example I can think of where there was a fairly major editing of text from the original edition of AFFC (I think that was the book) and the current editions.

In the original version Jaime noted that

Quote

She did not look dangerous.  Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful.  She had narrow hips, breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe.

Which was a slightly different description given of Jeyne earlier in ASOS when Cat describes her:

Quote

Queen.  Yes, this pretty little girl is a queen, I must remember that.  She was pretty, undeniably, with chestnut curls and heart-shaped face, and that shy smile.  Slender, but with good hips, Catelyn noted.  She should have no trouble bearing children, at least.

Later editions, at least some, excise the description of the narrow hips.  I confirmed it when reading a recent hard cover edition at Barnes and Nobles but unfortunately both of my ebook versions reference the narrow hips, so I can’t give the exact quote.

Anyway it was an interesting edit.  The original  discrepancy launched a number of theories that the girl Jaime saw was in reality Jeyne’s sister, and that the Blackfish had snuck the real Jeyne from Riverrun, and perhaps snuck off Robb’s unborn child with them.

Also of note.  The description of heart shaped face may be another clue.  It’s the description given of both Melisandre in the books, and another witch, Shiera Seastar when GRRM gave an artist a description of her.  ETA never mind I see that @John Suburbs already referenced it.

[kissdbyfire]

Martin talked about the discrepancy in the description of Jeyne Westerling’s hips. 

—-

UNION SQUARE SIGNING

[Note: This report refers to the question of Jeyne Westerlings hips, described by Catelyn as being "good" for the purposes of having children, and described by Jaime as "narrow". This seeming contradiction has sparked theories that the girl Jaime sees and is told is Jeyne is in fact an impostor.]

I actually asked GRRM about this at the union square signing. When he spoke he said some mismatched descriptions are him doing it on purpose, and some are mistakes. And the mistakes are really unfortunate because it detracts from when he does it on purpose.

When we approached the stage for signings we had the chance to ask a quick question, and he told me that that the hips were a mistake unfortunately.

—-

I assume newer editions were corrected, since he said these mistakes detract from when he’s doing it on purpose. 

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s stated that Maggy was from Essos, not specifically from Asshai iirc. And your maths still doesn’t add up, since you said 3 “Spicer” women married far above their station. The truth is, Sybell married up in terms of pedigree, but there’s nothing odd in that marriage: old impoverished nobility marrying into new money is not unheard of, even irl. 

 

I'll have to check. I'm pretty sure there was something that connected her specifically to Asshai. Her true name is too long and foreign for Westerosi to pronounce, which would not be the case if she were from, say, Volantis or Lys. Regardless of where she is from, she most certainly did not bring any benefit to Spicer the way a typical wife should. And she eventually left the house, or was drummed out, to live as a ragged wretch on the streets.

For Gawen, it's not unheard of but it was certainly not a smart move. Now, his children are incapable of making advantageous marriages for themselves, or for House Westerling, because they are the get of upjumped merchants. This is why Kevan says Gawen has "more honor than sense." But, surprise surprise, Jeyne somehow manages to land herself a bloody king!

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree with @John Suburbs that GRRM is certainly at least hinting that there may have been something untoward going on with Robb’s sudden decision to marry Jeyne.  Otherwise why give her an ancestor that was known to dabble in love potions?  Doesn’t mean that’s what happened, but GRRM is teasing it as a possibility.  

What’s really interesting about this subplot, is it’s the only example I can think of where there was a fairly major editing of text from the original edition of AFFC (I think that was the book) and the current editions.

In the original version Jaime noted that

Which was a slightly different description given of Jeyne earlier in ASOS when Cat describes her:

Later editions, at least some, excise the description of the narrow hips.  I confirmed it when reading a recent hard cover edition at Barnes and Nobles but unfortunately both of my ebook versions reference the narrow hips, so I can’t give the exact quote.

Anyway it was an interesting edit.  The original  discrepancy launched a number of theories that the girl Jaime saw was in reality Jeyne’s sister, and that the Blackfish had snuck the real Jeyne from Riverrun, and perhaps snuck off Robb’s unborn child with them.

Also of note.  The description of heart shaped face may be another clue.  It’s the description given of both Melisandre in the books, and another witch, Shiera Seastar when GRRM gave an artist a description of her.  ETA never mind I see that @John Suburbs already referenced it.

Of course. If there was absolute, undeniable proof here, then we wouldn't even be discussing it because it would just be a simple fact. But aSoIaF is rife with examples where major surprises are revealed and it's only later that we look back in the text and say "there's a clue, there's another one." So maybe this is a whole lot of nothing, but maybe its one of those cases where the truth will finally be revealed and we'll all say "Oh, yes, love potions, and look at all the weird Spicer marriages . . ."

What's silly is to just say that there is no evidence to consider here because we've already determined all the facts.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Therae said:

Although Jeyne and her parents were specifically given pardons in SoS Jaime IX, I always got the feeling from this conversation that the Sybell was plotting with Tywin from more or less the moment Robb arrived at the Crag based on all the demands she made on Jaime in FFC Jaime VII:

That's not a handslap, that's a reward of the make-it-worth-my-while-to-stay-loyal-to-House-Lannister variety. I don't think it was enough to ensure Jeyne produced no wolfpups. The real damage to Robb's cause was marrying Jeyne, and if that ball was rolling by the time Tywin heard about it, I doubt he'd have rewarded them at all.

If Sybell dosed Robb and maybe Jeyne, too, it wouldn't surprise me. If you're an opportunistic actual witch and you have an opportunity to ruin relations between the Young Wolf and his allies, do you leave it to hormones, emotional vulnerability, and your virgin daughter, or do you help it along? The motive is there--and if Jeyne ever was anything like her mother's daughter, she isn't anymore (really I think Tywin was wrong about this--Jeyne seems really in love with Robb, and I don't think you'd get that from a love potion).

They had to have been plotting before the Crag fell because once Sybelle lost the castle she pretty much lost her ability to communicate over long distances. She has no more ravens, and all comings and goings from both the Crag and Riverrun are strictly monitored.

So if this is the case, she has to be rock-solid certain that Robb and Jeyne will marry, and the only way to guarantee that is through a love potion, which, fortunately, Sybelle has access to. And yes, Tywin is still going to play ball with Sybelle after Robb and Jeyne are married because he needs her to ensure that Jeyne won't conceive Robb's child.

Jeyne may or may not have been potioned as well. It's not all that crucial that she be dosed because if Robb is suddenly madly passionately in love with her, it's not likely she will resist. Robb is good-looking and he's a king. But she might have been. There is no reason to think that she wouldn't still love him after it has worn off. Robb, though, is clearly growing colder and more distant as time goes by -- more tolerating her than turning to her for comfort and support like he should be.

[Therae]

3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But she might have been. There is no reason to think that she wouldn't still love him after it has worn off. Robb, though, is clearly growing colder and more distant as time goes by -- more tolerating her than turning to her for comfort and support like he should be.

My gut feeling is that she was dosed, too, Tristan and Isolde style, and then fell in love with him for real, so wearing off didn't have much effect. It would explain why Sybell is so nasty to her about it, if the last thing she expected was that Jeyne would actually be loyal to Robb and his memory.

I don't think Tywin would play THAT much ball over the baby. I think the deal was aimed at getting Robb to break faith with the Freys, and the non-baby was just cleaning up potential loose ends; if, once the RW was scheduled, and they hadn't already been in cahoots with Tywin from the get go, the only thing the Westerlings had to offer was ensuring Robb fathered no posthumous children of his body, I think the exchange would have been more like: no Starklings or no Westerlings.

[kissdbyfire]

36 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I'll have to check. I'm pretty sure there was something that connected her specifically to Asshai. Her true name is too long and foreign for Westerosi to pronounce, which would not be the case if she were from, say, Volantis or Lys.

I don’t recall any connection between Maggy and Asshai, nor any mention of Asshai in the few times she’s brought up. And I can’t pronounce any of the Essosi names, that alone means nothing. 

36 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Regardless of where she is from, she most certainly did not bring any benefit to Spicer the way a typical wife should.

This is pure guesswork on your part, since nothing is said that supports the idea. It sort of supports what you’re proposing, and you decided to run w/ it. Fine, but don’t state it as if it’s a well established fact b/c it isn’t. 

36 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And she eventually left the house, or was drummed out, to live as a ragged wretch on the streets.

Again, speculation. Or if I’m misremembering please give me a quote to back it up. Off the top of my head I don’t remember anything like this being said at any point. Iirc, it’s said in a Cersei chapter that she did her witchery stuff in a tent or something to that effect, but there’s nothing about Maggy living on the streets. I could be wrong, though, that’s why I’m asking for a quote. 

36 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

For Gawen, it's not unheard of but it was certainly not a smart move.

Why? Like I said before, impoverished nobles marrying into a rich merchant family is not that uncommon. 

36 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Now, his children are incapable of making advantageous marriages for themselves, or for House Westerling, because they are the get of upjumped merchants. This is why Kevan says Gawen has "more honor than sense." But, surprise surprise, Jeyne somehow manages to land herself a bloody king!

What kind of advantageous marriages would the Westerling kids be able to make otherwise? None of the higher nobility would want to marry their sons and daughters into a poor family, no matter that they are an old and noble family. 

[Frey family reunion]

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t recall any connection between Maggy and Asshai, nor any mention of Asshai in the few times she’s brought up. And I can’t pronounce any of the Essosi names, that alone means nothing. 

Yea I don’t see it mentioned that Maggy or Grandma Spicer were from Asshai.  I think the closest clue is that Taena Merryweather’s Myrish accent reminded Cersei of Maggy.

Quote

It was a woman’s voice, flavored with the accents of the east.  For an instant she feared that Maggy the Frog was speaking to her from the grave.  But it was only Merryweather’s wife, the sloe-eyed beauty Lord Orton had wed during his exile and fetched home with him to Longtable.

But I think it can be argued that all the variations of the eastern accents may sound the same to Cersei.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea I don’t see it mentioned that Maggy or Grandma Spicer were from Asshai.  I think the closest clue is that Taena Merryweather’s Myrish accent reminded Cersei of Maggy.

Yeah, makes sense. Nice catch, I didn’t remember that at all.

6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But I think it can be argued that all the variations of the eastern accents may sound the same to Cersei.

[Lucia Targaryen]

Some people may not be aware of this but Sybell Spicer's grandmother is Maggy the Frog and has been known to sell love potions. So it's possible that Sybell slipped something into Robb's food while he was recovering from his injuries.