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Gvido

Differences in Ned's treatment of his daughters

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After killing Lady.

He was walking back to the tower to give himself up to sleep at last when Sandor Clegane and his riders came pounding through the castle gate, back from their hunt.

Ned wanted went to sleep and don't think about Sansa. But when he think that Nimerya is killed he immediately think about Arya and her feelings.

There was something slung over the back of his destrier, a heavy shape wrapped in a bloody cloak. "No sign of your daughter, Hand," the Hound rasped down, "but the day was not wholly wasted. We got her little pet. " He reached back and shoved the burden off, and it fell with a thump in front of Ned.

Bending, Ned pulled back the cloak, dreading the words he would have to find for Arya, but it was not Nymeria after all. 

Edited by Gvido

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"They were all staring at him, but it was Sansa’s look that cut." 

Obviously he was thinking about Arya and how he would tell her about it the very moment he believed Nymeria had been killed, we don't have a stream of consciousnesses of his every thought between Cersei demanding Lady's death and him doing it, there's absolutely no reason to believe he wasn't thinking about Sansa before and during Lady's death.  

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30 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

"They were all staring at him, but it was Sansa’s look that cut." 

Obviously he was thinking about Arya and how he would tell her about it the very moment he believed Nymeria had been killed, we don't have a stream of consciousnesses of his every thought between Cersei demanding Lady's death and him doing it, there's absolutely no reason to believe he wasn't thinking about Sansa before and during Lady's death.  

The only question is, who comforted Sansa when Ned went to sleep?

Edited by Gvido

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39 minutes ago, Gvido said:

The only question is, who comforted Sansa when Ned went to sleep?

I think its obvious that Sansa has people (Jeyne Poole? Septa Mordane? Others?) comforting her already, as this was a planned execution, known in advance.
Ned doesn't feel a need to go and do that afresh for her. Perhaps he should, but also perhaps that would be worse for her. She may be already asleep, or nearly so. (I might be being influenced by the TV scene which was at night IIRC - I have visuals of torches anyway).

The potential Arya situation though is a new situation. Arya isn't being comforted, doesn't know about it. Telling her will be Ned's job first, then he will immediately be there for comforting her.

 

There may also be an element of Sansa the well-armoured-little-lady-in-the-making vs Arya-the-emotive-wild-irresponsible-child. Ned may wrongly feel that Sansa has less direct need of his personal comfort than Arya does.

There may also be an element of unconscious favouritism. Thats a natural thing for any parent in truth. It takes an effort to fight against it sometimes.

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It has nothing to do with him treating the girls differently. It's not like he abandoned Sansa to be alone in her grief. Sansa had Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole. Ned just killed her wolf, maybe Sansa doesn't want him comforting her after he failed at saving Lady.

Ned killed one direwolf and he thinks that Nymeria has been killed as well. I think it's a normal reaction for him to have to wonder how he will break that news to Arya. Someone has to tell her and as her father, that task falls to him.

Arya is the youngest daughter, the one who will say and do things that go counter to whatever she's been taught by her septa. She had been missing for 4 days by the time the scene mentioned in the OP played out. It's not like Ned was planning on checking on her either. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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6 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It has nothing to do with him treating the girls differently. It's not like he abandoned Sansa to be alone in her grief. Sansa had Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole. Ned just killed her wolf, maybe Sansa doesn't want him comforting her after he failed at saving Lady.

Ned killed one direwolf and he thinks that Nymeria has been killed as well. I think it's a normal reaction for him to have to wonder how he will break that news to Arya. Someone has to tell her and as her father, that task falls to him.

Arya is the youngest daughter, the one who will say and do things that go counter to whatever she's been taught by her septa. She had been missing for 4 days by the time the scene mentioned in the OP played out. It's not like Ned was planning on checking on her either. 

Septa probably said that her father did right and Jeyne who is same age as Sansa understand to comfort Sansa? In truth she was left alone to deal with that, if consider that Lady wasn't only her pet but also her soul matter that was horrible, she probably experienced Lady's death. 

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16 hours ago, Gvido said:

The only question is, who comforted Sansa when Ned went to sleep?

In his defense he hadn't been sleeping for four days or something. But I also wish Ned had given Sansa some comfort over killing Lady like he gave to Arya over Mycah and Nymeria and guided her better through her engagement and didn't drag her before robert putting her into the impossible position to chose between her sister and her new family. But he was under a lot of stress in KL

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14 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It has nothing to do with him treating the girls differently. It's not like he abandoned Sansa to be alone in her grief. Sansa had Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole.

Yeah, but Septa Mordane and Jeyne is not the same thing like your father, who could maybe also explain things to you. He didn't have to do it right away, since he hadn't been sleeping, but it had been nice, if he'd done it later. The way he did with Arya as well.

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16 hours ago, Gvido said:

The only question is, who comforted Sansa when Ned went to sleep?

Jory.

Quote

"Send for Illyn Payne."

"No," Ned said. "Jory, take the girls back to their rooms and bring me Ice."

It's hard to believe that Jory just dumped them off and left.

Also, previously, we see how much Ned cares for Sansa.

Quote

All Ned could do was take her in his arms and hold her while she wept. He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than a brother. "Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please"

He's putting it all on the line right here for Sansa, appealing to not only their friendship but invoking the same agonizing loss that Robert has carried over all these years.

Realize, of course, that this whole episode was an attempt by Cersei to slut-shame Sansa to claim that she is an unfit consort for Joffrey: Sandor suddenly disappears, allowing the prince and his highborn maid to disappear together for the afternoon; Joffrey riding fast and hard with his destrier while Sansa has little taste or experience with horses (and what does hard riding do to maiden's bodies?), filling her with wine . . . Imagine the scene when Cersei confronted them upon their return in front of the entire gathering? Too bad Arya and Nymeria fouled it all up, so Cersei had to content herself with a wolf, and a wedge between Robert and his best friend.

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37 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, but Septa Mordane and Jeyne is not the same thing like your father, who could maybe also explain things to you. He didn't have to do it right away, since he hadn't been sleeping, but it had been nice, if he'd done it later. The way he did with Arya as well.

No, it's not, but my point is that he wasn't even planning on going to see Arya who had been missing for 4 days. 

And Ned tends to go to the godswood to seek solitude and the gods after he executed someone, and he can't do that after he has to kill Lady. 

These threads that knit pick at everything are becoming more and more obnoxious. And yes, I know the next poster will tell me that I don't have to read or reply.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Realize, of course, that this whole episode was an attempt by Cersei to slut-shame Sansa to claim that she is an unfit consort for Joffrey: Sandor suddenly disappears, allowing the prince and his highborn maid to disappear together for the afternoon; Joffrey riding fast and hard with his destrier while Sansa has little taste or experience with horses (and what does hard riding do to maiden's bodies?), filling her with wine . . . Imagine the scene when Cersei confronted them upon their return in front of the entire gathering? Too bad Arya and Nymeria fouled it all up, so Cersei had to content herself with a wolf, and a wedge between Robert and his best friend.

that's the first time I've ever heard that. Even though Sansa doesn't like riding, as as a highborn girl she probably has done that enough, that that could have happened before anyway. Also wouldn't Cersei have reflected on this, if that was truly her plan? I never got the impression, that Cersei or joffrey were discontent with her as a betrothed in the beginning.

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6 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

No, it's not, but my point is that he wasn't even planning on going to see Arya who had been missing for 4 days. 

And Ned tends to go to the godswood to seek solitude and the gods after he executed someone, and he can't do that after he has to kill Lady. 

These threads that knit pick at everything are becoming more and more obnoxious. And yes, I know the next poster will tell me that I don't have to read or reply.

Yeah, I didn't mean that night. Just at some point during his stay in KL would have been nice, like that talk he had with Arya. But poor Ned hadn't slept since days and Arya was probably absolutely starving and physically exhausted and tired as well. Would not have been good to tell her about Mycah at that exact moment. Come to think of it. Arya also learns that from Jeyne, I believe. That's kind of brutal as well. But maybe it's supposed to be implied that Ned told her first. 

I guess most things have been discussed already, would be great to have new books.

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8 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, I didn't mean that night. Just at some point during his stay in KL would have been nice, like that talk he had with Arya.

Ned's interactions with Sansa probably happened off page and could still be brought up. Ned never interacted with Jon on page, but Jon leans into the things Ned taught him and Robb. We never see Ned's interaction with Benjen, even though we're told they'll have a discussion about Jon joining the NW, and we don't even know what Ned's thoughts are after he finds out that his brother has gone missing beyond the Wall. 

13 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Arya also learns that from Jeyne, I believe.

Jeyne Poole tells Arya that Mycah was cut up in many pieces and when they gave him in a bag to his father, the butcher, he thought they were giving him a pig that had been slaughtered. I think it's safe to assume that Ned told Arya about Mycah and Jeyne took some creative licence on the rest.

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Ned's interactions with Sansa probably happened off page and could still be brought up. Ned never interacted with Jon on page, but Jon leans into the things Ned taught him and Robb. We never see Ned's interaction with Benjen, even though we're told they'll have a discussion about Jon joining the NW, and we don't even know what Ned's thoughts are after he finds out that his brother has gone missing beyond the Wall. 

possible, but Sansa never behaves like her father had a serious conversation with her, while Arya does. But I guess some ppl will say, that's because she's a horrible person anyway. But IMO it would have had an impact on her, even if she can be a brat- mainly towards Arya, she is still fundamentally a "good girl".

Quote

Jeyne Poole tells Arya that Mycah was cut up in many pieces and when they gave him in a bag to his father, the butcher, he thought they were giving him a pig that had been slaughtered. I think it's safe to assume that Ned told Arya about Mycah and Jeyne took some creative licence on the rest.

Yeah, probably 

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3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

that's the first time I've ever heard that. Even though Sansa doesn't like riding, as as a highborn girl she probably has done that enough, that that could have happened before anyway. Also wouldn't Cersei have reflected on this, if that was truly her plan? I never got the impression, that Cersei or joffrey were discontent with her as a betrothed in the beginning.

Sansa hates horses and everything to do with them, so her riding experience is certain to be limited. But if she has had her hyman, fine; if not, this should do the trick.

Cersei does not reflect on this, but we don't get her POV until some two years later. She tends not to dwell on her failures, only her perceived successes.

Cersei is already deeply distrustful of Ned. Recall the conversation she had with Jaime in the tower. Even if she wasn't, I can't imagine she would be happy with her precious Joffrey married to a Stark. Better a Lannister cousin, and a good few years into the future: once she has gotten rid of Robert and she gets to pick his bride as Queen Regent.

Joffrey, meanwhile, looks at everything and everyone in Winterfell with thinly veiled contempt. He may not be openly hostile toward Sansa yet, but it's a fair bet that he's not head-over-heals for her either. Remember, all northerners, Starks included, are barely superior to wildlings in the eyes of southern Andals.

But the biggest clue that something is up here is Sandor. Joffrey tells him to back away from Sansa and he takes that as permission to go awol for the rest of the day, luckily resulting in Joffrey only injured and not killed? He is Joffrey's sworn sword -- he has sworn an oath to the king and the queen to protect Joff from all harm at all times. Not even Joffrey can command hi to do otherwise. The fact that he still has his head on his shoulders is incredible enough, but he also remains as Joff's protector? No way. Even Robert and Ned, two of the most renowned fighters in the land, fully armed and armored, do not leave the column without a tail. There should have been major repercussions to Sandor for allowing this to happen.

But this is only part of what I think was really going on. I'm pretty sure Joffrey was going to outright kill Sansa, and that the instigator of all this was Littlefinger.

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11 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

that's the first time I've ever heard that. Even though Sansa doesn't like riding, as as a highborn girl she probably has done that enough, that that could have happened before anyway. Also wouldn't Cersei have reflected on this, if that was truly her plan? I never got the impression, that Cersei or joffrey were discontent with her as a betrothed in the beginning.

I wonder why Cersei never protested the match, which was pretty terrible.

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