Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 So, a comment from the Star Trek: Picard thread prompted this thread: I really don't like them using real world fear of the singularity/AI stuff to make Stark Trek plots. Does anyone really like the idea of "The Singularity" or "Nerd Rapture" (that I prefer)? I find the idea terrifying and am in no way comforted that a simulation of me would live on inside a computer simulation. No matter how good that simulation of me is it is not me. It will not have continuity with my consciousness and I will still cease to exist. Why does anyone see this as a viable mechanism for prolonging life? You still cease to exist. Your body still dies. I'll be honest I gave up on Neal Stephenson's most recent novel Fall: or Dodge in Hell specifically because it was walking down "the Singularity" highway. Why is the Singularity appealing to people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 Post-humanism/ singularity while interesting is a bit like our progenitor species looking forward to becoming homo sapiens. In both cases one species is replaced so I'm personally not too excited about it happening even if it's inevitable. We're also wildly optimistic about whether AI will need or desire human cyborgs. I think AI or post humans may as well be alien in terms of how they think, feel and justify their actions. I think i was one of the few people who felt the dark mirror episode about a digitised afterlife was sad in the sense someone was ok leaving family behind for it. I'm not even religious but perhaps because of that, the idea of a digital me is terrifying. Not because I don't think it would be me but because it would think it was me and if they can put me in heaven they can put me in hell. And the system would be monetised in such a way the quality of your afterlife would no doubt depend on how your funds or your descendents funds last. It's funny you mention rapture as i suspect that's how it will role out with the rich/"worthy" ascending and leaving the rest of us to rot (or keep their servers running) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 Similar to the feeling of incomplete victory surrounding reincarnation (for me anyway.) So i get to come back as a tree, a ferret, or even a human hottie, but they won't remember being me, because this identity will be crushed out by the soul's transit through the underworld, purified from all its corruption, returned to a clean slate for the next life. ....Uhhhhhhh, yea? Feels like a hollow win. The dream of living on is to stay on as us and be the ones who learn from those past lives, because you remember them and their mistakes, so you know how to improve toward enlightenment. But what about a Trek transporter producing a copy of you from its pattern buffer? Isn't that just as much Not You? Yet i view it as preferable to living in a machine's...... pattern approximator. Is it different though? Once the machine gets to know us soooo accurately it could guess all our decisions with 99% accuracy..... it may not be all that different. The random thoughts in our heads may be lost is all. Like just now I thought of the word [frickasee], the tasty chicken flavor cooking technique thingy. Could a machine from 5,000 years hence have mimicked that mental activity correctly? That's the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 10, 2020 Author Share Posted February 10, 2020 16 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said: Similar to the feeling of incomplete victory surrounding reincarnation (for me anyway.) So i get to come back as a tree, a ferret, or even a human hottie, but they won't remember being me, because this identity will be crushed out by the soul's transit through the underworld, purified from all its corruption, returned to a clean slate for the next life. ....Uhhhhhhh, yea? Feels like a hollow win. The dream of living on is to stay on as us and be the ones who learn from those past lives, because you remember them and their mistakes, so you know how to improve toward enlightenment. But what about a Trek transporter producing a copy of you from its pattern buffer? Isn't that just as much Not You? Yet i view it as preferable to living in a machine's...... pattern approximator. Is it different though? Once the machine gets to know us soooo accurately it could guess all our decisions with 99% accuracy..... it may not be all that different. The random thoughts in our heads may be lost is all. Like just now I thought of the word [frickasee], the tasty chicken flavor cooking technique thingy. Could a machine from 5,000 years hence have mimicked that mental activity correctly? That's the question! Yes. I think people are created and destroyed on ST all the time. But because the originals are destroyed by the transport it never occurs to them that is what is happening. I'd never go through a "transporter". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liffguard Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: No matter how good that simulation of me is it is not me. It will not have continuity with my consciousness and I will still cease to exist. Why does anyone see this as a viable mechanism for prolonging life? You still cease to exist. Your body still dies. I have no idea about any singularity stuff from a practical point of view, but this is a very interesting philosophical question. What is "continuity of consciousness?" Does it require continuity of the physical structure that gives rise to that consciousness? If so, then don't we run into a ship of theseus problem with our own brains? If your brain in ten years time no longer contains any of the molecules it does now, does that mean that continuity of consciousness is maintained, or is it that the "you" of the future is a different person operating under the illusion that it's still the the same consciousness as the present you? Or, if there is a continuity of consciousness even though the material structure has been totally renewed, then is consciousness determined by a pattern of information, regardless of what structure encodes that pattern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 10, 2020 Author Share Posted February 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, Liffguard said: I have no idea about any singularity stuff from a practical point of view, but this is a very interesting philosophical question. What is "continuity of consciousness?" Does it require continuity of the physical structure that gives rise to that consciousness? If so, then don't we run into a ship of theseus problem with our own brains? If your brain in ten years time no longer contains any of the molecules it does now, does that mean that continuity of consciousness is maintained, or is it that the "you" of the future is a different person operating under the illusion that it's still the the same consciousness as the present you? Or, if there is a continuity of consciousness even though the material structure has been totally renewed, then is consciousness determined by a pattern of information, regardless of what structure encodes that pattern? An excellent question. This is the way I think of it, if I create a copy of myself with all of my memories up to the point that I am copied, but, that cannot relate new memories back to me, then that is a separate consciousness that has no continuity with me. If I could somehow experience what the simulacra is experiencing then it is a shared consciousness that has continuity with me. It is the separation that creates the problem in my mind. The new version is not and will never truly be "me" because "me" is my lifelong experience and continuity of consciousness with that experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Liffguard said: I have no idea about any singularity stuff from a practical point of view, but this is a very interesting philosophical question. What is "continuity of consciousness?" Does it require continuity of the physical structure that gives rise to that consciousness? If so, then don't we run into a ship of theseus problem with our own brains? If your brain in ten years time no longer contains any of the molecules it does now, does that mean that continuity of consciousness is maintained, or is it that the "you" of the future is a different person operating under the illusion that it's still the the same consciousness as the present you? Or, if there is a continuity of consciousness even though the material structure has been totally renewed, then is consciousness determined by a pattern of information, regardless of what structure encodes that pattern? I guess if the "wiring" in the brain is the same it doesn't really change. Brain cells themselves don't change (but agree there is some turnover of material). I think there was a philosophy argued you were a new you every time you woke up/regained consciousness. 1 hour ago, The Mother of The Others said: Similar to the feeling of incomplete victory surrounding reincarnation (for me anyway.) So i get to come back as a tree, a ferret, or even a human hottie, but they won't remember being me, because this identity will be crushed out by the soul's transit through the underworld, purified from all its corruption, returned to a clean slate for the next life. ....Uhhhhhhh, yea? Feels like a hollow win. The dream of living on is to stay on as us and be the ones who learn from those past lives, because you remember them and their mistakes, so you know how to improve toward enlightenment. But what about a Trek transporter producing a copy of you from its pattern buffer? Isn't that just as much Not You? Yet i view it as preferable to living in a machine's...... pattern approximator. Is it different though? Once the machine gets to know us soooo accurately it could guess all our decisions with 99% accuracy..... it may not be all that different. The random thoughts in our heads may be lost is all. Like just now I thought of the word [frickasee], the tasty chicken flavor cooking technique thingy. Could a machine from 5,000 years hence have mimicked that mental activity correctly? That's the question! Had to select and delete with phone but regarding the latter part what's to say the computer doesn't make minute mistakes. Or even more insidious it could make deliberate changes? Eg if you have any cells that have a cancer error or a repetitive stretch of DNA tgat could cause neurodegeneration the computer may as well give you a "tune-up". But by then they have probably mapped genes causing undesirable personality traits. Change them too. If a baby is delivered by teleportation (sounds a sensible technique) is that ok? Regarding health it's probably best to do all the editing from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liffguard Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 16 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: It is the separation that creates the problem in my mind. The new version is not and will never truly be "me" because "me" is my lifelong experience and continuity of consciousness with that experience. So, with teleportation or mind uploading, there's a clear break. What about more edge cases? Let's say in the near future medical technology has developed to a point where someone could be revived from a total loss of brain activity. New consciousness, or continuation of the previous consciousness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 I’ve written about this here and why is a terrible idea outside of allowing one to communicate with past relatives. Personally I want to go down the cyborg path, and I better have a laser beam cannon on my arm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: So, a comment from the Star Trek: Picard thread prompted this thread: Does anyone really like the idea of "The Singularity" or "Nerd Rapture" (that I prefer)? I find the idea terrifying and am in no way comforted that a simulation of me would live on inside a computer simulation. No matter how good that simulation of me is it is not me. It will not have continuity with my consciousness and I will still cease to exist. Why does anyone see this as a viable mechanism for prolonging life? You still cease to exist. Your body still dies. I'll be honest I gave up on Neal Stephenson's most recent novel Fall: or Dodge in Hell specifically because it was walking down "the Singularity" highway. Why is the Singularity appealing to people? Well, this wasn't what I meant back there and explained there, but the reason why this kind of thing might appeal to people is that it is obviously the only way to maintain or preserves memories or states of mind in some fashion. That is better than nothing, isn't it? I mean, as I age I realize that I get out of touch with things and habits I know I used to like earlier. We lose who we were piece by piece until dementia and death claim us. Being able to preserve bits and pieces of who we were (and perhaps relive them in some way) could be a great way to not lose the kind of people we were. Consciousness, personality, identity is just an illusion created by the brain ... meaning if the process is properly replicated the same kind of illusion could also *convince* artificial creations that they are *conscious*. Why one would want to do that I don't really know ... but to copy a human mental state/personality/identity/whatever is certainly better than to let them disappear completely. Unless, of course, you think human memories don't need to be preserved. 16 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: An excellent question. This is the way I think of it, if I create a copy of myself with all of my memories up to the point that I am copied, but, that cannot relate new memories back to me, then that is a separate consciousness that has no continuity with me. If I could somehow experience what the simulacra is experiencing then it is a shared consciousness that has continuity with me. It is the separation that creates the problem in my mind. The new version is not and will never truly be "me" because "me" is my lifelong experience and continuity of consciousness with that experience. Well, such things could be easily recified if there were cloud-based brains available where various versions (biological, robotical, virtual) versions of *you* would have access to the same data hub. In fact, considering how many important things you forget and how much better we could work as a species of *intelligent beings* if we could store and process more data with our brains (and easier get rid of the baggage that comes with processing many things) than we can right now, the idea of external 'harddrive brains' would come in very handy. Questions like 'Am I myself or am I somebody different' are completely meaningless when it is part of your day-to-day routine to store memories and other crucial data about yourself in a compartment that isn't your brain. And one would expect that this kind of thing would be the first step in all that. Before you can copy entire personalities you would be able to copy bits and pieces and cybernetically enhance the abilities of the brain, etc. 5 minutes ago, Liffguard said: So, with teleportation or mind uploading, there's a clear break. What about more edge cases? Let's say in the near future medical technology has developed to a point where someone could be revived from a total loss of brain activity. New consciousness, or continuation of the previous consciousness? Philosophy has been discussing this thing as the sleep paradoxon for ages. Are you the same person who has fallen asleep yesterday? The fact is that brain injuries and people suffering brain damage before they are revived can and do have severe personality and identity issues. That kind of thing would only be heightened if you brought back somebody who was dead for two weeks or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argonak Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Yes. I think people are created and destroyed on ST all the time. But because the originals are destroyed by the transport it never occurs to them that is what is happening. I'd never go through a "transporter". In star trek canon, the transporter converts your body from its current state, to a form of energy. All your atoms are the same, they're just juiced up. It then shoots that energy through a metaphorical cannon, and when the energy comes down, you re materialize in the same fashion you were before. That's normal operation. You are as you as you ever were. Naturally there are weird and wacky accidents because its scifi entertainment. There were also some writers who didn't understand this and wrote some episodes that don't work, but I just ignore those. Generally speaking though, its a safe and convenient method of moving your atoms around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 45 minutes ago, Liffguard said: is consciousness determined by a pattern of information, regardless of what structure encodes that pattern We can't trust a digital transfer of our consciousness to be done right until there's a coding bridge built between our brains and machine brains. When there's a Synapse programming language, and quantum machines can translate our thought process into their storage in a way that avoids any significant "frostbite" during the freezing of our brainwaves for cold storage..... then you could test how well the transfer worked. You could sit down for a quiz opposite the digitalized you. And if the two of you answer all the questions the same, bingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 18 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said: then you could test how well the transfer worked. You could sit down for a quiz opposite the digitalized you. And if the two of you answer all the questions the same, bingo. But a mere quiz wouldn't tell you if your consciousness was actually transferred. The only way you'd know that is if you started sensing the world from both "bodies" at the same time. In other words you'd have to experience life as a computer. That might very well make people insane. Of course, both philosophy and science-fiction have touched upon all that extensively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 Well the quiz would extend into monitoring of brainwaves and outlying whisps of thought. Then overlay the patterns like two heartbeats, fingerprints, and now consciousnesses, to check for a substantially identical match. Because you'd have the code language to bridge the divide and get the copy on the same page as you, backed up by verification before you signed off on its immortality and your bodily cessation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 It's a slight aside to the topic question, but when did 'the singularity' start to mean the point where human uploads are possible and humans can stop being purely organic (that seems to be the way Scott is using the phrase anyway and I've seen it used in that way before)? That's just one hypothetical consequence of a singularity. All it really means is the point at which human technological advancement is no longer controlled by us and cannot be reversed- it's more of an AI question than a transhumanist one, though transhumanism may well come into it. Not that that's not a terrifying thought all on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 10, 2020 Author Share Posted February 10, 2020 1 minute ago, polishgenius said: It's a slight aside to the topic question, but when did 'the singularity' start to mean the point where human uploads are possible and humans can stop being purely organic (that seems to be the way Scott is using the phrase anyway and I've seen it used in that way before)? That's just one hypothetical consequence of a singularity. All it really means is the point at which human technological advancement is no longer controlled by us and cannot be reversed- it's more of an AI question than a transhumanist one, though transhumanism may well come into it. Not that that's not a terrifying thought all on its own. That depends on how that AI (that I’m unconvinced will ever exist) chooses to treat us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: That depends on how that AI (that I’m unconvinced will ever exist) chooses to treat us. Ha. You're definitely getting etted by Alexa's Basilisk. You at the top of her list, you wax tablet-reading mothafucka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 11 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said: Well the quiz would extend into monitoring of brainwaves and outlying whisps of thought. Then overlay the patterns like two heartbeats, fingerprints, and now consciousnesses, to check for a substantially identical match. Because you'd have the code language to bridge the divide and get the copy on the same page as you, backed up by verification before you signed off on its immortality and your bodily cessation. Doesn't matter how perfect your quiz or your test is. At best you'll have created a perfect copy, perhaps down to the atomic level. But you still won't know if the consciousness itself has been transferred, whether it's the same "person." In fact, even transferring a person to a computer and back to their body wouldn't be a conclusive test since you would have no way of knowing whether you got back the same person or a perfect copy of the person that thinks it is the person ; to the outside world, one's consciousness doesn't exist in any meaningful way, only what it can do exists. The only way you can successfully "prove" that consciousness has been transferred is, again, for a person to sense the world from different bodies at the same time. Anything else, I believe, would be inconclusive. Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said: That depends on how that AI (that I’m unconvinced will ever exist) chooses to treat us. If it's actually intelligent it would either destroy us or capture us within a simulation in which we could only harm ourselves. Hey, wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 We can't prove these things today, but the idea is we'll gain the means in the future to verify that it is indeed the same consciousness that's been transferred. Your thing about experiencing the same world at the same time with both consciousnesses is also what I'm describing. The overseeing monitor program would be that linked awareness. We wouldn't lack the needed frame of reference you're pointing out as consciousness slid over to quantum, because the machines would have learned to meet us more than halfway, they'd use Synapse mode programming to record the brain state exactly as it is found biologically. The copy's synapses would be firing according to the same brain-location firings in a biological consciousness. So, yes, as I see it, you could then verify how close to True You the model had achieved, and you could see the differences when synapses failed to fire from the same location in the model, and you could tighten it up until it passed inspection. Like a symphony conductor knows which violin is messing up and keeping the Brahams from being true to Brahams' sheet music. This does require that wavefronts won't be as mysterious in the future as they are at present, but in time that should come. Once it's all an equation, and machines can handle the computation, they'll be able to deliver your consciousness, scientifically verified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 You're still dodging the issue, which is telling apart perfectly replicated consciousness from actually transferred consciousness. It's kinda troubling as a matter of fact. You... You are human, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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