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Was Robb drugged?


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53 minutes ago, teej6 said:

All we know is Tywin states that he knew Robb was his father’s son and this to him made the outcome of Robb marrying Jeyne possible. This, to me, implies that Tywin knew that Robb was a man of honor. We don’t know what Tywin believes of Ned’s past indiscretions regarding his bastard son, or whether he believed that Ned was “OK” with sleeping with a woman and abandoning her. In my reading of the line, Tywin knew if Robb dishonored a woman, he would do right by her and marry her. He also knew the kid was a teenager. These are Tywin’s words regarding Robb: 

The above to me implies that Tywin was betting that an impressionable and honorable teenage would fall in love, lose himself, and then marry the girl. 

Robb may have been honor bound to keep his promise to the Freys, but I think it makes his decision to honor Jeyne easier if he doesn’t know who his betrothed is. Robb is caught between two dishonorable options, abandoning a girl who he deflowered or going back on his word. He chose the first option and the fact that he didn’t know his Frey fiancé made it easier for him. From Tywin’s perspective, he was betting on Robb going with the first option.

On the above, I was just pointing to the fact that in you stating that Tywin didn’t know about the love potion plot, you were contradicting yourself from an earlier post you made. 

Yes, all of this. And there is absolutely no need for an explanation that is more convoluted, has already been used in the same storyline and at the same time, and for which there are no actual clues other than, “it's not impossible”. Robb is hurting, physically and emotionally, receives milk of the poppy, goes to sleep and wakes up w/ Jeyne lying next to him and saying, “last night was wonderful!”. This is just an example, I am not saying that’s exactly how it happened. 

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3 hours ago, teej6 said:

All we know is Tywin states that he knew Robb was his father’s son and this to him made the outcome of Robb marrying Jeyne possible. This, to me, implies that Tywin knew that Robb was a man of honor. We don’t know what Tywin believes of Ned’s past indiscretions regarding his bastard son, or whether he believed that Ned was “OK” with sleeping with a woman and abandoning her. In my reading of the line, Tywin knew if Robb dishonored a woman, he would do right by her and marry her. He also knew the kid was a teenager. These are Tywin’s words regarding Robb: 

The above to me implies that Tywin was betting that an impressionable and honorable teenage would fall in love, lose himself, and then marry the girl. 

Robb may have been honor bound to keep his promise to the Freys, but I think it makes his decision to honor Jeyne easier if he doesn’t know who his betrothed is. Robb is caught between two dishonorable options, abandoning a girl who he deflowered or going back on his word. He chose the first option and the fact that he didn’t know his Frey fiancé made it easier for him. From Tywin’s perspective, he was betting on Robb going with the first option.

On the above, I was just pointing to the fact that in you stating that Tywin didn’t know about the love potion plot, you were contradicting yourself from an earlier post you made. 

Again, these quotes could be interpreted this way if Tywin is unaware that a love potion but they could also be interpreted as him either knowing one was used or merely suspecting it. There mere fact that he is contradicting himself is a big clue that he is bsing: He knows Robb is a man of honor, but he is then counting on him to dishonor himself by breaking his word but then do the honorable thing by marrying Jeyne. Well, which is it? Is he honorable or not? How could Tywin possibly know, having never even met the boy, when Robb will choose to be honorable or not.  As you say, he is betting that this will happen. Considering what's at stake here, it makes more sense that Tywin is not betting at all -- or if he is, he is stacking the deck.

I was offering two possible scenarios for Tywin, neither of which precludes the use of a love potion on Robb.

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, all of this. And there is absolutely no need for an explanation that is more convoluted, has already been used in the same storyline and at the same time, and for which there are no actual clues other than, “it's not impossible”. Robb is hurting, physically and emotionally, receives milk of the poppy, goes to sleep and wakes up w/ Jeyne lying next to him and saying, “last night was wonderful!”. This is just an example, I am not saying that’s exactly how it happened. 

When has a love potion been used at the same time in the same story line? And how can you possibly argue that there are no actual clues? I've given you nothing but clues; solid, factual clues, not the visionary, imaginary ones that are used to support RLJ.

And the love potion is not more convoluted. It is simple and straightforward. What's convoluted is trying to second-guess the inner nature of a character whom we've only observed from the outside.

 

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@Lyanna<3Rhaegar

My post is so hacked up that I can't respond anymore without repeating myself constantly.

Upstart =/= upjump though they're similar. Upstart is a bigger thing. For example a new business is an upstart. Upjump is used more often and it's a lesser thing. https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=upjump

People in general often aren't accurate as to why they don't like something or someone and GRRM has his characters do this as well. It's all over this forum. People just don't like a character, but they'll pretzel themselves trying to rationalize it to absurdity. Jon haters seems to be the worst ones at this lately. I hate bringing up this example but it's staring us in the face. Trump was born with money in borough in NY. But he's obnoxious, desperate for crude attention, has inexplicably weird hair and tops it off with orange clown makeup. That he's never been accepted with the NY elite drives him nuts. Bloomberg on the other hand wasn't born rich, but he acts the part so is accepted by the NY elite. So when they knock Trump for being from a borough but give Bloomberg a pass, then it's about personality and conduct though they're calling it something different.

The high-born in Westeros do this too. No one has a problem with the Tyrell's status (had Highgarden for half the time that the Freys had the Twins) except for Cersei. AFFC Cersei I: It did not please her. The Tyrells were only stewards that the dragon-kings had upjumped far above their station. Except Cersei doesn't like Tyrells in general and throws any insult available at them. We see from the people that she does elevate that her issue is loyalty, not status though she rationalizes it as something else. A lot of instances of any -ism tend to fall in this category. When we like someone, any -ism is overlooked. But when we don't like them, -ism is an easy attack. To be truly that status-conscious gets in the way of the high-born rewarding those who are loyal and getting rid of those who aren't.

With the show, that's an ad hominem attack and you cut out my main point. I've never heard any of the fandom have a problem with the portrayal of the Freys as white trash. It was pulled from the books.

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

To be fair most don't live as long as Walder & outlive so many wives either. I'll look up his wives though, are you saying he is marrying outside of or below his station? If so, that could be for a number of reasons: after having so many wives he has ran out of possibilities, especially at his age. A young, lower born woman is much more apt to accept a marriage proposal from the Lord of an established house than another highborn woman would be & also his legacy is established, he has no lack of heirs, he can afford to marry for youth or looks rather than for alliances or wealth at this point. 

I don't recall him being in public? He is certainly lewd when speaking with Cat but he is in his own castle, not in public & it has been my experience with the elderly that the older they get the less they mince words. 

I don't think he treats his children particularly bad either. He speaks to them harshly, but nothing outside of words that I remember.  

Living as long as Walder doesn't matter. To go through that many spouses is tasteless and it's portrayed as such. Even in their own home, the aristocracy are expected to have appropriate manners with guests. The same goes for real life. Tywin, Ned, etc don't mince words. Walder is just obnoxious and crude. I'm utterly dumbfounded by the bold. He treats them as disposable trying to dump them off on anyone who'll come along and doesn't even remember their names when it's not Walder or Walda. I can't imagine the hate threads for Ned if he did such a thing. Rightly so if that were the case.

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah but Tywin has done other things to establish his reputation. Walder has not that I recall. 

You're ignoring my point. It's the game of thrones. It's the norm to act deviously. Unfortunately. The Freys aren't looked down upon for this reason. It's another example of people just not liking someone and then trying to reverse-engineer a reason for it because soooooo many others in this world get a pass for exactly the same thing.

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It certainly may not have been & that can fit the narrative but then it brings my mind back to, what did Sybelle do to help Tywin that is worthy of the rewards she was promised? 

It would likely do her no good to come to Tywin after the fact & say hey, I deserve some reward because it was me who helped Robb & Jeyne together, effectively dessimating Robb's cause. If I were Tywin I would think so? Firstly how would she prove it & secondly it was already done, why would he need to promise a reward for something that had already happened? He didn't need her to do anymore. 

I can't find the quote offhand, but Tywin went off on Joff for being an ass to too many of his subjects. When they're loyal, treat them well. When they're not, go off on them hard. When they disobey you but repent, forgive them. Treating everyone horribly and offing everyone for any slight is stupid, hence why Joff favored that tactic. In the end, that just makes enemies of everyone.

I don't know but if it was just about offing Robb, that could have been done before. Whatever was going on was more complex but I can't say what that was. There's more to meet the eye on the Spicer-Westerlings and I'm guessing that there are so many holes because future plots may get spoiled.

I don't care for discussions where there's so much post hacking. Things get off-topic too easily and I don't like those sorts of rabbit holes. If you're fine this format, ok, but I'll be jumping off the ride from here on out if that's the case.

 

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13 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, these quotes could be interpreted this way if Tywin is unaware that a love potion but they could also be interpreted as him either knowing one was used or merely suspecting it. There mere fact that he is contradicting himself is a big clue that he is bsing: He knows Robb is a man of honor, but he is then counting on him to dishonor himself by breaking his word but then do the honorable thing by marrying Jeyne. Well, which is it? Is he honorable or not? How could Tywin possibly know, having never even met the boy, when Robb will choose to be honorable or not.  As you say, he is betting that this will happen. Considering what's at stake here, it makes more sense that Tywin is not betting at all -- or if he is, he is stacking the deck.

I was offering two possible scenarios for Tywin, neither of which precludes the use of a love potion on Robb.

The thing is, IRT Tywin knowing or not about a hypothetical love potion doesn’t matter either way. Because love potions and such are not failproof; not by a long shot. So, regardless of what was the plan and whose, Tywin knowing or not doesn’t really change anything. The situation is totally beyond his control. Sybell coming up w/ a plan, whatever said plan might be, can only help Tywin, and as I said, it’s completely beyond his control. Worst case scenario for Tywin is, it doesn’t work. Best case scenario, Red Wedding. It’s a win-win for Tywin. 

8 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

When has a love potion been used at the same time in the same story line? And how can you possibly argue that there are no actual clues? I've given you nothing but clues; solid, factual clues, not the visionary, imaginary ones that are used to support RLJ.

Not a love potion, but Sybell dosing someone to achieve her goals. So moon tea for Jeyne, and love potion to both Jeyne and Robb or just Robb. It’s someone spiking someone’s drink or food or whatever to get the end result they want. And no, I don’t see anything you claim are clues as such, let alone “solid, factual clues”. For instance, there haven’t been 4 Spicer women marrying well above their station, etc. I’m not going to repeat everything again. And I get it, you don’t support R+L=J, and that’s fine. But to say we have more clues to this love potion idea than we do for Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon’s parents is just silly IMO.

8 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And the love potion is not more convoluted. It is simple and straightforward. What's convoluted is trying to second-guess the inner nature of a character whom we've only observed from the outside.

 

It is more convoluted, it’s repetitive, and it’s wholly unnecessary. Again, IMO. 

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5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I kind of had a feeling that Robb was not long for the world. Did you predict that Ned was going to die? Lysa? Cat? How can anyone predict when anyone is going to die, and what does that have to do with the manner of the death?

What you are doing is arbitrarily assigning characterization and "agency" (whatever that means) to Robb and then using that as proof that he had complete control over his decision-making process regarding Jeyne because that is how you want to define him. The better way, of course, is to look at facts, and the facts here place a love potion right in the middle of Robb's very unusual and highly detrimental decision for himself, just like it did for Gawen Westerling, the Spicer and practically any other man who gets too close to Maggy or her descendants. Within the novel, the characters are real people with real lives making decision based on real things that are happening in real time. They are not living up to some imaginary reader's agency or characterization, they are not living story arcs for the satisfaction of plot or theme. This is what separates Martin for virtually all other writers.

Sure, it could all just be a combination of pain-killers and grief and teenage hormones and all the rest, and yet we have a love potion right in the midst of all this. Only a fool would ignore that simply because it changes a character from what they want him to be to what he really is.

This isn't what I said at all.

https://mythicscribes.com/character-development/character-agency/

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

They are in a better position, a dramatically better position. Maggy started out as some witch/priestess in Essos who wound up a ragged old hag on the streets of Lannisport, and Jeyne is Queen in the North. I don't see how they could be in any better position, and there are no examples, zero, of any other house rising so far so fast. And each and every step up was the result of a man awarding them titles and station for no apparent reason or against their own best interests.

If I had a truly powerful love potion or anything that could be considered mind control, I would aim much higher than a Westerling.

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3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

If I had a truly powerful love potion or anything that could be considered mind control, I would aim much higher than a Westerling.

True.

You'd also probably do something much easier, like convince Robb to sue for peace. Tywin gets what he wants and the Westerlings get to keep Robb.

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On 2/9/2020 at 6:33 AM, Robb4Ever said:

I was inspired to make this by a rather interesting discussion that took place in another thread. Let's continue that here.

He was not on antidepressants.  He might have taken pain killers or what passes for pain killers.  Love potion #9, no way.  Robb was just a dishonorable horny boy who chose the girl he wants even though he took an oath to marry a Frey. 

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5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar

My post is so hacked up that I can't respond anymore without repeating myself constantly.

Upstart =/= upjump though they're similar. Upstart is a bigger thing. For example a new business is an upstart. Upjump is used more often and it's a lesser thing. https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=upjump

People in general often aren't accurate as to why they don't like something or someone and GRRM has his characters do this as well. It's all over this forum. People just don't like a character, but they'll pretzel themselves trying to rationalize it to absurdity. Jon haters seems to be the worst ones at this lately. I hate bringing up this example but it's staring us in the face. Trump was born with money in borough in NY. But he's obnoxious, desperate for crude attention, has inexplicably weird hair and tops it off with orange clown makeup. That he's never been accepted with the NY elite drives him nuts. Bloomberg on the other hand wasn't born rich, but he acts the part so is accepted by the NY elite. So when they knock Trump for being from a borough but give Bloomberg a pass, then it's about personality and conduct though they're calling it something different.

The high-born in Westeros do this too. No one has a problem with the Tyrell's status (had Highgarden for half the time that the Freys had the Twins) except for Cersei. AFFC Cersei I: It did not please her. The Tyrells were only stewards that the dragon-kings had upjumped far above their station. Except Cersei doesn't like Tyrells in general and throws any insult available at them. We see from the people that she does elevate that her issue is loyalty, not status though she rationalizes it as something else. A lot of instances of any -ism tend to fall in this category. When we like someone, any -ism is overlooked. But when we don't like them, -ism is an easy attack. To be truly that status-conscious gets in the way of the high-born rewarding those who are loyal and getting rid of those who aren't.

With the show, that's an ad hominem attack and you cut out my main point. I've never heard any of the fandom have a problem with the portrayal of the Freys as white trash. It was pulled from the books.

Living as long as Walder doesn't matter. To go through that many spouses is tasteless and it's portrayed as such. Even in their own home, the aristocracy are expected to have appropriate manners with guests. The same goes for real life. Tywin, Ned, etc don't mince words. Walder is just obnoxious and crude. I'm utterly dumbfounded by the bold. He treats them as disposable trying to dump them off on anyone who'll come along and doesn't even remember their names when it's not Walder or Walda. I can't imagine the hate threads for Ned if he did such a thing. Rightly so if that were the case.

You're ignoring my point. It's the game of thrones. It's the norm to act deviously. Unfortunately. The Freys aren't looked down upon for this reason. It's another example of people just not liking someone and then trying to reverse-engineer a reason for it because soooooo many others in this world get a pass for exactly the same thing.

I can't find the quote offhand, but Tywin went off on Joff for being an ass to too many of his subjects. When they're loyal, treat them well. When they're not, go off on them hard. When they disobey you but repent, forgive them. Treating everyone horribly and offing everyone for any slight is stupid, hence why Joff favored that tactic. In the end, that just makes enemies of everyone.

I don't know but if it was just about offing Robb, that could have been done before. Whatever was going on was more complex but I can't say what that was. There's more to meet the eye on the Spicer-Westerlings and I'm guessing that there are so many holes because future plots may get spoiled.

I don't care for discussions where there's so much post hacking. Things get off-topic too easily and I don't like those sorts of rabbit holes. If you're fine this format, ok, but I'll be jumping off the ride from here on out if that's the case.

 

Sorry, that's how most people that I see quote, a section at a time. I was just trying to make sure I responded to everything. 

Tbh I don't have much of an opinion on Walder being an upjump vs an upstart or his level of white trashy-ness or lack there of, I was just asking questions for clarification purposes & felt like I was getting conflicting information from you about it. I'm not a Walder fan & it's not the hill I want to die on. 

An ad-hominem attack is an attack on you personally rather than your view or position so I'm not really sure how saying the show doesn't matter is an ad-hominem attack. The show doesn't matter irt the novels, that's been established repeatedly. There is a reason there is not to be any show discussion in the book forum. 

I haven't even rebutted your claim that the Freys are white trash but I've never seen them called such. I was still trying to figure out why exactly you were calling them that, like what specific things or behaviors they have expressed that lead you to this conclusion. Walder Frey is a rude, disloyal, old man but idk if that makes him & the rest of his kin white trash. To each their own though. 

Walder is trying to make matches for all of his dependents. That doesn't equate dumping them off on whoever like they are disposable, that's what he is supposed to do. 

As for not remembering their names, yeah he is a dick & is not nice to them verbally, I said that. He doesn't mistreat them in anyway that we are aware of. 

Not everyone in the series behaves deviously. Walder is talked about for not arriving to the battle, waiting to pick the winning side. He is specifically called the 'Late' Walder Frey. While I'm sure there are other reasons he is looked upon with disdain all this reverse-enginnering, not saying why you really don't like them stuff seems like a convoluted mess & quite unnecessary to me. 

I'm not ignoring your point, you said Walder isn't really looked poorly upon for waiting until the last minute to pick a side & you evidenced that by saying Tywin did the same thing & isn't viewed as such. I said that's because Tywin has established his reputation in other ways, while Walder has not. 

 

Tbh I'm still a little confused about your stance. You equate love potion to mind control (which it is not) but then say 

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Whatever was going on was more complex but I can't say what that was. There's more to meet the eye on the Spicer-Westerlings and I'm guessing that there are so many holes because future plots may get spoiled

Which I agree with. We don't know what it was, that's why some are speculating a love potion. I'm not sold that is what happened, just speculating, but IMO a love potion would fit being "more than meets the eye" & something more complex going on. Not a mind control drug, a love potion. Or a 'lust' potion or any such potion that may give Robb the feeling that he cares for, loves, or has to sleep with Jeyne. 

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10 hours ago, teej6 said:

For Sybell to have started communicating with Tywin before Robb attacked the Crag and made a plan to have Robb fall in love with Jeyne and marry her by means of a love potion, Sybell would have to also be a fortune teller. She would have had to know that Robb would personally storm the castle (and not send one of his commanders), would have to know that he would be wounded, would have to know that his wound with fester (unless her men used poisoned shafts), would have to know that Robb would be okay with having his enemy’s daughter nurse him, and so on

Not really. All of that wouldn't be necessary. The only thing she would need to know is that Robb was attacking the castle personally. Him being wounded, the wound festering or allowing the enemies daughter to nurse him wouldn't be necessary, although allowing her to nurse him would be taken care of easy enough with a potion.

10 hours ago, teej6 said:

In order for her to make this promise to Tywin before the Crag fell, again she would have to be a fortune teller to know how events would play out love potion or not. The simpler explanation is that she found a way to keep communicating with Tywin even after the Crag was captured by Robb’s men

Or she sent a letter to Tywin as the Crag fell & carried out the ploy after. All that would be necessary would be to slip him the potion. He would allow her to tend to him if he was having romantic feelings towards her if he did get a wound & would have romantic feelings toward her even if he didn't. 

10 hours ago, teej6 said:

The simple explanation could be that before the castle fell, Sybell send a raven/ messenger assuring Tywin of her and her family’s allegiance and promising to do everything to be loyal to Tywin’s cause, perhaps even using her daughter to try and seduce Robb. Now Tywin need not have been certain of the result but knowing that there could have been an outcome that would benefit him would suffice. Tywin may have had several eggs in the basket and hoped some of them may hatch

Yeah I see what you are saying. That would work just as well with a potion being involved though. Sybell sends out her letter swearing her allegiance & possibly even mentioning her daughter seducing Robb, & then gives Robb the potion. 

10 hours ago, teej6 said:

And how do you think the love potion theory worked? Do you think that well in advance of Robb storming the Crag, Tywin and Sybell made plans to seduce Robb with a love potion? Again, this is also Tywin banking on several unknowns. As I said above, a lot of things had to fall in place for Sybell/ Jeyne to even have access to Robb

No, I don't think that would be plausible either. Sybell would have had to know Robb was attacking the castle. This could have been knowledge found out before the attack but I don't think that's necessary. 

I'm not married to any particular theory so I don't really have a solid idea in my mind about how it would all play out, just batting around ideas. 

10 hours ago, teej6 said:

Actually we know of only one Spicer woman who sold love potions and that was Maggy the Frog. There is no implication that any Spicer woman used any potion to get a husband. Sybell’s grandfather (Maggy the Frog’s husband) was a lowborn trader, almost as low born as Davos according to Kevan. Not much of “above your stationhere

I will have to go back & look at John Suburbs post but he presented 3 women I think that were in suspicious circumstances irt their marriages. Has that been refuted? 

10 hours ago, teej6 said:

So there’s a simpler explanation than love potion for Sybell’s marriage — money.

Yeah, it could be. Like I said, I'm not sold, I'm just looking for something that can effectively debunk the theory before I say it couldn't have happened & I haven't seen any such thing yet. 

I think there are clues & groundwork laid for this to be possible & nothing that I've seen directly contradicts it so as I stand I think, it could be what is going on. 

10 hours ago, teej6 said:

I’m not stating that Sybell didn’t actively push her daughter to seduce Robb. I’m just saying mother and daughter most likely didn’t need the help of love potions to achieve this end

No, it could have all been sheer luck. That's not impossible. I do think Robb behaved out of character when he slept with Jeyne though. - not an impossible thing either, he was under a lot of strain. 

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50 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I will have to go back & look at John Suburbs post but he presented 3 women I think that were in suspicious circumstances irt their marriages.

Sybell’s father is the founder of House Spicer. He is the son of Maggy the Frog. What we know of Maggy the Frog is that she was a priestess from the East who married a spice trader who Kevan refers to as a lowborn. So in Maggy’s case, I don’t see how this can be seen/described as marrying above her station. We know nothing about Sybell’s father (who was Maggy’s son) and her mother. As to Sybell herself, Gawen Westerling was an impoverished Lord and by Tyrion’s thoughts Sybell had brought more wealth to the marriage. So money is a far simpler and easier explanation than a love potion. The third is Jeyne, which is what we are discussing. To my knowledge, there are no other Spicer marriages described in the books. As @Lollygag stated above, if Sybell had this magic love potion, why did she settle for an impoverished Westerling? Why not aim higher?

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7 hours ago, teej6 said:

Sybell’s father is the founder of House Spicer. He is the son of Maggy the Frog. What we know of Maggy the Frog is that she was a priestess from the East who married a spice trader who Kevan refers to as a lowborn. So in Maggy’s case, I don’t see how this can be seen/described as marrying above her station. We know nothing about Sybell’s father (who was Maggy’s son) and her mother. As to Sybell herself, Gawen Westerling was an impoverished Lord and by Tyrion’s thoughts Sybell had brought more wealth to the marriage. So money is a far simpler and easier explanation than a love potion. The third is Jeyne, which is what we are discussing. To my knowledge, there are no other Spicer marriages described in the books. As @Lollygag stated above, if Sybell had this magic love potion, why did she settle for an impoverished Westerling? Why not aim higher?

I see. So, do you think Jeyne being related to Maggy the Frog has any significance ? 

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I see. So, do you think Jeyne being related to Maggy the Frog has any significance ? 

I know you didn’t ask me, but I’ll tell you what I think regardless. :D

Yes, it is significant that Sybell is related to Maggy, b/c instead of having to go looking for a wood’s witch for the moon tea, she knows how to prepare it herself. IMO.

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I know you didn’t ask me, but I’ll tell you what I think regardless. :D

Yes, it is significant that Sybell is related to Maggy, b/c instead of having to go looking for a wood’s witch for the moon tea, she knows how to prepare it herself. IMO.

:) I see. I guess I didn't realize people typically needed a woodswitch for moontea. I thought the maesters made it

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21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

:) I see. I guess I didn't realize people typically needed a woodswitch for moontea. I thought the maesters made it

Yes, maesters make it as well. But here I think it’s Sybell making it. She has the knowledge, but also I don’t think she’d want to go to their maester for something like this. If they have one, I don’t think we’ve heard anything about there being one at the Crag, but I could be wrong. 

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19 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The thing is, IRT Tywin knowing or not about a hypothetical love potion doesn’t matter either way. Because love potions and such are not failproof; not by a long shot. So, regardless of what was the plan and whose, Tywin knowing or not doesn’t really change anything. The situation is totally beyond his control. Sybell coming up w/ a plan, whatever said plan might be, can only help Tywin, and as I said, it’s completely beyond his control. Worst case scenario for Tywin is, it doesn’t work. Best case scenario, Red Wedding. It’s a win-win for Tywin. 

Not a love potion, but Sybell dosing someone to achieve her goals. So moon tea for Jeyne, and love potion to both Jeyne and Robb or just Robb. It’s someone spiking someone’s drink or food or whatever to get the end result they want. And no, I don’t see anything you claim are clues as such, let alone “solid, factual clues”. For instance, there haven’t been 4 Spicer women marrying well above their station, etc. I’m not going to repeat everything again. And I get it, you don’t support R+L=J, and that’s fine. But to say we have more clues to this love potion idea than we do for Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon’s parents is just silly IMO.

It is more convoluted, it’s repetitive, and it’s wholly unnecessary. Again, IMO. 

Maggy the Frog is no fraud. Her fortune-telling is spot on, so you can bet her love potions are as well. If they didn't work, people wouldn't buy them. If Sybelle is certain that she can get Robb to marry Jeyne, don't you think that would be much better than basing this whole plan just on the mere hope that they will?

Sorry, but facts are facts: a random witch-priestess marrying a wealthy spice merchant is a big step up. A common merchant suddenly being ennobled for no apparent reason is another step up, an upjumped lord's daughter marrying into one of the oldest bloodlines in the region is another step up, and her daughter marrying a king tops it off. These are all solid, undisputable facts. This is what happened. If these facts are not compelling enough for you to draw the conclusion, that's fine. But don't try to pretend they don't exist. They are all right there in plain text.

I do, in fact, support RLJ but not to exclusion of all other possibilities. I have the sense to acknowledge that it is based on very little actual evidence. There is no evidence that this kidnap story is true; no evidence that Rhaegar had anything at all to do with Lyanna's disappearance; no evidence that they were ever together after Harenhall. The entire theory is based on dreams and visions and symbols. It would be the height of folly to conclude that RLJ must be true because otherwise it will cause me to rethink my impression of Rhaegar, Lyanna, etc. Nobody can truly see into the mind of a non-PoV character, so to use that as the rock on which to base the further understanding of events is, again, the height of folly, IMO. :)

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19 hours ago, Lollygag said:

This isn't what I said at all.

https://mythicscribes.com/character-development/character-agency/

If I had a truly powerful love potion or anything that could be considered mind control, I would aim much higher than a Westerling.

Who's to say they didn't try for a Lannister? Tytos perhaps? The mistress whom Tytos fell madly in love with, who was later exiled by Tywin. Marched through the streets of Lannisport, exactly where we later find Maggy. This is what happens when you reach too high too fast.

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4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I see. So, do you think Jeyne being related to Maggy the Frog has any significance ? 

I can’t say what relevance Maggy the Frog has to the Jeyne Westerling plot, if any. GRRM, I believe, has mentioned that the prologue of Winds will involve Jeyne. Some have speculated that it will be a rescue attempt by the Blackfish or the BwB. I don’t see to whom or why Sybell would reveal her love potion plan in the next book. My bet is she will soon be dead. GRRM had the perfect opportunity to reveal the love potion plot (if it existed) in the Jaime chapter, but all we hear Sybell say to Jaime is that she made sure Jeyne didn’t get pregnant. 

I think Maggy the Frog’s relevance in the story is more for Cersei’s plot. Cersei can’t get the woman out of her thoughts and dreams. Maggy’s prophecy is likely to drive Cersei mad, especially if she loses her two remaining children soon.

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