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Was Robb drugged?


Eternally_Theirs

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3 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I can’t say what relevance Maggy the Frog has to the Jeyne Westerling plot, if any. GRRM, I believe, has mentioned that the prologue of Winds will involve Jeyne. Some have speculated that it will be a rescue attempt by the Blackfish or the BwB. I don’t see to whom or why Sybell would reveal her love potion plan in the next book. My bet is she will soon be dead. GRRM had the perfect opportunity to reveal the love potion plot (if it existed) in the Jaime chapter, but all we hear Sybell say to Jaime is that she made sure Jeyne didn’t get pregnant. 

I think Maggy the Frog’s relevance in the story is more for Cersei’s plot. Cersei can’t get the woman out of her thoughts and dreams. Maggy’s prophecy is likely to drive Cersei mad, especially if she loses her two remaining children soon.

Or, the Blackfish will suddenly fall madly in love with Sybelle and mount a daring rescue attempt that either succeeds or gets them all killed -- perfectly normal behavior for a man who has resisted women and marriage all his life. :D

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23 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Or, the Blackfish will suddenly fall madly in love with Sybelle and mount a daring rescue attempt that either succeeds or gets them all killed -- perfectly normal behavior for a man who has resisted women and marriage all his life. :D

Now, that would be “evidence” for the love potion theory :P

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37 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Who's to say they didn't try for a Lannister? Tytos perhaps? The mistress whom Tytos fell madly in love with, who was later exiled by Tywin. Marched through the streets of Lannisport, exactly where we later find Maggy. This is what happens when you reach too high too fast.

You keep bringing this up, but I have no recollection of this being mentioned in the books. Can you point me to where I can find this info? Cheers.

30 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I can’t say what relevance Maggy the Frog has to the Jeyne Westerling plot, if any. GRRM, I believe, has mentioned that the prologue of Winds will involve Jeyne. Some have speculated that it will be a rescue attempt by the Blackfish or the BwB. I don’t see to whom or why Sybell would reveal her love potion plan in the next book. My bet is she will soon be dead. GRRM had the perfect opportunity to reveal the love potion plot (if it existed) in the Jaime chapter, but all we hear Sybell say to Jaime is that she made sure Jeyne didn’t get pregnant. 

I think Maggy the Frog’s relevance in the story is more for Cersei’s plot. Cersei can’t get the woman out of her thoughts and dreams. Maggy’s prophecy is likely to drive Cersei mad, especially if she loses her two remaining children soon.

:agree:

 

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27 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Or, the Blackfish will suddenly fall madly in love with Sybelle and mount a daring rescue attempt that either succeeds or gets them all killed -- perfectly normal behavior for a man who has resisted women and marriage all his life. :D

 

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

Now, that would be “evidence” for the love potion theory :P

What @teej6 said! :D

 

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I have to admit when I first saw the title to this thread my first reaction was to say to myself, I doubt it, but decided to read on because I’m open to fresh ideas and possible connections I haven’t noticed or thought much about before. I’m pleasantly surprised how much I’ve mulled this over this week and appreciate the thoughtful input. I definitely read on this site much more than I have time to reply, so rather than directly respond to individual posters I hope it’s cool if I just respond generally to the group.

In English, we use the term love to signify a vast array of human interactions and emotions and I ‘love’ these novels because I believe GRRM presents as many examples and permutations and refutations as he possibly can with a great sense of understanding, sensitivity and realism.

 I have always believed and still do, that Robb’s decisions regarding Jeyne, both in regards to having sex with her and marrying her are consistent with his free will, understandably human choices and directly influential in his tragic death. I also believe it adds weight to the tragedy to see it in that light. He was a young man who experienced closeness physically and emotionally with a young woman and fell in love with her, a young woman aligned to a family at war with his family. It even has that touch of Romeo and Juliet and the innocence of first love.

 

  An interesting concept of what happens when people fall in love, that I’ve always found compelling, is that in many ways it can be like a drug. It can feel euphoric  accompanied by a lowering of inhibitions. Ego boundaries drop to the point of feeling merged with the other person, as in two hearts that beat as one. We perceive the other person in ways that accentuate the best qualities of looks and personality and minimize any defects. We experience elevated heart rates in their presence and ease of intimacy where all communication may seem effortless and intoxicating ,etc. It even manifests in the terms we use to describe the experience; falling for someone, crazy about someone, head over heels, two hearts that beat as one, lovestruck fool and so on. It’s not exactly the most rational state of mind and is usually accompanied with a certain degree of vulnerability. Of course it often results in sexual expression and  the potential for offspring in heterosexuals.
  Some psychologists talk about  it mainly in terms of a biological trick to help ensure propagation. Others with a more philosophical or spiritual focus, may suggest it is also in part a drive or need for connection to a larger mystery such as a universal unconscious or as a spark of the divine in the other person that draws us together and merges our identities temporarily.  I tend to favor those idea because they allow for the possibility to occur regardless of gender or sexuality. I stress temporarily because it doesn’t last forever but perhaps it does allow us a glimpse of some larger significance, in similar fashion to a psychotropic drug or even a dream or trance. Ultimately, though I think the power of that sort of insight to be elusive, even though certain aspects may resonate with us for much longer or reoccur. Real life concerns for the most part burst the bubble or lessen the emotional high. Our ego boundaries return, not always simultaneously but eventually the two hearts that beat as one become two individuals again and sometimes with a third beating inside one of the two.  This can be accompanied by a sense of uncertainty, panic, anger or disillusionment and heartbreak and it can also result in lasting and genuine feelings of regard and affection and for some a chance to commit to another person and form a lasting loving relationship. My point being it is temporal and impermanent but also real and significant, perhaps even ‘real’ magic. 
   Now, this is necessarily a bit of a simplification because the emotions and desires and motivations of the heart are enormously complex and individual experiences vary due to personality, age, circumstance, reciprocity, frequency and so forth and any attempt to define love is a monumental challenge. I would add, though that falling in love can have a profound, powerful and lasting effect on people positively and negatively and the experience contains a strong element of mystery, as well as a strong element of being beyond our immediate control and maybe contains elements of power that we don’t completely understand and are deserving of care and respect. We don’t really choose with whom or when it happens but we definitely choose how we respond to it. We also, I think, choose how we respond to it when we see it happening to other people.

   I see this as the crux of Robb’s dilemma and his downfall. His choices were politically disastrous, obviously but also somewhat innocent and definitely human. Nobody exists in a vacuum, so choices affect the people around us and due to Robb’s status, his had enormous effect. He also took appropriate steps to remedy or amend some of that effect. He wasn’t the only  player in this particular tragedy either, however and Tywin’s choices loom largely and I think Sybelle’s probably play a significant role too. So, if Sybelle does have access to a love potion, it would have to be exceptionally powerful to cover all the complexities involved and I think in GRRM’s world would demand an equally powerful price. 

  I still favor the idea of manipulation and facilitation on the part of Sybelle and Tywin but don’t deny other possibilities and I am actually intrigued by much of what John Suburbs and others have laid out in terms of textual clues. They don’t necessarily lesson the tragic impact but add additional layers and connections to the themes of power and innocence and I will try to add a few I haven’t seen mentioned like the following SSM:

Fantasy needs magic in it, but I try to control the magic very strictly. You can have too much magic in fantasy very easily, and then it overwhelms everything and you lose all sense of realism. And I try to keep the magic magical — something mysterious and dark and dangerous, and something never completely understood. I don’t want to go down the route of having magic schools and classes where, if you say these six words, something will reliably happen. Magic doesn’t work that way. Magic is playing with forces you don’t completely understand. And perhaps with beings or deities you don’t completely understand. It should have a sense of peril about it.

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22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sorry, that's how most people that I see quote, a section at a time. I was just trying to make sure I responded to everything. 

Tbh I don't have much of an opinion on Walder being an upjump vs an upstart or his level of white trashy-ness or lack there of, I was just asking questions for clarification purposes & felt like I was getting conflicting information from you about it. I'm not a Walder fan & it's not the hill I want to die on. 

An ad-hominem attack is an attack on you personally rather than your view or position so I'm not really sure how saying the show doesn't matter is an ad-hominem attack. The show doesn't matter irt the novels, that's been established repeatedly. There is a reason there is not to be any show discussion in the book forum. 

I haven't even rebutted your claim that the Freys are white trash but I've never seen them called such. I was still trying to figure out why exactly you were calling them that, like what specific things or behaviors they have expressed that lead you to this conclusion. Walder Frey is a rude, disloyal, old man but idk if that makes him & the rest of his kin white trash. To each their own though. 

Walder is trying to make matches for all of his dependents. That doesn't equate dumping them off on whoever like they are disposable, that's what he is supposed to do. 

As for not remembering their names, yeah he is a dick & is not nice to them verbally, I said that. He doesn't mistreat them in anyway that we are aware of. 

Not everyone in the series behaves deviously. Walder is talked about for not arriving to the battle, waiting to pick the winning side. He is specifically called the 'Late' Walder Frey. While I'm sure there are other reasons he is looked upon with disdain all this reverse-enginnering, not saying why you really don't like them stuff seems like a convoluted mess & quite unnecessary to me. 

I'm not ignoring your point, you said Walder isn't really looked poorly upon for waiting until the last minute to pick a side & you evidenced that by saying Tywin did the same thing & isn't viewed as such. I said that's because Tywin has established his reputation in other ways, while Walder has not. 

The format works ok sometimes, but it starts to rabbit hole the more things get broken down, especially when it goes down to just quoting sentence fragments. Context is also lost at a certain point. As you say, it can lead to dying on hills you initially didn't even care about! It seems to work better in discussions but not so much with disagreements or debates.

Your referral to the show as the abomination (agree completely) and saying it's irrelevant make it appear like you were doing an ad hominem. They aren't wrong about everything. Technically. But my point wasn't about the show so much as book readers' response to the show's portrayal of the Freys. Or rather, lack of a response. Showing them as white trash in the show was in line with how they perceived the Freys in the books whether they use the specific term "white trash" or not, otherwise it would have been ranted about extensively.

I consider not knowing or caring about the names of your children as mistreatment. Not nice to them verbally is verbal abuse. Ned gets crapped on as a parent for not caring about Sansa marrying someone as awful as Joff so I apply the same standard to Walder. He should care that his kids marry someone who will at least not abuse them and a good parent will make sure their choice is informed. That he talks about "getting rid of" his kids right in front of them is mistreatment. That's different from making a good match which implies some concern for care.

There are no absolutes but behaving deviously is common enough that this is what the books center around with the first book being called AGOT. It's a suitable name for the entire series in place of ASOIAF. Bold: It is a convoluted mess. But that's how people are sometimes. It's extraordinarily common in real life and GRRM has his characters do it, too. If you don't want to pay attention to it, then don't. But it's in the books regardless. The Freys are mainly looked down upon for being trashy. Other families are newer yet they don't get that treatment. Somehow status becomes a non-issue when monarchs replace high-born disloyal families with new and loyal ones. I think Robb's motives for sleeping with and marrying Jeyne are very complicated, but the Freys being trashy and notoriously unattractive were part of that. GRRM calls that out in the books directly as seen in the quotes above. Tywin was only a single example to the larger point being the norm is to act deviously and yet the Freys are derided for this but others aren't. Disagreeing with a single example doesn't refute a larger general point. It's in the name of the books themselves. Bold: I can't buy that Walder who heads a major house and is that old doesn't have a well-established reputation in Westeros for a lot of things, even if they're not itemized in the books.

22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tbh I'm still a little confused about your stance. You equate love potion to mind control (which it is not) but then say 

On 2/15/2020 at 5:03 PM, Lollygag said:

Whatever was going on was more complex but I can't say what that was. There's more to meet the eye on the Spicer-Westerlings and I'm guessing that there are so many holes because future plots may get spoiled

Which I agree with. We don't know what it was, that's why some are speculating a love potion. I'm not sold that is what happened, just speculating, but IMO a love potion would fit being "more than meets the eye" & something more complex going on. Not a mind control drug, a love potion. Or a 'lust' potion or any such potion that may give Robb the feeling that he cares for, loves, or has to sleep with Jeyne. 

:agree:

Yeah, it seems like the thread is using the term potion in a rather jello-y way. I've seen some love potions and spells portrayed as full mind-control in other books, shows and movies. It varies so that may be the source of some of the confusion.

Robb didn't want to marry a Frey especially and likely wanted some say in his own marriage. I can well imagine he wanted I-don't-want-to-think-anymore sex after finding out about Theon, Winterfell and Bran and Rickon. He and Jeyne seem to have a real connection. The Spicers probably have something to push Robb past considering the steep consequences if he already wanted to do it, but nothing stronger than that.

 

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10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Who's to say they didn't try for a Lannister? Tytos perhaps? The mistress whom Tytos fell madly in love with, who was later exiled by Tywin. Marched through the streets of Lannisport, exactly where we later find Maggy. This is what happens when you reach too high too fast.

Whatifs and maybes aren't proof. You're grasping at straws.

From the wiki:

In his last few years, Tytos became very fat[10] and took a new mistress, a commonborn daughter of a candlemaker. She helped herself to the late Jeyne Marbrand's jewels and clothes and also began ordering about household knights, dismissed servants, and sat in attendance when Tytos was absent. While Tywin was in King's Landing In 267 AC, Tytos died of a heart attack while climbing stairs to see her.[10] Tywin, the new Lord of Casterly Rock, ordered a walk of atonement through Lannisport for his father's mistress.[11]

...

At the age of ten in 276 AC, Cersei became infatuated with Rhaegar after meeting him for the first time during the tournament in honor of Viserys's birth at Lannisport.[21][1] Before the tourney began Cersei's aunt, Lady Genna, informed Cersei that her betrothal to Rhaegar would be announced during the final feast of the tourney.

...

 Following Genna's announcement that Cersei's betrothal to Rhaegar would soon be announced, Cersei brought Melara Hetherspoon and Jeyne Farman to a woods witch, Maggy the Frog.

 

In 276 AC, Cersei meets Maggy who is a very old woman. This is only 9 years after Tytos' death. Also, Tytos' mistress was a daughter of a candlemaker which means people know her family and origins.

AFFC Cersei VIII

The old woman's eyes were yellow, and crusted all about with something vile. In Lannisport it was said that she had been young and beautiful when her husband had brought her back from the east with a load of spices, but age and evil had left their marks on her. She was short, squat, and warty, with pebbly greenish jowls. Her teeth were gone and her dugs hung down to her knees. You could smell sickness on her if you stood too close, and when she spoke her breath was strange and strong and foul. "Begone," she told the girls, in a croaking whisper. :drool:  :wub:  :leer:

 

Also, Jeyne was born in 283 AC and is Maggy's great granddaughter, meaning in 267, Maggy was a mother and a likely grandmother already. Also, Tywin would know if Tytos' whore was matriarch of House Spicer who aren't candlemakers, btw.

 

Regardless, they clearly failed if any attempt was made to improve their station above a Westerling and they won the lottery when Robb fell into their lap injured, traumatized, wanting out of a Frey marriage and taking a liking to Jeyne, so if there are any potions, spells, whatnot, they're way too weak to come with guaranteed results. The failure stands out even more if they've been trying to improve their lot over several generations and still couldn't succeed above a Westerling.

 

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12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, maesters make it as well. But here I think it’s Sybell making it. She has the knowledge, but also I don’t think she’d want to go to their maester for something like this. If they have one, I don’t think we’ve heard anything about there being one at the Crag, but I could be wrong. 

Without abstinence or some sort of contraception, Westerosi families would on average be a great deal larger. I have to think making moontea isn't a big deal as we're not told about any one using any other methods to keep their families so small. Also, that leads to the implication that on average, families without maesters would be a lot larger than families with a maester but we don't see that.

It's easy to assume that she just knows how to make it or that someone in her household does without adding a complicated witchy background.

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On 2/15/2020 at 9:44 AM, Lollygag said:

AGOT Jon I

After them came the children. Little Rickon first, managing the long walk with all the dignity a three-year-old could muster. Jon had to urge him on when he stopped to visit. Close behind came Robb, in grey wool trimmed with white, the Stark colors. He had the Princess Myrcella on his arm. She was a wisp of a girl, not quite eight, her hair a cascade of golden curls under a jeweled net. Jon noticed the shy looks she gave Robb as they passed between the tables and the timid way she smiled at him. He decided she was insipid. Robb didn't even have the sense to realize how stupid she was; he was grinning like a fool. 

 

If GRRM didn't want to introduce doubt as to Robb's intentions in regards to his marriage situation, then I can't see the point of adding Robb acting like a fool around a pretty girl,

Sorry, I'm catching up here, way behind.

What makes you think Robb is acting like a fool because Myrcella is pretty?
She's 7. Thats younger than Arya! And small, a wisp of a girl.

Robb isn't grinning like a fool because she's pretty. He's not even noticing her! He's grinning like a fool because he's getting to play the High Lord Heir, matched up with the only genuine princess there is in the whole frikken continent!

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Just now, corbon said:

Sorry, I'm catching up here, way behind.

What makes you think Robb is acting like a fool because Myrcella is pretty?
She's 8. Thats younger than Arya! And small, a wisp of a girl.

Robb isn't grinning like a fool because she's pretty. He's not even noticing her! He's grinning like a fool because he's getting to play the High Lord Heir, matched up with the only genuine princess there is in the whole frikken continent!

Yeah, that's weird for me too especially with Robb being 14 but this is hardly the first time the Westerosi did :ack: things for the modern reader. Myrcella, at 8, is clearly flirting. A lot. With a 14 year old. Jon seems to think it's normal as he's hardly wtf about it beyond Myrcella being insipid, so I'm going with the obvious explanation.

Robb almost has a breakdown (via Bran's POV) when he's burdened with being Lord after Ned's capture, he hated being king, and he married a Westerling of all people, not a fancy princess.

It makes no sense to mention Myrcella being pretty, shy looks, Robb grinning and acting like a fool and have it all be something completely different which isn't even in character for Robb. Robb did notice. Hence grinning like a fool.

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2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Yeah, that's weird for me too especially with Robb being 14 but this is hardly the first time the Westerosi did :ack: things for the modern reader. Myrcella, at 8, is clearly flirting. A lot. With a 14 year old. Jon seems to think it's normal as he's hardly wtf about it beyond Myrcella being insipid, so I'm going with the obvious explanation.

I think you have it completely wrong.

Myrcella isn't flirting, she's a bit overwhelmed by Robb, but not yet capable of flirting. Nor is Robb paying her any attention.
Let me remind you.

Quote
Next had come King Robert himself, with Lady Stark on his arm. The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups.
After them came the children. Little Rickon first, managing the long walk with all the dignity a three-year-old could muster. Jon had to urge him on when he stopped to visit. Close behind came Robb, in grey wool trimmed with white, the Stark colors. He had the Princess Myrcella on his arm. She was a wisp of a girl, not quite eight, her hair a cascade of golden curls under a jeweled net. Jon noticed the shy looks she gave Robb as they passed between the tables and the timid way she smiled at him. He decided she was insipid. Robb didn't even have the sense to realize how stupid she was; he was grinning like a fool.
His half sisters escorted the royal princes. Arya was paired with plump young Tommen, whose white-blond hair was longer than hers. Sansa, two years older, drew the crown prince, Joffrey Baratheon. He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon's vast dismay. Prince Joffrey had his sister's hair and his mother's deep green eyes. A thick tangle of blond curls dripped down past his golden choker and high velvet collar. Sansa looked radiant as she walked beside him, but Jon did not like Joffrey's pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell's Great Hall.

She's seven, and small. He's thirteen or fourteen, nearly a man, so to speak, and at that age very conscious of it. They are effectively parading. She's shy and timid, impressed with him, but not capable of flirting yet. Robb is paying her no apparent attention. Its not her prettiness that is making him grin foolishly, its the fact that he's parading with the royal family and paired with the princess, not the sort of thing Robb normally gets to do, or the sort of attention he normally gets from everyone, I suspect (based on Ned's style of raising kids).
Here's the other relevant scene, from a later Bran chapter.

Quote

It had been the night of the welcoming feast, when King Robert had brought his court to Winterfell. Summer still reigned then. His parents had shared the dais with Robert and his queen, with her brothers beside her. Uncle Benjen had been there too, all in black. Bran and his brothers and sisters sat with the king's children, Joffrey and Tommen and Princess Myrcella, who'd spent the whole meal gazing at Robb with adoring eyes. Arya made faces across the table when no one was looking; Sansa listened raptly while the king's high harper sang songs of chivalry, and Rickon kept asking why Jon wasn't with them. "Because he's a bastard," Bran finally had to whisper to him.

Note that there is no mention of Robb flirting with or paying attention to Myrcella (or even at all, though he's there). And Myrcella is gazing at him adoringly - she's crushing, but doesn't even know how to flirt yet.

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Robb almost has a breakdown (via Bran's POV) when he's burdened with being Lord after Ned's capture, he hated being king, and he married a Westerling of all people, not a fancy princess.

Indeed. He takes the responsibility seriously, and its way too much for a boy. He's Ned's son, for sure.

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

It makes no sense to mention Myrcella being pretty, shy looks, Robb grinning and acting like a fool and have it all be something completely different which isn't even in character for Robb. Robb did notice. Hence grinning like a fool.

I disagree that Robb enjoying a little attention is out of character. There's no responsibility at all to weigh him down, just immature upsides.

Its also worth noting that this is Jon's POV, coloured by Jon's perceptions and insecurities.

I do see Myrcella crushing a little of Robb, but unaware of what to do with that. I don't see any evidence at all Robb is 'taken' with this small 7 year old and its making him foolish.

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6 hours ago, corbon said:

I think you have it completely wrong.

Myrcella isn't flirting, she's a bit overwhelmed by Robb, but not yet capable of flirting. Nor is Robb paying her any attention.
Let me remind you.

She's seven, and small. He's thirteen or fourteen, nearly a man, so to speak, and at that age very conscious of it. They are effectively parading. She's shy and timid, impressed with him, but not capable of flirting yet. Robb is paying her no apparent attention. Its not her prettiness that is making him grin foolishly, its the fact that he's parading with the royal family and paired with the princess, not the sort of thing Robb normally gets to do, or the sort of attention he normally gets from everyone, I suspect (based on Ned's style of raising kids).
Here's the other relevant scene, from a later Bran chapter.

Note that there is no mention of Robb flirting with or paying attention to Myrcella (or even at all, though he's there). And Myrcella is gazing at him adoringly - she's crushing, but doesn't even know how to flirt yet.

Indeed. He takes the responsibility seriously, and its way too much for a boy. He's Ned's son, for sure.

I disagree that Robb enjoying a little attention is out of character. There's no responsibility at all to weigh him down, just immature upsides.

Its also worth noting that this is Jon's POV, coloured by Jon's perceptions and insecurities.

I do see Myrcella crushing a little of Robb, but unaware of what to do with that. I don't see any evidence at all Robb is 'taken' with this small 7 year old and its making him foolish.

You just repeated yourself. I still don't buy it. The text is clear when one gives up modern interpretations and considers that both Robb and Myrcella are of age for a betrothal and this is Westeros where they're often :stillsick:. Margaery married Tommen when he was around 8 and it was no big deal to anyone though it was understood any consummation would have to wait. Tyrek was married to a baby. Again, no big deal.

You seem to have a more sexualized definition of flirting than I do. Starting at a boy with adoring eyes, shy smiles, etc, is flirting, but the grade-school kind, not rendezvous in the nearest hayloft kind. Robb isn't hot for Myrcella in the bow-chicka-wow-wow sense, but he is twitterpated about a possible betrothal to a nice girl who likes him a lot and won't look like a Frey when she gets older.

 

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12 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Yeah, it seems like the thread is using the term potion in a rather jello-y way. I've seen some love potions and spells portrayed as full mind-control in other books, shows and movies. It varies so that may be the source of some of the confusion.

Yeah, I've seen them portrayed that way also. It wouldn't be that way here though, if it did happen. Else wise, like you mentioned, not only would it absolve Robb of any free-will & completely miss the point of Robb's choices & any potential consequences. 

12 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Robb didn't want to marry a Frey especially and likely wanted some say in his own marriage. I can well imagine he wanted I-don't-want-to-think-anymore sex after finding out about Theon, Winterfell and Bran and Rickon. He and Jeyne seem to have a real connection. The Spicers probably have something to push Robb past considering the steep consequences if he already wanted to do it, but nothing stronger than that.

Right, I mean I think his not wanting to marry was a multi-layered reasoning. I'm sure he would like some say in his own marriage, he was in a rough spot, etc. I think of the potential love potion more of a push toward Jeyne specifically more than anything else. He was already set up to be in need of some comfort, Sybell/Tywin wanted that comfort to come from Jeyne because it fit their agenda. 

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13 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You just repeated yourself. I still don't buy it. The text is clear when one gives up modern interpretations and considers that both Robb and Myrcella are of age for a betrothal and this is Westeros where they're often :stillsick:. Margaery married Tommen when he was around 8 and it was no big deal to anyone though it was understood any consummation would have to wait. Tyrek was married to a baby. Again, no big deal.

We actually were just discussing this in another thread & it isn't particularly clear. According to an SSM:

Quote

In the "general Westerosi view," well, girls may well be wed before their first flowerings, for political reasons, but it would considered perverse to bed them. And such early weddings, even without sex, remain rare.

Doesn't really say if the betrothals are rare at a young age but I would imagine they are not the common custom. Not to say it doesn't happen or it isn't accepted - it is. But it seems a little odd for Robb to be smitten with young Myrcella. Re-reading that portion I have to agree with Corbon. I think Robb is grinning like a goof because of all the attention, being able to walk with the royal princess, etc. It doesn't even say Robb is looking at Myrcella when he is grinning & nothing before or after to indicate he was flirting with Myrcella. 

 

19 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You seem to have a more sexualized definition of flirting than I do. Starting at a boy with adoring eyes, shy smiles, etc, is flirting, but the grade-school kind, not rendezvous in the nearest hayloft kind. Robb isn't hot for Myrcella in the bow-chicka-wow-wow sense, but he is twitterpated about a possible betrothal to a nice girl who likes him a lot and won't look like a Frey when she gets older.

Sure, Myrcella is crushing on Robb a bit. Flirting without meaning too perhaps (I don't think she is intentionally giving him these adoring eyes in a manner by which to entice him, I think she is doing it because she is young & doesn't hide her feelings very well) But that is Myrcella, not Robb. Robb doesn't express any of this nor do I see anything to say he is "twitterpated" about a possible betrothal to a nice girl who likes him alot & won't look like a Frey when she gets older. 

There isn't any possible betrothal between Myrcella & Robb so no real reason for him to think that to begin with & while he certainly would want a nice looking bride, the idea of being betrothed to a Frey wouldn't have crossed his mind at all at this point. 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We actually were just discussing this in another thread & it isn't particularly clear. According to an SSM:

Doesn't really say if the betrothals are rare at a young age but I would imagine they are not the common custom. Not to say it doesn't happen or it isn't accepted - it is. But it seems a little odd for Robb to be smitten with young Myrcella. Re-reading that portion I have to agree with Corbon. I think Robb is grinning like a goof because of all the attention, being able to walk with the royal princess, etc. It doesn't even say Robb is looking at Myrcella when he is grinning & nothing before or after to indicate he was flirting with Myrcella.  

 

Sure, Myrcella is crushing on Robb a bit. Flirting without meaning too perhaps (I don't think she is intentionally giving him these adoring eyes in a manner by which to entice him, I think she is doing it because she is young & doesn't hide her feelings very well) But that is Myrcella, not Robb. Robb doesn't express any of this nor do I see anything to say he is "twitterpated" about a possible betrothal to a nice girl who likes him alot & won't look like a Frey when she gets older. 

There isn't any possible betrothal between Myrcella & Robb so no real reason for him to think that to begin with & while he certainly would want a nice looking bride, the idea of being betrothed to a Frey wouldn't have crossed his mind at all at this point. 

 

That they're rare and not ideal is my take, too. But there's no shock or outrage over it either. They live in a world where they're marriageable from birth and may well get betrothed while still children.

Close behind came Robb, in grey wool trimmed with white, the Stark colors. He had the Princess Myrcella on his arm. She was a wisp of a girl, not quite eight, her hair a cascade of golden curls under a jeweled net. Jon noticed the shy looks she gave Robb as they passed between the tables and the timid way she smiled at him. He decided she was insipid. Robb didn't even have the sense to realize how stupid she was; he was grinning like a fool.

 

Robb's reaction to Myrcella and his grinning are in the very same sentence meaning they're related which also means we don't need to be told that Robb saw Myrcella. It's in the sentence structure itself. Immediately preceding was Jon noticing the flirting. Any other interpretation would require this to be written in a completely different way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semicolon

The semicolon or semi-colon[1] (;) is a punctuation mark that separates major sentence elements. A semicolon can be used between two closely related independent clauses, provided they are not already joined by a coordinating conjunction. Semicolons can also be used in place of commas to separate the items in a list, particularly when the elements of that list contain commas.

I agree that it's weird for Robb to be grinning like a fool at an 8 year old but this is Westeros. They've lived their whole lives aware that marriage might be right around the corner. GRRM also seems to a be a bit off from his readers in that regard. Jon gets turned on by a girl who looks his sisters. He thought Drago's and Dany's wedding night was a bit romantic (!!!!!). He can't stop writing about incest. It is what it is.

A betrothal between Myrcella and the future Warden of the North is entirely possible and appropriate. It became a bit redundant though after Joff and Sansa were made official. Mentioning a Frey was looping back to the OP on my part with the point being he would be hoping for a wife he found attractive. Myrcella fit that.

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15 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

 

That they're rare and not ideal is my take, too. But there's no shock or outrage over it either. They live in a world where they're marriageable from birth and may well get betrothed while still children.

Close behind came Robb, in grey wool trimmed with white, the Stark colors. He had the Princess Myrcella on his arm. She was a wisp of a girl, not quite eight, her hair a cascade of golden curls under a jeweled net. Jon noticed the shy looks she gave Robb as they passed between the tables and the timid way she smiled at him. He decided she was insipid. Robb didn't even have the sense to realize how stupid she was; he was grinning like a fool.

 

Robb's reaction to Myrcella and his grinning are in the very same sentence meaning they're related which also means we don't need to be told that Robb saw Myrcella. It's in the sentence structure itself. Immediately preceding was Jon noticing the flirting. Any other interpretation would require this to be written in a completely different way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semicolon

The semicolon or semi-colon[1] (;) is a punctuation mark that separates major sentence elements. A semicolon can be used between two closely related independent clauses, provided they are not already joined by a coordinating conjunction. Semicolons can also be used in place of commas to separate the items in a list, particularly when the elements of that list contain commas.

I agree that it's weird for Robb to be grinning like a fool at an 8 year old but this is Westeros. They've lived their whole lives aware that marriage might be right around the corner. GRRM also seems to a be a bit off from his readers in that regard. Jon gets turned on by a girl who looks his sisters. He thought Drago's and Dany's wedding night was a bit romantic (!!!!!). He can't stop writing about incest. It is what it is.

A betrothal between Myrcella and the future Warden of the North is entirely possible and appropriate. It became a bit redundant though after Joff and Sansa were made official.

Yeah I agree, there is no shock or outrage over it, it is certainly done. 

I don't think it would need to be written any different. Jon is just saying Robb is grinning like a fool & doesn't realize how stupid Myrcella is. Because if he did, he wouldn't be grinning like a fool (In Jon's opinion) 

There really is no "Robb's reaction to Myrcella" it just says he doesn't realize how stupid she is, evidenced by his grinning like a fool. This doesn't need to be because he is attracted to Myrcella, but only because he is happy, euphoric even, probably because he is in the royal parade, walking with a princess. 

I'm not saying a betrothal between them is impossible or inappropriate, just that there is no talk of such & it's adding text that isn't there to assume Robb is grinning like a fool over a potential betrothal to a 7 year old. The easier explanation is that he is grinning like a fool over his circumstances in general. 

I could agree if this was backed by any other instance in which Robb shows Myrcella the slightest bit of attention or speaks about her at all, but he doesn't. 

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21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

You keep bringing this up, but I have no recollection of this being mentioned in the books. Can you point me to where I can find this info? Cheers.

Yeah, you may be right. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions, but the tent that Cersei found her in was at the tourney for prince Viserys. But this is a minor detail. She may not have been a street person, but she is certainly not living up to the standards of a wealthy merchant's wife. She's a ragged old hag who apparently has to support herself selling cures and potions. There is no possible way anyone could think this was a proper marriage for the spicer.

But if the spicer had already died, and Maggy dosed Tytos to take her as his mistress and ennoble her son, only to then be cast out by Tywin with no other means of support . . . sure, she winds up selling goodies out of a tent.

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12 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Whatifs and maybes aren't proof. You're grasping at straws.

From the wiki:

In his last few years, Tytos became very fat[10] and took a new mistress, a commonborn daughter of a candlemaker. She helped herself to the late Jeyne Marbrand's jewels and clothes and also began ordering about household knights, dismissed servants, and sat in attendance when Tytos was absent. While Tywin was in King's Landing In 267 AC, Tytos died of a heart attack while climbing stairs to see her.[10] Tywin, the new Lord of Casterly Rock, ordered a walk of atonement through Lannisport for his father's mistress.[11]

...

At the age of ten in 276 AC, Cersei became infatuated with Rhaegar after meeting him for the first time during the tournament in honor of Viserys's birth at Lannisport.[21][1] Before the tourney began Cersei's aunt, Lady Genna, informed Cersei that her betrothal to Rhaegar would be announced during the final feast of the tourney.

...

 Following Genna's announcement that Cersei's betrothal to Rhaegar would soon be announced, Cersei brought Melara Hetherspoon and Jeyne Farman to a woods witch, Maggy the Frog.

 

In 276 AC, Cersei meets Maggy who is a very old woman. This is only 9 years after Tytos' death. Also, Tytos' mistress was a daughter of a candlemaker which means people know her family and origins.

AFFC Cersei VIII

The old woman's eyes were yellow, and crusted all about with something vile. In Lannisport it was said that she had been young and beautiful when her husband had brought her back from the east with a load of spices, but age and evil had left their marks on her. She was short, squat, and warty, with pebbly greenish jowls. Her teeth were gone and her dugs hung down to her knees. You could smell sickness on her if you stood too close, and when she spoke her breath was strange and strong and foul. "Begone," she told the girls, in a croaking whisper. :drool:  :wub:  :leer:

 

Also, Jeyne was born in 283 AC and is Maggy's great granddaughter, meaning in 267, Maggy was a mother and a likely grandmother already. Also, Tywin would know if Tytos' whore was matriarch of House Spicer who aren't candlemakers, btw.

 

Regardless, they clearly failed if any attempt was made to improve their station above a Westerling and they won the lottery when Robb fell into their lap injured, traumatized, wanting out of a Frey marriage and taking a liking to Jeyne, so if there are any potions, spells, whatnot, they're way too weak to come with guaranteed results. The failure stands out even more if they've been trying to improve their lot over several generations and still couldn't succeed above a Westerling.

 

I never said there was proof. Just evidence to support a conclusion. What I'm arguing against is when people say there is no evidence nor any reason to even consider the possibility. The evidence is right there on the page.

Candlemakers are commoners who don't trace their heritage the way lords do. The candlemaker story can easily be a lie.

Melisandre, also of the heart-shaped face, is a great beauty as well but is quite possible glamoured and far older than she appears. Shiera Seastar, another heart-shaped face, was also said to bathe in blood and use other magic to preserve her beauty. Witch priestesses can do this. It's called magic. They can also change their appearance so even if Tywin did meet the crazy old wife of a common spice merchant, he wouldn't recognize her. 

And yes, by the time Cersei meets Maggy, she is likely already a mother and a grandmother, but she is no longer posing as Tytos' mistress.

Lol, Queen of the North is not an improvement above a Westerling? I think you need to read up on the difference between a queen and the daughter of an old, impoverished house.

There is a better chance of being struck by lightning than winning the lottery. There are simply too many lottery winners among the Spicer women.

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