Was Robb drugged?

[Lollygag]

22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I dont recall him really, really, really didn't want to marry one of Walders daughters but I haven't read that part in a while. 

I understand what you are saying in regards to responsibility but if you agree he was drugged what responsibility would he own for that? 

There's degrees of magic/drugs/alcohol influence. On one end, there's "mind control" and you're not liable for what you do and on the other there's only loosening inhibitions where you still own your actions.

To underline how awful Frey marriages were perceived, we see what a fit Edmure throws right before the RW.

AGOT Catelyn IX

"A squire." He shrugged. "Fine, that's fine, if he's—"

"Also, if your sister Arya is returned to us safely, it is agreed that she will marry Lord Walder's youngest son, Elmar, when the two of them come of age."

Robb looked nonplussed. "Arya won't like that one bit."

"And you are to wed one of his daughters, once the fighting is done," she finished. "His lordship has graciously consented to allow you to choose whichever girl you prefer. He has a number he thinks might be suitable."

To his credit, Robb did not flinch. "I see."

"Do you consent?"

"Can I refuse?"

"Not if you wish to cross."

"I consent," Robb said solemnly. He had never seemed more manly to her than he did in that moment. Boys might play with swords, but it took a lord to make a marriage pact, knowing what it meant.

 

Adding - Jon also called out Robb for being into Myrcella so there's some set up there for Robb having a weakness where it comes to pretty girls.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

13 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

There's degrees of magic/drugs/alcohol influence. On one end, there's "mind control" and you're not liable for what you do and on the other there's only loosening inhibitions where you still own your actions.

Yeah I wouldn't think it would be to the level of mind control but a love potion would do the trick. Manipulating his feelings would be enough I think. 

14 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

To underline how awful Frey marriages were perceived, we see what a fit Edmure throws right before the RW.

Sure, but Edmure isn't Robb. I don't think all Frey marriages are mean to be seen as horrendous only they have seen some of his brood & some aren't all that pretty.

15 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

And you are to wed one of his daughters, once the fighting is done," she finished. "His lordship has graciously consented to allow you to choose whichever girl you prefer. He has a number he thinks might be suitable."

To his credit, Robb did not flinch. "I see."

"Do you consent?"

"Can I refuse?"

"Not if you wish to cross."

"I consent," Robb said solemnly. He had never seemed more manly to her than he did in that moment. Boys might play with swords, but it took a lord to make a marriage pact, knowing what it meant.

Maybe we just read this different but I don't see anything here to indicate he really, really, really didn't want to marry a Frey. It's explicitly stated he doesn't flinch. 

He agreed quickly enough albeit "solemnly" but I would think that has as much to do with being betrothed when he didn't expect to be & to a woman he cannot even name as it would to do with being a Frey. 

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Exactly my point. Robb is his father’s son and if he dishonors a girl, he will do the honorable thing and marry her. That’s what I get from Tywin’s statement. As I said, I don’t doubt Tywin and Sybell had an agreement. Robb spend some time in the Crag recuperating. It is more likely that during this time, Tywin and Sybell planned for Jeyne to nurse Robb and hoped that the emotionally and physically injured Robb would find Jeyne attractive and stumble, which he did. Tywin also knew if this were to happen, Robb being his father’s son would do the honorable thing and marry Jeyne. Love potions is a bit much for me. Like a poster above said, it removes all agency from Robb’s actions.

Here’s the Tywin/ Tyrion conversation. Tywin was hoping Robb would deflower Jeyne and do the honorable thing and marry her since he was his father’s son:

And as to your argument that Robb grew cold with Jeyne, I provided you samples of the text proving otherwise. Robb bidding farewell to his wife three times on the same day is not an indication of coldness but rather love and affection. And the passage you quoted proves only that Robb was troubled and had much on his mind — he had lost WF, his brothers, the Frey army, and the Karstarks. 

The other argument that makes the love potion theory unlikely is that Jeyne was truly in love with Robb. If the whole thing was a charade, no need for her to keep up the act after Robb’s death. But Jaime observers that’s she’s visibly upset and mourning the death of her husband. Unless, you are arguing that Jeyne fell in love with a man who wasn’t in love with her and continues to mourn him despite knowing that he never actually loved her. I find that a bit of a stretch.

This is the crucial element of Tywin's entire plan to take down Robb without having to go to war. If this marriage fails to happen, then it's a long, hard slog to victory, all while Stannis is at his back. So ask yourself, is a smart, crafty man like Tywin, let alone a schemer like Sybelle, going to pin their hopes on maybe Robb and Jeyne will get married just because -- having never even met him -- they think he is like his father, or do you think they prefer a plan where they will most definitely get married?

I can't imagine that when Tywin says Robb is his father's son that he is not talking about his honor and is instead certain that Robb will fall into another woman's bed just because Ned did. There is no reason to expect that an honorable man will break his sworn word for another woman unless he is driven to it by overwhelming, uncontrollable passion. And Jeyne is not the sort of girl who produces such passions in men.

There are a couple ways to view the conversation with Tywin and Kevan:

1 -- Tywin does not know, nor does he care, how Sybelle pulled it off. She promised, she delivered; that's all he cares about. In this view, he actually does believe that Robb blundered. Or,

2 -- Tywin is very careful about sharing information. There is no need to tell Tyrion or Kevan exactly how it all went down, just that this is what happened. The last thing he wants is for Tyrion to blab to Sansa or Kevan to blab to his wife, or Lancel, that this was a love potion. In this way, he can spread the story that Robb did this to himself, just like he spreads the story that it was the Freys who then killed him on their own. Clean hands.

Robb bid farewell to Jeyne three times: once in the godswood in a religious ceremony, once in the portcullis when Robb left the castle, and once on the road when Jeyne came running after him pleading to come along. "He speaks to her gently, she thought as she watched them together, but there is anger underneath." So no, this is not love and affection, this is duty and annoyance.

Yes, Robb is troubled, and being troubled he should turn to the love of his life for comfort and support, not ignore her and send her away.

And yes, Jeyne is clearly truly in love with Robb. Who's to say that she received a potion to begin with or that even if it had worn off she wouldn't still be in love with her tall, handsome king? She doesn't think Robb stopped loving her. She just assumes he is careworn, just like you do.

This is the craftiness of the writer we are dealing with. So many things seem odd, but yet still possible, and it's only later that we realize the truth: six direwolf pups, four males and two females -- and six Stark children, four males and two females; the wolves somehow know when their Stark is afraid or in trouble -- animals can sense when their owners are upset; Mormont has a talking raven -- it's rare for ravens to talk but not unheard of; Sweetrobin to be fostered with Stannis or Tywin -- so what? we all know Cersei killed Jon Arryn . . .

And on and on. So of course this could all be perfectly natural; the Spicer women just seem to attract highly beneficial husbands for themselves; the first Spicer just happens to make love potions; Robb just happens to grow more distant over time. And yet, why would Martin even think to add this backstory to the Spicers unless it meant something? In a novel that is already twice the size of the first two, why bother adding this utterly superfluous, meaningless text?

I honestly do think we will learn the truth someday. Perhaps, if the rumors are true, in the TWOW prologue.

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Don't at all buy that none of the responsibility is on Robb. Falling to a Machiavellian mastermind is predictable and expected and was already laid out from the start with Tywin vs Robb. Falling to the mastermind because of his own flaws when he was in such an unexpectedly strong position is interesting.

I think Robb was manipulated, but only enough to push him over the edge where he had already put himself not unlike what we see with other characters. GRRM has people fall to others as a result of their own flaws and blindness. Almost to a one.

Well, if all of GRRM's characters fall as the result of their own flaws, then wouldn't it be predictable and expected if Robb were to do the same?

Robb was not in a strong position at this point: Winterfell had fallen, his two heirs were killed, the Lannisters had allied with the Tyrells and they had just smashed Stannis on the Blackwater. His position is actually pretty bleak.

[teej6]

56 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Snip...

I can't imagine that when Tywin says Robb is his father's son that he is not talking about his honor and is instead certain that Robb will fall into another woman's bed just because Ned did. There is no reason to expect that an honorable man will break his sworn word for another woman unless he is driven to it by overwhelming, uncontrollable passion. And Jeyne is not the sort of girl who produces such passions in men.

Snip...

There are a couple ways to view the conversation with Tywin and Kevan:

1 -- Tywin does not know, nor does he care, how Sybelle pulled it off. She promised, she delivered; that's all he cares about. In this view, he actually does believe that Robb blundered...

I’m on my phone and my muti-quote function is giving me trouble so I snipped your post. Just addressing part of it.

In regards to the bolded, when/ where did I state or imply that Tywin believes since Robb is his father’s son that he will “fall into another woman’s hands”? What I stated was that Tywin, knowing Robb to be his father’s son, would do the honorable thing if he happened to deflower Jeyne (which is what Tywin and Sybell where hoping and planning for). 

And why do you assume that an honorable man would not “break his sworn word to another woman unless he is driven to it by overwhelming, uncontrollable passion”. Yes, honorable men in the series are shown to take a woman’s honor and chastity very seriously. But in this case, Robb didn’t even know who is betrothed was. He hasn’t seen her, doesn’t know who she is... kind of hard to be loyal to an unknown. He begrudgingly accepted a crummy old man’s terms. To add to that, he was wounded and perhaps emotionally unstable (after hearing of the deaths of his brothers) and lonely when he succumbed to his feelings for Jeyne — no need for “overwhelming uncontrollable passion” here. He could just have been a lonely teenage in a lot of pain and emotional stress. And if we add milk of the poppy or some other pain killer to the mix, then we have a lonely, sad teenager who is in pain and not thinking clearly. No need for any “uncontrollable passion” or love potion here IMO.

So now you argue that Tywin may not have known about the love potion plot. This goes against your earlier argument/ statement: “So Tywin and Sybelle are plotting to bring down the King in the North just on the vague hope that Robb will fall for Jeyne, whom everybody agrees is moderately pretty but not someone to give up a crown for?“

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah I wouldn't think it would be to the level of mind control but a love potion would do the trick. Manipulating his feelings would be enough I think. 

I don't think his feelings were manipulated, just that his inhibitions were removed at a time of weakness. He seems to genuinely care for Jeyne. I'm also not quick to overlook that Robb is a teenage boy.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, but Edmure isn't Robb. I don't think all Frey marriages are mean to be seen as horrendous only they have seen some of his brood & some aren't all that pretty. 

My impression is that the Freys are seen as universally unattractive and not just physically. Roslin was a freak exception. The Starks would never have married into the Freys unless blackmailed.

ASOS Catelyn II

"He is not reasonable," said Catelyn. "He is proud, and prickly to a fault. You know that. He wanted to be grandfather to a king. You will not appease him with the offer of two hoary old brigands and the second son of the fattest man in the Seven Kingdoms. Not only have you broken your oath, but you've slighted the honor of the Twins by choosing a bride from a lesser house."

 

Robb bristled at that. "The Westerlings are better blood than the Freys. They're an ancient line, descended from the First Men. The Kings of the Rock sometimes wed Westerlings before the Conquest, and there was another Jeyne Westerling who was queen to King Maegor three hundred years ago."

"All of which will only salt Lord Walder's wounds. It has always rankled him that older houses look down on the Freys as upstarts. This insult is not the first he's borne, to hear him tell it. Jon Arryn was disinclined to foster his grandsons, and my father refused the offer of one of his daughters for Edmure." She inclined her head toward her brother as he rejoined them.

TWOIAF - Westerlands

Late that year, Lord Tytos agreed to wed his seven-year-old daughter, Genna, to a younger son of Walder Frey, Lord of the Crossing. Though but ten years of age, Tywin denounced the betrothal in scathing terms. Lord Tytos did not relent, yet still men could see that this ironwilled, fearless child was hard beyond his years and nothing like his amiable father.

It's not accurate that the Freys are looked down upon for being upstarts though this is usually the first assumption to keep from taking responsibility for their own behavior. The problem is that they come off as white trash trying to run in aristocratic circles. The Tyrells are recent upstarts from a steward but no one has a problem with them because they fit in with the aristocracy. Same happens in rl.

Robb was all about Myrcella which Jon called out + Robb upset about marrying a Frey who are unattractive both physically and often in personality + a moment of weakness while injured + mourning over Theon/Winterfell/Bran/Rickon + Florence Nightingale effect from Jeyne + a little something to reduce inhibitions = RW

37 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe we just read this different but I don't see anything here to indicate he really, really, really didn't want to marry a Frey. It's explicitly stated he doesn't flinch. 

He agreed quickly enough albeit "solemnly" but I would think that has as much to do with being betrothed when he didn't expect to be & to a woman he cannot even name as it would to do with being a Frey. 

We are reading this very differently. "To his credit..." is what matters - Catelyn is stating that it's news which warranted a very bad reaction and Robb had to use willpower to keep his composure.

The bold is a reasonable interpretation but when put against the attitude everyone in Westeros shares against the rat-faced Freys which is so often repeated throughout the books, it takes on another meaning. All of the major houses have a signature look, and the Freys' is not a good one. Piper only assumes they're not all ugly because he's relying on statistics but the reputation is established.

AGOT Catelyn IX

As the northern lords studied the castle, a sally port opened, a plank bridge slid across the moat, and a dozen knights rode forth to confront them, led by four of Lord Walder's many sons. Their banner bore twin towers, dark blue on a field of pale silver-grey. Ser Stevron Frey, Lord Walder's heir, spoke for them. The Freys all looked like weasels; Ser Stevron, past sixty with grandchildren of his own, looked like an especially old and tired weasel, yet he was polite enough. "My lord father has sent me to greet you, and inquire as to who leads this mighty host."

 

ASOS Jaime I

The Lannister blood runs thin in this one. Cleos was his Aunt Genna's son by that dullard Emmon Frey, who had lived in terror of Lord Tywin Lannister since the day he wed his sister. When Lord Walder Frey had brought the Twins into the war on the side of Riverrun, Ser Emmon had chosen his wife's allegiance over his father's. Casterly Rock got the worst of that bargain, Jaime reflected. Ser Cleos looked like a weasel, fought like a goose, and had the courage of an especially brave ewe. Lady Stark had promised him release if he delivered her message to Tyrion, and Ser Cleos had solemnly vowed to do so.

ASOS Catelyn V

Her brother Edmure had other cares. "You don't suppose all Lord Walder's daughters look like him, do you?" he wondered, as he sat in his tall striped pavilion with Catelyn and his friends.

"With so many different mothers, a few of the maids are bound to turn up comely," said Ser Marq Piper, "but why should the old wretch give you a pretty one?"

ASOS Catelyn VI

"How long have you been talking? Not that you're like to have anything sensible to say, your father never did. He's a bastard's son besides, heh. Go away, I wanted only Freys up here. The King in the North has no interest in base stock." Lord Walder glanced to Robb, as Jinglebell bobbed his head and chimed. "There they are, all maidens. Well, and one widow, but there's some who like a woman broken in. You might have had any one of them."

"It would have been an impossible choice, my lord," said Robb with careful courtesy. "They're all too lovely."

Lord Walder snorted. "And they say my eyes are bad. Some will do well enough, I suppose. Others . . . well, it makes no matter. They weren't good enough for the King in the North, heh. Now what is it you have to say?"

 

AGOT Jon I

After them came the children. Little Rickon first, managing the long walk with all the dignity a three-year-old could muster. Jon had to urge him on when he stopped to visit. Close behind came Robb, in grey wool trimmed with white, the Stark colors. He had the Princess Myrcella on his arm. She was a wisp of a girl, not quite eight, her hair a cascade of golden curls under a jeweled net. Jon noticed the shy looks she gave Robb as they passed between the tables and the timid way she smiled at him. He decided she was insipid. Robb didn't even have the sense to realize how stupid she was; he was grinning like a fool. 

 

If GRRM didn't want to introduce doubt as to Robb's intentions in regards to his marriage situation, then I can't see the point of adding Robb acting like a fool around a pretty girl, making a Frey marriage so revolting to the reader, showing so many in the books having a strong negative reaction to a Frey marriage and then underscoring this reaction through Edmure right before the RW where Robb payed for his marriage to Jeyne. And he calls it out directly and Robb doesn't deny it.

ASOS Catelyn VI

Pale wispy Lady Frey seemed startled that she would be called upon to speak. "Y-yes, my lord. We all so wanted to pay homage to Queen Jeyne. She must be fair to look on."

"She is most fair, my lady." There was an icy stillness in Robb's voice that reminded Catelyn of his father.

The old man either did not hear it or refused to pay it any heed. "Fairer than my own get, heh? Elsewise how could her face and form have made the King's Grace forget his solemn promise."

Robb suffered the rebuke with dignity. "No words can set that right, I know, but I have come to make my apologies for the wrong I did your House, and to beg for your forgiveness, my lord."

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, if all of GRRM's characters fall as the result of their own flaws, then wouldn't it be predictable and expected if Robb were to do the same?

Robb was not in a strong position at this point: Winterfell had fallen, his two heirs were killed, the Lannisters had allied with the Tyrells and they had just smashed Stannis on the Blackwater. His position is actually pretty bleak.

No. It's all in which flaw(s), how the character rationalizes, which choices they make along the way and external forces. Did you predict Robb's marriage and the RW? I sure didn't.

I agree with the second. That's why he only needed a little push to break, not mind control. Add to that he was injured and very upset over a very long list of things. And a teenage boy...

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

don't think his feelings were manipulated, just that his inhibitions were removed at a time of weakness. He seems to genuinely care for Jeyne. I'm also not quick to overlook that Robb is a teenage boy

Yeah, that's definitely not out of character for a teenage boy, I just think that would be a flimsy thing for Sybelle & Tywin to bank on. It would be far from a certainty. 

6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

It's not accurate that the Freys are looked down upon for being upstarts though this is usually the first assumption to keep from taking responsibility for their own behavior. The problem is that they come off as white trash trying to run in aristocratic circles. The Tyrells are recent upstarts from a steward but no one has a problem with them because they fit in with the aristocracy. Same happens in rl.

I see. You have a point irt how the Freys are looked at but don't the quotes kind of support that it is, at least partially, for being upstarts? 

What exactly do you mean by them coming off as white trash in aristocratic circles? Like what behavior of theirs specifically? I don't recall anything from the main series that points to this but I haven't read all of other books. 

I attributed their reputation to Walder playing both sides of the fence & showing up late to the battle. 

6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Robb was all about Myrcella which Jon called out + Robb upset about marrying a Frey who are unattractive both physically and often in personality + a moment of weakness while injured + mourning over Theon/Winterfell/Bran/Rickon + Florence Nightingale effect from Jeyne + a little something to reduce inhibitions = RW

Yeah I agree it's a reasonable explanation for Robb's behavior, the thing that gets me is that none of these things would be in Sybelle or Tywin's control other than Jeyne & it is just not a very sure thing to bank on. Now, if they weren't plotting until after he bed & wed Jeyne then they just took advantage of the opportunity but if they were plotting before that & I think they were, it just doesn't make much sense for someone as smart as Tywin to bank on something that probably won't happen. At least there wasn't much reason for Tywin to think it would. 

Having trouble quoting but I'll try to address the rest without quoting it.

The "To his credit" I agree with your assertion but I don't see any reason for it to be anything specifically Frey related, or at least not only Frey related. Robb was young, in the middle of a war, probably didn't want to be betrothed to anyone, had never looked at, spoke to, or learned the name of the woman he would be betrothed to, AND it was a Frey who are notoriously not very good looking. 

I guess my point is, he had lots of reasons to not be particularly happy about this but he still doesn't express it to the point that I would feel comfortable saying he really, really, really didn't want to. 

6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

If GRRM didn't want to introduce doubt as to Robb's intentions in regards to his marriage situation, then I can't see the point of adding Robb acting like a fool around a pretty girl, making a Frey marriage so revolting to the reader, showing so many in the books having a strong negative reaction to a Frey marriage and then underscoring this reaction through Edmure right before the RW where Robb payed for his marriage to Jeyne. And he calls it out directly and Robb doesn't deny

I take the contrast to how he behaved with Myrcella to mean he was a child then & becoming a man now. 

 

6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

agree with the second. That's why he only needed a little push to break, not mind control. Add to that he was injured and very upset over a very long list of things. And a teenage boy...

I may agree with this, at least I don't think there was any mind control involved but what do you think that little push is? 

See the thing for me is there just isn't any reason for Tywin to believe that Robb will sleep with a woman while betrothed no matter the state he is in. He is his fathers son. I take that to mean he has more honor than sense, just like Ned. Tywin wouldn't have known he would be injured, wouldn't have known he would be mourning over his brothers, etc 

[teej6]

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah I agree it's a reasonable explanation for Robb's behavior, the thing that gets me is that none of these things would be in Sybelle or Tywin's control other than Jeyne & it is just not a very sure thing to bank on. Now, if they weren't plotting until after he bed & wed Jeyne then they just took advantage of the opportunity but if they were plotting before that & I think they were, it just doesn't make much sense for someone as smart as Tywin to bank on something that probably won't happen. At least there wasn't much reason for Tywin to think it would. 

...

See the thing for me is there just isn't any reason for Tywin to believe that Robb will sleep with a woman while betrothed no matter the state he is in. He is his fathers son. I take that to mean he has more honor than sense, just like Ned. Tywin wouldn't have known he would be injured, wouldn't have known he would be mourning over his brothers, etc 

The text is not clear as to when Tywin and Sybell made their plans/ arrangements or what these plans entailed. All we know from a Jaime chapter in AFFC is that Sybell (by her own admission) was working with Tywin to help bring down Robb.

I’m not sure how long Robb spend at the Crag (someone else who’s good with ASOIAF timelines might be able to answer) but considering he was recovering from a festering wound, we can assume it was not an insignificant period of time. If so, this gave Sybell the time and opportunity to communicate with Tywin, perhaps initially to let him know they were under attack and after to assure him of her allegiance to the Lannisters. Sybell could have begun communicating with Tywin once she believed that the Crag would fall to Robb’s men. 

From Robb’s conversation with Cat, we know that Jeyne had Robb taken to her own bed. 

Quote

“I took her castle and she took my heart.” Robb smiled. “The Crag was weakly garrisoned, so we took it by storm one night. Black Walder and the Smalljon led scaling parties over the walls, while I broke the main gate with a ram. I took an arrow in the arm just before Ser Rolph yielded us the castle. It seemed nothing at first, but it festered. Jeyne had me taken to her own bed, and she nursed me until the fever passed. And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of . . . of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon.” He seemed to have trouble saying his brothers’ names. “That night, she . . . she comforted me, Mother.” Catelyn did not need to be told what sort of comfort Jeyne Westerling had offered her son. “And you wed her the next day.” He looked her in the eyes, proud and miserable all at once. “It was the only honorable thing to do. She’s gentle and sweet, Mother, she will make me a good wife.”

Jeyne took an enemy (someone who’s men had recently captured her father) into her own room and bed and made certain to put herself at Robb’s disposal. Tywin states that Jeyne is her mother’s daughter. By this, I’m assuming he meant that Jeyne knew how to attract and lure a man. (I’m still uncertain as to Jeyne’s part in all this. We know she truly loved Robb, but did she love him from the beginning and knew nothing about Sybell’s communications with Tywin or was she part of her mother’s plan initially?) 

I believe that once Sybell saw Jeyne was successful in making Robb fall for her, she could have communicated this to Tywin while still at the Crag. Again, we don’t have the specifics as to when and how Tywin and Sybell communicated — we know from the Jaime chapter that Sybell had made sure that Jeyne never had Robb’s child as Tywin “bid” her, and that Tywin had promised her marriages for her daughters with “Lord’s and heirs” and a bride from Casterly Rock for her son. For all we know, the plan to trap Robb could very well have been initiated by Sybell and she somehow managed to communicate this to Tywin before leaving the Crag. 

[Bernie Mac]

11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

My impression is that the Freys are seen as universally unattractive and not just physically. Roslin was a freak exception.

Roslin is not a freak exception, she may not even be the most attractive option for Edmure

"Everyone thought my lord would choose Fair Walda," Lady Walda Bolton told Ser Wendel, shouting to be heard above the music."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robb was seated between Alyx Frey and Fair Walda, two of the more nubile Frey maidens

And clearly Amerei is not unattractive.

One of the reasons why the Freys seem bad looking is the age of most of prominent characters who are described. Walder's grandson Ryman is of an age of Hoster Tully. The Lannisters are seen as beautiful, but if Tywin's father and uncles were still alive and were prominent characters the Lannisters beauty would not seem that great with a bunch of old men representing them.

 

And Ryman and at least two of his sons are pretty unattractive, but that does not give us an idea that the entire gene pool is as bad as those Ryman's branch. Stevron's  youngest son's branch seem far more attractive.

Sure, the Freys are not Lannister, Tyrell or Targareyn attractive, but it may be hyperbolic to say they are all universally unattractive.

 

 

Quote

 

The Starks would never have married into the Freys unless blackmailed.

First, they were not blackmailed. Do you think you are blackmailed when you go to the shop and want to buy something?

Second, you are probably right, a marriage would have been rare but that is down to the Starks rarely, apparently, marrying into Andal Houses. It should also be noted that the Freys themselves have no Northern alliances amongst their many, many marriages before Robb's betrothal.

However it seems a pretty dumb move by the Starks. A marriage alliance between them and the most powerful Riverland House, the House that rules the lands closest to their borders, seems like a pretty obvious plus for them. Had they done it before Aegon conquered the North may be even larger than it is now.

Quote

It's not accurate that the Freys are looked down upon for being upstarts

How is that not accurate?

It has always rankled him that older houses look down on the Freys as upstarts.

It is how Cat describes them, we have no reason to think she is lying or misinformed on the subject.

We even see in the era of Dunk & Egg how they are seen as upstarts

"His wealth is all from cows," said Maynard Plumm. "He ought to take a swollen udder for his arms. These Butterwells have milk running in their veins, and the Freys are no better. This will be a marriage of cattle thieves and toll collectors, one lot of coin clinkers joining with another.

And Robb himself hammers this point down

Robb bristled at that. "The Westerlings are better blood than the Freys. They're an ancient line, descended from the First Men. The Kings of the Rock sometimes wed Westerlings before the Conquest, and there was another Jeyne Westerling who was queen to King Maegor three hundred years ago."

The Freys are not an ancient line, as a result they are still looked down upon by many characters. 

Quote

 

though this is usually the first assumption to keep from taking responsibility for their own behavior. The problem is that they come off as white trash trying to run in aristocratic circles.

? I think you may be projecting here. What does that even mean in the context of Westeros nobility?

Quote

 

The Tyrells are recent upstarts from a steward but no one has a problem with them because they fit in with the aristocracy. Same happens in rl.

Well no, the Tyrells are not recent nobles. They were a noble House long before they ruled the Reach. The Tyrells are a noble branch that has existed for thousands of years, since the Andal invasion and with ties to the second Gardener King. The Tyrells had 10 royal marriages between them and the Gardeners.

Their house are not upstarts. They were nobility before they inherited Highgarden.

 

[Eternally_Theirs]

On 2/14/2020 at 1:12 AM, Robb4Ever said:

But what was their plan? Were they stringing him along like a pig to slaughter or was there something more to it?

Please answer? >.>

I am tired of my posts being ignored, especially in topics I've started.

[Lollygag]

 

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I see. You have a point irt how the Freys are looked at but don't the quotes kind of support that it is, at least partially, for being upstarts? 

What exactly do you mean by them coming off as white trash in aristocratic circles? Like what behavior of theirs specifically? I don't recall anything from the main series that points to this but I haven't read all of other books. 

I attributed their reputation to Walder playing both sides of the fence & showing up late to the battle. 

It's common for higher classes to look down upon people for not for being upstarts, but because they don't socially fit in, yet they'll say it's because they're upstarts. But they do accept upstarts who behave in a socially acceptable way. Upstart is only mentioned in connection with the Freys though there's a good number of houses which can be looked down upon as upstarts.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: House Tyrell

Afterward, a number of the other great houses of the Reach complained bitterly about being made vassals of an "upjumped steward" and insisted that their own blood was far nobler than that of the Tyrells. It cannot be denied that the Oakhearts of Old Oak, the Florents of Brightwater Keep, the Rowans of Goldengrove, the Peakes of Starpike, and the Redwynes of the Arbor all had older and more distinguished lineages than the Tyrells, and closer blood ties to House Gardener as well. Their protests were of no avail, however...mayhaps in part because all these houses had taken up arms against Aegon and his sisters on the Field of Fire, whereas the Tyrells had not.

In contrast, House Frey is twice as old as the Tyrells of Highgarden. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Frey

I'm struggling with you're not seeing the Freys as white-trash types but then again, I have experience with that because of some "colorful" family members . The show even pushed this really hard. Behaviors: Walder marrying every one under the sun when the aristocracy doesn't do this. Being lewd in public. Treating his kids even worse than the normal Westerosi standards. Terrible manners. Crude.

I also don't think it was only Frey related, but the Freys being is so overbearing in the books that I absolutely do think it's a factor. And Walder directly calls Robb out on this. To think otherwise I'd have to call it a writing fail because it creates a strong point only to undermine it later.

Bold: It's the game of thrones. That's what they all do. Tywin also plays both sides and shows up late to battle. He's not seen the same way. Not uncommon for houses to place a son on both sides of a war to ensure they don't lose their house if they throw all in with the wrong side.

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I take the contrast to how he behaved with Myrcella to mean he was a child then & becoming a man now. 

I can't agree with this interpretation. In the end he didn't behave like a man or a king. If he was a man (at 16!) he wouldn't have dishonored Jeyne in the first place especially if he knew he couldn't marry her and as a king, he failed his people by marrying Jeyne. It was grossly irresponsible and selfish on his part to his family and kingdom despite being the right thing to do by Jeyne.

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I may agree with this, at least I don't think there was any mind control involved but what do you think that little push is? 

See the thing for me is there just isn't any reason for Tywin to believe that Robb will sleep with a woman while betrothed no matter the state he is in. He is his fathers son. I take that to mean he has more honor than sense, just like Ned. Tywin wouldn't have known he would be injured, wouldn't have known he would be mourning over his brothers, etc 

Loosening of inhibitions. Think alcohol or maybe some "love position". I don't believe they have any really powerful love position because they'd be in a better position if they did. But maybe they have something that can ~enhance~ something already there.

Agree with the bold but for me this points to it not being pre-planned at all, but a spontaneous opportunity. Micro-managing plans by raven sounds implausible to say the least especially when dealing with so many variables requiring quick reactions.

 

 

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Robb4Ever said:

Please answer? >.>

I am tired of my posts being ignored, especially in topics I've started.

 

I'm confused by the question. By the posts, I think it's clear that we only have a few facts and a lot of speculation.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 hours ago, teej6 said:

The text is not clear as to when Tywin and Sybell made their plans/ arrangements or what these plans entailed. All we know from a Jaime chapter in AFFC is that Sybell (by her own admission) was working with Tywin to help bring down Robb

Yeah, I agree. It's not clear. 

I just operate under the assumption that they started plotting before hand for a couple reasons: I don't know what help Sybelle could have offered after the fact that would be worthy of the rewards promised her & I don't see how she could have communicated effectively with Tywin during the attack or directly after, so that only leaves before. Of course my assumptions have been wrong before

8 hours ago, teej6 said:

I’m not sure how long Robb spend at the Crag (someone else who’s good with ASOIAF timelines might be able to answer) but considering he was recovering from a festering wound, we can assume it was not an insignificant period of time

Yep, agree. I would think it would be a little while at the least. I'm not good with the timeline either but I would guess somewhere between 2 weeks & a month just based on my modern day knowledge of an infected wound but that's a pretty flimsy thing to base it on 

8 hours ago, teej6 said:

If so, this gave Sybell the time and opportunity to communicate with Tywin, perhaps initially to let him know they were under attack and after to assure him of her allegiance to the Lannisters. Sybell could have begun communicating with Tywin once she believed that the Crag would fall to Robb’s men

It's not out of the realm of possibility that she got a raven off while the attack was underway but after they took the castle I would think it would be pretty hard to get a raven out unnoticed & I would think the plotting would take more than one raven. Plus - & I totally may be missing something - but I just can't imagine what she would have offered Tywin at that point that wouldn't involve some sort of love potion. 

"Dear Tywin, we have the Young Wolf... Er well he has us but he is wounded. I will send my daughter to care for him in the hopes that he will sleep with her & then marry her betraying the Freys in return for said rewards, deal?" 

"Dear Sybelle, yeah, sure whatever you say. How about you contact me when you've accomplished something because that sounds like leaving an awful lot to chance."

I just can't see Tywin banking on this & then being so sure it would succeed that he starts to plot the RW ya know?

8 hours ago, teej6 said:

Jeyne took an enemy (someone who’s men had recently captured her father) into her own room and bed and made certain to put herself at Robb’s disposal.

Yeah, odd behavior right?

8 hours ago, teej6 said:

Tywin states that Jeyne is her mother’s daughter. By this, I’m assuming he meant that Jeyne knew how to attract and lure a man.

Exactly, and how did her mother lure men? Of course it isn't explicitly stated but it is heavily implied that the Spicer's dabble in witchery, potions, magic, whatever you want to call it. 

8 hours ago, teej6 said:

I’m still uncertain as to Jeyne’s part in all this. We know she truly loved Robb, but did she love him from the beginning and knew nothing about Sybell’s communications with Tywin or was she part of her mother’s plan initially?) 

Yeah I'm not sure. 

8 hours ago, teej6 said:

believe that once Sybell saw Jeyne was successful in making Robb fall for her, she could have communicated this to Tywin while still at the Crag

So the issues I see with this are that this assumes that Sybelle did have a plan for Jeyne to seduce Robb but did nothing to actively push it along, which doesn't make a lot of sense & also I think it would have been very hard for her to communicate with Tywin after the North had control of the castle. 

8 hours ago, teej6 said:

Again, we don’t have the specifics as to when and how Tywin and Sybell communicated — we know from the Jaime chapter that Sybell had made sure that Jeyne never had Robb’s child as Tywin “bid” her, and that Tywin had promised her marriages for her daughters with “Lord’s and heirs” and a bride from Casterly Rock for her son. For all we know, the plan to trap Robb could very well have been initiated by Sybell and she somehow managed to communicate this to Tywin before leaving the Crag

Yeah, Sybelle made sure Jeyne never had Robb's child by slipping her moon tea right? (I can't remember) setting another precedence for Sybelle "drugging" people without their knowledge. 

It's possible but not plausible IMO - her communicating with Tywin while the castle is under northern control. They would have went to great lengths to ensure no ravens left the castle & while it's not impossible for one to have snuck by I just don't think it's plausible. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

It's common for higher classes to look down upon people for not for being upstarts, but because they don't socially fit in, yet they'll say it's because they're upstarts. But they do accept upstarts who behave in a socially acceptable way. Upstart is only mentioned in connection with the Freys though there's a good number of houses which can be looked down upon as upstarts

What motivation do they have to say it's because they are upstarts if it isn't though? 

We have several examples of people showing disdain for the Freys sighting the reason as them being upstarts but no example, that I recall, of them being white trash among the aristocracy. 

You said upstart is only mentioned irt the Freys but then gave an example of the Tyrells being called such? 

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I'm struggling with you're not seeing the Freys as white-trash types but then again, I have experience with that because of some "colorful" family members 

Well, to be fair I wasn't necessarily saying I don't see them as "white trash" types (I've never really thought about it tbh) but more that I don't recall any examples of them behaving as such in aristocratic circles. I don't remember them being in an aristocratic circles to behave as such. 

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The show even pushed this really hard

That doesn't mean anything though. The abomination pushed many agendas that have absolutely nothing to do with the books. 

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Behaviors: Walder marrying every one under the sun when the aristocracy doesn't do this. Being lewd in public. Treating his kids even worse than the normal Westerosi standards. Terrible manners. Crude.

To be fair most don't live as long as Walder & outlive so many wives either. I'll look up his wives though, are you saying he is marrying outside of or below his station? If so, that could be for a number of reasons: after having so many wives he has ran out of possibilities, especially at his age. A young, lower born woman is much more apt to accept a marriage proposal from the Lord of an established house than another highborn woman would be & also his legacy is established, he has no lack of heirs, he can afford to marry for youth or looks rather than for alliances or wealth at this point. 

I don't recall him being in public? He is certainly lewd when speaking with Cat but he is in his own castle, not in public & it has been my experience with the elderly that the older they get the less they mince words. 

I don't think he treats his children particularly bad either. He speaks to them harshly, but nothing outside of words that I remember. 

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

also don't think it was only Frey related, but the Freys being is so overbearing in the books that I absolutely do think it's a factor. And Walder directly calls Robb out on this. To think otherwise I'd have to call it a writing fail because it creates a strong point only to undermine it later

Sure, I agree it's likely a factor. 

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Bold: It's the game of thrones. That's what they all do. Tywin also plays both sides and shows up late to battle. He's not seen the same way. Not uncommon for houses to place a son on both sides of a war to ensure they don't lose their house if they throw all in with the wrong side

Yeah but Tywin has done other things to establish his reputation. Walder has not that I recall. 

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

can't agree with this interpretation. In the end he didn't behave like a man or a king. If he was a man (at 16!) he wouldn't have dishonored Jeyne in the first place especially if he knew he couldn't marry her and as a king, he failed his people by marrying Jeyne. It was grossly irresponsible and selfish on his part to his family and kingdom despite being the right thing to do by Jeyne

That's my point exactly. George contrasts Robb in the beginning, swooning like a fool over Myrcella with Robb later readily accepting a less than appeasing betrothal (not only because it's with a Frey but for the other reasons I mentioned) to then have him behave again like a love sick puppy dog. It doesn't make sense unless something made him behave like a love sick puppy dog. 

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Loosening of inhibitions. Think alcohol or maybe some "love position".

Yeah that's exactly what I'm proposing, is a love potion. 

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

don't believe they have any really powerful love position because they'd be in a better position if they did. But maybe they have something that can ~enhance~ something already there.

I don't know what even the most powerful love potion could do for someone other than get someone to fall in love with you that otherwise wouldn't - like someone above your station, which is what @John Suburbs has nicely laid out the precedence for irt the Spicers.

At any rate I'm not pretending to know or even presume how powerful or not the love potion may have been (although she presumably would know her work & be able to make one as effective as it can be made) only that there are clues & groundwork laid for one being used. 

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Agree with the bold but for me this points to it not being pre-planned at all, but a spontaneous opportunity. Micro-managing plans by raven sounds implausible to say the least especially when dealing with so many variables requiring quick reactions

It certainly may not have been & that can fit the narrative but then it brings my mind back to, what did Sybelle do to help Tywin that is worthy of the rewards she was promised? 

It would likely do her no good to come to Tywin after the fact & say hey, I deserve some reward because it was me who helped Robb & Jeyne together, effectively dessimating Robb's cause. If I were Tywin I would think so? Firstly how would she prove it & secondly it was already done, why would he need to promise a reward for something that had already happened? He didn't need her to do anymore. 

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, teej6 said:

I’m on my phone and my muti-quote function is giving me trouble so I snipped your post. Just addressing part of it.

In regards to the bolded, when/ where did I state or imply that Tywin believes since Robb is his father’s son that he will “fall into another woman’s hands”? What I stated was that Tywin, knowing Robb to be his father’s son, would do the honorable thing if he happened to deflower Jeyne (which is what Tywin and Sybell where hoping and planning for). 

And why do you assume that an honorable man would not “break his sworn word to another woman unless he is driven to it by overwhelming, uncontrollable passion”. Yes, honorable men in the series are shown to take a woman’s honor and chastity very seriously. But in this case, Robb didn’t even know who is betrothed was. He hasn’t seen her, doesn’t know who she is... kind of hard to be loyal to an unknown. He begrudgingly accepted a crummy old man’s terms. To add to that, he was wounded and perhaps emotionally unstable (after hearing of the deaths of his brothers) and lonely when he succumbed to his feelings for Jeyne — no need for “overwhelming uncontrollable passion” here. He could just have been a lonely teenage in a lot of pain and emotional stress. And if we add milk of the poppy or some other pain killer to the mix, then we have a lonely, sad teenager who is in pain and not thinking clearly. No need for any “uncontrollable passion” or love potion here IMO.

So now you argue that Tywin may not have known about the love potion plot. This goes against your earlier argument/ statement: “So Tywin and Sybelle are plotting to bring down the King in the North just on the vague hope that Robb will fall for Jeyne, whom everybody agrees is moderately pretty but not someone to give up a crown for?“

OK, but then wouldn't the "honorable thing" be for Robb to keep his vow to the Freys no matter how attracted he is to Jeyne? If Robb is like his father, and his father slept with a woman who was not his wife (quite possibly before he was married as well) then shouldn't Tywin expect that Robb, being his father's son, would be OK with doing the same?

Robb was honor-bound to keep his vow to Walder Frey. It doesn't matter that he hasn't met his bride; breaking his vow to the Lord of the Crossing is a dishonorable thing to do, completely opposite of what Tywin should expect from Robb, son of the honorable Ned Stark.

Tywin not knowing or not caring how Sybelle orchestrated the marriage in no way eliminates the possibility that she used a love potion. Tywin just remains willfully ignorant of that fact. And as I said, it is only one of two possibilities here. The more likely scenario is that he knows exactly how she did it because either she told him directly or he simply knows who she is and who she is descended from, and now he is refusing to share this bit of information to the two people in the room who have no need to know.

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Lollygag said:

No. It's all in which flaw(s), how the character rationalizes, which choices they make along the way and external forces. Did you predict Robb's marriage and the RW? I sure didn't.

I agree with the second. That's why he only needed a little push to break, not mind control. Add to that he was injured and very upset over a very long list of things. And a teenage boy...

I kind of had a feeling that Robb was not long for the world. Did you predict that Ned was going to die? Lysa? Cat? How can anyone predict when anyone is going to die, and what does that have to do with the manner of the death?

What you are doing is arbitrarily assigning characterization and "agency" (whatever that means) to Robb and then using that as proof that he had complete control over his decision-making process regarding Jeyne because that is how you want to define him. The better way, of course, is to look at facts, and the facts here place a love potion right in the middle of Robb's very unusual and highly detrimental decision for himself, just like it did for Gawen Westerling, the Spicer and practically any other man who gets too close to Maggy or her descendants. Within the novel, the characters are real people with real lives making decision based on real things that are happening in real time. They are not living up to some imaginary reader's agency or characterization, they are not living story arcs for the satisfaction of plot or theme. This is what separates Martin for virtually all other writers.

Sure, it could all just be a combination of pain-killers and grief and teenage hormones and all the rest, and yet we have a love potion right in the midst of all this. Only a fool would ignore that simply because it changes a character from what they want him to be to what he really is.

[John Suburbs]

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Loosening of inhibitions. Think alcohol or maybe some "love position". I don't believe they have any really powerful love position because they'd be in a better position if they did. But maybe they have something that can ~enhance~ something already there.

They are in a better position, a dramatically better position. Maggy started out as some witch/priestess in Essos who wound up a ragged old hag on the streets of Lannisport, and Jeyne is Queen in the North. I don't see how they could be in any better position, and there are no examples, zero, of any other house rising so far so fast. And each and every step up was the result of a man awarding them titles and station for no apparent reason or against their own best interests.

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I agree. It's not clear. 

I just operate under the assumption that they started plotting before hand for a couple reasons: I don't know what help Sybelle could have offered after the fact that would be worthy of the rewards promised her & I don't see how she could have communicated effectively with Tywin during the attack or directly after, so that only leaves before. Of course my assumptions have been wrong before

For Sybell to have started communicating with Tywin before Robb attacked the Crag and made a plan to have Robb fall in love with Jeyne and marry her by means of a love potion, Sybell would have to also be a fortune teller. She would have had to know that Robb would personally storm the castle (and not send one of his commanders), would have to know that he would be wounded, would have to know that his wound with fester (unless her men used poisoned shafts), would have to know that Robb would be okay with having his enemy’s daughter nurse him, and so on. And it’s not impossible for the castle’s Maester to still be loyal to Sybell and Rolph. In the sample Theon chapter, the Dreadfort maester continued to serve the Boltons while he was traveling with Stannis. Sybell tells Jaime that she did as Tywin bid and made sure Jeyne did not get pregnant by Robb. In order for her to make this promise to Tywin before the Crag fell, again she would have to be a fortune teller to know how events would play out love potion or not. The simpler explanation is that she found a way to keep communicating with Tywin even after the Crag was captured by Robb’s men.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

"Dear Tywin, we have the Young Wolf... Er well he has us but he is wounded. I will send my daughter to care for him in the hopes that he will sleep with her & then marry her betraying the Freys in return for said rewards, deal?" 

"Dear Sybelle, yeah, sure whatever you say. How about you contact me when you've accomplished something because that sounds like leaving an awful lot to chance."

I just can't see Tywin banking on this & then being so sure it would succeed that he starts to plot the RW ya know?

The simple explanation could be that before the castle fell, Sybell send a raven/ messenger assuring Tywin of her and her family’s allegiance and promising to do everything to be loyal to Tywin’s cause, perhaps even using her daughter to try and seduce Robb. Now Tywin need not have been certain of the result but knowing that there could have been an outcome that would benefit him would suffice. Tywin may have had several eggs in the basket and hoped some of them may hatch. And how do you think the love potion theory worked? Do you think that well in advance of Robb storming the Crag, Tywin and Sybell made plans to seduce Robb with a love potion? Again, this is also Tywin banking on several unknowns. As I said above, a lot of things had to fall in place for Sybell/ Jeyne to even have access to Robb. 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Exactly, and how did her mother lure men? Of course it isn't explicitly stated but it is heavily implied that the Spicer's dabble in witchery, potions, magic, whatever you want to call it. 

Yeah I'm not sure. 

So the issues I see with this are that this assumes that Sybelle did have a plan for Jeyne to seduce Robb but did nothing to actively push it along, which doesn't make a lot of sense & also I think it would have been very hard for her to communicate with Tywin after the North had control of the castle. 

Yeah, Sybelle made sure Jeyne never had Robb's child by slipping her moon tea right? (I can't remember) setting another precedence for Sybelle "drugging" people without their knowledge. 

It's possible but not plausible IMO - her communicating with Tywin while the castle is under northern control. They would have went to great lengths to ensure no ravens left the castle & while it's not impossible for one to have snuck by I just don't think it's plausible. 

Actually we know of only one Spicer woman who sold love potions and that was Maggy the Frog. There is no implication that any Spicer woman used any potion to get a husband. Sybell’s grandfather (Maggy the Frog’s husband) was a lowborn trader, almost as low born as Davos according to Kevan. Not much of “above your station” here. We don’t know Maggy the Frog’s background, just that she was a priestess from the East. No mention is made of Sybell’s parents, their rank or status. So in effect the only Spicer to marry above their station was Sybell. And we know how that happened: “The Westerlings were old blood, but they had more pride than power. It would not surprise him to learn that Lady Sybell had brought more wealth to the marriage than her highborn husband. The Westerling mines had failed years ago, their best lands had been sold off or lost, and the Crag was more ruin than stronghold”.  So there’s a simpler explanation than love potion for Sybell’s marriage — money. 

I’m not stating that Sybell didn’t actively push her daughter to seduce Robb. I’m just saying mother and daughter most likely didn’t need the help of love potions to achieve this end.

[teej6]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

OK, but then wouldn't the "honorable thing" be for Robb to keep his vow to the Freys no matter how attracted he is to Jeyne? If Robb is like his father, and his father slept with a woman who was not his wife (quite possibly before he was married as well) then shouldn't Tywin expect that Robb, being his father's son, would be OK with doing the same?

Robb was honor-bound to keep his vow to Walder Frey. It doesn't matter that he hasn't met his bride; breaking his vow to the Lord of the Crossing is a dishonorable thing to do, completely opposite of what Tywin should expect from Robb, son of the honorable Ned Stark.

All we know is Tywin states that he knew Robb was his father’s son and this to him made the outcome of Robb marrying Jeyne possible. This, to me, implies that Tywin knew that Robb was a man of honor. We don’t know what Tywin believes of Ned’s past indiscretions regarding his bastard son, or whether he believed that Ned was “OK” with sleeping with a woman and abandoning her. In my reading of the line, Tywin knew if Robb dishonored a woman, he would do right by her and marry her. He also knew the kid was a teenager. These are Tywin’s words regarding Robb: 

Quote

“He is a boy of sixteen,” said Lord Tywin. “At that age, sense weighs for little, against lust and love and honor.”

The above to me implies that Tywin was betting that an impressionable and honorable teenage would fall in love, lose himself, and then marry the girl. 

Robb may have been honor bound to keep his promise to the Freys, but I think it makes his decision to honor Jeyne easier if he doesn’t know who his betrothed is. Robb is caught between two dishonorable options, abandoning a girl who he deflowered or going back on his word. He chose the first option and the fact that he didn’t know his Frey fiancé made it easier for him. From Tywin’s perspective, he was betting on Robb going with the first option.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Tywin not knowing or not caring how Sybelle orchestrated the marriage in no way eliminates the possibility that she used a love potion. Tywin just remains willfully ignorant of that fact. And as I said, it is only one of two possibilities here. The more likely scenario is that he knows exactly how she did it because either she told him directly or he simply knows who she is and who she is descended from, and now he is refusing to share this bit of information to the two people in the room who have no need to know.

On the above, I was just pointing to the fact that in you stating that Tywin didn’t know about the love potion plot, you were contradicting yourself from an earlier post you made.