Why did Aegon allow the former kings so much power?

[Hugorfonics]

 

On 2/14/2020 at 3:42 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well the kings who bent the knee were the Lannisters, the Arryns and the Starks. The Lannisters and the Starks would have bent the knee regardless

Stark was on the verge of battle, diplomacy and assurances was what made him btk.

Lannister, yea, I guess regardless. How long would that last for though? That the proud lion must bow so low. Being a warden is a cushy job, being on the same level (or gods forbid below) as a Reyne or something is an insult to Lannisters honor and his houses

On 2/14/2020 at 3:42 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

means that the Arryns might have put up more resistance, nothing Balerion can't fix.

Balerion cant fix resistance. 

He can fix, uh, problems, but not stop them. Leveling the Eyrie can be done (maybe), but the Vale is a big place that hasn't actually even been fully subdued by the Andals let alone the Valyrians. 

Balerion is a big mother fucker, but hes only accessible when the Kings present, as in when hes not ruling or holding court. As far as the other two beasts are concerned, they too require the only two loyal subordinates that Aegon commands.

On 2/14/2020 at 3:42 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm not talking about really extinguish him, just reducing their power to their individual castles and their lands. Also there were a lot of second houses like the Hightowers, the Tarlys, the Reynes, the Brackens, the Blackwoods, the Waynewoods, the Royces and the Boltons just to name a few, that would have been very good at establishing rival power to the ancient great houses.

Logistics is a thing, but honor too. Stark will not be happy being on the same level as Bolton. Nor Lannister and Reyne.

Tully was created to be on the same level as Greyjoy, so something like that did happen.

I think Tyrell needed the strength that Hightower and them can provide, to keep the anti Dornish feelings prevalent. 

On 2/14/2020 at 3:42 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also if we want a historical precedent for something like this, we can look at Mathias Corvinus, who managed to conquer and rule Hungary with the support of only the small nobility and not that of the traditional high nobles. In fact Mathias reformed Hungary massively, centralizing the King's power and ushering in a golden age for Hungary (that is until the ottomans conquered most of it)

Word. But as you say, the Turks conquered everything right after. Im not sure if the lords were conniving when replaced, obviously being non christian hurts, but Hungary was often in a "tug of war" between the Ottomans and the Empire. 

While Westeros remains a continent by itself

16 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

It's not for you to ask, Fonics!!!!  It's none of your business what he does.  It's not your place to question a Dragonlord.    Understand?  

I do . Question, no. Judge and analyze, yes. 

16 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Seriously, maybe he needed to help the people. 

I thought you said you were being serious

16 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

They were in serious need of rescuing.  All that quarreling causing never ending suffering on the regular folk had to stop.  

But it didnt. Sworn Sword shows the calamity of smallfolk life. Theyre all just measurements for a pissing contest, destined for suffering. 

16 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Or maybe the Targaryens just wanted a change in scenery.  Away from the cool dampness of the island fortress to somewhere with more sunny days.  

He built the most uncomfortable chair and hat to work on his tan?

16 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

"Changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes, nothing remains quite the same"

Looking for my lost shaker of salt?

[frenin]

On 2/14/2020 at 12:49 AM, Hugorfonics said:

So whyd he conquer it?

 

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Distance. Check the royal progresses we know of. Aegon I went up north only three times in his reign, and Jaehaerys I also took his time visiting Winterfell and the North. But the Vale and the Westerlands were much closer to KL and were thus visited (and thus directly controlled) more often.

Aegon went up North six times during his reign and that has, or shoul have, nothing to do with your first comment?? Aegon specifically let the Great Lords and petty lords rule as Kigs in all but name, the common laws howeer were followed from the all to the marches. 

 

 

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We know that the wildlings were a constant threat in winter even after the Conquest - it would have been worse before that. 

Doubtful, the wildlings were never a "threat", there were more of an annoyance, i can't recall once the Starks cled all their banners to defeat them and even Ned  makes clear that he would only call all the banners to end the wilings for good. And also, what makes you think that the wildlings cared, or even knew, about the Targs??

 

 

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, the Stark kingdom was the largest, which means Stark power would have been nonexistent in the far reaches of their realm. In the late 2nd and 3rd century the Starks had to deal with incursions and rebellions and invasions constantly - that kind of thing would have been much worse before the Conquest where they would also have to deal with proper wars with the other kingdoms.

- How so?? That's why the Starks ended those houses that believed their power non existent, the only rebelions we know about are only from the Boltons and the Skagosi. After they had conquered the North, the rebellions would be just as the Skagosii one.

 

 

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 After the Starks had become the Wardens of the Targaryen kings their position strengthened - any invader or rebel would have known that if push came to shove the Starks could call upon the help of the Targaryen dragonriders to crush their enemies.

I know that that's certainly what you want to believe but people rebelle and invaded with and without Targs and it was Torrhen bending the knee what compelled his vassals to bend too, not the other way around.

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

FaB is the most actual version. The Lannisters not having close ties comes from TWoIaF before the Lannisters during the reign of Aenys, Maegor, and Jaehaerys I were actually covered in more detail. Obviously Lyman Lannister and Tymond Lannister actually tried to get closer to the Iron Throne - the former by trying to marry one of his sons to Queen Rhaena, the latter by putting himself forth as a suitor for the hand of Princess Daella.

 

One does not contradict the other, like at all.

 

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Once Loren the Last gave up his crown, the Lannisters were reduced to lords. Though their vast wealth remained untouched, they did not have close ties to House Targaryen (unlike the Baratheons) and unlike the Tullys they were too proud to at once scrabble for a place of prominence beneath the Iron Throne.

It was not until a generation later, when Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena sought refuge from King Maegor the Cruel, that the Lannisters once again began to make a greater mark on the realm. Lord Lyman  Lannister protected the prince and princess under his roof, extending guest right and refusing all the king’s demands to turn them over. Yet his lordship did not pledge his swords to the fugitive prince and princess, nor did he bestir himself until after Prince Aegon had perished at his uncle’s hands during the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye. Yet when Aegon’s youngest brother Jaehaerys put forward his own claim to the Iron Throne, the Lannisters rallied to his support.

King Maegor’s death and King Jaehaerys’s coronation moved House Lannister closer to the Iron Throne, though the Velaryons, the Arryns, the Hightowers, the Tullys, and the Baratheons still eclipsed them in influence. Lord Tymond Lannister was present at the Great Council of 101 AC that decided the succession, famously arriving with a huge retinue of three hundred bannermen, men-at-arms, and servants … only to be outdone by Lord Matthos Tyrell of Highgarden, who counted five hundred in his retinue. The Lannisters chose to side with Prince Viserys in the deliberations—a choice remembered and rewarded some years later, when Viserys ascended the Iron Throne and made Lord Jason Lannister’s twin brother Ser Tyland his master of ships. Later, Ser Tyland became master of coin for King Aegon II, and his close association with the Iron Throne and favored position at court brought his brother, Lord Jason, into the Dance of the Dragons on Aegon’s side.

Can you tell me how the new info F&B gave us would disprove this?? We're not told that  the Lannisters did not try to win over the the Targs but that "and unlike the Tullys they were too proud to at once scrabble for a place of prominence beneath the Iron Throne."

 

 

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaena's issues with the Lannisters are that they - due to their royal past and the splendour and power than came with Casterly Rock - never gave up the idea to reclaim what they lost. Meaning royal power. They were the only non-Valyrian house which actually openly tried to acquire dragons. Not other house ever dared to suggest to buy a dragon.

Only the royal past, not other House tried to buy dragons an that makes perfect sense, the Starks ither wouldn't be interested in anything that happened south the wall, especially after Walton's death or, and more likely, didn't have the money, the Baratheons like the Tyrells were new money, the Tullys were "scrabbling", thr Arryns were alreay in good position an Donnel Hightower id not care about anything happening past his walls. The Lannisters wre the only ones with money and grievances enough to try.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Stark was on the verge of battle, diplomacy and assurances was what made him btk.

I'm not so sure. I mean Torhhen had both numbers and dragons against him so as long as he retained Winterfell and his life I think he would have bent the knee regardless. He may have been proud but he wasn't stupid, that's for sure.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Balerion cant fix resistance. 

He can fix, uh, problems, but not stop them. Leveling the Eyrie can be done (maybe), but the Vale is a big place that hasn't actually even been fully subdued by the Andals let alone the Valyrians. 

Balerion is a big mother fucker, but hes only accessible when the Kings present, as in when hes not ruling or holding court. As far as the other two beasts are concerned, they too require the only two loyal subordinates that Aegon commands.

Balerion could fix the problem of the Arryns, while promising the Royces, Waynwoods and Graftons freedom from the Arryns, and making them direct vassals could solve the problem of loyalty.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Stark will not be happy being on the same level as Bolton. Nor Lannister and Reyne.

No they will not, but without vassals there wouldn't be anything they could do given that the Boltons and the Reynes would be their equals both in terms of rank and power.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But as you say, the Turks conquered everything right after. Im not sure if the lords were conniving when replaced, obviously being non christian hurts, but Hungary was often in a "tug of war" between the Ottomans and the Empire. 

Well, Mathias Corvinus achieved his conquest of Hungary by taking the petty lord from under the major ones. Cause in medieval Europe a lord is nothing without vassals. Also by right after, you mean another 100 years?

All in all given how much power the dragons gave him and how much he was feared, I think Aegon had the chance to turn the seven kingdoms into whatever he wanted, but for some reason he chose to retain the same feudalism, only with a new monarch, which really bited his dynasty in the ass later down the road.

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm not so sure.

The army was amassed and ready for action in the south

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm not so sure. I mean Torhhen had both numbers and dragons against him so as long as he retained Winterfell and his life I think he would have bent the knee regardless. He may have been proud but he wasn't stupid, that's for sure.

What Starks call proud, most would call stubborn. 

Aegon didnt want to battle or he would have. Numbers and dragons are nice, disloyal men and animal instincts are less so. 

Starks too proud to be on the same field as frog people, theyre supposed to rule Manderly, not compete. 

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Balerion could fix the problem of the Arryns, while promising the Royces, Waynwoods and Graftons freedom from the Arryns, and making them direct vassals could solve the problem of loyalty.

No they will not, but without vassals there wouldn't be anything they could do given that the Boltons and the Reynes would be their equals both in terms of rank and power. 

Ok. So what your suggesting is, 

a. Instead of 8 kingdoms its 500+ kingdoms?

Thats no good. Pissing contests man. Its literally the only thing these lords know what to do. They war on each other just as frequently as they did when they were legally the 500+ kingdoms. Just back then it was for conquest while now its disguised as a dispute too small to bring to their lord or king.

What your suggesting, is for Braken and Blackwood to have no boss, save Aegon whos far away, and command them to hold the kings justice. One would be dead by night time. 

b. Instead of 7 kingdoms its 1

Crownlands work because Stokeworth and them are close enough to ask for help or hear a cry for justice.

Moles town, its not close. For them asking for the Kings justice against Wildling raiders may have to take a backseat to Reach villages fighting Dornish raiders. 

Aegons 1 man. 3 at most, not 500+

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well, Mathias Corvinus achieved his conquest of Hungary by taking the petty lord from under the major ones. Cause in medieval Europe a lord is nothing without vassals. Also by right after, you mean another 100 years?

Lol exactly. But right after Hungary did star losing some stuff, even if it wasnt yet Budapest. 

But theyre really different, Hungarys surrounded by other nations while Westeros remains largely isolationist. 

I mean, Im no expert. But I assume that the threat of the Ottoman Empire or the Holy Roman Empire was much more prevalent to the local Lords then the Dornish principality or the Wildling raiders from somewhere north. 

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

All in all given how much power the dragons gave him and how much he was feared, I think Aegon had the chance to turn the seven kingdoms into whatever he wanted, but for some reason he chose to retain the same feudalism, only with a new monarch

I disagree. I think Aegon got lucky as hell and correctly took any win he saw when he could. 

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

really bited his dynasty in the ass later down the road.

Shoulda never lost those dragons

[Darth Sidious]

12 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm not so sure. I mean Torhhen had both numbers and dragons against him so as long as he retained Winterfell and his life I think he would have bent the knee regardless. He may have been proud but he wasn't stupid, that's for sure.

Torrhen was sensible for a Stark and bent the knee to his better.