The Schism of the First Men

[Wolf of The Wall]

Do anyone have a theory or an explanation for why and when the north of the wall / south of the wall split between the First Men occurred. Wildlings seems bitter about southerners built the Wall. They think they've been left out purposefully but I presume the Wall wasn't built in a single day and it is counterintuitive to left people on the Other side (pun intended ) of the wall. So how do you think it happened.

[rotting sea cow]

Well, they could just have been left aside, but I tend to think that the wildings are descendants of those who sacrificed to the Others, which is how they survived the Long Night.

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I think those First Men remained north of the Wall for the same reasons they had the Horn of Joramun. I think the First Men that remained north of the Wall were original members of the Night's Watch. 

[Loose Bolt]

I suspect that many of wildlings are descendants of people who run from area ruled by Starks for one reason or other. For instance surviving supporters of losers in wars that Starks won might have decided to run north instead of kneeling to victorious Starks.

Another group could be people whose lord was either greedy or just incompetent. For instance here in Finland in "good old times" many peasants lost their farms bc they could not pay their taxes or rents and so their lands were given to someone else. I assume that most lords would do same thing to any of their crofters who cannot pay his taxes or rent and so those and their families would have to leave their homes.

[kissdbyfire]

9 hours ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

They think they've been left out purposefully

No, they don’t think that.

Quote

but I presume the Wall wasn't built in a single day and it is counterintuitive to left people on the Other side (pun intended ) of the wall. So how do you think it happened.

Indeed. Directly from the horse’s mouth:

Yes, the Wall was much smaller when first raised. It took hundreds of years to complete and thousands to reach it's present height.

 

7 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think those First Men remained north of the Wall for the same reasons they had the Horn of Joramun. I think the First Men that remained north of the Wall were original members of the Night's Watch. 

That’s my take as well. I’m not sure we ever will, but I would love to get all the details and specifics on how it all played out. And I think it’s especially interesting that now, with the FF taking over the NW, it will be again almost totally FM, and back to being almost the same “configuration” the NW had at the time of the 1st War for the Dawn. 

Edited February 13, 2020 by kissdbyfire

[Alexis-something-Rose]

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s my take as well. I’m not sure we ever will, but I would love to get all the details and specifics on how it all played out. And I think it’s especially interesting that now, with the FF taking over the NW, it will be again almost totally FM, and back to being almost the same “configuration” the NW had at the time of the 1st War for the Dawn. 

It's interesting, isn't it?

I always considered the Horn of Winter being north of the Wall to be a bit of a giveaway. And the one time it was used, it brought a wildling king and a Stark king together to end a man who allegedly fell in love with a female Other, turned his men into thralls and was making sacrifices to the Others.

I wonder if the horn would sound differently from the other horns or if it gets activated and if it's would have to be bound by magic to the person who blows it, like dragonbinder.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It's interesting, isn't it?

Super. 

5 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I always considered the Horn of Winter being north of the Wall to be a bit of a giveaway.

Yeah, it’s a pretty neat hint, innit?

 

5 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And the one time it was used, it brought a wildling king and a Stark king together to end a man who allegedly fell in love with a female Other, turned his men into thralls and was making sacrifices to the Others.

I will admit that this whole thing w/ the NK etc does my head in a bit.  I mean, not really, but it’s something that I keep changing my mind about all the time. For such a long time now, it’s fucking exhausting!

But I think part of it is, we have so few clues, so it’s virtually impossible to piece this puzzle together at the mo IMO. But I can’t wait to learn more. 

5 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I wonder if the horn would sound differently from the other horns or if it gets activated and if it's would have to be bound by magic to the person who blows it, like dragonbinder.

Another good question. Some believe the horn of winter is the cracked old horn Ghost/Jon found near the Fist. It could be... but Jon blew that horn, and “nothing” happened. Or at least nothing as far as Jon could tell. But I often wonder, what if it did though? What if it did do something? 

Now it’s in Oldtown, and there’s another whole cascade of questions... 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

51 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Another good question. Some believe the horn of winter is the cracked old horn Ghost/Jon found near the Fist. It could be... but Jon blew that horn, and “nothing” happened. Or at least nothing as far as Jon could tell. But I often wonder, what if it did though? What if it did do something? 

 Now it’s in Oldtown, and there’s another whole cascade of questions... 

I've mulled over the option that the horn will sound when it is meant to sound. Like perhaps it is tied to the "darkness gathering." 

I must admit, I have a bit of a difficult time with the idea that the horn will bring down the Wall. 

But then . . . As you said, the horn is now in Oldtown where Euron is headed, so there's that. I think there's a small indication that he is a newer version of the Night's King.

The vision Damphair has of Euron on the Iron Throne in the WoW sample chapter, also has a "shadow in woman's form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire." She sounds an awful a lot like she might be a female Other.

 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I've mulled over the option that the horn will sound when it is meant to sound. Like perhaps it is tied to the "darkness gathering." 

Defo a possibility. I’ve often wondered if the sound it makes is not audible to human ears. Another thing I’ve thought of often is, the HoW needs a combination of things occurring for it to do its thing. 

3 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I must admit, I have a bit of a difficult time with the idea that the horn will bring down the Wall. 

You and me both. And I’m not even 100% sold on the idea that ‘“Chekhov’s Wall”, therefore it must fall. ‘

Now, the NW no longer being true to its purpose, and that fucks everything up I’m totally in agreement with. 

3 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But then . . . As you said, the horn is now in Oldtown where Euron is headed, so there's that. I think there's a small indication that he is a newer version of the Night's King.

 

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The vision Damphair has of Euron on the Iron Throne in the WoW sample chapter, also has a "shadow in woman's form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire." She sounds an awful a lot like she might be a female Other.

 

Oh yeah! One way or another I fully expect Euron to play a part in how things go down in the North. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Now, the NW no longer being true to its purpose, and that fucks everything up I’m totally in agreement with. 

Bran found himself remembering the tales Old Nan had told him when he was a babe. Beyond the Wall the monsters live, the giants and the ghouls, the stalking shadows and the dead that walk, she would say, tucking him in beneath his scratchy woolen blanket, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night's Watch are true.

Pretty sure that's done and over with. I think the horn as a Chekhov's gun is too obvious. But maybe I'm wrong.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Bran found himself remembering the tales Old Nan had told him when he was a babe. Beyond the Wall the monsters live, the giants and the ghouls, the stalking shadows and the dead that walk, she would say, tucking him in beneath his scratchy woolen blanket, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night's Watch are true.

 

sure that's done and over with.

i think it's partially done, but not quite done with.

 

Just now, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think the horn as a Chekhov's gun is too obvious. But maybe I'm wrong.

i meant the Wall itself as a Chekhov's gun. the argument is, this 700ft wall is there as a Chekhov's gun, therefore it will most defo fall. that's what im not convinced of.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

i think it's partially done, but not quite done with.

Point of clarification on that. What I meant by done is that the Night's Watch as a collective is really not all that true anymore. Jeor Mormont was murdered, Craster's wives were raped, and Bowen Marsh took a knife to Jon Snow. 

The Night's Watch itself is a chink in the Wall.

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

i meant the Wall itself as a Chekhov's gun. the argument is, this 700ft wall is there as a Chekhov's gun, therefore it will most defo fall. that's what im not convinced of.

I am not convinced of that either. I think it's the magic in it is going to crap up. 

BTW, this conversation is nice and refreshing, even though I know we've discussed a couple of things in here already. It gets away from the character threads, which these days make me wanna put my head in the toilet and flush repeatedly.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

which these days make me wanna put my head in the toilet and flush repeatedly

You’re a sweetie (totally defo intended, but not as something obnoxious and condescending  ), b/c I feel like putting so many heads not my own in the loo and flushing repeatedly, until they’re gone, gone, GONE.

 

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 I think it's the magic in it is going to crap up. 

Couldn’t add this to my previous post... guilty of prematurely hitting the submit button. But I defo agree, and the magic cracking is a consequence of the NW not being true to their purpose anymore. And... *drumroll* ... that changes w/ the FF taking over.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 2/13/2020 at 7:25 AM, Wolf of The Wall said:

Do anyone have a theory or an explanation for why and when the north of the wall / south of the wall split between the First Men occurred. Wildlings seems bitter about southerners built the Wall. They think they've been left out purposefully but I presume the Wall wasn't built in a single day and it is counterintuitive to left people on the Other side (pun intended ) of the wall. So how do you think it happened.

The schism started after they build the wall but sometime after the rise of the Night's King . After that there is no longer any cooperation between the North and the Wildlings . Wildlings could no longer for any reason go to the more fertile land south  . Then slowly their culture changes . The Starks weds their cousins  , the Wildling take wives far outside the tribe , The North name their bastard children Snow , to the Wildlings ,Snow is an evil name .

[Gink]

We dont know if there were anyone north of the wall when it came up. Its been standing there for 8.000 years as far as we know. I would think no one lived in the lands north of the wall at the time it was built (I suspect it was built by the Others anyway), and people just ended up there as the millennia passed. Some fleeing justice, others seeking freedom from the tyrannical nobles, NW deserters, some from shipwrecks etc. Over time they developed their own customs and culture.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Gink

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, Gink said:

We dont know if there were anyone north of the wall when it came up. Its been standing there for 8.000 years as far as we know. I would think no one lived in the lands north of the wall at the time it was built (I suspect it was built by the Others anyway), and people just ended up there as the millennia passed. Some fleeing justice, others seeking freedom from the tyrannical nobles, NW deserters, some from shipwrecks etc. Over time they developed their own customs and culture.

The thing is, the Wall wasn’t raised in a day or a week or even a decade. Martin said it took hundreds of years for it to be built.

[Gink]

27 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The thing is, the Wall wasn’t raised in a day or a week or even a decade. Martin said it took hundreds of years for it to be built.

I never said it was raised in a short amount of time, however, I doubt people were too keen on moving north of the construction site that soon after the long night. Thats what I ment when I said I didnt think anyone lived north of the wall until after it was raised.

We know that the Watch has been continuously adding to it over the millennia, we're told in one of Jons chapters.

 

[Oumuamua]

On 2/13/2020 at 7:25 AM, Wolf of The Wall said:

Do anyone have a theory or an explanation for why and when the north of the wall / south of the wall split between the First Men occurred. Wildlings seems bitter about southerners built the Wall. They think they've been left out purposefully but I presume the Wall wasn't built in a single day and it is counterintuitive to left people on the Other side (pun intended ) of the wall. So how do you think it happened.

The ancestors of the wildlings were people who sought freedom from the long arm of authority.  They were content to stay away from any government but wanted to raid the law-abiding people for goods.  The wall made that very inconvenient.  

[Curled Finger]

A look at the Wildlings themselves may give a hint.   The Thenns are supposed to be the "closest" to the original First Men that exist in Westeros.   They lived right next door to the Lands of Always Winter, to boot.   I can't imagine anyone except the members of the NW to volunteer to stay north of the Wall, but I also can't imagine that they would branch off so far from their sworn duty if they actually were remnants.   I've always had a pet theory that the Wildlings, the Thenns, in particular, had some hand in creating or aiding the Others.  It's possible the people north of the wall were criminals in exile or so far from the Northern seat of power they could not get south of the wall.    Most of the legends from the Nightfort are of criminals as there are few "happy" or "helpful" characters of legend in the North.   Bael the Bard was not a good guy.  

Then again, I can't imagine anyone wanting to live in such brutal cold.  I suppose all the folks of the North on both sides of the Wall developed some affinity for that sort of cold.  Still, the far North is wicked cold, an unnatural place to live.  Always found it curious that the COTF opted to go there, too.