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Mlle. Zabzie

US Politics - Primary Numbers

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3 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

I get the Bloomberg issues, but what in the world has Sanders done that wasn't so good (or even comparable) in this discussion? Bernie absolutely has a long history, and it's consistently the antithesis of Trump and Bloomberg.

What has Warren done that wasn't so good in this discussion? Warren has a long history and it's consistently the antithesis of Trump and Bloomberg.

...waiting for the "long history" dig against someone who has been involved in politics for 25+ years too. (As an antithesis to Biden's bankruptcy bill as a crony to Finance special interests)

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14 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Hey. Jimmy Carter famously said he had looked on a lot of women with lust and committed adultery in his heart. People do have all kinds of thoughts in their heads.

Not about Trump, though.  :stillsick:

That just suggests he was overly harsh on himself. Besides life is a lot more fun when you run with the :devil:

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3 minutes ago, Week said:

What has Warren done that wasn't so good in this discussion? Warren has a long history and it's consistently the antithesis of Trump and Bloomberg.

...waiting for the "long history" dig against someone who has been involved in politics for 25+ years too. (As an antithesis to Biden's bankruptcy bill as a crony to Finance special interests)

What does Warren have to do with the post I responded to? The poster suggested that Sanders and Bloomberg had both done bad things and were old and had long histories. So why are you bringing up Warren? The point was that whatever you want to say about Sanders, he doesn't have a history of racist misogyny. Some people assume he does, I guess, but the worst you can say about him is that he might have a race blind spot (though that's debatable). 

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1 minute ago, Simon Steele said:

What does Warren have to do with the post I responded to? The poster suggested that Sanders and Bloomberg had both done bad things and were old and had long histories. So why are you bringing up Warren? The point was that whatever you want to say about Sanders, he doesn't have a history of racist misogyny. Some people assume he does, I guess, but the worst you can say about him is that he might have a race blind spot (though that's debatable). 

Look, he has evolved as best I can tell, over the past 40 years on the following topics:  race, LGBTQ issues, women's issues, immigration, education, etc.  And you know what, that's fine.  I'm NOT a Sanders true believer (and I know you are, and that's fine).  I'll vote for him only if I have to.  But he's certainly better than the alternative.  And I'm not going to cancel someone for things they did or said when I was in kindergarten or before I was born (actually, I'm loath to cancel people period, because I think it's a stupid and shallow way to view the human experience and people, but that's a separate question).*

 

*Mind you, the GOP is cancelled :lol:

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8 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

I get the Bloomberg issues, but what in the world has Sanders done that wasn't so good (or even comparable) in this discussion? Bernie absolutely has a long history, and it's consistently the antithesis of Trump and Bloomberg.

The charge of being sexist has always followed him. His supporters always answer back by saying "look at the great things he will do for women, he's not sexist, he's anti-sexist!" But a politician can support good things while being a sexist old fart as well. I have worked for numerous men in my life who supported the rights of women while treating the women they worked with as lesser creatures with fewer rights and privileges than men.

In his life he's said a lot of nice things about Cuba and the Soviet way of doing things, which always seems unforgivable to chunks of American society.

There's his whole Lone Ranger image , something Bernie supporters always deny as well. But he was an independent because he wasn't going to be run by the Democrats, and while he filed as a Democratic candidate for President this time (not the last time), the next week he filed for re-election as senator as an independent. Trump is such an asshole he has managed to instill fear in the Republican party and has everyone in line. Will President Sanders instill fear in Democrats and whip their asses if they don't obey?

But no question he doesn't have the same kind of baggage others do. 

 

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28 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

I get the Bloomberg issues, but what in the world has Sanders done that wasn't so good (or even comparable) in this discussion? Bernie absolutely has a long history, and it's consistently the antithesis of Trump and Bloomberg.

... you do realize that Zabz is a center right Never Trumper? According to her preferences and stances Bernie should be the last person she’d ever want to pick. Anyone who is a Bernie supporter should be dancing in the streets that she and others like her are willing to consider voting for him.

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9 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Look, he has evolved as best I can tell, over the past 40 years on the following topics:  race, LGBTQ issues, women's issues, immigration, education, etc.  And you know what, that's fine.  I'm NOT a Sanders true believer (and I know you are, and that's fine).  I'll vote for him only if I have to.  But he's certainly better than the alternative.  And I'm not going to cancel someone for things they did or said when I was in kindergarten or before I was born (actually, I'm loath to cancel people period, because I think it's a stupid and shallow way to view the human experience and people, but that's a separate question).*

 

*Mind you, the GOP is cancelled :lol:

I don't mean to be pushy, my apologies. We can agree on the GOP.

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Lol, speaking of Stormy Daniels...

Michael Avenatti found guilty of extortion on all counts, for trying to shake down Nike for $25M. In New York.

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12 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

The charge of being sexist has always followed him. His supporters always answer back by saying "look at the great things he will do for women, he's not sexist, he's anti-sexist!" But a politician can support good things while being a sexist old fart as well. I have worked for numerous men in my life who supported the rights of women while treating the women they worked with as lesser creatures with fewer rights and privileges than men.

In his life he's said a lot of nice things about Cuba and the Soviet way of doing things, which always seems unforgivable to chunks of American society.

There's his whole Lone Ranger image , something Bernie supporters always deny as well. But he was an independent because he wasn't going to be run by the Democrats, and while he filed as a Democratic candidate for President this time (not the last time), the next week he filed for re-election as senator as an independent. Trump is such an asshole he has managed to instill fear in the Republican party and has everyone in line. Will President Sanders instill fear in Democrats and whip their asses if they don't obey?

But no question he doesn't have the same kind of baggage others do. 

 

I guess I've only heard that charge from the Clinton camp, but I've never seen any evidence of it, and certainly not to the point of being uttered in the same breath as some of the others. 

6 minutes ago, Paladin of Ice said:

... you do realize that Zabz is a center right Never Trumper? According to her preferences and stances Bernie should be the last person she’d ever want to pick. Anyone who is a Bernie supporter should be dancing in the streets that she and others like her are willing to consider voting for him.

That has nothing to do with it. I don't get the comparison. This isn't a "oh we like might vote for the same dude? Cool." If the point is that he's a socialist for someone center right and to them, that's as bed as misogyny and racism, I guess I get it. But I'm truly curious about specifics on Bernie's issue with women and people of color.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Bernie gets elected. He's my candidate this time, and he's the closest to my values, but I have a better chance of becoming one of the oligarchs than we do of actually overthrowing them. 

Edited by Simon Steele

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7 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

I guess I've only heard that charge from the Clinton camp, but I've never seen any evidence of it, and certainly not to the point of being uttered in the same breath as some of the others. 

That has nothing to do with it. I don't get the comparison. This isn't a "oh we like might vote for the same dude? Cool." If the point is that he's a socialist for someone center right and to them, that's as bed as misogyny and racism, I guess I get it. But I'm truly curious about specifics on Bernie's issue with women and people of color.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Bernie gets elected. He's my candidate this time, and he's the closest to my values, but I have a better chance of becoming one of the oligarchs than we do of actually overthrowing them. 

I have no difficulty believing the stories about Sanders, because I'm 65 years old and he's 12 years older than me. I spent my whole life dealing with the older generation and the way they dealt with women, paying us less, skipping us over for promotion because the guy in the office has a family to look after, making inappropriate comments and inappropriate touching.

His 2015 campaign was full of stories about women being outraged to find out they were being paid thousands less than men were being paid. In 20-fucking-15, not 1978. There were also stories about sexual harassment not being taken seriously. Did Sanders personally do these things? Not that I know of, but he was the leader. He said he had no knowledge of any of this, because, ya know, he was busy (that's what he actually said). But he has been in politics for 29 years and has run many campaigns. What, he has never had basic rules in his campaign? Were women always underpaid? Was sexual harassment a daily feature? Did this suddenly happen out of the blue in 2015?

Women are supposed to just stand back and say, same old, same old, we're used to it, Bernie is soooo wonderful! So minor compared to the stuff the other guys are doing!

Like Zabz said, everyone has issues.

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6 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

I don't mean to be pushy, my apologies. We can agree on the GOP.

:)  Good to find common ground!  It is true though that I am probably center-right.  Interestingly enough, I think I agree with a lot of you on the issues that this country faces, and also about thinking that the issues are urgent. 

  • Climate change
  • Health care (I've come around on single-payer; don't think I'll ever get to single provider, but that's another story)
  • Education (but I don't believe in free college for all.  I DO however believe in "Free-K" (i.e., free education starting at age 3; and honestly, I'd back a European style creche system).

I don't trust government to be the solution as much as a lot of you all seem to because the impermanence that this creates as a result of our system of government (and, current administration is a QED I told you so moment, but I digress).  That said, I'm not a "free marketer" (that's magical thinking and just dumb) either.  So, (i) I believe that the government needs to provide some solutions to these problems, (ii) I believe in the concept of "public goods" for which the public should pay for with tax money, but (iii) just like I don't believe that there is no such think as a public good, nor do I believe that everything can be solved merely by government intervention and that a lot of the things being proposed by the left ALSO include a lot of magical thinking.    I have some weird out-there views on open borders and also on privacy.  I believe in personal responsibility and accountability.  I think family, relationships and community are important and should be supported, but my definitions of each are broad and expansive.  I believe in self-determination.  I am not a moral relativist.  I have highly informed and technical views about tax policy about which I will bore you all.

And so the GOP has lost me.  It is unethical, thinks only in the short term, opposes individual rights again and again (unless they are religious, which is BS), is for closed borders, doesn't care about privacy, is doing active harm to the environment, has no plan on health care, and has less than no plan on education (I don't count vouchers - all it's doing is involving government in religious education which is so insidious and bad, I can't even believe it).  But the Democratic party only has me because the alternative is SO BAD.  I realize there aren't many 'mes' that exist (though there is a decent contingent on the board (hi @Ser Scot A Ellison @Ormond @Mudguard).  That's ok.  I'm ok being quirky, and I'm also ok and non-threatened by lots of other points of view.  I've learned a lot of stuff and evolved myself over the years!

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3 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I am not a moral relativist. 

I consider myself left of center and moral relativism is something that I dislike, along with some of the other epistemological confusion that goes on the left, that in my opinion needs to be fought against and doesn't serve left wing interest.
I get the impulse for moral relativism, as it provides an argument for respect for other people's personal choices, and in the view of some, provides an argument against intervening in other societies.
That said, a moral relativist stance works against progressive interest and often makes the left looked confused and hypocritical.

Edited by OldGimletEye

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7 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

:)  Good to find common ground!  It is true though that I am probably center-right.  Interestingly enough, I think I agree with a lot of you on the issues that this country faces, and also about thinking that the issues are urgent. 

  • Climate change
  • Health care (I've come around on single-payer; don't think I'll ever get to single provider, but that's another story)
  • Education (but I don't believe in free college for all.  I DO however believe in "Free-K" (i.e., free education starting at age 3; and honestly, I'd back a European style creche system).

I don't trust government to be the solution as much as a lot of you all seem to because the impermanence that this creates as a result of our system of government (and, current administration is a QED I told you so moment, but I digress).  That said, I'm not a "free marketer" (that's magical thinking and just dumb) either.  So, (i) I believe that the government needs to provide some solutions to these problems, (ii) I believe in the concept of "public goods" for which the public should pay for with tax money, but (iii) just like I don't believe that there is no such think as a public good, nor do I believe that everything can be solved merely by government intervention and that a lot of the things being proposed by the left ALSO include a lot of magical thinking.    I have some weird out-there views on open borders and also on privacy.  I believe in personal responsibility and accountability.  I think family, relationships and community are important and should be supported, but my definitions of each are broad and expansive.  I believe in self-determination.  I am not a moral relativist.  I have highly informed and technical views about tax policy about which I will bore you all.

And so the GOP has lost me.  It is unethical, thinks only in the short term, opposes individual rights again and again (unless they are religious, which is BS), is for closed borders, doesn't care about privacy, is doing active harm to the environment, has no plan on health care, and has less than no plan on education (I don't count vouchers - all it's doing is involving government in religious education which is so insidious and bad, I can't even believe it).  But the Democratic party only has me because the alternative is SO BAD.  I realize there aren't many 'mes' that exist (though there is a decent contingent on the board (hi @Ser Scot A Ellison @Ormond @Mudguard).  That's ok.  I'm ok being quirky, and I'm also ok and non-threatened by lots of other points of view.  I've learned a lot of stuff and evolved myself over the years!

Wow i dont get how that could be characterized as center-right, like damn, (you are for open borders?,) in my country, you would be considered a  communist (like, not even joking). Im in shock. 

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31 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Lol, speaking of Stormy Daniels...

Michael Avenatti found guilty of extortion on all counts, for trying to shake down Nike for $25M. In New York.

Sources report to having heard him repeatedly mumbling, 'basta'  as he was led out of the courtroom.

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2 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I consider myself left of center and moral relativism is something I that I dislike, along with some of the other epistemological confusion that goes on the left, that in my opinion needs to be fought against and doesn't serve left wing interest.
I get the impulse to for moral relativism, as it provides an argument for respect for other people's personal choices, and in the view of some, provides an argument against intervening in other societies.
That said, a moral relativist stance works against progressive interest and often makes the left looked confused and hypocritical.

Indeed, i consider myself far left (anarchist), but i aslo think moral relativism is "problematic". 

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a minor Medicaid defeat for Trump...at least until the Supreme Court weighs in...and even then he might lose...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/trump-backed-work-for-medicaid-plan-is-rejected-on-appeal/ar-BB100y1G?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=msnclassic

The Trump administration’s legal bid to restore a work requirement for Medicaid benefits in Arkansas was rejected on appeal, a blow to the government’s larger effort to reshape U.S. health-care policy.

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Legal push back against Trump on the McCabe mess...

 

 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/justice-dept-wont-charge-andrew-mccabe-the-former-fbi-official-who-authorized-the-investigation-of-president-trump/ar-BB100rHv?ocid=msnclassic

 

The Justice Department will not charge former acting FBI director Andrew McCabe with lying to investigators about a media disclosure, according to people familiar with the matter and McCabe’s legal team, ending a long-running inquiry into a top law enforcement official who authorized the bureau to investigate President Trump and soon became the commander in chief’s political punching bag.

 

The department revealed the decision to McCabe’s team Friday; it was unclear whether there were other plans to make it public. The move was said to infuriate Trump, who has raged publicly and privately in recent months that McCabe and others he considers political enemies should be charged with crimes.

 

also looks like the military is unwilling to investigate a certain soldier who incurred Trumps wrath...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/army-wont-investigate-vindman-over-impeachment-testimony-top-leader-says/ar-BB100L9J?ocid=msnclassic

 

The Army will not investigate Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the former National Security Council staffer who testified in the president’s impeachment investigation, the service’s top civilian said Friday.

Trump keeps up his vindictive behavior, it could cost him a tiny slice or two of votes come election day...

 

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Honestly cannot even envision myself voting for Bloomberg for anything.  I sure as hell didn't vote for him for mayor. Not even in this one, because it's not going to improve a damned thing to have him there instead, except he won't be as crazy in behavior in public. He will certainly build rationally upon what bedbug has accomplished.

 

Edited by Zorral

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12 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Honestly cannot even envision myself voting for Bloomberg for anything.  I sure as hell didn't vote for him for mayor. Not even in this one, because it's not going to improve a damned thing to have him there instead, except he won't be as crazy in behavior in public. He will certainly build rationally upon what bedbug has accomplished.

 

Don't vote for him in any primary, but do vote for him in the election if he wins the nomination. He's going to build on what Trump did? Nonsense! Bloomberg is a long time supporter of the environment, will try to bring in gun controls (far harder than anyone else has tried, I bet) and will increase taxes on the wealthy. He won't go as far as Warren said she'd go, but he will increase them. I'll bet he'll restore a helluva a lot of Obama regulations Trump has trashed.

I heard yesterday that Bloomberg has now built an organization larger than the one Obama had when he was elected, and he hasn't even made it to a debate yet, let alone been picked.

But what's important is, if he doesn't win the nomination, that organization will be made available to whoever does win the nomination. Yes, that includes Sanders. Bloomberg has come out with the confirmation he will support whoever wins, even people he has serious policy disagreements with. Whoever wins will have their own organization, but double the coverage in every state ain't gonna hurt. Bloomberg is committed to defeating Trump.

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In policy news, the Pentagon is transferring just under $4b to Homeland Security for an additional 100 plus miles of wall. I guess a xenophobic vanity project is more important than defense, let alone feeding kids in schools and making sure they have books and computer labs…..

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