Was Robb drugged?

[teej6]

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Of course Robb would not know anything was amiss. What would be the point of a love potion if the victim knows he is only feeling these things because he is under the spell of a love potion?

So you are stating the love potion acted on Robb till he was stabbed in the heart? Is that it? How does this love potion work? Is the person under its spell forever? If so why claim Robb “grows cold” towards Jeyne. My question to you was once the love potion’s effects wear off and Robb sees Jeyne and feels no attraction towards her, won’t he wonder why he slept with her in the first place? Won’t he think, hmmm is this what I gave up a 1000 mounted knights and 3000 foot soldiers for?

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Robb just falling in love is not the simpler explanation. He is wounded, taking opiates, and now grieving for his brothers and suddenly this turns into such a burning passion for this rather plain-looking girl that he throws away is kingdom for her? Sorry, but no. The simpler explanation is that he was potioned, and what better time to do that when he is in the pit of sorrow?

Of course Robb, a teenager, who is wounded both physically and emotionally, and who is in pain and prolly on milk of the poppy, being attracted to a pretty girl who nursed and cared for him is the more obvious and simpler explanation rather than the alternative — magic love potions. 

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Plus we have the fact that this plot between Sybelle and Tywin could not have come about just as a result of Robb and Jeyne getting married. Once the Crag falls, the Westerlings have no practical way to communication over long distances. They don't control their ravens anymore, and the castle is on lock-down with no one coming or going without leave. Same thing at Riverrun. So that means Sybelle would be taking a tremendous risk by defying Tywin, and her own husband, in this way, and only through the most unlikely of fortuitous circumstances was she able to get out of it. Sorry, but the more likely explanation is that this granddaughter of the maegi who makes love potions used one to guarantee to Tywin that Robb and Jeyne would marry.

I’m not claiming that Tywin and Sybell weren’t in cahoots before Robb marrying Jeyne. They very much were. In fact Tywin  admits as much to Tyrion I believe. But their plan doesn’t have to involve love potions. Sybell could have just strategically placed her pretty daughter in a position where she could have cared for a wounded, impressionable, grieving teenager and hoped that said teenager would act on his desires, which he did. Tywin hoping Robb was honorable like Ned prolly assumed that if Robb slept with Jeyne, he would marry her and thus renege on his contract with the Freys. 

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

RLJ "clues and hints." Sure there are plenty of those -- visions and dreams of blue roses, dragons and all kinds of things -- but of actual evidence there is precious little. And none, in fact, that puts Rhaegar and Lyanna anywhere near each other after Harrenhall. The evidence I present here is firmly established in reality: Maggy does make love potions, the Spicer women have married far above their successive stations to men showing "more honor than sense", Jeyne does have a heart-shaped face just like Mel and Shiera Seastar, Robb does grow cold toward Jeyne shortly after their marriage -- the overwhelming, burning passion for her that caused him to give up the Freys and his kingdom is gone. All of these things are verified in the text, whereas the only thing verified for RLJ is the bloody bed and "Promise me, Ned."

How can there be actual evidence of R+L=J when the parentage (or mother if you want to be specific) of Jon is still a mystery that the author has yet to reveal? If there was evidence, it wouldn’t be a mystery anymore and we wouldn’t be debating it. Evidence is facts presented with proof, whereas clues are more like a guide to a certain outcome or conclusion.

As to the list of things you pointed out as evidence regarding your love potion theory, I don’t think any are actual evidence rather clues in the text that point to your theory, clues that I think are weaker than the clues for R+L=J. And as  @kissdbyfire stated, the two cases where Spicer women married above their station before Jeyne are nothing extraordinary... Maggy the Frog married a rich merchant, and Sybell married a Lord from an impoverished House. 

As to your argument that “Robb does grow cold to Jeyne shortly after their marriage...”, the text indicates otherwise.

Quote

Robb bid farewell to his young queen thrice. Once in the godswood before the heart tree, in sight of gods and men. The second time beneath the portcullis, where Jeyne sent him forth with a long embrace and a longer kiss. And finally an hour beyond the Tumblestone, when the girl came galloping up on a well-lathered horse to plead with her young king to take her along.

and 

Quote

“I had hoped to leave Jeyne with child . . . we tried often enough, but I’m not certain . . .”

It doesn’t sound like a cold or passionless marriage.

[Nittanian]

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t recall any connection between Maggy and Asshai, nor any mention of Asshai in the few times she’s brought up. And I can’t pronounce any of the Essosi names, that alone means nothing. 

The closest I can find is from AFFC Cersei VIII, "I don't recall the woman's name. Something long and eastern and outlandish. The smallfolk used to call her Maggy."

 

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Therae said:

I don't think Tywin would play THAT much ball over the baby. I think the deal was aimed at getting Robb to break faith with the Freys, and the non-baby was just cleaning up potential loose ends; if, once the RW was scheduled, and they hadn't already been in cahoots with Tywin from the get go, the only thing the Westerlings had to offer was ensuring Robb fathered no posthumous children of his body, I think the exchange would have been more like: no Starklings or no Westerlings.

I'm not sure I follow you. If Tywin doesn't care about a baby, then why would he care about Starklings or Westerlings?

Jeyne bearing Robb's child, whether a boy or a girl, would completely mess up Tywin's plan to take control of the north. Remember, he married Tyrion to Sansa specifically to install him as Lord of Winterfell, liberating the north from ironmen and wildlings when spring comes. But regardless of whether Robb is dead or alive, his child would be the rightful lord or lady of Winterfell in the eyes of the north. It is vital for Tywin that Robb produce no heirs, and even later, this is why Jaime forbade Jeyne from marrying again for a full two years, to remove all doubt that the child was Robb's.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t recall any connection between Maggy and Asshai, nor any mention of Asshai in the few times she’s brought up. And I can’t pronounce any of the Essosi names, that alone means nothing. 

This is pure guesswork on your part, since nothing is said that supports the idea. It sort of supports what you’re proposing, and you decided to run w/ it. Fine, but don’t state it as if it’s a well established fact b/c it isn’t. 

Again, speculation. Or if I’m misremembering please give me a quote to back it up. Off the top of my head I don’t remember anything like this being said at any point. Iirc, it’s said in a Cersei chapter that she did her witchery stuff in a tent or something to that effect, but there’s nothing about Maggy living on the streets. I could be wrong, though, that’s why I’m asking for a quote. 

Why? Like I said before, impoverished nobles marrying into a rich merchant family is not that uncommon. 

What kind of advantageous marriages would the Westerling kids be able to make otherwise? None of the higher nobility would want to marry their sons and daughters into a poor family, no matter that they are an old and noble family. 

Sorry, can't find the Asshai reference. Something Qyburn said, perhaps? But he would just be speculating too.

I don't have any problems pronouncing Essosi names, even the most eastern: Xaro Xhoan Daxos (Zaro Zohan Daxos), Hizdar zo Loraq (Hizdar zo Lorak), Jalabhar Xho (Jalabar Zo). They're pretty much exactly the way their spelled. Asshai is at the far end of the known world, however, another thousand leagues east of Quarth. This is most likely equivalent to Asian or at least Hindu culture, both of which have vastly different phonemes from the west. So again, when ascertaining the most likely explanation, the facts point to Asshai more than anywhere else. But as I said, all this is irrelevant. It doesn't matter where she comes from, she most certainly was not a bride who could benefit the Spicer as much as the daughter of a business partner or magistrate.

 Yes, she is sleeping in her tent, on the streets of Lannisport, not residing in the comfortable manse of her lord son:

Quote

The old woman's eyes were yellow, and crusted all about with something vile.  . . .  She was short, squat, and warty, with pebbly greenish jowls. Her teeth were gone and her dugs hung down to her knees. You could smell sickness on her if you stood too close, and when she spoke her breath was strange and strong and fowl.

Does this sound like the mother of even a petty lord? Maggy has either left her son's home or was thrown out and is now living a ragged subsistence-level existence on the streets.

What's interesting, now that I read this, is that her tent is filled with scents of "cloves and lemongrass and precious saffron, and stranger spices, rarer still. So what better person for her to dose with a love potion than a spice trader, particularly if she needed to make a quick exit from whatever city she had been living in?

It's not a smart move because it gives him a little cash now at the expense of the longer-term demise of his house. None of his children by Sybelle are fit for decent marriages because they are the spawn of upjumped merchants. Kevan Lannister:

Quote

"Lord Gawen once suggested her (Jeyne) to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybelle Spicer. He should never had wed her.  . . . And Jeyne seemed a sweet child, I'll grant you, though I only saw her once. But with such doubtful blood . . ."

Sorry, but I can't imagine there were no other noble maids available to Gawen Westerling, either in the westerlands or some other region. I'm certain there was a least a Frey or two available to him. They seem to pop up in the family trees of western lords on a steady basis.

Plenty of noble houses would be available to a Westerling of suitable blood. They are not as wealthy as they once were but they are an old and honorable house, certainly worthy of a younger son or daughter of a Brax, Broom, Kenning, Farman . . . even a junior branch of Lannister.

Anyway, this is the evidence. Accept it or reject it at your pleasure, but don't argue that it isn't there because it's right in the text, plain as day -- unlike RLJ which has maybe three pieces of highly subjective indications in the text and a whole lot of speculation and imaginary thinking.

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Nittanian said:

The closest I can find is from AFFC Cersei VIII, "I don't recall the woman's name. Something long and eastern and outlandish. The smallfolk used to call her Maggy."

 

Yeah, but that doesn’t point to Asshai specifically, just “foreign” IMO. And isn’t in the same scene where Qyburn tells her the word “maegy” and Cersei goes, “ah, is that how you say it?” (Paraphrasing)  

[John Suburbs]

13 hours ago, teej6 said:

So you are stating the love potion acted on Robb till he was stabbed in the heart? Is that it? How does this love potion work? Is the person under its spell forever? If so why claim Robb “grows cold” towards Jeyne. My question to you was once the love potion’s effects wear off and Robb sees Jeyne and feels no attraction towards her, won’t he wonder why he slept with her in the first place? Won’t he think, hmmm is this what I gave up a 1000 mounted knights and 3000 foot soldiers for?

Of course Robb, a teenager, who is wounded both physically and emotionally, and who is in pain and prolly on milk of the poppy, being attracted to a pretty girl who nursed and cared for him is the more obvious and simpler explanation rather than the alternative — magic love potions. 

I’m not claiming that Tywin and Sybell weren’t in cahoots before Robb marrying Jeyne. They very much were. In fact Tywin  admits as much to Tyrion I believe. But their plan doesn’t have to involve love potions. Sybell could have just strategically placed her pretty daughter in a position where she could have cared for a wounded, impressionable, grieving teenager and hoped that said teenager would act on his desires, which he did. Tywin hoping Robb was honorable like Ned prolly assumed that if Robb slept with Jeyne, he would marry her and thus renege on his contract with the Freys. 

How can there be actual evidence of R+L=J when the parentage (or mother if you want to be specific) of Jon is still a mystery that the author has yet to reveal? If there was evidence, it wouldn’t be a mystery anymore and we wouldn’t be debating it. Evidence is facts presented with proof, whereas clues are more like a guide to a certain outcome or conclusion.

As to the list of things you pointed out as evidence regarding your love potion theory, I don’t think any are actual evidence rather clues in the text that point to your theory, clues that I think are weaker than the clues for R+L=J. And as  @kissdbyfire stated, the two cases where Spicer women married above their station before Jeyne are nothing extraordinary... Maggy the Frog married a rich merchant, and Sybell married a Lord from an impoverished House. 

As to your argument that “Robb does grow cold to Jeyne shortly after their marriage...”, the text indicates otherwise.

and 

It doesn’t sound like a cold or passionless marriage.

Where do you get the idea that I am claiming anything of the sort? We can clearly see that the love potion has worn off shortly after Robb returns to Riverrun, and probably long before. He grows increasingly cold and distant towards her as time goes by. So, yes, this is exactly what he is thinking, "what have I done? what did I ever see in her?" -- exactly the opposite of what should be happening if he was genuinely in love. And this makes perfect sense because once the marriage is done, there is no need to keep dosing him. He married her the very next day after shagging her, so in all likelihood he was only dosed once.

Simple teenage love would be a perfectly adequate explanation if not for the fact that the Spicer women have a history of iffy marriages and they all descend from a woman who knew the secret of making love potions. Like so much else in Martin's writing, it's one of those connect-the-dots things.

So Tywin and Sybelle are plotting to bring down the King in the North just on the vague hope that Robb will fall for Jeyne, whom everybody agrees is moderately pretty but not someone to give up a crown for? It's more reasonable to you that this whole thing is the product of an incredible stroke of luck rather than Sybelle using all the tools at her disposal to ensure that things turned out this way? And that this stroke of incredible luck is the fourth time that such a thing has happened to the Spicers? How many incredibly fortunate coincidences do you think families get in this world?

Like I said, RLJ may very well be true, but there is precious little actual evidence to support it. How can you have a mystery without evidence? Good question, which I'll turn back on you with the Spicer love potion. If this was stated plainly and unequivocally in the text, there would be no mystery and we wouldn't be debating it. The thing is, with the potion, we do have actual evidence presented in the text as fact: the Spicer women have married above their station; the Spicer lord was ennobled for no apparent reason; Jeyne does have a heart-shaped face like two know magical women; Robb does grow colder and more distant with time. . . The only thing RLJ has is "Promise me, Ned" and then a whole lot of dreams, visions and speculation.

It is a fact that Robb grows increasingly distant from Jeyne, to the point where Jeyne seeks advice from Cat:

Quote

"It's Robb," the girl said. "He's so miserable, so . . . so angry and disconsolate. I don't know what to do."

. . .

He spent all morning writing a letter and told me not to disturb him, but when the letter was done he burned it. Now he is sitting and looking at maps. I asked him what he was looking for, but he never answered. I don't think he ever heard me.  . . . I want to be a good wife to him, but I don't know how to help. To cheer him, or comfort him. I don't know what ne needs, Please, my lady, you're his mother, tell me what I should do."

This is not the rational reaction of a boy who, only a few weeks before, had such a burning love for this woman that he jeopardized his crown for her.

So there are in fact clues upon clues upon clues -- actual factual clues, not dreams and visions -- that point to a love potion.

[TPTWP Timett]

On 2/11/2020 at 10:27 AM, John Suburbs said:

Really? Why Jeyne? What benefit could they get from dosing her ?

Mainly I don't think a guy who is at war with your people just killed men you knew your whole life turns most women on. Robb was wounded and her captor she should hate him not bed him.

[John Suburbs]

10 hours ago, TPTWP Timett said:

Mainly I don't think a guy who is at war with your people just killed men you knew your whole life turns most women on. Robb was wounded and her captor she should hate him not bed him.

Very true. There was something about a household knight that she had known all her life who was killed in the fight.

[Eternally_Theirs]

But what was their plan? Were they stringing him along like a pig to slaughter or was there something more to it?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 2/12/2020 at 1:11 PM, John Suburbs said:

So Tywin and Sybelle are plotting to bring down the King in the North just on the vague hope that Robb will fall for Jeyne, whom everybody agrees is moderately pretty but not someone to give up a crown for? It's more reasonable to you that this whole thing is the product of an incredible stroke of luck rather than Sybelle using all the tools at her disposal to ensure that things turned out this way

Yeah this strikes me as very unusual. Tywin & Sybelle banking on a guy that is presumably extremely honorable & keeps his word, raised by the extremely honorable Ned, breaking his word & tarnishing his honor? It seems a very flimsy thing to count on & there is every reason to believe it wouldn't happen. 

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

Mind control drugs and witches' spells would remove some of the agency from Robb Stark.  I don't think he lost control.  He did what he did because he was a selfish man who had no trouble accepting help from the Freys but could not make himself pay them back.  He maybe figured he could get away with it.  

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Chariots of the Gods said:

Mind control drugs and witches' spells would remove some of the agency from Robb Stark.  I don't think he lost control.  He did what he did because he was a selfish man who had no trouble accepting help from the Freys but could not make himself pay them back.  He maybe figured he could get away with it.  

This is why I think Robb was only tipped over the edge - 100% drugged makes him a non-character in that instance and ultimately flattens the rest of his arc. His end at the Red Wedding loses a lot significance if Robb wasn't significantly responsible for his own situation. It creates one of those murky and debatable situations with no clear answers which are so common in the books. Some drugging (not mind control) can make a character more dynamic because it removes veils of inhibition and can reveal the true character beneath kinda like how we say and do things we'd never do when drunk but we are still ourselves nonetheless.

 

[John Suburbs]

13 hours ago, Chariots of the Gods said:

Mind control drugs and witches' spells would remove some of the agency from Robb Stark.  I don't think he lost control.  He did what he did because he was a selfish man who had no trouble accepting help from the Freys but could not make himself pay them back.  He maybe figured he could get away with it.  

Where do you get such a negative "agency" for Robb? When has he ever acted selfishly or gone back on his word.

 

10 hours ago, Lollygag said:

This is why I think Robb was only tipped over the edge - 100% drugged makes him a non-character in that instance and ultimately flattens the rest of his arc. His end at the Red Wedding loses a lot significance if Robb wasn't significantly responsible for his own situation. It creates one of those murky and debatable situations with no clear answers which are so common in the books. Some drugging (not mind control) can make a character more dynamic because it removes veils of inhibition and can reveal the true character beneath kinda like how we say and do things we'd never do when drunk but we are still ourselves nonetheless.

 

The love potion turns Robb into a classic tragic figure who tried to do what was right but was brought down by forces beyond his control. It brings more significance to his end at the RW because he becomes a man who fell prey to a Machiavellian mastermind, not his own character flaws. In the end, we have even greater sympathy for Robb considering he died twice at the RW, and even more hatred for Tywin and Sybelle.

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah this strikes me as very unusual. Tywin & Sybelle banking on a guy that is presumably extremely honorable & keeps his word, raised by the extremely honorable Ned, breaking his word & tarnishing his honor? It seems a very flimsy thing to count on & there is every reason to believe it wouldn't happen. 

Especially since Tywin states flat out: "Robb Stark is his father's son."

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Especially since Tywin states flat out: "Robb Stark is his father's son."

Right. I think if you accept Sybelle & Tywin were plotting before the marriage, & I do, I think you have to accept that there is more to it than what meets the eye. 

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

The love potion turns Robb into a classic tragic figure who tried to do what was right but was brought down by forces beyond his control. It brings more significance to his end at the RW because he becomes a man who fell prey to a Machiavellian mastermind, not his own character flaws. In the end, we have even greater sympathy for Robb considering he died twice at the RW, and even more hatred for Tywin and Sybelle.

Don't at all buy that none of the responsibility is on Robb. Falling to a Machiavellian mastermind is predictable and expected and was already laid out from the start with Tywin vs Robb. Falling to the mastermind because of his own flaws when he was in such an unexpectedly strong position is interesting.

I think Robb was manipulated, but only enough to push him over the edge where he had already put himself not unlike what we see with other characters. GRRM has people fall to others as a result of their own flaws and blindness. Almost to a one.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

think Robb was manipulated, but only enough to push him over the edge where he had already put himself not unlike what we see with other characters. GRRM has people fall to others as a result of their own flaws and blindness. Almost to a one.

By what means do you think Robb was manipulated if not by the means John Suburbs asserts? 

[Lollygag]

7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

By what means do you think Robb was manipulated if not by the means John Suburbs asserts? 

I agree that he was drugged to some degree but my issue is more about degrees of influence. Robb ending up marrying Jeyne and falling in the RW and having no responsibility for any of that isn't consistent with the treatment of characters in ASOIAF. They all own some significant responsibility for their choices. We saw at the Twins that Robb really, really, really didn't want to marry one of Walder's daughters and then he turns up with a different wife, so it looks much more likely that Robb was only drugged enough to do what he already desperately wanted to do despite it being a terrible idea.

[teej6]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Especially since Tywin states flat out: "Robb Stark is his father's son."

Exactly my point. Robb is his father’s son and if he dishonors a girl, he will do the honorable thing and marry her. That’s what I get from Tywin’s statement. As I said, I don’t doubt Tywin and Sybell had an agreement. Robb spend some time in the Crag recuperating. It is more likely that during this time, Tywin and Sybell planned for Jeyne to nurse Robb and hoped that the emotionally and physically injured Robb would find Jeyne attractive and stumble, which he did. Tywin also knew if this were to happen, Robb being his father’s son would do the honorable thing and marry Jeyne. Love potions is a bit much for me. Like a poster above said, it removes all agency from Robb’s actions.

Here’s the Tywin/ Tyrion conversation. Tywin was hoping Robb would deflower Jeyne and do the honorable thing and marry her since he was his father’s son:

Quote

“I am surprised,” Tyrion had to confess. “I thought Robb Stark had better sense.” “He is a boy of sixteen,” said Lord Tywin. “At that age, sense weighs for little, against lust and love and honor.” “He forswore himself, shamed an ally, betrayed a solemn promise. Where is the honor in that?” Ser Kevan answered. “He chose the girl’s honor over his own. Once he had deflowered her, he had no other course.” “It would have been kinder to leave her with a bastard in her belly,” said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts. “Jeyne Westerling is her mother’s daughter,” said Lord Tywin, “and Robb Stark is his father’s son.”

And as to your argument that Robb grew cold with Jeyne, I provided you samples of the text proving otherwise. Robb bidding farewell to his wife three times on the same day is not an indication of coldness but rather love and affection. And the passage you quoted proves only that Robb was troubled and had much on his mind — he had lost WF, his brothers, the Frey army, and the Karstarks. 

The other argument that makes the love potion theory unlikely is that Jeyne was truly in love with Robb. If the whole thing was a charade, no need for her to keep up the act after Robb’s death. But Jaime observers that’s she’s visibly upset and mourning the death of her husband. Unless, you are arguing that Jeyne fell in love with a man who wasn’t in love with her and continues to mourn him despite knowing that he never actually loved her. I find that a bit of a stretch.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

26 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I agree that he was drugged to some degree but my issue is more about degrees of influence. Robb ending up marrying Jeyne and falling in the RW and having no responsibility for any of that isn't consistent with the treatment of characters in ASOIAF. They all own some significant responsibility for their choices. We saw at the Twins that Robb really, really, really didn't want to marry one of Walder's daughters and then he turns up with a different wife, so it looks much more likely that Robb was only drugged enough to do what he already desperately wanted to do despite it being a terrible idea.

I dont recall him really, really, really didn't want to marry one of Walders daughters but I haven't read that part in a while. 

I understand what you are saying in regards to responsibility but if you agree he was drugged what responsibility would he own for that?