Targaryen marriage alliances and power-blocs in post dragon Westeros

[frenin]

On 2/25/2020 at 7:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

If Tywin could have raised more than 12K in the eight months or so that the war has been raging, he would have done so, and he would have marched the whole lot to King's Landing to ensure his victory there. There was no guarantee, after all, that even after he sacked and burned the city and murdered the Targs that the rebels would welcome him with open arms.

 

He wasn't raising an army in the 8-9 months of the war, we don't know when he started to levy and ofct that Tywin gambled there, but his bet was that the rebels would actually welcome him.

 

On 2/25/2020 at 7:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

The Reach has been the hegemon on the continent for thousands of years. This is an established fact. It always had the largest population, the largest number of banners, it provides the most valuable commodity of all: food. And aside from the one time when political strife led to its downfall, it has never been overrun despite having no natural defenses with which to defeat an invading army. All it has is its population.

 The Gardeners did seize and hold sizable areas of the stormlands for lengths of time. Nobody has ever held any part of the Reach for any longer than it took for the Reach army to defeat the invaders. The Gardeners also had no reason to use its hegemony to conquer other lands; they already have the best, most fruitful lands on the continent. They utilize their hegemony for defense, not offense.

Nope it isn't, the Reach currently is and may have been that way for a couple of centuries, but not for thousand of years no, especially not when both the Riverlands and the Stormlands changed that much. Least to say that the most powerful kingdom bit is literally phrased as something its inhabitants believe.

How do you know that nobody has ever had any part of the Reach, how do you even know that the Reach got to reconquer their lands inmediately after that??

 

 

On 2/25/2020 at 7:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

 The riverlands, the entire riverlands, was never united until the Hoares united it. At best, you had river and marsh kings who would carve out a piece here and there and rule it for several hundred years. The Gardeners ruled the entire Reach in an unbroken line since before the Andal invasion at least two thousands years ago and possibly as long as six.

 

The Mudds, the Justmans and the Teagues and the Durrandons united the Riverlands, they died out ofc but so did the Gardeners.

 

 

On 2/25/2020 at 7:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

 There has never been this kind of alliance-building in the realm, pre- or post-conquest. Look at all the available family trees. At best you'll see a kingdom/great house marrying into someone else's banner, like a Stark to a Royce or a Blackwood, but rarely do you see a Tully to a Lannister or an Arryn to a Stark -- and never multiple marriages of this kind taking place all at once, never.

 

Baratheons and Lannisters have married more than once and so have the Starks and Arryns.

Now, i doubt people would've talked about any alliance had Robert not fall in love with Lyanna. Because that kind of thing can't be controlled, the only  talked matches were just, the tully girls with Brandon and Jaime.

 

 

 

On 2/25/2020 at 7:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

This is exactly what Aerys feared. It's why he went to Harrenhal after holing himself up in his castle for three years. Do you think he just suddenly felt like taking in a tourney?

 

And yet we're told that he feared his son and he feared Tywin only Tywin, we're never told he feared an alliance against him.

He went to said tourney because of Rhaegar, not the STABL alliance.

 

 

On 2/25/2020 at 7:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

 What are you talking about? Aerys had no intention of ruling? He was the king. He'd been ruling for 20 years. The text is clear: Aerys sent JonCon and Darry into the Reach to reassemble the army, not Rhaegar; Aerys forced Lewyn to bring up the Dornish, not Rhaegar; Aerys sent the Tyrell army to Storm's End, not Rhaegar. Rhaegar was nowhere to be seen until he suddenly pops up in King's Landing and Aerys, who for months has been dealing with the shitstorm that Rhaegar caused, just hands over his army to the man he suspects is trying to usurp him. In no way, shape or form was Aerys limited, even to the point of executing high lords who displease him in the most gruesome, hideous manner he could think of.

 

1 out of three. Aerys did not force Lewyn to bring the Dornish army, the army was already coming to defend Elia, Aerys did not send the Tyrells to Storm's End as far as we know, nor he send JonCon to anything but to exile. But he did send Barri B and Darry,

I was talking in the days in which there was no war, days in which Aerys, bar some attempts to uck with Tywin, was not ruling, just holed up in his own castle.

 

 

On 2/25/2020 at 7:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

 The Hightowers were one of many houses that Elia and Oberyn were trotted off to. Others were Dayne, Redwyne, one or more of the Shield Island houses, Crakehall. No matches were ever proposed, at least not publicly, not even to the Lannisters. It was all a fishing trip -- possibly a sign that the Dornish were looking to build alliances to counter the Iron Throne as well. But nobody wants Dornish blood in their line, so it was all for naught -- even if Baelor had not farted.

 

Or... The Princess of Dorne, rejected said suitors, not matches were ever proposed, people were presenting themselves.

People just don't go offering their sons up, parents talk and then children get to meet each other.

All those houses were likely rejected by Elia, who did not like them, and the one she did like was Baelor, so no, had Baelor not farted, Elia would've been his wife.

 

The nobody wants Dornish blood in their line is your headcanon and a very untrue one.

 

 

On 2/25/2020 at 7:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

 Yes, like I said, the Reach has a particular antipathy for Dorne because of their mutual history of bloodshed. And yes, they do care about wars decades, even centuries earlier:

Yes, like you said, only pointing at people who have a a history against the Dornish, but have no problem with fucking them, (Arys) or have problem with the Dornish because there is a fairly recent bad blood with them (Mace), to then say that no one likes the Dornish is ludicrous,

 

 

On 2/25/2020 at 7:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

So, sorry friend, but the text is clear. Nobody likes the Dornish. They're weird. And their influence at court and entrance into the royal bloodline was one of the precipitating factors of the Blackfyre rebellion.

 

Yep, 100 years before the events of the books and some 76 before the start of the alliances. What does it matter?? Don't you have some recent quote in which we see people that like the Westermen, valemen or rivermen ranting on the Dornish??

Btw, since Dornish marches became all Westeros??

So, sorry friend, yours is just headcanon.

 

On 2/25/2020 at 7:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

 Tywin would probably haven taken Viserys if an offer had been put on the table. It wasn't, so he started talking to Hoster about Lysa. Do you see the pressure tactic here? If I can't marry into House Targaryen, then I will marry into House Tully instead. One thing he is not doing is talking about either Cersei or Jaime to any of his bannermen, the way it's been done for thousands of years. Marriage alliances between the great houses are serious business because it creates a larger base of power than two individual houses. Multiple houses pose an even more serious problem because the crown has very little lands from which to draw its own levies. It has to rely on the great houses, and thus it needs their political support, not opposition, in order to counter threats. This is why these kinds of alliances hadn't been done before and why the Iron Throne, particularly under Good Queen Allysanne, inserted themselves into the matchmaking of the great houses.

Except that marrying Cersei and marrying were completely independant. Jaime would marry as high as possible regardless Cersei were to be married into the Targs, Cersei would be married as high as possible regardless Jaime were to marry Lysa or not. And it makes complete sense those bethrothals, both Rickard and Tywin are in full control of his lands, so look outside seems the best idea and who better than their neighbour?? Hoster is already married inside but his bannermen have a lot of ties outside the Riverlands, some like the Darry or the Mootons have strong ties with the crown and the Tullys were never the most powerful, proud or richest house of the Riverlands, so marrying into two solid great houses is a perfect move and Robert who could not care less about politics just wanted to marry for love.

Now, if the marriages between Great Houses were such a problem, they would've been forbidden or at least neededthe crown's supervision, this never happened, so this is just the fandom paranoia.

And Alysanne, just as Rhaenys and Visenya before here, didn't give a fuck about these kind of alliances, because they had huge ass dragons and actually their aim was to unite the Realm together by intermarrying their most powerful vassals. Alyssane wanted to marry Alaric's sons to powerful houses in the south, Alaric said no because the religion was a touchy thing for him.

 

 

 

On 2/25/2020 at 7:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

 Tywin did not invade the stormlands, Vale or north. He would have used the same tactics if he had. He wasn't afraid of Stannis; he just recognized him as his most serious opponent. Tyrion held the same view. And they are right. Of all the combatants, Stannis has the most battle experience, having proven himself both offensively and defensively many times.

 

That's what you want him to, he would to get there first and then he would need to ask himself, who is going to rule them next. 

And the rest... anyway.

 

 

On 2/25/2020 at 7:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

 The Reach has lost when they tried to take others' lands. They have never suffered a significant loss that cost them their own lands, save that one time. Have you ever looked at the map? The stormlands are full of mountains and dense forests that make it difficult to maneuver an army and easy to become trapped by those who know the land. Likewise, the westerlands are full of mountain ranges, deep forests, rivers and other natural defenses. The riverlands has rivers that are difficult to cross and forces you to divide your army. At best, you can hold one or two pieces at a time, which is why it was so contested over the centuries until the Hoares showed that in order to control the riverlands you had to control the rivers. The Reach has none of this; just wide open farmland as far as they eye can see. It's only mountains are in the south, and there is a huge pass to and from Dorne large enough to march a hundred armies through. It's only main river is the Mander, which Highgarden has to sail against the current to utilize but anyone invading from the east or north can use to bring them right into the heart of the Reach.

 

That you know of, since you know next to nothing to those campaigns.

I did, not of those forests are really natural defenses, as we see people has less to litte problem and the time to believe them a problem it would be when we're told they are a problem.

 

 

On 2/25/2020 at 7:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

 It doesn't matter what the Lannister know or don't know. The fact is their "ally" has just murdered their king, grandson of Lord Lannister. If they were all such good friends and they had such faith and trust in Tywin, then there is no reason for them to think Joffrey will hurt Margaery even if he wanted to (assuming you subscribe to the utterly discredited theory that that is why Joffrey died).

 

Well it matters to decide whether there is problem between them or it's only imagined.  Joffrey was King and when he came of age his power would be almost absolute whether Tywin wanted it or not, leaving Margaery in his hands is just ludicrous, that and the fact that Loras would end killing him sooner or later.

They don't have any problem with Tommen however.

 

On 2/25/2020 at 7:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

 Read the Sworn Sword. These kinds of disputes happen all the time. When they cross the borders of the great houses, the dispute as adjudicated by the king, who happens to be Tywin's grandson. And when civil order breaks down, as it has now, it's every house for itself and the one with the largest army usually wins and gets to take lands, gold, titles and other goodies from the loser. And as I said, when you lose to Tywin, your family is exterminated.

 

I read it, you are using a very specific problems, that affect a very specific people, to build your own headcanon, can you tell me about one border dispute between 2 great houses?? It's not like  the Wot5k has been the only civil war since the Targs came into power or with the only houses being attainted or losing lands.

That and the fact that Tywin simply can't face the Reach, he needs them like a thirsty man needs water.

 

 

 

On 2/25/2020 at 7:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

 Nonsense, Mace has never done a single thing over his mother's objections. He doesn't even overrule his own bannermen. He just agrees with whatever they say. Read the man on the page. He is a bumbling idiot who can be either intimidated or manipulated into doing whatever the stronger personality in the room wants. In most cases, that is Lady Olenna.

Hmm, Renly and Joffrey were very against his mother's objections.

 

 

[John Suburbs]

10 hours ago, frenin said:

He wasn't raising an army in the 8-9 months of the war, we don't know when he started to levy and ofct that Tywin gambled there, but his bet was that the rebels would actually welcome him.

 

Nope it isn't, the Reach currently is and may have been that way for a couple of centuries, but not for thousand of years no, especially not when both the Riverlands and the Stormlands changed that much. Least to say that the most powerful kingdom bit is literally phrased as something its inhabitants believe.

How do you know that nobody has ever had any part of the Reach, how do you even know that the Reach got to reconquer their lands inmediately after that??

 

 

The Mudds, the Justmans and the Teagues and the Durrandons united the Riverlands, they died out ofc but so did the Gardeners.

 

 

Baratheons and Lannisters have married more than once and so have the Starks and Arryns.

Now, i doubt people would've talked about any alliance had Robert not fall in love with Lyanna. Because that kind of thing can't be controlled, the only  talked matches were just, the tully girls with Brandon and Jaime.

 

 

 

And yet we're told that he feared his son and he feared Tywin only Tywin, we're never told he feared an alliance against him.

He went to said tourney because of Rhaegar, not the STABL alliance.

 

 

1 out of three. Aerys did not force Lewyn to bring the Dornish army, the army was already coming to defend Elia, Aerys did not send the Tyrells to Storm's End as far as we know, nor he send JonCon to anything but to exile. But he did send Barri B and Darry,

I was talking in the days in which there was no war, days in which Aerys, bar some attempts to uck with Tywin, was not ruling, just holed up in his own castle.

 

 

Or... The Princess of Dorne, rejected said suitors, not matches were ever proposed, people were presenting themselves.

People just don't go offering their sons up, parents talk and then children get to meet each other.

All those houses were likely rejected by Elia, who did not like them, and the one she did like was Baelor, so no, had Baelor not farted, Elia would've been his wife.

 

The nobody wants Dornish blood in their line is your headcanon and a very untrue one.

 

 

Yes, like you said, only pointing at people who have a a history against the Dornish, but have no problem with fucking them, (Arys) or have problem with the Dornish because there is a fairly recent bad blood with them (Mace), to then say that no one likes the Dornish is ludicrous,

 

 

Yep, 100 years before the events of the books and some 76 before the start of the alliances. What does it matter?? Don't you have some recent quote in which we see people that like the Westermen, valemen or rivermen ranting on the Dornish??

Btw, since Dornish marches became all Westeros??

So, sorry friend, yours is just headcanon.

 

Except that marrying Cersei and marrying were completely independant. Jaime would marry as high as possible regardless Cersei were to be married into the Targs, Cersei would be married as high as possible regardless Jaime were to marry Lysa or not. And it makes complete sense those bethrothals, both Rickard and Tywin are in full control of his lands, so look outside seems the best idea and who better than their neighbour?? Hoster is already married inside but his bannermen have a lot of ties outside the Riverlands, some like the Darry or the Mootons have strong ties with the crown and the Tullys were never the most powerful, proud or richest house of the Riverlands, so marrying into two solid great houses is a perfect move and Robert who could not care less about politics just wanted to marry for love.

Now, if the marriages between Great Houses were such a problem, they would've been forbidden or at least neededthe crown's supervision, this never happened, so this is just the fandom paranoia.

And Alysanne, just as Rhaenys and Visenya before here, didn't give a fuck about these kind of alliances, because they had huge ass dragons and actually their aim was to unite the Realm together by intermarrying their most powerful vassals. Alyssane wanted to marry Alaric's sons to powerful houses in the south, Alaric said no because the religion was a touchy thing for him.

 

 

 

That's what you want him to, he would to get there first and then he would need to ask himself, who is going to rule them next. 

And the rest... anyway.

 

 

That you know of, since you know next to nothing to those campaigns.

I did, not of those forests are really natural defenses, as we see people has less to litte problem and the time to believe them a problem it would be when we're told they are a problem.

 

 

Well it matters to decide whether there is problem between them or it's only imagined.  Joffrey was King and when he came of age his power would be almost absolute whether Tywin wanted it or not, leaving Margaery in his hands is just ludicrous, that and the fact that Loras would end killing him sooner or later.

They don't have any problem with Tommen however.

 

I read it, you are using a very specific problems, that affect a very specific people, to build your own headcanon, can you tell me about one border dispute between 2 great houses?? It's not like  the Wot5k has been the only civil war since the Targs came into power or with the only houses being attainted or losing lands.

That and the fact that Tywin simply can't face the Reach, he needs them like a thirsty man needs water.

 

 

 

Hmm, Renly and Joffrey were very against his mother's objections.

 

 

Of course he did. As soon as Jon Arryn called his banners the war was on. What kind of idiot do you think he is?

The Reach is the hegemon. No one has ever invaded and occupied Reach lands for any significant amount of time. I've showed you all the text. Real canon trumps head canon.

None of these houses united the Riverlands. They all held various pieces of it, sometimes for several centuries. The Riverlands as it is known today was not united under one rule until the Hoares figured out how to do it, and even then it required centuries of constant warfare.

Yes, like I said, there were several instances in which the kingdoms/great houses intermarried, but never multiple houses at the same time like we saw before RR. And we don't even know if the Lannisters who married Baratheons were from the ruling Lannisters. Tya, for one, is not connected to the main branch as far as we can tell.

Love had little to do with medieval marriages. Rickard would not agree to the match unless it provided a political gain.

Open your eyes, man. Tourneys were used by unhappy lords as cover to plot rebellions, just like in The Mystery Knight. Aerys knows this, and he is suspicious of Rhaegar, Tywin and all the other lords of conspiring against him.

Yes, the Dornish army that was coming up the kingsroad before Rhaegar had even returned to the capital. Aerys summoned the Dornish and Aerys made Lewyn its commander before Rhaegar was even on the scene. And even after Rhaegar returned he only "persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father." Rhaegar did not order this, did not command this, because Aerys is in complete charge here, not Rhaegar. The Tyrells fought the Battle of Ashford and marched on Storm's End when Rhaegar was still awol. So who else but Aerys could have given those orders? Right, Selmy and Darry, not JonCon. JonCon had already been appointed as hand and dismissed, by Aerys, not Rhaegar. So please, tell me how is Aerys a prisoner in the Red Keep, unable to issue commands and direct the affairs of the realm, either before or during the war? Even after Duskendale, Aerys

•  summoned Steffon Baratheon to court and appointed him to the small council
•  dispatched Steffon to Volantis to find a bride for Rhaegar
•  brought Varys to court and made him Master of Whispers
•  betrothed Rhaegar to Elia Martell
•  refused to attend the wedding and forbade Viserys to attend as well
•  began executing traitors with wildfire instead of hanging
•  appointed Rossart to the small council
•  appointed Jaime to the kingsguard
• could have refused Tywin's offer of resignation but didn't
•  appointed Owen Merryweather as Hand after Tywin's departure

So sorry pal, but your head canon has run amok here. Aerys was in full command from the moment he donned the crown to the moment Jaime killed him.

Even princesses of Dorne are not at liberty to choose their own spouses nor reject a marriage that has been arranged by their parents. If Elia's mother and Lord Hightower wanted her to marry Baelon, that's what would have happened, whether Elia loved him or not. Just like Arianne would have married Viserys no matter her feelings. This was a fishing trip, and more than likely it was the Hightowers who rejected the idea, not the Martells.

Outside of the Targeryens (who are recent immigrants to Westeros), I can think of one marriage between a Dornish house and a non-Dornish House: Sylvia Santager who was force-married to 70-year-old Eldon Estermont as punishment for her role in the Mycella caper. This is very unlikely to produce any children, and the heirs to the castle already run two generations deep. The only other matches that comes close is Allyria Dayne who was promised to Beric Dondarrion but never married. And then, of course, Myrcella, which isn't likely to happen either and was only agreed to out of desperation. So spare me all this talk about how all the other houses are clamoring to add Dornish blood, even that of the ruling family, to their lines. Look at the Martell line, which is chock full of brides from Essos -- because nobody outside of Dorne or House Targaryen wants anything to do with them.

It's not me saying this. It's Martin. Take your argument up with him.

The Starks, Lannisters, Arryns and Baratheons have been in full control of their lands for thousands of years, and the Tullys for 300. Why does it only make sense to start uniting all of their houses now? If you look at history, the reason is clear: the dragons are gone so the Targs are now dependent on the houses for support; Aegon V pissed off the great lords with his land and justice reforms to protect the smallfolk; and now Aerys is acting increasingly unstable and autocratic. So for virtually the entire lives of all these great lords, Targaryen rule is becoming increasingly burdensome even as Targaryen power is on the wane. Best thing for the future? Form up now so they can respond as one when the inevitable war comes.

Queen Alysanne arranged marriages between Templetons and Mullendores, Celtigars and Peakes, not between Baratheons and Starks or Tullys and Lannisters. She offered "great southern lords" to Alaric, which could mean Beesburys, Freys, Estermonts, and literally dozens of others -- and with Alaric wanting only followers of old gods, that pretty much restricted it to the Blackwoods. But sure, the Targeryans of that era didn't need to fear great houses uniting because dragons trump armies. In Aerys' time, the calculus is radically different.

There is simply no mention in the histories that we know of, and the World Book gives us all the key events in the Reach and all the warfare that has befallen other realsm, that even hints that any of their lands were ever occupied for any length of time, other than the one time I mentioned. Not once in a land that is literally wide open to invasion from all sides. If you want to argue that the Reach has been warred over for eons just like the stormlands, riverlands and elsewhere, give us something, anything, to support it. Otherwise, this idea is a non-starter.

How can you possibly argue that "there is no problem" between House Lannister and House Tyrell when House Tyrell is murdering members of House Lannister? Obviously there is a problem. You've settled on the thoroughly disproven theory that the Tyrells were afraid for Margaery's safety when all the facts point to threat posed by Tywin's ascendant power. This is the real threat to Highgarden and all of House Tyrell, not whether Joffrey will give Margaery a few bruises and a black eye. Plenty of queens have suffered far worse for their crowns. And if and when Joffrey does become a problem, they can get rid of him at any time and with far less risk to themselves, and then Margaery rules outright as Queen Regent until her son comes of age.

These are exactly the kinds of disputes that a king settles:

Quote

"I swear to you, sitting a throne is a thousand times harder than winning one. Laws are a tedious business and counting coppers is worse. And the people . . . there is no end to them. I sit on the damnable iron chair and listen to them complain until my mind is numb and my ass is raw. They all want something, money or land or justice. The lies they tell . . ."

. . .

Two knights came to him with a dispute about some land, and he decreed that they should duel for it on the morrow. "To the death," he added.

 Elsewhere, we see the importance that every mill, ford, woodland and village has to lords, and how they squabble over them:

Quote

"What of the lands and castles we were promised?"

"What lands were these?"

"The east bank of Widow's Wash, from Crossbow Ridge to Rutting Meadows, and all the islands in the stream. Grindcorn Mill and Lord's Mill, the ruins of Muddy Hall, the Ravishment, Battle Valley, Oldforge, the villages of Buckle, Blackbuckle, Cairns, and Claypool, and the market town at Mudgrave. Waspwood, Lorgen's Wood, Greenhill, and Barba's Teats."

All of this represents income to whichever lord controls it. The life of a lord, great or small, is devoted to expanding his wealth and domains at the expense of those around him. The border between the westerlands and the Reach is ripe for this kind of grasping, and with the Lannisters controlling well more than half the kingdom, there is no way to stop them from taking piece after piece after piece, either by legal writ or armed conflict. Tywin only needs the Reach until Stannis is defeated and the realm is once again brought under the king's peace. Then he becomes the most powerful lord with the most holdings and the largest army, and his grandson on the throne. He will be unstoppable, and of all the Tyrells, Lady Olenna is wise enough to see this.

Lady Olenna agreed to both marriages: Renly and Joffrey. We can spot her lies from a mile away. She lies about virtually everything in this conversation, and pretty much every conversation that we see of hers. She did not break off her engagement to the Targaryen prince, the Targaryen prince did; Lord Luthor's horse did not just ride off a cliff, horses don't do that; Mace did not broker the alliance and marriage, she did while Mace blustered and bloviated; she knows exactly what kind of person Joffrey is and that, despicable as he is, he poses absolutely no threat to Margaery. If she does not know all of the things that Sansa "reveals" to her in this conversation, she is literally the last person in Westeros still in the dark about him. I'll bet she even knows exactly what a puff fish is called. She also knows full well that Tyrion is not going to lead great hosts to war; she knows exactly where the smell in the sept was coming from . . . She is not an idiot. She does this to get people off their guard so she can gauge their character, and at the same time she can blame whatever failure she creates on Mace. 

[frenin]

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Of course he did. As soon as Jon Arryn called his banners the war was on. What kind of idiot do you think he is?

Except he didn't, do you have any quote, we simply don't know when he started calling the banners and what troops did he asked for.

 

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 The Reach is the hegemon. No one has ever invaded and occupied Reach lands for any significant amount of time. I've showed you all the text. Real canon trumps head canon.

 

No, you didn't you just showed me the opinion of its inhabitants and took for a fact that they never lost lands and so, even when we know they were beaten like any mortal men.

 

 

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 None of these houses united the Riverlands. They all held various pieces of it, sometimes for several centuries. The Riverlands as it is known today was not united under one rule until the Hoares figured out how to do it, and even then it required centuries of constant warfare.

 

 

Massey’s Hook was part of their realm then, and all the kingswood as far as the Blackwater Rush. In certain epochs, the Storm Kings even ruled beyond the Blackwater. Towns as far-flung as Duskendale and Maidenpool once paid homage to Storm’s End, and under the redoubtable warrior king Arlan III Durrandon, the stormlanders took dominion over the entire riverlands. They held them for more than three centuries.

 

The first of the Andal kings to bring all the riverlands under his sway was a bastard born of a tryst between two ancient enemies, the Blackwoods and the Brackens. As a boy, he was Benedict Rivers, despised by all, but he grew to be the greatest warrior of his age, Ser Benedict the Bold. His prowess in battle won him the support of both his mother’s house and his father’s, and soon other riverlords bent their knees to him as well. It required more than thirty years for Benedict to throw down the last of the petty kings of the Trident. Only when the last had yielded did he don a crown himself.
As king, he became known as Benedict the Just, a name that pleased him so much that he set aside his bastard surname and took Justman as the name of his house. As wise as he was stern, he reigned for three-and-twenty years, extending his domains as far as Maidenpool and the Neck. His son, another Benedict, reigned for sixty years and added Duskendale, Rosby, and the mouth of the Blackwater to the river realm.

 

 

Another period of anarchy and bloodshed followed. The realm that Benedict the Bold had knitted together was torn asunder once again, and a hundred years of conflict saw petty kings from the Houses Blackwood, Bracken, Vance, Mallister, and Charlton contending with one another for supremacy.
The unlikely victor in these struggles was Lord Torrence Teague, an adventurer of uncertain birth who seized a fortune in gold in a daring attack upon the westerlands and used the wealth to bring sellswords across the narrow sea in great numbers. Seasoned warriors all, their blades proved the difference, and Teague was crowned King of the Trident at Maidenpool after six long years of war.

 

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 Yes, like I said, there were several instances in which the kingdoms/great houses intermarried, but never multiple houses at the same time like we saw before RR. And we don't even know if the Lannisters who married Baratheons were from the ruling Lannisters. Tya, for one, is not connected to the main branch as far as we can tell.

 

Never the circumstances were like that, never the Great Lords had known each other as much, almost all if not all the Great lords at the time fought in the Stepstones, that grew into a sort of friendship or camaraderie and that gave place to marriage proposals.

 

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 Love had little to do with medieval marriages. Rickard would not agree to the match unless it provided a political gain.

Love was the reason why Robert sought Lyanna's hand, there is no reason why Rickard would reject one of the most powerful men in the Realm.

 

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 Open your eyes, man. Tourneys were used by unhappy lords as cover to plot rebellions, just like in The Mystery Knight. Aerys knows this, and he is suspicious of Rhaegar, Tywin and all the other lords of conspiring against him.

 

Some tourneys were true, just as some dinners were. Now Aerys only really fears Rhaegar and Tywin, they are the only ones who constantly mentions or we're told he was afraid of.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, the Dornish army that was coming up the kingsroad before Rhaegar had even returned to the capital. Aerys summoned the Dornish and Aerys made Lewyn its commander before Rhaegar was even on the scene. And even after Rhaegar returned he only "persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father." Rhaegar did not order this, did not command this, because Aerys is in complete charge here, not Rhaegar. The Tyrells fought the Battle of Ashford and marched on Storm's End when Rhaegar was still awol. So who else but Aerys could have given those orders? Right, Selmy and Darry, not JonCon. JonCon had already been appointed as hand and dismissed, by Aerys, not Rhaegar. So please, tell me how is Aerys a prisoner in the Red Keep, unable to issue commands and direct the affairs of the realm, either before or during the war? Even after Duskendale, Aerys

•   summoned Steffon Baratheon to court and appointed him to the small council
•  dispatched Steffon to Volantis to find a bride for Rhaegar
•  brought Varys to court and made him Master of Whispers
•  betrothed Rhaegar to Elia Martell
•  refused to attend the wedding and forbade Viserys to attend as well
•  began executing traitors with wildfire instead of hanging
•  appointed Rossart to the small council
•  appointed Jaime to the kingsguard
• could have refused Tywin's offer of resignation but didn't
•  appointed Owen Merryweather as Hand after Tywin's departure

So sorry pal, but your head canon has run amok here. Aerys was in full command from the moment he donned the crown to the moment Jaime killed him.

We're not told that Aerys summoned the Dornish, we're just told that they were coming for Elia, i think that the Tyrells dis it by themselves, i don't know why you keep bringing Rhaegar.

I'm talking about Aerys i ¡n relation with his most distant vassals. Now, i'm not the one saying that he seemed a prisoner in his own castle.

 

Once safely returned to King’s Landing, His Grace refused to leave the Red Keep for any cause and remained a virtual prisoner in his own castle for the next four years, during which time he grew ever more wary of those around him, Tywin Lannister in particular. His suspicions extended even to his own son and heir. Prince Rhaegar, he was convinced, had conspired with Tywin Lannister to have him slain at Duskendale.

 

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Even princesses of Dorne are not at liberty to choose their own spouses nor reject a marriage that has been arranged by their parents. If Elia's mother and Lord Hightower wanted her to marry Baelon, that's what would have happened, whether Elia loved him or not. Just like Arianne would have married Viserys no matter her feelings. This was a fishing trip, and more than likely it was the Hightowers who rejected the idea, not the Martells.

 

Because no matche was made?? They were still suitors and as such, it was Elia's decision picking between them, h wanted to pick Baelor but she ended up not choosing him.

 

 

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 Outside of the Targeryens (who are recent immigrants to Westeros), I can think of one marriage between a Dornish house and a non-Dornish House: Sylvia Santager who was force-married to 70-year-old Eldon Estermont as punishment for her role in the Mycella caper. This is very unlikely to produce any children, and the heirs to the castle already run two generations deep. The only other matches that comes close is Allyria Dayne who was promised to Beric Dondarrion but never married. And then, of course, Myrcella, which isn't likely to happen either and was only agreed to out of desperation. So spare me all this talk about how all the other houses are clamoring to add Dornish blood, even that of the ruling family, to their lines. Look at the Martell line, which is chock full of brides from Essos -- because nobody outside of Dorne or House Targaryen wants anything to do with them.

 

The Dornish were the enemy for more than 180 years, after that came adaptation and now people don't give a dam, as we see in Elia being free to pick between suitors. The idea of Westeros at whole hating Dorne is just a very weird headcanon.

 

 

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 It's not me saying this. It's Martin. Take your argument up with him.

 

 

It is solely you saying this.

 

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 The Starks, Lannisters, Arryns and Baratheons have been in full control of their lands for thousands of years, and the Tullys for 300. Why does it only make sense to start uniting all of their houses now? If you look at history, the reason is clear: the dragons are gone so the Targs are now dependent on the houses for support; Aegon V pissed off the great lords with his land and justice reforms to protect the smallfolk; and now Aerys is acting increasingly unstable and autocratic. So for virtually the entire lives of all these great lords, Targaryen rule is becoming increasingly burdensome even as Targaryen power is on the wane. Best thing for the future? Form up now so they can respond as one when the inevitable war comes.

 

For the Tullys it makes perfect sense because they were traditionally in good graces with the Crown, until Aegon 5 fucked everything up, now Hoster is not only dealing with bannermen more powerful than him but with bannermen more powerful than him... with ties with the crown. 

The Lannisters were not in full control of his lands during Tytos's years and Tywin is obsessed with making his house as powerful as possible , the Arryns  did not marry anyone and the Starks wanted to marry their neighbours. Robert just felt like it.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

There is simply no mention in the histories that we know of, and the World Book gives us all the key events in the Reach and all the warfare that has befallen other realsm, that even hints that any of their lands were ever occupied for any length of time, other than the one time I mentioned. Not once in a land that is literally wide open to invasion from all sides. If you want to argue that the Reach has been warred over for eons just like the stormlands, riverlands and elsewhere, give us something, anything, to support it. Otherwise, this idea is a non-starter.

 

Except that it doesn't, that's the point. It never hints anything, it's just your believe it does.

 

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 How can you possibly argue that "there is no problem" between House Lannister and House Tyrell when House Tyrell is murdering members of House Lannister? Obviously there is a problem. You've settled on the thoroughly disproven theory that the Tyrells were afraid for Margaery's safety when all the facts point to threat posed by Tywin's ascendant power. This is the real threat to Highgarden and all of House Tyrell, not whether Joffrey will give Margaery a few bruises and a black eye. Plenty of queens have suffered far worse for their crowns. And if and when Joffrey does become a problem, they can get rid of him at any time and with far less risk to themselves, and then Margaery rules outright as Queen Regent until her son comes of age.

 

Disproven... By whom??

There is no problem between the Lannisters and Tyrells, only a psychotic kid who is a problem to everyone, they are perfectly fine with Tommen. They don't want ant bruises or black eyes for Margaery. 

 

 

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

All of this represents income to whichever lord controls it. The life of a lord, great or small, is devoted to expanding his wealth and domains at the expense of those around him. The border between the westerlands and the Reach is ripe for this kind of grasping, and with the Lannisters controlling well more than half the kingdom, there is no way to stop them from taking piece after piece after piece, either by legal writ or armed conflict. Tywin only needs the Reach until Stannis is defeated and the realm is once again brought under the king's peace. Then he becomes the most powerful lord with the most holdings and the largest army, and his grandson on the throne. He will be unstoppable, and of all the Tyrells, Lady Olenna is wise enough to see this.

 Lady Olenna agreed to both marriages: Renly and Joffrey. We can spot her lies from a mile away. She lies about virtually everything in this conversation, and pretty much every conversation that we see of hers. She did not break off her engagement to the Targaryen prince, the Targaryen prince did; Lord Luthor's horse did not just ride off a cliff, horses don't do that; Mace did not broker the alliance and marriage, she did while Mace blustered and bloviated; she knows exactly what kind of person Joffrey is and that, despicable as he is, he poses absolutely no threat to Margaery. If she does not know all of the things that Sansa "reveals" to her in this conversation, she is literally the last person in Westeros still in the dark about him. I'll bet she even knows exactly what a puff fish is called. She also knows full well that Tyrion is not going to lead great hosts to war; she knows exactly where the smell in the sept was coming from . . . She is not an idiot. She does this to get people off their guard so she can gauge their character, and at the same time she can blame whatever failure she creates on Mace. 

Headcanon.

[John Suburbs]

On 2/28/2020 at 11:20 PM, frenin said:

Except he didn't, do you have any quote, we simply don't know when he started calling the banners and what troops did he asked for.

 

No, you didn't you just showed me the opinion of its inhabitants and took for a fact that they never lost lands and so, even when we know they were beaten like any mortal men.

 

 

 

Massey’s Hook was part of their realm then, and all the kingswood as far as the Blackwater Rush. In certain epochs, the Storm Kings even ruled beyond the Blackwater. Towns as far-flung as Duskendale and Maidenpool once paid homage to Storm’s End, and under the redoubtable warrior king Arlan III Durrandon, the stormlanders took dominion over the entire riverlands. They held them for more than three centuries.

 

The first of the Andal kings to bring all the riverlands under his sway was a bastard born of a tryst between two ancient enemies, the Blackwoods and the Brackens. As a boy, he was Benedict Rivers, despised by all, but he grew to be the greatest warrior of his age, Ser Benedict the Bold. His prowess in battle won him the support of both his mother’s house and his father’s, and soon other riverlords bent their knees to him as well. It required more than thirty years for Benedict to throw down the last of the petty kings of the Trident. Only when the last had yielded did he don a crown himself.
As king, he became known as Benedict the Just, a name that pleased him so much that he set aside his bastard surname and took Justman as the name of his house. As wise as he was stern, he reigned for three-and-twenty years, extending his domains as far as Maidenpool and the Neck. His son, another Benedict, reigned for sixty years and added Duskendale, Rosby, and the mouth of the Blackwater to the river realm.

 

 

Another period of anarchy and bloodshed followed. The realm that Benedict the Bold had knitted together was torn asunder once again, and a hundred years of conflict saw petty kings from the Houses Blackwood, Bracken, Vance, Mallister, and Charlton contending with one another for supremacy.
The unlikely victor in these struggles was Lord Torrence Teague, an adventurer of uncertain birth who seized a fortune in gold in a daring attack upon the westerlands and used the wealth to bring sellswords across the narrow sea in great numbers. Seasoned warriors all, their blades proved the difference, and Teague was crowned King of the Trident at Maidenpool after six long years of war.

 

Never the circumstances were like that, never the Great Lords had known each other as much, almost all if not all the Great lords at the time fought in the Stepstones, that grew into a sort of friendship or camaraderie and that gave place to marriage proposals.

 

Love was the reason why Robert sought Lyanna's hand, there is no reason why Rickard would reject one of the most powerful men in the Realm.

 

Some tourneys were true, just as some dinners were. Now Aerys only really fears Rhaegar and Tywin, they are the only ones who constantly mentions or we're told he was afraid of.

 

 

 

We're not told that Aerys summoned the Dornish, we're just told that they were coming for Elia, i think that the Tyrells dis it by themselves, i don't know why you keep bringing Rhaegar.

I'm talking about Aerys i ¡n relation with his most distant vassals. Now, i'm not the one saying that he seemed a prisoner in his own castle.

 

Once safely returned to King’s Landing, His Grace refused to leave the Red Keep for any cause and remained a virtual prisoner in his own castle for the next four years, during which time he grew ever more wary of those around him, Tywin Lannister in particular. His suspicions extended even to his own son and heir. Prince Rhaegar, he was convinced, had conspired with Tywin Lannister to have him slain at Duskendale.

 

Because no matche was made?? They were still suitors and as such, it was Elia's decision picking between them, h wanted to pick Baelor but she ended up not choosing him.

 

 

The Dornish were the enemy for more than 180 years, after that came adaptation and now people don't give a dam, as we see in Elia being free to pick between suitors. The idea of Westeros at whole hating Dorne is just a very weird headcanon.

 

 

 

It is solely you saying this.

 

For the Tullys it makes perfect sense because they were traditionally in good graces with the Crown, until Aegon 5 fucked everything up, now Hoster is not only dealing with bannermen more powerful than him but with bannermen more powerful than him... with ties with the crown. 

The Lannisters were not in full control of his lands during Tytos's years and Tywin is obsessed with making his house as powerful as possible , the Arryns  did not marry anyone and the Starks wanted to marry their neighbours. Robert just felt like it.

 

 

 

Except that it doesn't, that's the point. It never hints anything, it's just your believe it does.

 

Disproven... By whom??

There is no problem between the Lannisters and Tyrells, only a psychotic kid who is a problem to everyone, they are perfectly fine with Tommen. They don't want ant bruises or black eyes for Margaery. 

 

 

Headcanon.

Sorry friend, when your theories run counter to text, counter to the characterizations in the book, counter to common sense, it's up to you to offer the proof. Tywin is not an idiot; that is a fact. When other lords are calling their banners, so is he. When the World Book lists countless invasions and warfare of other realms but not the Reach, then there was nothing of this sort in the Reach, and you have to show something, anything, to alter this fact.

Have you even read the quotes you provided? Massey's Hook, Blackwater Rush, Maidenpool, Duskendale the Neck -- all on the eastern half of the Riverlands. The western part out to the Red Fork is still a no-man's land. Show me something that has the Durrandons or any others you mentioned taking Riverrun, Acorn Hall, Pinkmaiden and Stony Sept and then you'll have something. Even your vaulted "King of the Trident" -- the small area at the confluence of the red, green and blue forks. Hardly the ruler of all the riverlands.

The entire riverlands as it is known today was not taken until the Hoares figured out that in order to control the riverlands you had to control the rivers -- and even then it required constant warfare to hold it.

The great lords and the kings before them fought and allied, traded and bartered for thousands of years before Robert's Rebellion. But yes, never were the circumstances necessary for them to intermarry, until now. And this is precisely why the Tyrells are so concerned about it, because it upends thousands of years of status quo that has lifted them above all other houses. Sorry that you can't see this basic fact in the books, but this is the way it is, and it is the undercurrent driving pretty much everything that has happened so far.

Sigh, highborn marriages are always made for political considerations first, economic ones second and so on. Love is very far down the list. Ned did not love Cat and Cat did not love Ned. Margaery did not love Joffrey, although Joffrey is smitten with Margy, Lysa did not love Jon and Jon probably did not love her all that much, Robert did not love Cersei, fArya does not love Ramsay and Ramsay does not love fArya . . . Practically any marriage you care to name, with the possible exception of Tywin and Joanna (in which Tywin was free to make his own decision) was made for duty, not love. Whenever love is the reason, as in a number of Targ marriages (usually done against their parents wishes) the consequences are far-reaching and severe. So the idea that Rickard would hand off his only daughter just because her suitor loved her is ludicrous and flies in the face of all text, particularly since Lyanna most certainly did not love Robert. Tell me, if Robert was not the Lord of Storm's End and instead was some crofter's get, would Rickard still have given her hand just because he loved her?

Once again, no, these are not the only people he is afraid of:

Quote

Above all, King Aerys II was suspicious of his own son and heir, Prince Rhaegar; suspicious of his host, Lord Whent; suspicious of every lord and knight who had come to Harrenhal to compete . . . and even more suspicious of those who chose to absent themselves, the most notable of whom was his former Hand, Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock.

Sure, Rhaegar and Tywin are tops on the list, naturally, but he fears treason by everyone, not just them.

So Doran Martell suddenly marches 10,000 men up the boneway into the crownlands toward King's Landing, without the king's leave, all when armies are fighting across the land, and paranoid, suspicious Aerys is not the least bit concerned by this? I think you need to read up on how medieval societies work. Nobody is allowed to march soldiers across anyone else's land without their leave. Doing so is an act of war. There is absolutely no way you can spin this as Aerys had nothing to do with this Dornish army suddenly appearing at his doorstep simply because the histories don't specifically say Aerys summoned then, any more than you can assume the sky is yellow just because the text doesn't specifically say it is blue. The Dornish would not be in the crownlands without the king's permission. Case closed.

A "virtual prisoner" because he is the one who is imprisoning himself. But this in no way, shape or form means that he can no longer direct the affairs of the realm. I've already given you dozens of examples of him doing exactly that.

So you are saying that the only reason Elia married Rhaegar is because she decided she wanted to marry the crown prince? Doran, Rhaegar and least of all Aerys had absolutely no say in the matter, or that if she did not want to marry Rhaegar it would not have happened? Sorry pal, but you are way off the deep end on this one.

I've already given you all the book canon as to why the Dornish are loathed in the realm and all the trouble their presence in King's Landing brought, right up to the launching of the Blackfyre Rebellion and the fact that no Dornish blood exists outside of Dorne. So like I said, take your complaints to Martin because this is the way he wrote it.

All of the great houses were in good graces with the crown since the Third BF Rebellion in 220. Things started to go south with Aegon V's legal reforms and his children's broken betrothals some 20 or 30 years later. The Lannisters had one minor rebellion in the past century, and it was quickly put down. Every lord in the realm has had to march against truculent vassals at one time or another. To spin this into saying the Lannisters were not in control of their lands is silly.

The balance of power and the Reach's hegemony is not even a hint. It is a basic, fundamental fact that is laid out clearly and plainly in the text. The Reach has always had the largest population and the largest army, provided their political situation is stable. Tywin Lannister had extended his hold over more than half the kingdom. He is a serious threat to anyone who opposes him, since he does not play by the rules of chivalry and honest warfare that were basically founded in the Reach. These are all facts -- incontrovertible, unambiguous facts -- right there on the page for all to see. Good writing is about showing, not telling. If you have to be told that all of this is so, well then sorry, you're just going to have to wait.

Disproven by the text. All the facts clearly show that there was no poison in the wine and that neither Littlefinger nor the Tyrells had any reason to kill Joffrey and every reason to keep him alive, for the time being. Again, if you need to be told this, you'll just have to wait.

Bruises and black eyes for Margaery are a greater concern to Lady Olenna than her lands destroyed, he entire family murdered, her castle razed to the ground and House Tyrell extinguished for all time. Good luck with that.

[frenin]

52 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry friend, when your theories run counter to text, counter to the characterizations in the book, counter to common sense, it's up to you to offer the proof. Tywin is not an idiot; that is a fact. When other lords are calling their banners, so is he. When the World Book lists countless invasions and warfare of other realms but not the Reach, then there was nothing of this sort in the Reach, and you have to show something, anything, to alter this fact.

 

If the war is not to touch his lands, there is no reason whatsoever for him ot call his banners, i'm tired of your facts, they are unproven always.  So, you make a point you can't prove, Tywin had called his banners from the get go, I say that we don't know it since the book never tells us when he called his banners. And we're told that there were countless warfare in the Reach.

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 Have you even read the quotes you provided? Massey's Hook, Blackwater Rush, Maidenpool, Duskendale the Neck -- all on the eastern half of the Riverlands. The western part out to the Red Fork is still a no-man's land. Show me something that has the Durrandons or any others you mentioned taking Riverrun, Acorn Hall, Pinkmaiden and Stony Sept and then you'll have something. Even your vaulted "King of the Trident" -- the small area at the confluence of the red, green and blue forks. Hardly the ruler of all the riverlands.

 

Yes i did but i'm pretty sure you didn't.

 

Quote

and under the redoubtable warrior king Arlan III Durrandon, the stormlanders took dominion over the entire riverlands.

The first of the Andal kings to bring all the riverlands under his sway was a bastard born of a tryst between two ancient enemies, the Blackwoods and the Brackens. As a boy, he was Benedict Rivers,

Teague was crowned King of the Trident at Maidenpool after six long years of war.

Tell me truly, what do you think all the Riverlands or the entire Riverlands stands for?? 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 The great lords and the kings before them fought and allied, traded and bartered for thousands of years before Robert's Rebellion. But yes, never were the circumstances necessary for them to intermarry, until now. And this is precisely why the Tyrells are so concerned about it, because it upends thousands of years of status quo that has lifted them above all other houses. Sorry that you can't see this basic fact in the books, but this is the way it is, and it is the undercurrent driving pretty much everything that has happened so far.

 

I could see this basic fact if you had some quote to back it up, i know you don't.

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 Sigh, highborn marriages are always made for political considerations first, economic ones second and so on. Love is very far down the list. Ned did not love Cat and Cat did not love Ned. Margaery did not love Joffrey, although Joffrey is smitten with Margy, Lysa did not love Jon and Jon probably did not love her all that much, Robert did not love Cersei, fArya does not love Ramsay and Ramsay does not love fArya . . . Practically any marriage you care to name, with the possible exception of Tywin and Joanna (in which Tywin was free to make his own decision) was made for duty, not love. Whenever love is the reason, as in a number of Targ marriages (usually done against their parents wishes) the consequences are far-reaching and severe. So the idea that Rickard would hand off his only daughter just because her suitor loved her is ludicrous and flies in the face of all text, particularly since Lyanna most certainly did not love Robert. Tell me, if Robert was not the Lord of Storm's End and instead was some crofter's get, would Rickard still have given her hand just because he loved her?

 

When you don't want to understand something you really make your way to prove it.

Robert sought Lyanna's hand because he was in love with her, he didn't do it because it was a great poliical move, now with that in mind there is no reason for why Rickard refused to marry her to the lord of Storm's End.

I'm pretty sure that if Tywin wasn't the Lord of Casterly Rock but were instead some crofter's get, he wouldn't have married Joanna either. Your point is irrelevant, Robert was not moved by any ambitionwhatsoever, that's a fact.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Once again, no, these are not the only people he is afraid of:

Quote

Above all, King Aerys II was suspicious of his own son and heir, Prince Rhaegar; suspicious of his host, Lord Whent; suspicious of every lord and knight who had come to Harrenhal to compete . . . and even more suspicious of those who chose to absent themselves, the most notable of whom was his former Hand, Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock.

Sure, Rhaegar and Tywin are tops on the list, naturally, but he fears treason by everyone, not just them.

they are the only ones who constantly mentions or we're told he was afraid of. He was also afraid of his smallfolk. What we're never told is that he feared any alliance in particular.

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 So Doran Martell suddenly marches 10,000 men up the boneway into the crownlands toward King's Landing, without the king's leave, all when armies are fighting across the land, and paranoid, suspicious Aerys is not the least bit concerned by this? I think you need to read up on how medieval societies work. Nobody is allowed to march soldiers across anyone else's land without their leave. Doing so is an act of war. There is absolutely no way you can spin this as Aerys had nothing to do with this Dornish army suddenly appearing at his doorstep simply because the histories don't specifically say Aerys summoned then, any more than you can assume the sky is yellow just because the text doesn't specifically say it is blue. The Dornish would not be in the crownlands without the king's permission. Case closed.

 

Doran suddenly marches 10k men up the Boneway to protect Elia... And Aerys forces Lewyn to take command over them and reminds him Elia is his hostage. Doing so it's an act of war... Gee, it's not like there wasn't one being fought right?? You saying case closed to validate your point, besides being funny, does not make it so.

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 A "virtual prisoner" because he is the one who is imprisoning himself. But this in no way, shape or form means that he can no longer direct the affairs of the realm. I've already given you dozens of examples of him doing exactly that.

You know what i said, you're arguing your own straw man, ofc he's a virtual prisoner because he is the one imprisoning himself.

I said that his rulings would not get as far as place like the North or Dorne and they didn't. Those places remained as isolated as always.

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 So you are saying that the only reason Elia married Rhaegar is because she decided she wanted to marry the crown prince? Doran, Rhaegar and least of all Aerys had absolutely no say in the matter, or that if she did not want to marry Rhaegar it would not have happened? Sorry pal, but you are way off the deep end on this one.

 

Are you purposefully confusing "suitor" with "bethrothal"??  Really?? 

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 I've already given you all the book canon as to why the Dornish are loathed in the realm and all the trouble their presence in King's Landing brought, right up to the launching of the Blackfyre Rebellion and the fact that no Dornish blood exists outside of Dorne. So like I said, take your complaints to Martin because this is the way he wrote it.

 

No, you haven't lmao. Because last time i checked the marcher lords of  90 years ago =/ the whole realm 16 years ago. No Dornish blood exits outside of Dorne because  Dorne was an is a very isolated place that usually is only to itself.

I don't need to complain to Martin, you're arguing in bad faith as usual.

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 All of the great houses were in good graces with the crown since the Third BF Rebellion in 220. Things started to go south with Aegon V's legal reforms and his children's broken betrothals some 20 or 30 years later. The Lannisters had one minor rebellion in the past century, and it was quickly put down. Every lord in the realm has had to march against truculent vassals at one time or another. To spin this into saying the Lannisters were not in control of their lands is silly.

Not all, the Starks for example didn't really give a damn about them but at least they did not hate them as prior the Dance, we're never told the Great House's stance during Egg's war, the fact that some of them were willing to look the other way in exchange of bethrothals and Tytos sent his heir to the Red Keep implies that most of them weren't opposing the crown. The Lannisters lived in a literal anarchy for more than a decade, to recover fom it it would've taken some time.

Can you tell me about another land that was a complete anarchy and even then its liege still were in full control?? Egg himself comanded Tytos to deal with the Reynes, Tytos sent his father in law and the Reynes killed him and got away with it.

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

The balance of power and the Reach's hegemony is not even a hint. It is a basic, fundamental fact that is laid out clearly and plainly in the text. The Reach has always had the largest population and the largest army, provided their political situation is stable. Tywin Lannister had extended his hold over more than half the kingdom. He is a serious threat to anyone who opposes him, since he does not play by the rules of chivalry and honest warfare that were basically founded in the Reach. These are all facts -- incontrovertible, unambiguous facts -- right there on the page for all to see. Good writing is about showing, not telling. If you have to be told that all of this is so, well then sorry, you're just going to have to wait.

 Disproven by the text. All the facts clearly show that there was no poison in the wine and that neither Littlefinger nor the Tyrells had any reason to kill Joffrey and every reason to keep him alive, for the time being. Again, if you need to be told this, you'll just have to wait.

Bruises and black eyes for Margaery are a greater concern to Lady Olenna than her lands destroyed, he entire family murdered, her castle razed to the ground and House Tyrell extinguished for all time. Good luck with that.

More headcanon

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, frenin said:

snip

Well, it's been nice chatting with you Fren. I think that before the story is done, you'll find that there are three kinds of readers of aSoIaF: those that can see what is happening, those who have to be told what is happening, and those who scratch their heads and say "what's happening?"

At least I've given you the facts as they are, so when you are finally told that this is what's happening you'll have a frame of understanding to overcome your confusion. Your welcome.